Can MMA be too broad?

[Ray Pina]

The reason I ask is, I've been playing with some MMA and I don't find their Tai kicking to be "dangerous", meaning, I can afford one or two and do so willingly to step inside and get positioning.

Yet I see video of straight Tai boxers, and one kick from some of these guys look like they can destroy a man.

Now, I understand I'm only playing with ametuers, not pros and my test is limited to the few people I have played with.

But in general, do you think if you have to split the training up into three different disciplines -- a stand up game, a ground game, a kicking game -- that an edge can be missing from some of the weapons?

Or would it be better to train principles that carry over to all ranges?

Personally, I like to train a basic principle, a "way of doing things" but then training that principle in all ranges. For example, I'm working on my ground game now and playing with wrestlers, BJJ and some Judo guys, but I am not studying their arts. I'm trying my best to mold mine to handle their expertise.

I'm taking off tonight for a surfing/fishing trip, but look forward to hearing everyone's input on Monday.

Happy/safe weekend all.
Ray

[Water Dragon]

You should read the part about learnbing BEFORE you incorporate Ray (http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=ListMessages&PID=1&TID=1293&FID=23&p=9)

I don't feel that boxing hinders your Muay Thai skills at all. But this may have to do with the circumstances under which I learned to box.
I learned Muay Thai first. Then I learned to box. Even though I was training to actually fight as a boxer, I realized that at heart, I was a Thai boxer and was mainly learning Western Boxing to complement my Muay Thai. Therefore, I always trained a little differently, I guess.

Sure, I learned how to box correctly, using head motion and footwork and all that, but again, I kept my Muay Thai training in mind, and I modified the boxing technique to complement my Thai boxing.

Also, look at all the numbers of Thai boxers who move on to Western Boxing. Many Thais use Muay Thai as a springboard into the world of Western Boxing, because the that's where the money is really at. Samart, Samsun Eisan, Nanfah, Gansak... These were all top-notch Muay Thai fighters who also excelled in the world of Western Boxing.

As much as I hate to quote Bruce Lee (let the man rest, already!) "Take what is useful". You have to realize what it is you are trying to do, and use what will help that game. If your goal is to be a better Thai boxer, then concentrate learning the boxing skills that will help out your Muay Thai game.

I will have to say this though. This is a common mistake that I find that many people make. When I went to learn boxing, I went and learned boxing. I concentrated on absorbing EVERYTHING that I was taught with no thought as to what I was trying to get out of boxing in the long run. I didn't turn my nose up at head motion drills because of their high risk in the game of Muay Thai. I did as I was told and learned my head motions. I learned as best as I could everything that I was being taught.

Then, AFTER I had attained some degree of proficiency in these new techniques, I decided which parts I preferred vs. those I did not.

I see too many people who try and learn only parts of an art because of preconceived notions regarding what they think they need to know, or what they think will and will not work.

I have learned under three Muay Thai coaches, and as many Western Boxing coaches (at least). I have absorbed as much as I could from these instructors. Though I *personally* don't use everything that I was taught, I make a concerted effort to teach all of the techniques I've learned. Just because I don't use a technique doesn't mean another student won't.

There are certain techniques/strategies that I don't use in my own personal fighting game, whether its just something I don't like or something I just can't do well. But, that doesn't mean one of my students won't like it or be able to make it work.

I try to teach my students everything that I've learned and let them find their own way. But then, this is why Master K chose me to take over his Northern VA classes. He knows that I don't fight anything like him. But he knows that I learned to do everything HIS way first, BEFORE I made changes to the way I used techniques.

It's late, I'm babbling again. I'm going back to polishing my rocket now.

Khun Kao

[backbreaker]

I don't know, too broad a question for the likes of me anyways, and I am not a trainer. But I have the exact experience where, with some people I can just lean in and clinch, other people smack me for it, and there's no way I wouldn't pay for it against a fighter form thailand

[Ray Pina]

Great feedback WD,

So, these guys, when they tell me they train MMA and know Tai Boxing, are they studying the style in its entirety? Or are they just taking the round house kick, knees and elbows?

Not saying that's not enough. But I'm wondering if there's some drills or leg conditioning that a traditional Muay Tai boxers undures that say a "MMA" endures (sure this varies from school to school, too)

What got me thinking about his is that I think it relates to another subject in the Kung Fu community. A lot of guys feel a need to learn 18! weapons ... personally, I'm training 100% for H2H right now, and still don't have enough time, fall short, ect... I couldn't imagine getting to where I want to be as a fighter if I was also worried about the Kwon Dao, three-sectional staff, chain wip, doa, gim, tiger forks, flying guilletien, ect.

[Unmatchable]

that same analogy can be applied to forms and kung fu. There is alot of wealth in forms and conditioning alone unique to cma and many people don't realize it because they don't see it. That's why there are so many forms to suit many different people.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist

So, these guys, when they tell me they train MMA and know Tai Boxing, are they studying the style in its entirety? Or are they just taking the round house kick, knees and elbows?

that will depend on where you train, and who you are training under. I train three styles under four different coaches - each trains only in their art. So, I learn thai from a thai boxer, bjj from bjj purple belts, judo from judoka.

Some people who crosstrain are "taking what is useful" to them, and yes, that may be - the kick, takedown defenses, a few throws, etc.

Not saying that's not enough. But I'm wondering if there's some drills or leg conditioning that a traditional Muay Tai boxers undures that say a "MMA" endures (sure this varies from school to school, too)

nah. It's likely an issue of form. We've got a few threads going about the thai kick here on the main forum - read them, and then watch the guy in question kick.

[Toby]

Originally posted by Water Dragon

It's late, I'm babbling again. I'm going back to polishing my rocket now.

Khun Kao

Wft?! Great, informative discussion then he follows up with that?

[Water Dragon]

It's called humility my friend.

[Toby]

OK. Just thought it a bit weird in the context of the info he posted. He was all serious with lots of good stuff, then suddenly "I'm off for a wank".

[ShaolinTiger00]

even with practical things, it still takes time..

[stimulant]

....you could say northern styles are too broad with many of them having a huge sylabus...

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by stimulant
....you could say northern styles are too broad with many of them having a huge sylabus... Choy Li Fut has, what, something like 120 forms spread across three lineages? I don't think it's a purely Northern issue. Even Songshan Shaolin, with it's 200+ forms, generally only gives each student 10-15 forms to work with, and they only specialize in one or two of those.

Even though larger systems have all those sets, most people only learned a few of them, and it was probably enough.

Forms collecting I think is modern placebo for people who are unwilling to test their skill, so they comfort themselves by absorbing as much kung fu material as possible, like a perrinneal post-graduate student who never leaves college because life in the real world scares him.

[red5angel]

I think there are a lot of variables in why something may seem less then what it should be. As you say e-fist, the people you play with are amateurs, taht could explain all of it right there.
I think that the idea that MMA is too broad is an incorrect perception though. There are arts out there that teach all those ranges over time and seem to do ok at it. It could possibly be that the MMA phenomena could be too new, and that the training techniques are still being smoothed out.
I certainly don't feel that there is too much to learn. Most people tend to focus on certain things, and still others just seem to do things better then they do others. I spend al ot of time learning how to kick better, but I still punch better then I kick.

[Ray Pina]

Thanks all. I agree with all of you, just wanted to put that out there.

SevenStar, that's a great training regiment you have going on there ... going to pros for the individual skills.

Anyway, fishing was great. Caught about 30 trout on fly with many of them in the 3lbs category:)

[Merryprankster]

going to pros for the individual skills.

I think this is precisely what defines the MMA community. Most places that teach "MMA" have an array of instructors, each with a specialty. You go to that expert for what you are looking for.

There is a willingness to say "I don't really know, ask him/her."

Contrast this with people who say "My art has all of that." Well....sort of. More often than not they are missing HUGE chunks of information.

My example is the difference between a shot and the drunken frat boy tackle. There is a real difference in gross motor movements, to say nothing of the, but I've seen, all to often the frat boy tackle called a "shot" from people who claim to have it all.