dim mak

[SevenStar]

"To effectively use Bil Jee one must have constant practice of the Bil Jee form for five years. This consists of four hours training a day along with study of the 30 pressure points, that includes: 10 on the front of the body, 12 on the back, and 8 on the arms (4 inside the arms and 4 outside of the arm). The practitioners must know the organs and bowels meridians and how the blood affects the body according to the seasons, days and time. In this modem time, it's good to have the knowledge of Wing Chun's Deadly Art of Thrusting Fingers, however, you cannot kill your opponent"


I pulled this off of some website I came across. Can anyone hears who trains dim mak techniques confirm that this is how it's trained? If so, have you gone through it?

[blooming lotus]

when I'm training dim mak, I normally first study 2 or 3 or 4 meridians..by that I mean read the chart, corresponding effects and whter it's effect is on air, blood or muscle,bone, direct organ etc...this could take anything up to a couple of hours....after that ..or sometime in the nxt several hours I drill different combos from different styles to activate different points in different situations....then as I pick up new forms andstyles, I apply it to that....

with alot of points, time isn't so crucial, ( and your charts will tell you which these are) but with some time of day can mean the difference between draining or incapacitating an opponent completely and restoring his health to full..........

where possible, I also like to demo on myself for validation, angle (which totally changes the strike and corresponding effect ) and for the sake of accuracy (often extremely important). you can do this with some points and experience different sensations from physical to electrical

[Nick Forrer]

A question like this was asked on the WC forum recently

Just to be clear- my wing chun makes no mention/use of meridians, chi, deadly techniques or any thing like that. Some peoples might but everything in mine can be explained using basic physical and biomechanical principles.

On the Bil Gee form- as i understand it this is not a deadly form- but a collection of emergency techniques designed to either get you out of a tight spot or to help you minimise your loses if you are loosing a fight. For example

- how to block with one arm if your other arm is injured
- how to escape from a double wrist grab.
- how to get up from the floor if you have been knocked down without exposing your head to attack in the process
- how to escape if you have been pinned up against as wall via your elbow
- how to use someone as a shield against multiple attackers
-how to convert a kick into a sweep if your kick has been blocked and someone is closing in on you.

Its true that there is a greater emphasis on finger strikes- but these are aimed at soft parts of the body like the eyes and throat so i dont see the need to 'condition' them as such.

Hope this helps

[fa_jing]

AFAIK, Willam Cheung says there's Dim Mak in Wing Chun, and everybody else says that there's no Dim Mak in Wing Chun

[kungfu cowboy]

Nobody understood why he was Dim Mak. The rest of his family were geniuses!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

As i understand it, Dim Mak is just an expansion on Accupuncture/accupressure theories.. it makes sense.. but, in the fast, fluid and dynamic conditions of a fight, it is very difficult to execute such precision Dim Mak movements as to be highly effective.. i use and teach pressure point control for enhancing Qinna.. and, i demonstrate the application of focused strikes to the liver and spleen gates, relatively simple applications with good results.. beyond that, the effort and attention required to effectively utilize Dim Mak will usually distract you from more pressing issues (like the fury of an attacker)..

Dim Mak has sound theory behind it but is mostly too detail oriented to be first-choice responses to a street encounter.. some highly trained people "may" be able to effectively use it, but i see it as only one of many weapons for the well-rounded CMA practitioner.. to focus on that alone doesn't seem wise, to me..

Be well..

[David Jamieson]

There are very very few martial artists who can effectively use finger strikes.

consider that the monk hai deng was probably the onlt recent example of someone who had mastered the one finger zen and teh amount of compression to achieve the rigidity he could achieve with his fingers was truly astonishing. i.e 1 finger handstand against a wall!

anyway, that's the kind of skill you would need to effectively use strong and forceful thrusting fingers.

who these days has that ability? well, practicly no one really. sure there's a ton of guys who can use it on soft tissue but most practitioners stick to fists or palm strikes.

It does take a hella long time to develop the ability.

I don't think tehre are more than maybe a handful of people worldwide who can actively do dim mak and the number drops even further when you think about who can use it under the duress of live action fighting.

anyway, something to think about, it's not a dime store skill you can train up in a few months after all, it's one of those kungfu things that takes years and years and you could probably get more value out of learning to play the piano instead. :D

cheers

[SevenStar]

How long do you think you'd have to train in order to gain that skill?

[MasterKiller]

Personally, I think people spread dim mak stories so they wouldn't be challenged in street fights. If someone thinks you can kill them with one finger, they probably won't talk **** to you.

[Ford Prefect]

I'm moving next week and found out there is a Dillman school down the street from me. I'm tempted to stop by for some tom foolery.

[blooming lotus]

like I said..I have been raining dimmak for under a yr...and i feel confiemt enugh to hold my head my head up....

dimmak can be executed by palm, finger , halffist , seveal finger, elbow, toe, instep, ball, heel, etc and a range of many strikes from hand and toe....I don't know what n0n-practioners are preaching,but as far as i'm concernerd from gongfu city, dim mak, chin-na, is indispensensable...and there is no art equal....

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
I'm moving next week and found out there is a Dillman school down the street from me. I'm tempted to stop by for some tom foolery. Dillman does seminars in Altus, OK every year. I know a pretty no-nonsense guy who says they knocked him out for 8 seconds at a seminar by hitting three points, so I'm thinking about attending the next one to see for myself. Rich Mooney lives about 1 hour from me, so I've heard plenty of his stories but have yet to see anyone duplicate his claims.

[Ford Prefect]

Yeah, MK. That's what I was thinking. I'm about as big a skeptic as they come, and I'm certainly not going to go along with anything they try to do to me. I see two things happenning:

a) Nothing happens and they say I have very "hard to find points" or have some natural defense.

b) I get knocked out and I pee my pants.

[rubthebuddha]

ford -- you have around .2 percent body fat, right? :D if someone can't find a specific point on your body, who ARE they going to be able to find it on, kate moss?

just go, keep the "if it's hard to find on a fit guy, how can you find it on a fatty?" attitude -- and bring some extra shorts and a wetnap just in case.

[red5angel]

Dim Mak and wingchun - most chinese martial arts probably claim to have some Dim Mak in there somewhere, although you may never hear anything about it because possibly that fact may have been lost somewhere. If it has any sort of pin point, pressure point striking, its "dim mak" for the most part.
There's a lot of confusion on Bil Gee as well and you usually get about 10 different ideas on what it is or is supposed to be. The "emergency use" theory has basically been debunked. It's not for "emergencies", it's for possibly awkward situations, but you could consider it just advanced techniques like any other art. It's also been called the "deadly" form of wingchun, because you have all sorts of jabs and finger strikes, that sort of thing. If you were one to buy into the idea of dim mak as something more then pressure point attacks, you might consider it deadly, but for the most part, again, it's just advanced techniques.

I think Dim Mak is one of those much maligned, much misunderstood - even by the chinese - things you run into in the martial arts from time to time. Pressure points are certainly viable targets, and hitting some of them right can have some pretty dramatic effects on your nervous system (yep, it turns out all the really effective strikes are on sensitive parts of the biological body, like nerve clusters, sensitive organs, etc. not Qi) but along with Qi, this has unfortunately been given a more mystical background then is probably needed. Just another selling point I guess.

[Gangsterfist]

Sevenstar,

AFAIK, biu jee does not rely on dim mak, and you do not need to know dim mak to execute techniques from biu jee. Biu jee is a form made of last ditch effort techniques, not dim mak.

As for dim mak in wing chun, GM william cheung does teach it with his wing chun. Now it is my understanding it is slightly different than other dim maks. It does not preach the effects of making someone lose bowel control and certain times of the day. Its more striking meridians, vital points, etc. Like striking the xiphoid process.

Now, a lot of wing chun systems don't have anything to do with dim mak, chi, etc. However, Yip Man apparently (I have heard this from several sources) had a dim mak chart and book. He had two copies, and one ended up missing some years ago. I don't exactly know how true this is. Any type of dim mak (like striking someone in the throat, to other killing techniques) move I am not really suppose to discuss outside of the kwoon. So, unfortuneately I can only give you vague references. There are some things we do not discuss to outsiders. However, I can answer lots of basic questions for you.

[Gangsterfist]

Hey Sevenstar, could you post a link to that website?

Deadly wing chun fingers eh? I want to see how deadly those fingers really are.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Yeah, MK. That's what I was thinking. I'm about as big a skeptic as they come, and I'm certainly not going to go along with anything they try to do to me. I see two things happenning:

a) Nothing happens and they say I have very "hard to find points" or have some natural defense.

b) I get knocked out and I pee my pants.
Please go and be sure to report back when you've changed your pants.

[Gangsterfist]

The thing about dim mak and pressure/vital point fighting is that its effects are different on each person. Some people are somewhat immune to perssure points and some people get hurt from them.

One of my kung fu brothers has a huge tolerance for pressure points. I can grab his radial nerve and dig my fingers into it real hard and it barely effects him. Other people drop to the ground when it happens to them. That is why I would not rely on those type techniques. If someone is in pretty good physical shape there is a good chance they have coincidentally conditioned their body to be resistful to that type of stuff. Then again, it may work on them. It is a gamble you have to decide to take. I would rather just punch someone in the throat if I was trying to seriously hurt them, rather than use some dim mak or vital point striking technique.

[Ford Prefect]

Haha! Rub, I'm like .1% BF. Don't insult me.

I'll drop by sometime this summer and see if I can tape it (audio) digitally somehow.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Hey Sevenstar, could you post a link to that website?

Deadly wing chun fingers eh? I want to see how deadly those fingers really are.

http://www.wingchun.com/ClaytonBilJee.html

[Gangsterfist]

Well, I wish I knew what lineage that guy was who wrote the article.

Anyways, it is my perception that biu jee is more about last ditch effort techniques over deadly dim mak type techniques.

[SevenStar]

I've seen alot of links that say WC has dim mak and that the dummy and biu jee are the keys to learning it. The reason I've been looking is because BL said that ng mui created dim mak, which I don't think is true. I've been doing searches for wing chun and dim mak, and there are dozens of sites that talk about WC and dim mak. None of them say ng mui created it though...

[red5angel]

7*, like I said, most CMA conatin "dim mak" although they may not know it. Some arts have adopted it over time as a selling point. Not everyone calls it Dim Mak. WC certainly has pressure point attacks, but for the most part most WC instructors have never been taught the specifics, so usually you get a sort of generalized mumble about it being in the art, but you never get sat down and explained the actual theories and techniques.
As for Ng Mui, there's not real evidence that she even existed, much less created anything, uncluding wing chun.

[Gangsterfist]

Wing Chun has dim mak type techniques in it. However, that also depends on your definition of dim mak. If you mean striking someone 15 feet away with out touching them, then no wing chun does not have that.

As for Ng Mui, it depends on what lineage you study for the history. I look at it like I look at the bible. They are stories to teach lessons not to be taken litterally.

That is why some lineages say there are no snake and no white crane influences in wing chun, and some say that there are. Its all in the eye of the beholder I guess.

[rubthebuddha]

W.W.C.K.F.A., as noted at the bottom of sevenstar's link, is william cheung's organization.

[backbreaker]

Is it possible to use pressure points on the arm to make someone pass out, or make their arm go dead? Mabye not pass out?

[kungfu cowboy]

Is it possible to use pressure points on the arm to make someone pass gas? That would be great!

[backbreaker]

lol:D

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Sevenstar,
Now, a lot of wing chun systems don't have anything to do with dim mak, chi, .

are you sure the center-line strikes has nothing to do with the points on that meridian??

kf cowboy....can't tell you offhand, but I'm pretty sure there's a point like that , but I think it's more upper torso

[cerebus]

Punch 'em in the nose, elbow 'em in the jaw, kick 'em in the balls, stomp their knee joint. Why take chances that you might not be able to find your attacker's points or that he's one of the type who isn't affected by certain point attacks? The regular targets don't leave any guesswork to it.

[blooming lotus]

I don't believe for a minute that anyone is not suseptible to an accurate dimmak attack...but accuracy is key, more than likely why some peoples' strikes don't work..everyone is vulnerable and people who know ...know it well

[cerebus]

I've read some practitioners of the Dillman/ Oyata method of Kyushujutsu (Okinawan Dim Mak) writing that some people are not affected by certain points or are affected to a lesser degree than others.

I don't know a whole lot about that one way or the other, but I've been in enough real scraps to know that when the fists are flying it's nearly hopeless to try for any small points (much less specialized point combinations). Go for the sure thing rather than a "maybe".

[blooming lotus]

small point strikes are inadvisable, especially in heated combat.....there are though many points that everyone is vulnerable to, are extremely effective and always easy to strike accurately....

7*...sorry, missed it before...yes...my school is about o have a week off may 1-7, so I'll spend it out in shaolin /dengfeng....the school I'm teaching at here is organising it

plese see shaolin kungfu blog thread for more info about my experience here.

[SevenStar]

Not all people will react the same way to points being hit. there's too much difference in body types...different pain tolerances, "padding" etc. I 've not even flinched to pressure points that made friends of mine scream. On the same token, I've screamed on points that they didn't feel.

[blooming lotus]

your right, but there are some points that will always be available...like on your lower leg....and foot...and shoulders and head and maybe chest and several more.......If I could speak candidly about specific points you would agree.

PLEASE DO NOT ATTEMPT to find these points yourself, as some are death-strikes and cause irrepairable damage...especially if you are not sure where you struck!!!!

[Nick Forrer]

'are you sure the center-line strikes has nothing to do with the points on that meridian??'

There is a lot of confusion about the centreline- so let me try and dispell some myths (or alternatively add to the confusion). The centre line is the two dimensional plane that interconnects my c.o.g. with that of my opponents. It like a compass needle that always points magnetically north irrespective of which way you are facing. Thus no matter which way my opponent or I are facing the centreline always descrbes the shortest distance between our respective centres of gravity. So there is not MY centreline or HIS centreline- there is only THE centreline.

By way of illustration: If I and my opponent are facing each other and then my opponent turns to the side the centreline does not shift- it remains the same- thus i do not run around to the front of him to hit his 'centre'- i hit it from where I am, taking the shortest route to his COG- consequently in this scenario my point of contact will be either his ribs, his shoulder or the side of his head but the target is till the same - namely his COG.

Thus in Wing chun we always aim to attack our opponents COG in the most efficient manner possible.

This is why I dont think it has anything to do with 'meridians'.

[Serpent]

LOL - Ford's gonna go to a pressure point seminar wearing a wire! :)

[rubthebuddha]

nick's right -- centerline in wing chun has nada to do with meridians. it's about physics, plain and simple.

the angles in which arms and legs interact along with the concept of allowing your limbs to wedge out your opponent's is the primary reason. the other? hitting center mass will give you a much meatier target to hit. if i hit off to the side of center mass, the chances of me missing due to their movement or just having my strike glance off are greater, as are the chances of a wrist injury due to unhappy deflection. if i hit cleanly into center mass, the chances of connecting into something solid are much greater.

back on original topic, i have to say that i don't buy the majority of dim mak allegations. if such things as death touches and meridian work are actually legit, why are they not inadvertantly stumbled upon during things like sex, wrestling, or anything else that involves a great deal of grabbing, gripping and other forms of physical contact?

[Vash]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
your right, but there are some points that will always be available...like on your lower leg....and foot...and shoulders and head and maybe chest and several more.......If I could speak candidly about specific points you would agree.

Why can't you speak candidly about the specific points?

[cerebus]

A lesser known branch of "Dim Mak" was created here in the U.S and has spread throughout the world. It's known as "Big Mac" and attacks the fat & colesterol meridians of the body. In fact it's so effective many people don't realize they're on their way to the grave 'til it's too late. The grandmaster of this art is distinguishable by his bright yellow uniform, red & white striped socks and bright red hair. If you encounter him in your neighborhood, run to the nearest health food store, they will protect you! :D

[IronFist]

So how come people don't die during massages? Surely some masseuse at some point in time has hit a pressure point.

[IronFist]

The only thing close to this I've ever heard of is when you get someone who dies like playing soccer or baseball when the ball hits them at just the right moment between heartbeats or something. But that's not really dim mak, because don't tell me you'd know when your opponents heart is beating, much less be able to time the strike just perfectly.

[cerebus]

And what about kickboxers? Especially Thai kickboxers with their knee & elbow combos. Whenever they die, it's seemingly always from the obvious punishment they take and not something mysteriously unidentifiable. :confused:

[IronFist]

^ Do they die a lot?

[cerebus]

Less than one might imagine after seeing some of their fights, but every once in awhile there are deaths. Usually from the leaping downward elbow strike from what I've heard.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by cerebus
A lesser known branch of "Dim Mak" was created here in the U.S and has spread throughout the world. It's known as "Big Mac" and attacks the fat & colesterol meridians of the body. In fact it's so effective many people don't realize they're on their way to the grave 'til it's too late. The grandmaster of this art is distinguishable by his bright yellow uniform, red & white striped socks and bright red hair. If you encounter him in your neighborhood, run to the nearest health food store, they will protect you! :D

LOL....great analogy :D

alot of dim mak principal strikes have not immediate effect, but in the futrue ( near or distant) you develop ailments that you may never even jerry came from that dim mak strike way back........

the reason these points aren't so obviously activated during sex and massage is the type of contact you have with these points...for instance, a opint that is activated most effectively for attack/defence by a knuckle strike wil remain unharmed or in active during either sex or massage...even some rough and tumble or deep tissue ( in which case they'd more likely be stimluating with "healing qi" )........the points that are "stroke" strikes are greatly in regions that you would be unlikely to hit during these activities.

but if they wre activated the effcts would either be subtle or damage cumulatively building over time...for instance, it may just cause you to experience an off day or several....confusion or headaches or slight kidney and dehydration trouble, you may experience small aches etc over the nxt period and never make the connection of their origin......make sense??

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by IronFist
^ Do they die a lot?

sure they do, everybody does...

seriously, it doesn't happen alot, although it has happened.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus


the reason these points aren't so obviously activated during sex and massage is the type of contact you have with these points...for instance, a opint that is activated most effectively for attack/defence by a knuckle strike wil remain unharmed or in active during either sex or massage...

so, in the millions of boxing matches, kickboxing matches, MMA matches, thai matches, etc. Not one person has ever struck a dim mak point at the right time on the right day of the week?

[blooming lotus]

not so....I was reading a ufc article not so long ago where a competitor described how he uses points in ring-matches and their effects...likes days and weeks of repercussion...ie: out of action limbs and unconciousness ...etc etc....

once again don't devalue the actual knowledge of where these points are and what that means....quite often to be effective, you really need to be aware of these points to be able to strike them with effect...direction of your strike is important..Ie; up, down, stroke, sideways...combopoints...

alsoamount of presure and application makes a diffence.....you've heard people heredescribe howeven practionners who know sometimes havetrouble using the points with accuracy....It is an art an not to be underestimated or its' knowledge taken for granted

[SevenStar]

1. pressure point strikes are illegal in MMA.

2. Even if they weren't MT and boxing spend no time at all learning pressure points really, and that comprises the majority of the strikers that compete.

3. grapplers use them to an extent - wrestlers are notorious for it - but they don't end a fight, they merely produce a reaction that the wrestler can capitalize on.

[SevenStar]

I thought this was interesting... read the section on pressure points.

http://mendax.org/article.php?article_id=53

[blooming lotus]

Illegal?? ...I'll take your word for it


good find on the article though. I think what the writer is trying to express is that an "average" fighter can't expect to apply pressure to points andhave an opponent drop in front of them...it mainly talks about smaller points....larger points for viability are a whole new game and of course, you would need to compliment that with skills from other styles.......but for use during a fight, real or otherwise...against a skilled dm makker.....I know where where I'm putting my money

;)

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by SevenStar
1. pressure point strikes are illegal in MMA.


No, they aren't.

http://www.ufc.tv/learnUFC/rulesUfc.asp

http://www.pridefc.com/about/rules.htm

In neither body of rules are pressure points even mentioned, let alone prohibited.

I've been present for the rules meetings of several local MMA events in New Jersey, and pressure points were never mentioned there, either.

[SevenStar]

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!! you're right. Funny thing is I knew that...brain **** last night, I suppse. So, I searched for it. The first thing I clicked on had a list of rules. It said they were prohibited.... I just now went back and looked - It was on a gaming site...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Illegal?? ...I'll take your word for it


good find on the article though. I think what the writer is trying to express is that an "average" fighter can't expect to apply pressure to points andhave an opponent drop in front of them...it mainly talks about smaller points....larger points for viability are a whole new game and of course, you would need to compliment that with skills from other styles.......but for use during a fight, real or otherwise...against a skilled dm makker.....I know where where I'm putting my money

;)

you claim some proficiency in dim mak, only having under a year fo experience in it. Other guys here and elsewhere are saying it takes years to become proficient... Who did you train it under?

[blooming lotus]

okay ...now we're getting complicated.....remember I have practiced qigong for 15yrs and have many varied studies all somewhat interlinked to dim mak concepts...eveloution is a funny thing ....there are many roads to the bodhitree.....

[Gangsterfist]

Well, can you give us some basic ideas and concepts of your dim mak? What are the maxims behind it? Dim Mak is a broad term and very widely diverse in answer IMHO. I don't know much but I know some nasty stuff that will put a person down. That is ofcourse if I could pull it off.

I may shed a little light on this area if you are not understanding where I am coming from. One principle I know is called: Sealing the breathe.

[cerebus]

"Sealing the breath"
Known in Brazillian Dim Mak as : "Royce would choke him out!"
:D :D :D

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by cerebus
"Sealing the breath"
Known in Brazillian Dim Mak as : "Royce would choke him out!"
:D :D :D

LOL

Actually that may be an external way to look at it. So, your joke has some truth in it actually hehe.

[SevenStar]

teacher? lineage?

[blooming lotus]

varied......
unsubstantiated :D ;)

gf...what do you mean examples????

this is starting to get heady...but go ahead...please clarify your question

[Gangsterfist]

well there are many different definitions of dim mak. Also alot of different techniques, some more deadly (for lack of a better word) and some are less.

Sealing the breath is a technique that seals the breath of your opponet. The strike stops the ability to breathe, and also traps it in the lung (kind of like getting the wind knocked out of ya, but worse) It can be done several different ways.

Like I said, I know very little of this type stuff and have only been shown some things here and there.

So, now you share a little of what you know I am curious to see how what I know differs.

[Kristoffer]

I havn't been taught any preassure point crap. Except in Qin Na where you often strike/hold certain 'points' to maximize pain.

First of all if there is anything like 'death points', wich not only would take years to learn how to target correctly, but also years to learn correctly, you will also have looked past the fact that about 90 % of all TMA doesn't condition their hands, yet alone their finger strikes. My Sifu has trained for about 50 years and he is the only one I've ever seen that can finger strike through bricks. I think most internalists have a really naive mindset. You think doing a taiji form and some qi gong for some years will build your 'chi'? Think it will prevent your fingers to crush against the stone? Think again

[blooming lotus]

you want me to list different tortures and effects i can effect on a person???............I think I've done enough of that ...so sorry...bit busy now

[scotty1]

"I think I've done enough of that "

Come on BL, you haven't really have you?;)

[blooming lotus]

even though it's probably boardering on egostistical..ok...when I havesome more time ...maybe tommorow I will get back to you

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
even though it's probably boardering on egostistical..ok...when I havesome more time ...maybe tommorow I will get back to you

Have you ever noticed that whenever we ask a question about claims, the odd facts you stated in the training forum, proof that ng mui created dim mak, etc. you never have an answer, but "will get back to us" and never do? Help us out some.

[Kristoffer]

I've noticed that too

[Gangsterfist]

FWIW, there are many different types of dim mak. The stuff I know is mostly not fatal, life taking strikes. However, they are nasty very painful injuries to inflict on someone. So not everytime you look at dim mak think about death moves. A lot of it is not one hit death moves that cause your insides to explode.

[blooming lotus]

I'm sorry guys..really..just busy as a mofo...and here IT facilities are often dubious...

spent over an hr last night writing some stuff out but had a legthy pm to answer and now I have a class...I'll post it in my nxt break ;)

[blooming lotus]

ok 7*...as promised..I hope you appreciste this because this post is just a bit lengthy...appologies to the moderator....

Dim mak points and effects....

no..I'm not going to tell you where they are....:p

local pain ( immense to slight), recipient to fal down, mental illness ( now and later in life), mind confusion, heat in the head>ko, extreme nausea, kidney damage, sleeping problems, immediate kidney failure, bladder incompetance, loss of communication btwn upper and lower body, weakening of body, emotional confusion, long term lack of energy, death (immediately, within secs, days, mths), feel as though chocked, pyscological imbalnce, extreme fatigue, paralysis ( local/stomache to neck/ lowre body, upper body, limb, partial limb, ) , diaphragm disfunction, instant heartstoppage, shock waves through chest, lung disfunction, compelling feeling to sit down, phisical imbalance, coughing, itchiness, whole system damage, great internal damage, unidentifiable cause of death, nerve damage, cold sores, rambling nonsense, heart tense and hyperactive, high blood pressure, severe digestive disfunction, scattered mind, hyperventilation, overheated heart, torrets syndrome, cause "off day", gushing, feel like collapsing, buckling of legs, effect motoring skills, effect movement of body fluids, great pain somust sit down, breathing problems, intestinal problems, heat to head, weak joints, longterm loss of limb use, excess blood to brain/heart, carteroid disintergration ( Ie:delayed death...hence erm delayed death touch point, weight loss and or gain, sick in stomache, shock to brain, death , emotional problems, over-acting emotions, nuerological shutdown, nausea > nagging pain intensifying, total disorientation, blindness ( & no, not from aneye - gouge), internal disintegration, days ofimmense pain, brain disfunction, cognition malfunction, uncordination, black out, diahorea ( instant and longlasting), lightheadedness, lymph-node disfunction, bleeding from Pen*s, gallbladder damage, burst bladder, spasms, longterm incontnence, nuerological shut down, nervous system shutdown, momentary or long lasting blindness, liver dysfunction, leg/torso communication failure, gall bladder liver disease, sterility, cancer, fainting, tendon weakness ( easy set-up point to strike to tear, joint dislocation, immobilisation, heart disease, spech impediment, "im' dying " type nausea, epliepsy, intense fetal schruching from vicios pain, nose bleeds, splen damage, gastro bleeding, slepless nigts, cramps, atrophy, immediate defication, varicous veins, stomache disorders, low immunity, ligament weaking, leg to qiver and/or bounce, coma, cloon damage, unable to absorb nutrition from food eaten, artificial grief > extreme sobbong ( like a baby ;) ), shock, disorientation, memory loss..............

and the list goes on...also got my chinese history major colleage to get some links to info re: ng mui and dim mak...let you know when I get them

[SevenStar]

:confused:

I didn't ask about the various effects...I've heard all of that before. My question was who you trained under and your lineage. I'm not sure who asked about effects.

Don't worry about apologizing to the mod - I am one. :D

[joedoe]

I think I've been dim mak'd - I suffer from some of those things :D

[rubthebuddha]

we all know about the brain disfunction. here's to hoping you don't bleed from your weewee. :eek:

assuming dim mak is effective (it's a stretch for me, but i'll go with it), what's the purpose in being able to inflict many of those ailments? i can understand anything that causes immediate results, but why would you want someone to die a month from now, or have perpetual diarrhea, or atrophy? i can't imagine a dim mak usage outside of self defense, so what's the purpose of giving someone an injury that doesn't affect the here and now, but rather injures them in the future?

[Toby]

It'd be god**** funny with a couple of mates at the bar. "Remember that dude you dim mak'd with the diarrhea death touch? He must still be on the ****ter right now."

[blooming lotus]

so you see my point then............

that's why I say the art is so malicious and why I wouldn't like to teach it to anyone I wasn't sure would use it only when neccessary. I do believe in karma and I wold consider this a result of my actions....ike I said before, having this information has given me new perspective on when it's ok to fight back, and howmuch force is genuinely neccessary...In debating this with myself, I learned to further develop alternatives...throws and takedowns are one of them...disarming smile, or conversation and humor is another...but it's nice to know that if seriously neccessary, I have the means to do what I must.

comprehende

anyway 7...I told you, dim mak has several facets and only one is chart info and study of applications...then there's meridians and qi to understand, physiology and tcm, maybe combat phsycology etc etc...my actual dim mak source I would not like to say, the rest has been cumulative....oh...and i don't know his lineage.....maybe grand master po currently in melbourne

I got taught from some-one who was not an actual teacher and studied independantly pretty hard core....I guess I studies well enough, because I ran it by this taiwanese police-forensics dude I met in my travels ( amongst others here)..and he seemed to approve ....like I said.....many roads to the bohidtree

[cerebus]

Striking points to make someone sh!t their britches can be dangerous in more ways than one!:D

What if someone attacks you and you hit a point that makes him totally crap himself. He says "Fock it" and tackles you to the ground where you end up rolling around, trying to get away from a dude who has fecal matter dripping outta his pants!! :eek: :eek: Bleah!

[SevenStar]

sorry for all the questions, but it strikes me as mighty odd you claim to be able to do in less than one year of training what everyone says take several years to master...

[backbreaker]

:D lol. Anyways, best way to look like you don't know what you are talking about- is talk about dim mak alot. So if you're gonna speak about what you know of acupoints, think it through very carefully, from others perspective

[Former castleva]

assuming dim mak is effective (it's a stretch for me, but i'll go with it), what's the purpose in being able to inflict many of those ailments? i can understand anything that causes immediate results, but why would you want someone to die a month from now, or have perpetual diarrhea, or atrophy? i can't imagine a dim mak usage outside of self defense, so what's the purpose of giving someone an injury that doesn't affect the here and now, but rather injures them in the future?
Discussion;
"Gosh,you really were beaten up bad,were not you?"
...
"Oh yeah? You should see him ... in,say a month or so.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by SevenStar
sorry for all the questions, but it strikes me as mighty odd you claim to be able to do in less than one year of training what everyone says take several years to master...

No drama ;)

that's what I'm talkin 'bout.....go figure that the locals still find me competitive taking into accout my short period of "actual " dim maktraining ???:confused: ...for real.. I think it has a huge deal to do with my relatedstudies...It all ties in together and the rest I've been studying for over 15 yrs...

It blows me away aswell...but It's kept me alive to date and I've seen more than a few hairy real-life situations....

my colleages are blow away, because to be honest, my sanda s*cks!! but My dim mak at these times seriously compensates ...check it out...Iknow you're interested and I think you have potential to be one of our greater ma'ers
...and ditto to Iron
cheers 7 ;)

[Gangsterfist]

From what I have read, and been taught about dim mak is nothing like the delayed effects. It is instant and it is very painful, and in some cases can be fatal. I can't vouge for any of that delayed effects techniques, but I can't say that they are fake either I guess.

[Shadowboxer]

I've been talking to my friend who is an liscensed accupuncturist about dim mak, trying to get her POV, since she deals with points and chi and meridians. Some of her texts contain points that have "disclaimers" for martial arts/artists. I explained to her the concept of dim mak, hitting points in a certain order, like the cycle of destruction, to cause debilitating effects from whatever to death. She said she could understand that because she uses points to heal and there are certain combos you use and certain combos you don't use, for pregnant ladies for example. At certain times of the day, your chi is stored in different parts of the body. She mentioned a manual that breaks down the chi flow into the year 2019. I asked to her to try to find it, so I could check it out, as I'm not sure I understand fully what the manual is about.

Now, in reality I've seen her treat a pregnant lady whose baby was in the breach position(upside down). She lit some moxa (spongy incense kind of stuff) and simply waved it around the little toe. There is a point there, a merdian where chi flows, to turn the baby the right way, but there was no physical contact. The baby did turn the correct way but it was also backwards, so they did a C-section. That same baby months later had the hiccups. The accupuncture treatment for that is CV 12 (conduction vessel) which expands the diaphragm. I thought that on a basic level, this is dim mak. Maniuplating a point to affect an organ, expanding it in this case.

So who has the time to study charts for years to understand this concept? Who has the time to know each day what points to hit to cause (desired effect) just in case you got in a fight? Maybe back in the day several hundreds of years ago some people did this with their time....??? It's easy to see how this has become a "lost art"

[IronFist]

You can give someone Torrets from a dim mak strike? wtf?

[rubthebuddha]

you know, with obesity, tourettes, chronic schizophrenia, etc., i wonder if the late, great wesley willis was a victim of some ****ing dim mak practitioner. :confused: :mad:

[Gangsterfist]

Sevenstar,

Dim Mak is a very precise technique. It would take more than years to master it. It would take decades of dedicated practice to really effect someone in the ways mentioned here. Not to mention, every human being is slightly different and their vital points and meridans won't be in the exact same place. IMHO, dim mak is almost a waste of training on a martial level. If you train it to heal people its different.

Also dim mak is very widely spread through many different techniques and ideas. The dim mak I have learned (and read about) is more geared towards fighting, not healing. It deals with things like: displacing the bone, breaking the bone, sealing the breath, and so forth. Things that cause immediate damage and pain to your opponet.

Why train for years and years to disable someone when in reality you can just punch him in the throat. If you strike someone in the throat/neck area and they don't go down, then you should probably run away.

I have this book (its an real old publication, found it at the used book store) simply called dim mak. Its a short read that shows certain points on the body you can hit, with pictures, and their effects. It also has a chart that lists what things are deadly at what times of the day.

This is pretty much horse crap. Some people work night jobs and don't sleep during the night so their chi flow would be off from the normal person. Other people have alergies and are on medicine that effects their body. There would never be any sort of constant you can base this stuff off of because every human being is different. Different from their diets, health habbits, sleeping schedule, amount of sleep, what kind of work they do (physical labor, office work, etc) and so on and so forth.

Now, I do believe there are probably some basic constants since we all have the same insides right. However, those would still vary a bit depending on height, weight, build, age, etc.

So, why train for all this specific stuff that may never even be needed when you can just train to punch people? Who do you think would win in a fight, a person who studies kung fu all their life, or a person who studies dim mak? Just like BL said, her san da wasn't that good at the moment. If she really tried to apply dim mak to a skilled fighter she would probably have her butt handed to her.

Similar types of techniques can be developed over time. Just study your kung fu hard and practice some sort of internal art (taiji, bagua, hsing-i, qigong, etc) to help build those internal organs and the energy around them. Internal release, controled relaxed movements, and controlling the yin and yang energies is more important IMHO for a martial artist. I know for one I can feel a difference from when I first started practicing taiji until present time, and I have only been doing taiji for about 1 year now. The taiji has also helped my wing chun in many ways as well.

Just some thoughts, so take what you want from them.

[Toby]

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
Now, in reality I've seen her treat a pregnant lady whose baby was in the breach position(upside down). She lit some moxa (spongy incense kind of stuff) and simply waved it around the little toe. There is a point there, a merdian where chi flows, to turn the baby the right way, but there was no physical contact.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
That same baby months later had the hiccups. The accupuncture treatment for that is ...
Why would you want to stop a baby hiccupping?

[rubthebuddha]

gangsta put into words what everyone else was thinking but didn't say because we were too busy egging on a few folks. :D

tobers -- baby hiccups are kinda cute, so i see your point.

[Toby]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
gangsta put into words what everyone else was thinking but didn't say because we were too busy egging on a few folks. :D
I've been very restrained and polite lately ;). Banging my head against a brick wall doesn't work, so I'm trying civility and letting idiocy speak for itself.


Originally posted by rubthebuddha
tobers -- baby hiccups are kinda cute, so i see your point. Well, with 3 of them I always thought that baby hiccups were fine. Apparently they don't bother babies at all like they do adults. They get'em pretty often, too, like every day or so. And they're cute :p.

[scotty1]

"san da wasn't that good at the moment. If she really tried to apply dim mak to a skilled fighter she would probably have her butt handed to her. "

And that's the whole point. If your fighting isn't good enough to hit targets like the *face* and *stomach* at will, how're you going to hit a spot requiring far greater accuracy, when the person you're fighting is smacking you in your *face* and *stomach* repeatedly.

Sounds to me like what BL is describing is a series of targets. The payload still needs a delivery system though, even if the payload is worth having (which I'm not convinced it is).

There's a bit in Docherty's complete taijichuan about two practitioners systematically testing the points on each other- so far they learnt that it hurts to get punched in the face. :)

[blooming lotus]

it's where on the face, back, stomache, neck , throat that your striking that counts...shirk the dim mak...I'll face off with you ! :D

Ignorance is bliss ha :rolleyes:

[scotty1]

Yeah but if your sanda isn't good enough to hit larger targets how're you going to hit smaller ones?

[Gangsterfist]

I am not sure what styles of martial arts everyone here takes, but in wing chun we invite you come in at us. We put up our structure and if you come in at us all the better for us. If you cannot fight at a basic level (san da is pretty much kickboxing with takes downs, right? or am I wrong?) then there is no way you would be able to apply precise strikes to your opponet.

[Shadowboxer]

My point was that by manipulating CV 12 you can expand the diaphragm--points on the body affect certain organs.

Also, I saw the moxa treatment for turning the baby. You aren't calling me a liar are you Toby?

Gfist,

If I was going to try to hit points I would want some measure of control first so you aren't moving as much. Like a leg trap with a lop da, where the da attacks whatever point.

[Gangsterfist]

shadowboxer-

Fair enough, but when I feel threatened in a fight I start doing more drastic things to get out of the situation. So you better be quick to control me, keep me under control, and strike with precision, because if you don't then I am going fight back.

[Shadowboxer]

I hear you. I don't try for points. I would rather use my Kungfu. Just saying IF I were going for a point, I would want some amount of control over you first to make it "higher percentage" to borrow from our grappling buddies ;)

[Gangsterfist]

Agreed. If I really really really wanted to be mean, I would just gouge out an eye. Much easier than applying dim mak lol.

Anyways, best of luck in your training.

[rubthebuddha]

if you want to be mean, burst an ear drum or two. it's easy and you won't break your digits if you miss. after that, you can do what you want to the eyes.

[scotty1]

(san da is pretty much kickboxing with takes downs, right? or am I wrong?)

got this from Budoseek-

"San-da means "scattered" "hits" and San-shou means "scattered" "hands".

I always took sanda to mean any kind of free fighting (like in sparring) and sanshou to be the rules format you referred to above.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
I hear you. I don't try for points. I would rather use my Kungfu. Just saying IF I were going for a point, I would want some amount of control over you first to make it "higher percentage" to borrow from our grappling buddies ;)


ex-freakin-actly!

[blooming lotus]

point striking isn't gongfu?? sure it's not :rolleyes:

sanda is forms more specifically boxing forms...sanshou isfreestyle fighting...I'm confident frestyle, but my forms as awhole set is not so great...

I find it arty and not so practicle..again compulosries and performance vs real-life applications...

I prefer to train for "real" situations and often, whole or sets forms just don't cover me....as you do...I think I just evoloved my own individual style comprising many varied stlyesand forms...of which dim mak is integral

[cerebus]

San Da is NOT forms. San Da and San Shou are the same thing. I was a San Da fighter from '90 to '92 in Italy. San Da is sometimes referred to as "Chinese Kickboxing" it's just an earlier (80s/ early 90s) term for San Shou.

[Toby]

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
Also, I saw the moxa treatment for turning the baby. You aren't calling me a liar are you Toby?
Not quite, but almost ;). I'm expressing extreme scepticism. If it were so simple, why don't all doctors worldwide wave a bit of burning incense at a mother's little toe? I believe that you believe that the treatment works. And I believe that your friend believes it. Did you see the baby turn? Did it happen straight away? Breach babies will make a hell of a lot of movement if they turn. The current method for turning them by doctors is to physically manipulate the mother's stomach and hence the baby inside. Why risk the damage and pain to mother and baby if a magical chi point turns the baby with no physical contact? If your friend is right there are potentially millions (billions?) of dollars to be made from the treatment worldwide. Patent it today, call the moxa some fancy medical name and you're all set.

[blooming lotus]

Cerebus...well ok then..guess my sanda is not so bad after all then ;)

Toby...that's the whole point in the difference between western and traditional chinese medicine..they're based on totally different concepts, work in totally different ways and as far as I'm concerned, those tcm practioners are medical geniuses..these dudes are awesome.....there's no way anyone here is going to win this argumenent against you here so if you're really interested..do some study

[Buby]

Originally posted by IronFist
So how come people don't die during massages? Surely some masseuse at some point in time has hit a pressure point.

IF,

There are a couple of reasons....Intent, power, direction and point being struck. At times its more than just striking one point. Look to the combos in your forms. If you understand the applications and where you are hitting all you have to do then is pull out an accupunture chart and see where the combos are landing. Most combos are Dim Mak setups in the art I study, so if you follow the combos on the accupunture chart and see how the points relate to the yin and yang and the 5 elements, you find things like fire burning wood. In simple terms, you see how the hands relate to the destruction cycle.

Be easy,
Buby

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Toby...that's the whole point in the difference between western and traditional chinese medicine..they're based on totally different concepts, work in totally different ways ...
Yeah, I get that there are fundamental conceptual differences BL. But if for argument's sake the moxa-little toe treatment worked even a few % of the time, then it would be well worthwhile for a scientist to conduct a study, publish a paper in a recognised journal and majorly change Western medicine forever or patent the moxa under some brand name and make a fortune. Why hasn't anyone done that? Why doesn't Shadowboxer's friend do that? As you know, I remain a sceptic ;).

[Brad]

I'm a skeptic too, but I also think were such a thing possible, it would still have a hard time getting a foothold in mainstream science. People are afraid of change. I also think there'd be a lot of people out here in the midwest screaming witchcraft ;)

[blooming lotus]

exactly!!!...like Toby for instance ...

Traditional chinese medicine is already a science...and there are many works published regarding its' methods, treatments and principals....alot of western doctors combine both eastern and western medicine and there are actual courses you can take along these lines....I'm not debating it with you though...if you're interested check it out for self...info is extremely easy to find ;)

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
exactly!!!...like Toby for instance ...

No BL, you've got me all wrong. I will believe almost anything if there is reliable research to back it up. But taking one hypothetical example - the moxa/little toe treatment - I don't believe it. I doubt there has been a scientific study into the treatment. If there had been and it were published in a respected journal, it would be the accepted treatment worldwide, since it is much kinder on the patient. Unless moxa is prohibitively expensive or has toxic side-effects. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there has been studies and doctors just won't accept the treatment. But I suspect that most Western medicine doctors would be of a similar mindset to me - prove it works and they'll use it.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Again.. there are those that require proof and those that trust the experience itself.. i have seen and felt the effects of Dim Mak, i don't need measurements or approval by a scientific research to validate my experience.. it's simply a difference of personal belief systems.. some people need external validation to limit their responsibility of choice, that way they can blame someone beside themselves when it doesn't work the way they planned.. some people simply fear being wrong so much that they wont take chances, they wait for others to "prove" something before they get involved.. then, there are those that use science as a crutch to support their own inability to have the disputed experience..

So much of our day-to-day life is centered on unverifiable experiences, experiences that we accept without question but which are no more than common reports of unmeasurable experiences.. like Love, insight, intuition, fear, creativity, etc... Science tells us that about every 15 years or so the entire human body has replicated itself, that no single previous atom exists within the image of the body currently displayed.. the question is well put as to what exists that re-organizes the new atoms and molecules into the "new you".. what is it that maintains memories and knowledge? that same unanswerable question is the basis of the experience we call Qi, or Dim Mak, or Life..

In the end, we will each rationalize whatever belief system we choose and the debates over which is more correct will only serve to add conflict to our overall experiences.. where we fail is in the desire to have others believe as we do, life will continue in its grand design regardless of our petty differences.. but, as i remind my students, no great achievements were made without an investment of faith in something that at that point was still unproven.. or, as Einstein said, "imagination is more important than knowledge"... So, as i started this post, i said i have seen and experienced the effects of Dim Mak.. not the "death touch", but effects that far outweighed the applied force.. however we describe the process, the experience was valid.. Sure, there are many myths that exceed the limits of reason, but there is also a cretain body of commonly reported experiences that can't be ignored, don't "throw out the baby with the bath-water"..

Be well...

[Shadowboxer]

I'll post the documentation later today...:)

[blooming lotus]

personal belief system nothing!! It's called medical science and if you could read and understand chinese maybe you would be able to appreciate the journals you ask about.

ps. enlish versuons do exist but are rare. there are courses though that you can take if you're sincerely interested, or even just curious..... ;)

[SevenStar]

medical science states that qi maintains our memories and knowledge?

[blooming lotus]

if you know how to read it ;) :D

[dwid]

Again.. there are those that require proof and those that trust the experience itself.. i have seen and felt the effects of Dim Mak, i don't need measurements or approval by a scientific research to validate my experience.. it's simply a difference of personal belief systems.. some people need external validation to limit their responsibility of choice, that way they can blame someone beside themselves when it doesn't work the way they planned.. some people simply fear being wrong so much that they wont take chances, they wait for others to "prove" something before they get involved.. then, there are those that use science as a crutch to support their own inability to have the disputed experience..

That's a bit of a limiting and somewhat insulting description of those who support the scientific method, Bob.

Those people who "need external validation" and "use science as a crutch" are responsible for the computer you are using to access this site, the car you drive to work, the electricity that powers so many of your modern conveniences. Say what you want about the anecdotal validity of mysticism and qi, the scientific method has done an awful lot for us. There's a reason that modern hospitals in countries with a strong history of naturopathic medicine use western medicine today. The practices and prescriptions are proven and predictable. If it's a crutch to rely on research to keep you from consuming poison, then it's a crutch well worth having.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Medical science quite simply assigns measurements and theories to experiences, much of which works quite well.. regardless of whatever the measurement or theory suggests, the experience survives.. the human experience is an evolving process and we are at a particular place on that evolutionary path, it seems silly to discount a goodly portion of that experience whenever there is such a large body of commonly reported experiences.. it seems more reasonable to reserve judgment and perhaps science will uncover a useful body of evidence the empowers the skeptics to have an expanded experience.. it seems like skeptics prefer to confine rather than expand the human experience..

Science will tell us of so much measureable brain activity accessed during the memory experience, or during the creative experience, etc... but, they can't pry in there and see the "memory" or creativity.. they only surmise that certain measureable activities must relate to the memory or whatever other mental process is occurring.. just how an insight is formed is not evident to science, just how we can conjure images and memories is still a mystery.. i remind you that most of science is founded on conditional statements (if/then).. we will all acknowledge the effects of gravity eventhough we cannot quantify the process, it is an unseen and unexplained force.. science is just a tool/process created by mankind, it doesn't exist outside the mind.. don't let the tool become master..

Be well..

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I agree, and so.. i apologize for the harshness and limited perspective.. sometimes i just tire of those that bash away at things they don't understand or believe in.. i tire at the trivial dismissal of a person's experience simply because it doesn't conform to someone else's model.. i energetically support science until it becomes self-confining, until it becomes someone's tool for asserting that my experience is invalid.. I do not dispute the value of the scientific method, only its misuse.. i sense that it was intended to explore human experience, not confine it.. simply because something eludes the method's current abilities, does not invalidate it.. heck, i can even theorize, with today's science, that "projected energy" is a possibility.. we haven't cultivated our consciousness to that level, yet.. but, if we accept the assertion that we can't, then we will never know.. much of today's technology was yesterday's imagination..

So much of the Qi experience (and by default, Dim Mak) can be attributed to explainable scientific principles.. but, there is that elusive portion that is experienced yet not quantifiable.. it seems to me to be a result of a combination of processes where the sum of the processes exceeds the anticipated effect.. or, the experience is greater than the sum of its individual processes.. sort of like an automoble engine.. the parts lying in a pile produce little, if any, power.. yet, in the hands of a trained mechanic, it can be assembled in such a way as to produce great power.. so, perhaps, the sum of many explainable processes produce an unexplainable result.. that result is non-existent until the well-trained processes combine to produce it.. it is not a quantity laying around to measured or defined.. it is that special moment in that special piece of music that just simply touches your soul.. no explanation, it just happens..

Be well...

Be well..

[Shadowboxer]

From the section "Breech Presentation":

"There are many reports form China on the efficacy of this treatment(9,10)...
9.Tian Cong Huo 1985 Collection of Accupuncture Experiences,Science and Literature Publishing House, Chongqing, p.229.
10.Chen You Bang 1990 Chinese Accupuncture Therapy, China Scientific Publishing House, Beijing, p.910.
...Studies conducted in China report varying success rates ranging from 89.9% to 90.3%(Wei Wen, Co-operative Research Group on Moxibustion Version,1984,(where "version" refers to the turning of the fetus in the uterus). A study conducted in Italy in 1990 by Cardini and colleagues reports a 60.6% success rate in a group of 33 women, with fetal gestational ages ranging from 30-38 weeks. Most research papers on moxibustion show that the 34th week is the optimal time to carry out the technique and gives a higher success rate...

On the mechanism :

A trial carried out by the Co-operative Research Group on Moxibustion Version of Jiangxi Province (1980) postulates that the increase in corticoadrenal secretion, through the resulting increase in placental oestrogens and changes in prostaglandin levels which they measured, raises basal tone and enhances uterine contraction,stimulating fetal mobility, and thus making "version" more likely...the effect of moxibustion on point BL-67 Zhiyin to turn the fetus...A second study by the same authors presents the results of one week's treatments with moxibustion in 241 pregnant women of gestational ages ranging from 28-34 weeks, in comparison with 264 control subjects. In the group of women treated with moxa there were 195 "versions" (81%) as against 130 (49%) in the control group; the difference is significant (p< 0.05)

Not sure what the last line means. Comments?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
From the section "Breech Presentation":

"There are many reports form China on the efficacy of this treatment(9,10)...
9.Tian Cong Huo 1985 Collection of Accupuncture Experiences,Science and Literature Publishing House, Chongqing, p.229.
10.Chen You Bang 1990 Chinese Accupuncture Therapy, China Scientific Publishing House, Beijing, p.910.
...Studies conducted in China report varying success rates ranging from 89.9% to 90.3%(Wei Wen, Co-operative Research Group on Moxibustion Version,1984,(where "version" refers to the turning of the fetus in the uterus). A study conducted in Italy in 1990 by Cardini and colleagues reports a 60.6% success rate in a group of 33 women, with fetal gestational ages ranging from 30-38 weeks. Most research papers on moxibustion show that the 34th week is the optimal time to carry out the technique and gives a higher success rate...

On the mechanism :

A trial carried out by the Co-operative Research Group on Moxibustion Version of Jiangxi Province (1980) postulates that the increase in corticoadrenal secretion, through the resulting increase in placental oestrogens and changes in prostaglandin levels which they measured, raises basal tone and enhances uterine contraction,stimulating fetal mobility, and thus making "version" more likely...the effect of moxibustion on point BL-67 Zhiyin to turn the fetus...A second study by the same authors presents the results of one week's treatments with moxibustion in 241 pregnant women of gestational ages ranging from 28-34 weeks, in comparison with 264 control subjects. In the group of women treated with moxa there were 195 "versions" (81%) as against 130 (49%) in the control group; the difference is significant (p< 0.05)

Not sure what the last line means. Comments?

The last line is statistical - it means that they tested the statistical results with a 95% confidence interval and the difference was found to be significant i.e. the moxibustion had a statistically significant effect.

[Toby]

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
...There you go! Thanks very much Shadowboxer - I stand corrected. Let this be a lesson to all those who argue their mystical claims - provide proof and the most ardent of skeptics may come around to your case. Re the study - very nice. Although we didn't have this problem with any of our 3 (all turned themselves as most do), it is certainly an impressive statistic to those who need a version. 81% vs 49%. Any more studies?

[Toby]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings..

Hi.

TaiChiBob, obviously you are referring to me. Yes, I'm a skeptic and yes, I require external validation to support my beliefs. What defines the limits of your faith? What if I said to you that I can knock anyone down from 20' away with chi blasts from my eyes? Would you believe that? Or would you require external validation? I haven't personally experienced any dim mak the likes of which BL described. Some of it I believe could be possible. Some of it I would never believe. E.g. cold sores, cancer, heart disease. Do you believe that these can be caused by dim mak? Cold sores come from a virus that most people carry. But some people don't have the virus. Can BL's dim mak cause cold sores in people who don't carry the virus? How about cancer? How is that caused by dim mak? Heart disease? Should I have faith in what she says and believe all these things?

[SevenStar]

I'm a skeptic also. I know pressure points CAN be used - I've seen yang jwing ming touch my friend's arm and make it go limp. But, how many people can actually DO it in a combat situation against a fully resisting opponent? I'm sure you'd find that the number is surprisingly low. When it comes to self defense, there isn't room for theorizing. What theoretically SHOULD work may get you killed when you try it and it doesn't work the way it was supposed to.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Toby .. I was referring to skeptics, of which there are many in this forum.. if you feel singled out that's a personal issue, not intended by me.. I agree that there many claims that are unlikely to be manifested by even the most gifted, but.. i remain inquisitive as to the potential for evolutionary developments.. situations like the Placebo Effect offer insight into the mind's ability to manifest conditions beyond our current scope of understanding.. hypnosis is another field that can demonstrate the potential for untapped energies.. all i suggest is that there is wisdom in recognizing that there is more potential than there is "proof"..

I am not suggesting that anyone rely on Dim Mak as a sole means of self-defense, like anything else it is merely another tool in the arsenal.. i do suggest that, as martial artists, we should not discount historical accounts solely due to lack of scientific proof.. some form of personal investigation is a worthwhile endeavor..

Be well

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings..

Toby .. I was referring to skeptics, of which there are many in this forum.. if you feel singled out that's a personal issue, not intended by me.. I agree that there many claims that are unlikely to be manifested by even the most gifted,
Be well

probably because its just not neccessary

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


probably because its just not neccessary ...
well, if you really want to try to determine what is "necessary", we would have horrific debate on our hands.. it is purely subjective as to what constitutes "necessary".. and in what situations.. it needn't be such a devisive subject, it works for some, not for others.. pretty simple, huh?.. for those that it works, they don't require the validation of others.. so why bother?

Be well...

[blooming lotus]

cheers :cool:

[Gangsterfist]

dim mak.....bah......I'll just use my .45

[No_Know]

SevenStar, the point is not the hopeful hoppers. Just that it can work. Wannabes need not imply. There are not going to be many who can pull it off. but there doesn't need to be many for it to be a neat thing. and There are types of people I migh not have met. Just because one does not meet or see with own eyes dim maker dim making some have not ever seen snow forthemselves that doesn't make it a lie.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
dim mak.....bah......I'll just use my .45

lol...just as well I also sttudied ninjitsu and have sme gun-defence techs up my sleeve..stealth and ( thx to ch'an buddhism) moral use of, is another credit...

cheers :P

bl

[Former castleva]

...Again.. there are those that require proof and those that trust the experience itself.. i have seen and felt the effects of Dim Mak, i don't need measurements or approval by a scientific research to validate my experience.. it's simply a difference of personal belief systems.. some people need external validation to limit their responsibility of choice, that way they can blame someone beside themselves when it doesn't work the way they planned.. some people simply fear being wrong so much that they wont take chances, they wait for others to "prove" something before they get involved.. then, there are those that use science as a crutch to support their own inability to have the disputed experience.. ... etc.
No offense meant but that´s simply pulling the wool over the person´s eyes.A great red herring.
A shorter answer will do to face a question like "got data?" or to refute a "you have no data".

I notice,of course,that you managed&continued on your point which is great.

[Gangsterfist]

I don't know if this is related or not. One time sifu hit me in the stomach and I instantly passed gas. I don't know what it was he did, but that happened. I wasn't feeling gasy at all that day, and never did it again that day after he hit me.

It could be conincidental I have no idea.

['MegaPoint]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I'm a skeptic also. I know pressure points CAN be used - I've seen yang jwing ming touch my friend's arm and make it go limp. But, how many people can actually DO it in a combat situation against a fully resisting opponent? I'm sure you'd find that the number is surprisingly low. When it comes to self defense, there isn't room for theorizing. What theoretically SHOULD work may get you killed when you try it and it doesn't work the way it was supposed to.

I have a friend at the University of Houston Med. School who is currently under a $300,000 NIH grant to study the efficacy of pressure point therapy (from TCM) on healing, pain relief and other therapeutic effects. So far there does seem to be something to this ancient form of medicine.

As for PPs and real fighting. There are certain vital points that can stun, cause l.o.c. (loss of consciousness), disability and even death. We all know this. To say if I hit GB-9 and L-4 violent coughing, internal bleeding and death will occur within the next day is silly. The meridians as detailed in Chinese Medicine do seem to act on a level beyond motor and sensory nerves when it comes to healing, but their effect is usually not the polar opposite if struck, manipulated viloently or massaged in some manner. The tradition of Yin-Yang plays greatly into the mythical effectiveness of dian xue or dim mak strikes. Now you can slow the heartrate down and cause momentery syncope ("faintness") from a carotid massage, but in a heightened adrenalized state, I wouldn't count on your opponent beind fazed.

I like to think of pressure point strikes as meat tenderizer- mental and physical balance "disruption". Pain hurts. It distracts and causes some to lose their wits and composure. Sometimes pain is enough to gain compliance, but you can't bank on it. Even if you hit the proximal interosseus nerve (shhh! ancient Okinawan secret) just below the elbow crease, which handles motor (motion) and sensory (feeling) signals to your forearm, there are still so many other weapons to watch out for. An angry man can fight through anything short of a k.o. or critical injury. Don't bank on PP fighting. It is a crucial and supplementary knowledge and skill base, but it is no panacea. And it takes years to get down. Double-end bag training will help!

I've been doing MAs that incorporate dian xue ad tuite since I was a kid. I know what works for me, and what the reality of PPs are. There are PP strikes and then there are vital point strikes. I'd rely more on the latter. Later...

[bamboo_ leaf]

Question, when refereeing to pressure points are you refereeing to nerve plexus or to what are some times are called trigger points?

Trigger points: Sore knots or spots caused by local muscle contractions brought on by stress over use ect.

Many common ones have been mapped and seem to fall into the same locations as acupuncture points. There is a large body of work done on this that is quite interesting.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


No offense meant but that´s simply pulling the wool over the person´s eyes.A great red herring.
A shorter answer will do to face a question like "got data?" or to refute a "you have no data". ..

Red Herring?.. sounds intellectual, what does it mean.. if this is your "short answer", it is insufficient.. engage the issues.. assertions like "red herring" or "straw dogs" are sterile replies without substance, deflecting a dialogue about the validity of direct experience, cast out from a self-perceived throne of knowledge.. as for "pulling the wool over someone's eyes", hardly.. i offer my own real experiences openly, expecting AND enjoying rational critique.. i do not rely on "data" to validate my experience, data is twice removed from the experience iself, once by the data collector and again by the interpretation of another observer.. Now, please don't mistake this for a disregard of science, it is not.. it is an awareness that science is dependent upon the experience of man, but.. man is not dependent on the experience of science.. man is simply enamored with the quality of life afforded by science..

Science is a tool.. anyone that lets science dictate their experience has relinquished control to the tool.. i suggest that we have as many varied experiences as possible (in a reasonably healthy way), and, if science verifies those experiences, so much the better.. if not, and the experience is personal and real, give science a chance to hone its processes.. coexistence is much preferred over devisive debate.. Mostly, though, i find it lacking in perspective and purpose to insinuate that someone's experience is false or invalid because it doesn't fit some favored model such as science.. Science may explain every aspect of Dim Mak, it may explain it in volumes of research papers and reports, it may even, someday, find some link to Qi.. but, after reading the reports, wading through volumes of data and concluding that now we can understand Dim Mak.. the two simple words, Dim Mak still represent that enormous volume of data.. so, there's the "shorter answer".. let science be supportive of the experience, but not its determining factor.. science will never replace the experience, only describe it ..

Be well..

[dwid]

I understand what you're getting at Bob, but I think you are still defining science in a limiting way. Science does not just describe and possibly validate human experience, it can also explain it, which is by far the most valuable aspect to the tool. For example, by using the scientific method to study the effects of various substances on the human body at a cellular level, we now understand a great deal about precisely how drugs have the effects they do. With this knowledge, we can look at the chemical structure of a substance and have a pretty good idea of what it's going to do to a person. Furthermore, we can look for/synthesize chemical structures that will achieve the sought after effects of drugs without unwanted side effects.

A system for this sort of analysis/synthesis of knowledge is precisely what is lacking in a system such as TCM, and will continue to be lacking until the tool of the scientific method is applied to the study of TCM.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I agree whole-heartedly.. it is needed.. but, when the process lacks the tools to make the necessary observations, it tends to discount the experience it is trying to observe.. THAT is the problem, not the science itself.. the handlers of the tools often can't accept the simple truth that some things just escape their current ability to measure and categorize.. the loss, is that in their persuassive arguements backed with dazzling "facts and figures", they may convince someone to abandon a real potential for understanding the Qi or Dim Mak process.. Live and let live, we will accomplish more as teams with common purpose than warring camps..

Besides, not everything can be explained, nor should it be.. too many people confuse the explanation with the experience itself..

Be well...

[dwid]

the handlers of the tools often can't accept the simple truth that some things just escape their current ability to measure and categorize.

Agreed.

[Toby]

Hi Bob,

I am interested in scientific methods. Being an engineering student my life is based on them. But I don't discount experience either. The problem is, I don't have the experience in these matters so I will remain skeptical of them. If I did, then I would probably change my opinion. I may ask for a repeat of a demonstration to verify what I'd seen and attempt to rationalise it within my scientific mind. However, I will still accept things that I can't categorize provided I see or experience them. But when someone comes anonymously onto these message boards and makes outlandish claims, why should I believe them? No proof is offered and often stories are anecdotal. The same with Chinese (and Western) history. Many stories are embellished over time and feats become more and more astonishing. Historical "accounts" seem to be more fiction than fact except in the last century or so. Where should my faith's limits be? E.g. BL's cold sores example. I do not believe that and would have to experience that for myself (yuk!) to change my mind. Especially given some of BL's past posts ...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

There are those claims that defy rational or common-sense thought processes.. some claims are indeed embellished accounts of what were probably good Qi expressions.. it is the embellishments that distract us from valid pursuits.. My own interests in these matters stem from my studies in physics, where it seems that on a basic energy level consciousness does affect the energy and the experience.. given that already proven condition, it takes no great leap of faith to realize that the human "could" cultivate almost any degree of control over the various energies and forces that form the foundation of the human experience.. so, while manifesting cold-sores may be possible, why bother with such trivial matters.. if you could do that it seems that much more intriguing work would be the focus.. My point in all of this is to not let the burden of "proof" be the control factor for other experiences.. i am content to have the experiences and let the "proof" evolve at its own pace.. if we confine our experiences to only those that stand the test of science it would be a sterile and passionless existence.. Imagine having a complete and remarkable spiritual experience, then remembering that the experience couldn't be "proven", so you choose to avoid it in the future.. not my favored choice..

Be well..

[No_Know]

"The virus remains permanently in the body, and moves into the nervous system close to the lips, where it will lie dormant until triggered again by a fever, a cold, or other infection, exposure to the sun and wind, stress, menstruation, high levels of amino acid arginine, or depression of the immune system. These sores are very contagious and very common. It has been estimated that between 30 and 60 percent of all children carry the virus by the age ten."-http://www.lipmeds.com/?OVRAW=cold%20sores&OVKEY=cold%20sore&OVMTC=standard

If many people have this virus dormant and stress can trigger it or depression of the immune system and is in the nervous system, and strikes can affect the nervous system...The Chinese are a people who learned the body and it's ways for eons without opening it up. Their reading of what is going on inside from what is going on outside and responses should be respectable.

If through generations of observations it was figured out which bundle~ of nerves could be stimulated to trigger the virus that is highly contageous (one to two thirds of children have it by age ten), and not always noticable at first and can be passed on through kissing...If you stimulate any of the right nerves with enough force, say, with a strike or grab or press, then altercation might result in person having cold sores.

While not the most choice thing to inflict on an enemy, you might do it to a bully. You can hit the right nerves but the viruus might not be present. In such cases you either think it didn't work, or you did not do it right. Or while not being tol there's a virus involved you might be told that it only works for such and such a percentage of people.

Have you ever had a headache then gotten a foot massage and your head felt better? Or heard of such a thing?--causing an effect in one area to affect what might be thought of as a totally different part.

The body is universe of integrated systems.~ Medicine~ only knows as much as they experience. This limits their knowledge. But they do know facts about a little. However, integrating the facts seems beyond at least a few of the practitioners.

What SevenStar, if not others, said about not many could pull-off Dim Mak successfully in live combat~/fight for real~, if it can be done at all it's real. That it's not plentiful does not detract from that. In a twenty minute work out, three days a week society mentality of I want it Now! That more people cannot do it to a level that might satisfy a skeptic seems reasonable. And if they could entertain the thought that they might not tell you. or feel they need to prove to You what they already feel they Know they can do.

Perhaps you know of someone who wants what they want and forget the rest.

Whatever whatever. If the point is does it exist at a useable level for a fight, then I No_Know but neither can several of us who might claim Definitely that it does not. You can be skeptical that the hard ground is hard if you do, but to propagate that it absolutely does not exist because you don't see it or it was not presented to you might seem inappropriate.

Like all that is has to come to you to be.?

Very good.

[blooming lotus]

sorry ...had no tim to read rest of thread since last time but what about cancers and other diseaes cured by qigong...as in no trace what-so-ever???

there have been e-zine and print versions of a number of examples here at kfm

[SevenStar]

ttt

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
sorry ...had no tim to read rest of thread since last time but what about cancers and other diseaes cured by qigong...as in no trace what-so-ever???

there have been e-zine and print versions of a number of examples here at kfm

Hmmm, my aunt has cancer and had to get a bone marrow transfusion to live. I am pretty sure if Qigong cured cancer she would have tried it immediately.

Qigong may promote good health and good well being, but I don't think it cures cancer.

[blooming lotus]

ok...I understand your sceptism and you are not alone...I distinctly remember reading an e-zine or kfm printed article on a water?? taiji?? fml master / shifu who suffered same and with help from several other qigong practioners coupled with her own efforts is now alive and kicking cancer free..........mind over matter is a popular strategey in dealing with ill-health...hence concept of placaebos....I would love to give you something to use but I may because of time, be out of my league.....please post a thread for gen. callout on tcm forum....alot of great medical minds visit here often...see you there....