stand-up grapplers, lets talk gripfighting

[Merryprankster]

let's talk about this oft neglected, but vital aspect of stand-up fighting. what do you like to do? how do you approach gripping and gripfighting? what is your immediate objective?

for gi work, I like to hit a lapel and sleeve grip but almost immediately transition to either a deep over the shoulder grip or an over the back belt grip. i'm EXTREMELY aggressive about controlling that sleeve, and breaking any grip you have on my dominant arm and lapel. i love when you break somebody's grip off and they clearly want to stop playing because their hands are burning like hell. I don't go in for working around other people's grips. i want your hands off. now. i am, of course, capable of doing so, just not preffered.

i usually get my preferred deep grip by shaking the **** out of you with vicious, repetitive snap-downs to break your structure. if you resist, i charge in to secure my grips and attack.

in no gi, if i'm not shooting, i like working from a collar and elbow, when i go for it, i take a step forward and slam my forearm into your chest to rock you back, then get my hand on the inside of your arm. if the opponent has flying elbows, i like the duck under/throwby combo to a body lock. if they are in, i prefer to shuck to a two on one and work a single. i've also had a lot of success with arm drags from wrist control, and snap downs to front headlocks.

i will gladly take a ****zer grip if offered and aggressively work to snap my opponent down for either uchi-mata or turn back in for a front headlock.

[red5angel]

i usually get my preferred deep grip by shaking the **** out of you with vicious, repetitive snap-downs to break your structure. if you resist, i charge in to secure my grips and attack.

MP - what are some of the ways you get countered on this tactic?


also, you lost me here -


if they are in, i prefer to shuck to a two on one and work a single. i've also had a lot of success with arm drags from wrist control, and snap downs to front headlocks.

"two on one?" "single?"

[ShaolinTiger00]

I refuse to reply on teh grounds that it may incriminate me.


:D

[Chang Style Novice]

This is all pretty cool, but I'm used to wearing a t-shirt, so it's not really an issue.

Got any no-gi gripfighting strategies to share?

[red5angel]

in no gi, if i'm not shooting, i like working from a collar and elbow, when i go for it, i take a step forward and slam my forearm into your chest to rock you back, then get my hand on the inside of your arm. if the opponent has flying elbows, i like the duck under/throwby combo to a body lock. if they are in, i prefer to shuck to a two on one and work a single. i've also had a lot of success with arm drags from wrist control, and snap downs to front headlocks.


Was this what you were looking for CSN?

[Merryprankster]

MP - what are some of the ways you get countered on this tactic?

they grip-break on my lapel hand. also, if i step in too hard, guys with good timing can throw you. that's why i shake the **** out of you.

two on one russian tie - looks like this, red has blue's arm across reds chest, controlling with two arms. hence, two on one. single is a single leg.

http://www.themat.com/technique/2on1footprop.gif

here too. http://www.themat.com/technique/2on1double/default.asp

st00's favorite grip,

five on one
reach around
shaking his hand like its on fire after a grip break
flying through the air and landing on his back

[ShaolinTiger00]

I refuse to reply on teh grounds that it may incriminate me.


:D

[ShaolinTiger00]

Buddy, we're going to buy you a helmet to match your jetpack, because when you come back I swear that I'm going to put you in orbit...

make boobie jokes about my wife ?

[Merryprankster]

too late. i already got a matching brace.

just call me rocket man

[ShaolinTiger00]

just call me rocket man

We've been doing that for years.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/totp2/features/wallpaper/images/1024/elton_john.jpg

[Chang Style Novice]

d'oh!

Must...read...more...CAREFULLY!

And learn more rasslin' vocab, although I think I got most of that.

[Merryprankster]

so, you ain't sharing your grips? but i already know em, you **** left-side gripper.

[Merryprankster]

make boobie jokes about my wife

i'll lay off, promise.

was that her in the bottom modeling pic?

[ShaolinTiger00]

I'm just ****ing with you.

as you know I'm a lefty and vs a righty I have no problem with letting him reach out and grab my lapel (to which he's ll think "that was easy" because with a swim under, I'll get the inside control and the power again.

If he's grip savvy then we go back and forth swimming for the inside control, so I've come up with a few other methods. including gripping low on his jacket and using it like a sode grip.

getting his opposite sleeve is always a little harder for the lefty because I'm perpendicular instead of parallel. If I want it bad enough I'm come in hard with ashi waza and close the gap to get it, of just go for a double lapel grip. double sleeve, over under..
hell I don't really care. as soon as i know I've got something I'm going to let it rip. before i was too passive. now I'm more aggressive and will bang away to make something happen.

[red5angel]

"sode grip?"

[Merryprankster]

yeah, that does accurately describe your gripping - you prefer to swim around grips - i'm frequently in ****zer situations w/you

[Merryprankster]

sode grip=sleeve grip.

i think

[ShaolinTiger00]

sode = sleeve. I'll pull the gi loose from the belt with a low lapel grip and push it back under the armpit making a nice lift "strap"

btw: that was not her, but in her modeling/acting days looked very similar and much hotter imho. remind me to point out some movies she's been in and you'll see some of the bikini shots.

[red5angel]

so start pointing out movies she's been in! :D

[FatherDog]

I only do no gi, so I know nothing about your funny pajama grips. :D

I like to start out with a wrist grip, and from their either try a quick armdrag to body lock or move to collar and elbow. From there I alternate between snapdowns to front headlocks and pummeling for underhooks; I do most of my takedowns from upper-body clinches.

[Merryprankster]

cross grab or same side wrist grip?

[IronFist]

Originally posted by red5angel
so start pointing out movies she's been in! :D

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by FatherDog
I alternate between snapdowns to front headlocks


What boneless wuss are you snapping into a front headlock?

[Knifefighter]

I like the over the back grip holding the same side sleeve used by a lot of Sambo players. From there, I'm pretty good at leg sweeps and scissor takedowns. Unfortunately, BJJ tourneys are starting to ban the scissor takedown because of too many ankle injuries from it.

No gi, I'm mostly a fireman's carry person from a double bicep or head & bicep, but I've been playing around with flying arm drags and low singles, a la John Smith.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
I'm mostly a fireman's carry person from a double bicep or head & bicep, but I've been playing around with flying arm drags and low singles, a la John Smith.

If you can do them like John Smith you'll be all set!

[ShaolinTiger00]

I like the over the back grip holding the same side sleeve used by a lot of Sambo players.

Which as why as soon as I feel this over the back (or high grip) I'm hitting the duckunder and going for ura nage, tani otoshi or a million other nasty things. my rule - if his elbow is above my chest - the duckunder is ON! and even if I don;t complete it, "popping" his elbow is usually enought to scare the bejesus out of him.

If he manages to get this grip the best thing to do is to keep turing square to him and setting him up. his angle is to quick to defend if you don't keep squaring up.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
cross grab or same side wrist grip?

Usually same side - if I get a cross-grab, I usually try to turn it into a Russian.


Originally posted by unkokusai



What boneless wuss are you snapping into a front headlock?

There are certain inherent advantages to being nearly six inches taller than most persons in one's weight class.

[Serpent]

My god, 90% of this thread is like reading ancient Greek.*



*No, I don't speak ancient Greek.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by FatherDog


There are certain inherent advantages to being nearly six inches taller than most persons in one's weight class.

You must be one skinny dude!:eek:

[Water Dragon]

I like the over the back grip into Diagonal Cut (O Soto) myself.

In a gi, I like to get a sleeve by the wrist and then pull in and take the lapel. Once I do, I'll slam you with the elbow of the arm that has lapel and pull with the hand that has sleeve to misalign the shoulders. From here I like to attack the foot with a reap, sweep, or 'shaving' (clip?)


Miguel is getting ready for a fight, so we are doing a lot more glove work right now. I'm having luck with a right jab-left cross-left shoulder and going immediately into a D. Cut or hip throw.

I'm also playing with right jab-left cross-right hook-turn down and right shoulder into either Kao or a single leg.

I'm really starting to explore shoulder work (pummeling) to set up my throws.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
sode = sleeve. I'll pull the gi loose from the belt with a low lapel grip and push it back under the armpit making a nice lift "strap"


Like in BJJ? You must tell us everything. Omit nothing.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by unkokusai


You must be one skinny dude!:eek:

I'm 6'4" and I walk around at 190. :D

[Merryprankster]

I like the over the back grip into Diagonal Cut (O Soto) myself.
do people ever turn the corner on you as a counter attack?

how aggressively do you fight for the righ grip or are you more content to take what comes?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00


Which as why as soon as I feel this over the back (or high grip) I'm hitting the duckunder and going for ura nage, tani otoshi or a million other nasty things. my rule - if his elbow is above my chest - the duckunder is ON! and even if I don;t complete it, "popping" his elbow is usually enought to scare the bejesus out of him.

If he manages to get this grip the best thing to do is to keep turing square to him and setting him up. his angle is to quick to defend if you don't keep squaring up.

no doubt. I live by that same rule.

[SevenStar]

I have two main grips I fight for - the standard lapel and collar, only I grab at the inside of the bicep - I have more leverage on his arm that way, and arm on the bicep with the other around his waist.

My main attacks are harai goshi, tai otoshi and hiza guruma, and the first grip facilitates all three. The second grip is for my harai - a quick slide in attack when the opportunity presents itself. There's also a third variation I do, but is much harder to get and maintain - instead of grabbing his bicep, I hook it and grab his opposite lapel. Using that and a pull on the untrapped arm, I can throw harai and tani.


I don't do o soto much, but when I do, I attack at an angle, placing both hands on the same lapel and using leverage from my bent arm in conjuntion with my driving leg to get the sweep.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Water Dragon

In a gi, I like to get a sleeve by the wrist and then pull in and take the lapel. Once I do, I'll slam you with the elbow of the arm that has lapel and pull with the hand that has sleeve to misalign the shoulders. From here I like to attack the foot with a reap, sweep, or 'shaving' (clip?)


I'm the opposite way - the guys I train with really get off on grip fighting, and if you reach for the sleeve, they will retract their arm. They will parry lapel grabbing attempts, but it's easier to get a lapel than a sleeve.

[Merryprankster]

7*

lot's of grip breaking at your place? my personal development has leaned heavily on attacking from a truly dominant grip - two on vs one on, etc.

water, i find it interesting that you'd go for a sleeve first. that doesn't work well around here. we really concentrate on ripping that thing off, or countering with a parry and lapel grip or opposite side lapel grip to yank you around and control your center. i rarely see that attack anymore. How do you avoid this?

[SevenStar]

I had no clue as to how in depth grip fighitng could be until I started working with these guys. One of my coaches (my original one) IS more of a traditional type teacher - he shows the textbook version of things, sometimes he'll show us modifications for competition. He was a 3 time national champ, but never competed international or world level

My other two coaches do compete at international and world levels, and are really big on gripfighting.

dunno if that has any bearing on it or not, but it's an odd coincidence

[Merryprankster]

7*

i think it's hugely important. once you've learned to throw decently, gripfighting is both the first line of offense and defense. the guys at the top are pretty much amazing at it.

[SevenStar]

definitely. When I first started training there, I couldn't get a solid grip, nuch less get a throw off. I was like wtf? For that reason, I've been trying do some of my throws from varying grips - They know what grips I prefer, and know I can't do much if I don't have them.

[SevenStar]

In WD's case, my first guess is they don't play on grip fighting much. At my other school, I can just walk up to to someone and get whatever grip I want.

[Merryprankster]

huh, that's different...my approach instead is to rip their hands off me, keep the sleeve so they can't get the lapel grip back and force them into a bad grip.

i suppose it's all the same, really.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Yesterday I got a chance to randori with two of the hardest training partners I have. One is a beast of a guy and the other is a mongolian wrestler, both are lefties so together everything that we commonly do to other judoka is completely out the window. For me it comes down to whoever gets his grip and reacts first usually wins. I was saved several times yesterday by good gripfighting. (and fast feet :D )

[Merryprankster]

i can't wait to get back with you guys and kick it around a little. you only thought i was training hard before!!!

[ShaolinTiger00]

No doubt bro!

Looking forward to it. We're only as good as the people around us to push you to the next level.

and anyways.. we're setting the next month of so of Sat morning practices to learn the nage no kata.. there is a pile of brownbelts who have to learn it for promotion who have been procrastinating..

[Merryprankster]

and anyways.. we're setting the next month of so of Sat morning practices to learn the nage no kata.. there is a pile of brownbelts who have to learn it for promotion who have been procrastinating..

BWHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

*snort*

*sniffle*

*sigh......*

so when i come back i'll be throwing black belts? even better!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
huh, that's different...my approach instead is to rip their hands off me, keep the sleeve so they can't get the lapel grip back and force them into a bad grip.


I do that also. I prefer to break grips.But there are instances where I've had a grip I could throw from, but since it wasn't "MY" grip, I would break and try to re-establish, when I coulda just thrown him the first time.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00

and anyways.. we're setting the next month of so of Sat morning practices to learn the nage no kata.. there is a pile of brownbelts who have to learn it for promotion who have been procrastinating..

LOL, i guess that must be a common thing across the board. We have been talking about the same thing.

[Merryprankster]

seven, gotcha:D

[ShaolinTiger00]

so when i come back i'll be throwing black belts? even better!

That's what I love about you.. that inexhaustible optimism..

Keep hope alive! :D

[SevenStar]

:D

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Merryprankster

do people ever turn the corner on you as a counter attack?


All the f****** time! It's frustrating.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


water, i find it interesting that you'd go for a sleeve first. that doesn't work well around here. we really concentrate on ripping that thing off, or countering with a parry and lapel grip or opposite side lapel grip to yank you around and control your center. i rarely see that attack anymore. How do you avoid this?

Don't forget that my gym is all BJJers and Wrestlers. They keep the arm out there against the shot, so the sleeve is just there for me to take. That is probably changing the game a little bit.

[Merryprankster]

wd, yeah, it sounded like duck-under, turn the corner city- field day! you aren't blocking off that side at all.

try this, as you go in for your over the back grip, hang your weight on them for a split second to slow their corner turn and make sure you're chest to chest, your right pec to their right pec type look, with elbow/upper arm gluing them to you. then lift in and up with a strong snap as they try to counter your force. that's going to shorten the distance you have to step for your diagonal cut, as well as make them float a little. at that point, your impact will really get them over your reaping leg. i realize you use the leg more like tai otoshi.

if they don't counter, bend them over and smash em to the mat or use a forward throw.

[SevenStar]

ttt

[scotty1]

This is an interesting thread.

Not something I've really thought about much yet as I just kind of do whatever happens at the moment, but an interesting read none the less.

[SevenStar]

definitely go with the moment - but at a given moment, your hands may not be in a position you can throw from, or you may be getting ready to be thrown. You want to maximize your throwing possibilities while minimizing his.

[MasterKiller]

What do you guys do to specifically train grip strength? I know the ol' CMA methods, but does modern training advocate anything different than gripping weights, bricks, etc...?

[SevenStar]

We don't where I train. Pretty much all of us are gym rats and between weight training, hand grippers and grabbing gis for hours, strengthen them that way.

[Water Dragon]

Belt Cracking

[SevenStar]

from what I've seen with modern schools, the toughening comes from the training itself, for the most part. sparring will get you used to taking hits, heavy bag and thai pads to condition the limbs, etc. as opposed to three star drills, belt cracking, iron palm and things that you do separately from the actual learning. I do do a moving three star drill that WD showed me a while ago though, at least once a week.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I do do a moving three star drill that WD showed me a while ago though, at least once a week.

What drill?

[SevenStar]

the moving one we did the last time I was up there - three hits, step past eachother, turn and three hits

[ShaolinTiger00]

three hits, step past eachother, turn and three hits

We used to do this in kung fu.

[SevenStar]

yeah, that's where it came from. the ones we did at my old school were stationary though

[Water Dragon]

Ya mean arm banging?

[SevenStar]

yup.

[bamboo_ leaf]

There is a drill called five star similar to that, that includes conditioning the backs of the calves.

(the moving one we did the last time I was up there - three hits, step past eachother, turn and three hits)

on the last up hit, you can grasp or hook with whats called a dill sow (for mantis guys) and condition the backs of the calves..

Each guys inner foot goes out on the last hit with the arm hooked to the other, the foot travles out like a kick and is retacted banging into the others back of the calve.

[Meat Shake]

We dont have any drills... We just bang forearms during techniques and applications... Back of your calves get tough from getting smashed by kirks shins.

[Merryprankster]

People, people...

GRIPS!!! :D

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
People, people...

GRIPS!!! :D

OK Kung Lek, we'll keep this on topic for ya ;)

[Merryprankster]

LOL!

[SevenStar]

fine, back to grips...

I have more control on the arm if I grab the gi at the bicep, as opposed to the elbow


Wait, haven't I already said that? Ah well...

[Merryprankster]

nah, you guys are totally correct. We've kind of exhausted this topic. There are other grips, of course, but it's all variations on a theme.

Take the grips on this page for instance:

http://www.delidivane.de/nuke50/im/uebersicht.php

I'm pretty sure I don't know much about these. Oh my.

[Water Dragon]

Well, I think that last post has finally answered the eternal question:

What is the Prankster so **** merry about anyway?

[Merryprankster]

Dude, don't ask me...I followed a link from Kung Lek's site.

It was just before the "1001 Incoherent Arguments" Link and right after "Contemplating your Navel; the secret to video tape training? Find out here!"

[ShaolinTiger00]

I have more control on the arm if I grab the gi at the bicep, as opposed to the elbow

I like to grip the back of the tricep.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00


I like to grip the back of the tricep.

Back of the elbow here. Use the elbow bone as a'handle'

[bamboo_ leaf]

(I usually get my preferred deep grip by shaking the **** out of you with vicious, repetitive snap-downs to break your structure. if you resist, i charge in to secure my grips and attack)

i just hope you washed your hands before you do that :cool:

[Nick Forrer]

'Back of the elbow here. Use the elbow bone as a'handle''

Me too. From underneath, Pincer the soft area between their bicep and tricep with your thumb on one side and your thumb side finger on the other.

Good for arm drags and off balancing.

[Merryprankster]

Nick,

If you use "meathooks" instead of your thumb, that grip works even better.

[No_Know]

MerryPrankster, I wonder if you have concern that someone might wind against your arm when you have their sleeve gripped after you 've knocked their hand off of you from their attempted lapel grab.

It seems that close to the joint gi grabs might offer tyhe best control. bicep Or tricep for movibng the shoulder. The bend fo the elbow or the forearm near the elbow to immobilize-ish the forearm and therefore limit that side hand also.

[Merryprankster]

No_Know,

Not really. I'm controlling down near their hand. The best they can do is make me let go and re-grip.

When I grip break, I maintain contact from the time I start the break and never let go with my control hand.

[No_Know]

If you maintain contact, I might wonder how they Make you let go.

[Merryprankster]

They bring their hand over top of my wrist. This is an inferior position for ME because it puts my hand at a funny angle and lack leverage. Unless my other grip is clearly dominant, I would then let go and try to wrist roll back over.

There are also single handed grip breaks you can use for it that work really well, once you know how.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
They bring their hand over top of my wrist. This is an inferior position for ME because it puts my hand at a funny angle and lack leverage.

You absolutely MUST learn hand wrapping. Ask ST00 to show you, as he is clearly so fond of Aikido locks.

[Merryprankster]

I'm pretty familiar with wrist manipulations. I use 'em plenty, but it might be new to me.

Describe it.

[Water Dragon]

He grabs your wrist, with intent.

You place your free hand on top of his, trapping his fingers between your hand and the wrist he has.

Depending on how he grabbed you, you are going to lock in the wrist with either the palm or elbow of the hand he grabbed you with.

This is the only wrist lock I have ever been able to pull off in standing. It works great if they commit themselves to the intitial grip.

It also works good when your in someone's guard. They grab your wrist while you are trying to pass. You go for the lock, they defend. Now you can hurry up and get your hands in place to break open the guard.

[Merryprankster]

Depending on how he grabbed you, you are going to lock in the wrist with either the palm or elbow of the hand he grabbed you with.

Huh?

[Water Dragon]

OK. I am placing my left hand in front of me on the table, so assume you are looking at the arm from that view.

If you grab my left hand with your right hand, both of our thumbs are on the same side. In this case, I will wrap your hand with mine and lock the pinky side of your wrist.

However, if you grab so that the thumb side of your hand is grabbing the pinky side of my left hand, then I need to use my forearm/elbow to lock the pinky side of your hand.

What is getting locked up is on the pinky side of the hand where the hand meets the wrist.

[Merryprankster]

OK. Gotcha. I've used something similar, probably not with the same intent.

WD, I just found a clip of me doing that russian 2 on 1 from the collar and elbow tie. Want it? It's only 500KB.

It's a little far away, but you can see my whole body, my arm position and the shuck I do.

[Water Dragon]

send it, please. thanks

[Merryprankster]

You've got hotmail.