Is Wing Chun Internal? [Archive] - Page 2

Sean66

07-14-2011, 02:48 AM

This whole external - internal debate is bogus, in my opinion.

Human movement does not exist alone in a void. Even every-day movement and body language is influenced by any number of factors; your cultural/social environment, your pyschological state of mind, your age and sex, etc.

How do you walk down the street when you're depressed? Or when you're on cloud nine after your first kiss from the babe down the block? I think everyone will agree that the movement quality of your walk will be very different in these two cases. Internal psychology influences external mechanics of movement. We experience it every day, in all our actions.

When we talk about martial technique, the connection between internal (intention, will) and external (mechanics, form) becomes even more evident. The very word "technique" when applied to movement presuposes an underlying idea or purpose. One has to make a conscious effort to learn and apply it. And, as I pointed out before in my example of fook sau, what you think about consciously while executing the movement will change its mechanical quaility.

In weight lifting it's pretty obvious as well. There is a technique to properly lifting weights if you don't want to injure yourself. And how you lift will influence how you work the different muscle groups. When you lift a barbell, are you concentrating on the muscle that's working? Are you lifting it up with a quick, impulse and then lowering slowly in a continuous movement? Or maybe the opposite? How you do it consciously...what you're thinking about while doing the movement...will change the quality and hence the (mechanical) results of the movement.

When the chinese talk about liu he, or the concept of six harmonies, this is really all that is meant. External coordination of the body working in tandem with intention/imagination. You can't seperate the two. As Tim Cartmell puts it :

"And the focused awareness of mind and body unity in practice is the method through which martial movements and techniques become internalized, and therefore useful. These principles and their method of internalization form the essence of martial art."

Hardwork108

07-14-2011, 03:34 AM

If I didnt like negative comments then that clip would not have been posted.
Perhaps you were hoping for positive comments?

You talk about "kung fu" rooting????? I think you are full of s**t! If kung fu rooting was so effective then boxers and MMA fighters would be using it.
To make kung fu rooting effective, you need to train kung fu and not boxing or MMA! LOL!

Boxing's own rooting is fine for boxers....and whatever the MMA people is good for their sports tournaments. NO arguments from me there, but you cannot practice boxing and modern MMA and then add kung fu rooting to it, because the fighters will be missing other TCMA aspects that combine with the rooting to make the TCMAs effective fighting methods.

Similarly, you can't train kung fu rooting and then hop around like a boxer when you fight. I mean, haven't you been reading my posts about IRRELEVANT crosstraining when you must avoid cross training in arts whose principles and concepts contradict your TCMA ones???

Christ, this is like conversing with a 5 year old's ego....

Stuck to the floor with mechanical movements as taught in most VT school is BS!! When somebody is trying to land strikes on you then you have to be agile and mobile.
So you think kung fu rooting is about being "stuck to the floor"?....LOL

I don't think you have been in a real fight before mate. You live in kung fu dreamland along with a lot of people on this forum. Ving Tsun is about fighting.
Yes, Wing Chun is about fighting, and we know that because the ancestors designed it that way, so perhaps it is a good idea to stick to their concepts and principles, don't you think?

Fortuneately for me it has got me through many scrapes. No amount of talking and writing can prepare you for that!!
No one is denying the effectiveness of what is basically a kick boxing approach, as regards real fighting.

It's a shame we live so far apart. I would have no problem in putting my money where my mouth is! ;)

GH

If you really had studied TCMAs then you would follow the old philosophy of first KNOWING your enemy, before putting your money where your big mouth is...;)

Hardwork108

07-14-2011, 03:40 AM

Help me??? Get real will you!! If that was all the help that was around I would be playing football instead of kung fu!!! lol

GH

You play kung fu?:eek:

Well, was that a Freudian slip? I say this because there are a lot of people in this forum that play kung fu, while they practice MT, BJJ and etc.

So, what happens is that their kickboxing and ground fighting improves while their kung fu does not.

In their minds this means that MT and BJ, etc. are effective, while the "kung fu" that they insist on playing only, isn't.....

Very interesting phenomenon.....

Hardwork108

07-14-2011, 03:43 AM

It IS Mechanical movements..... thats it!

If there was something more, some hidden internal seceret, dont you think all the Pro fighters in would be trying to use it? They would be looking for any advantage they could...... but they dont as its delusional nonsense

A lot (not all) of the internals are long term endeavors, while most sports fighting is not! Also, a lot of genuine masters (I hope that one day you meet one) will not teach these to just anyone.

You may believe or not, what I say, but it is true.

Hardwork108

07-14-2011, 03:54 AM

Why is it "force against force, and the strongest wins"and never "ïnternal power against internal power, and so the strongest wins"?

When brute force is put against brute force, then the strongest usually wins. When it is internal power against internal power, then the "softest" usually wins. If you understand that concept then you will begin to understand some certain Internal methodologies function.

Incidentally, if you touch hands with a genuine Chow gar stylist, then you will be surprised at how powerful they are, and that includes their Shock Power, which at least some lineages get without the use of any weight training - seen as counter productive as regards the training goals of the style.

"Why is one form of power subject to genetics and physical laws and the other not?

I would say that they are all subject to physical laws. Except that the Internals deal with physical laws that are on an advanced level to what the usual kickboxers study.

OH, rubbish. I suppose you think boxers and HW107.5's glorified kickboxers can't fight bareknuckle?
I don't think that anyone here is disputing the fact that External martial artists can fight.

You need to stop parroting all the crap you read on the net and do some critical thinking. Maybe test out this internal bull**** you've been sold. Take your own advice:

Make sure you have medical insurance first, though.

YiQuanOne, if you are reading this, then you will agree that it is very difficult to discuss things with people who have absolutly no point of reference, besides theri egos.....LOL!

Hardwork108

07-14-2011, 04:04 AM

Source? Evidence? Spelling?

Start with distinguishing between health and fitness first - not the same thing - and you will be enlightened.

LOL, so if your friends (if you have any) ask you to help them move house, I guess you'll be saying no, because lifting furniture and boxes will **** up your chi?
I believe that YiQuanOne was referring to REGULAR weight training, that will contradict what you are trying to achieve with the Internal methodologies.

I'm waiting to see an "internal" guy outthrow the deluded iron-pumping shotputters, discus, javelin, and hammer throwers or outsprint the deluded iron-pumping sprinters. Sure, they only "feel" strong.
The Internal guy will probably not out throw him, but will be able to put him down with a more efficient strike and from a shorter distance, at that! ;)

Sometimes, some of the stuff you guys spew out is what one might expect from a kung fu beginner.

What moron told you this rubbish? A "master"?

Wha YiQuanOne is saying is what even the Externalists study, by being relaxed and unifying their bodies when striking. However, the Internalists go a lot , lot deeper than that, as regards, both body unity and "softness", which means, less of their energy is trapped in the body, as more of it is released into the opponent.

Simple stuff, that is, if you have a point of reference. ;)

Hardwork108

07-14-2011, 04:06 AM

So you cant be a "fit" internalists??
You can do your Internal exercises and be strong and healthy. The advanced breathing exercises will also help your fitness. On top of that you can do certain cardio exercises, if you please. Just don't do things that contradict what you are trying to achieve with your Internal training.

Hardwork108

07-14-2011, 04:18 AM

Thats absolute nonsense.
Lets use the elderly outside of martial arts as a point of discussion
Its been catgorically proven that a weights regime for elderly people improves;
- Movement
- Strength
- Well being
- Vitality
- Heres a link, http://www.cdc.gov/physicalactivity/growingstronger/index.html
Theres scores of these studies.

Quantifiable, measurable results

I would suggest that you will get better results with tendon strenghening/developing exercises found in styles such as chow gar and pakmei (and others).

Oh lord.... further nonsense.
I dont even know where to begin with that
Oh lord, you have no idea of the these TCMA concepts, do you?

What YiQuanOne is saying is a common principle for those who train the Internals. The wrong kind of muscle mass can inhibit chi flow, as well as disconnect your internal body unity.

You would not know that, because again, you do not have a point of reference. Your only point of reference is you belief system which makes you treat our approach as a belief system, which it is not, as we PRACTICE it, while you don't.

So our (Internalists) comments as regards the INTERNALS are based on our INTERNAL practice, while your comments as regards the INTERNALS are based on your EXTERNAL practice. Do you now see why you are so lost?

I mean if you look at like I put it above, it is actually funny, as in a comedy of (your) errors way.....;)

LoneTiger108

07-14-2011, 05:13 AM

I don't think so. What do you think? Back it up with theories and actual fact, not preference or fond wishes.

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

I don't know about anyone else here, but if you look at the start date of this thread it was 10 YEARS AGO!

Are we all stuck in the past or something? Nothing NEW to discuss?? :o

GlennR

07-14-2011, 07:17 AM

Hardwork108;1114912]I would suggest that you will get better results with tendon strenghening/developing exercises found in styles such as chow gar and pakmei (and others).

Rubbish, show me a measured study

What YiQuanOne is saying is a common principle for those who train the Internals. The wrong kind of muscle mass can inhibit chi flow, as well as disconnect your internal body unity.

So thai leg kicking is by far the strongest strike measured in the martial art world.
Measured, quantifiable.
How does the internal "no weights training mantra" respond to that?

You would not know that, because again, you do not have a point of reference. Your only point of reference is you belief system which makes you treat our approach as a belief system, which it is not, as we PRACTICE it, while you don't.

No problem. Show me some measurable results and ill happily jump on your bandwagon. Im all for improved results

So our (Internalists) comments as regards the INTERNALS are based on our INTERNAL practice, while your comments as regards the INTERNALS are based on your EXTERNAL practice. Do you now see why you are so lost?

My opinion is beating on "internalists" that think they are special. How many do i need to beat on before im found?

I mean if you look at like I put it above, it is actually funny, as in a comedy of (your) errors way.....;)

Yes, i laugh myself silly when i beat on another one of you "experts"... shame you arent in the neighbourhood

YiQuanOne

07-14-2011, 07:24 AM

lesson is over!

Come back when your cup isn't so full!

GlennR

07-14-2011, 07:25 AM

lesson is over!

Come back when your cup isn't so full!

BWAHAHAHAHA

My cup runneth over from your excess chi !!!!!

SimonM

07-14-2011, 07:26 AM

You taught him nothing. Just mouthed the same old superstitious platitudes about magical Qi larping.

GlennR

07-14-2011, 07:28 AM

You taught him nothing. Just mouthed the same old superstitious platitudes about magical Qi larping.

thanks Simon... but im sure he has filled me with unlimited wisdom

LoneTiger108

07-14-2011, 07:37 AM

:rolleyes: It seems many here just love to criticize things they have no experience of, even 10 years after the discussion started :eek:

Let me ask all you scientific types a simple question...

What happens to the skin, tendons and bones of a body builder after many years of cultivating their shape and muscule tone? (without steroids!!)

What happens to the skin, tendons and bones of a Taichi practitioner after many years of cultivating their shape and muscle tone?

What is it that drives this 'body changing' process?

GlennR

07-14-2011, 07:44 AM

=LoneTiger108;1115009]:rolleyes: It seems many here just love to criticize things they have no experience of, even 10 years after the discussion started :eek:

Experienced it, trounced it... next question

Let me ask all you scientific types a simple question...

What happens to the skin, tendons and bones of a body builder after many years of cultivating their shape and muscule tone? (without steroids!!)

What happens to the skin, tendons and bones of a Taichi practitioner after many years of cultivating their shape and muscle tone?

What is it that drives this 'body changing' process?

Ok, ill bite.... do tell

LoneTiger108

07-14-2011, 07:45 AM

Experienced it, trounced it... next question

Experienced it with who exactly?

Ok, ill bite.... do tell

Read it again my friend. It's a question for you to answer... :eek:

SimonM

07-14-2011, 07:48 AM

Ok, ill bite.... do tell

With External: You age wither and die!!!!!

With internal: ETERNAL LIFE plus you can fly with qinggong.

GlennR

07-14-2011, 07:49 AM

]Experienced it with who exactly?

Every WC internalists thats tried to tell me im missing the "internal way"

Read it again my friend. It's a question for you to answer... :eek

Ill pass..... im not really interested in the variance in skin between various people

LoneTiger108

07-14-2011, 07:55 AM

I've met a few wild cases myself dude, but your negative reply is noted.

YiQuanOne

07-14-2011, 07:56 AM

For all you guys that want the study, all I can say is follow the money.

Who would fund this study, how could some one benifit by telling you not to buy this drug or buy this gym equipment, they can't, people want to fund studies that sell their product.

If you don' t believe that, well good luck!

It must be nice to experence something without experenceing it.

Have fun not experenceing experence.

GlennR

07-14-2011, 07:58 AM

SimonM

07-14-2011, 07:58 AM

YiQuanOne

07-14-2011, 08:18 AM

So.....

The skimaster is using the "big gym" money to cover up any studies demonstrating internal is better.

This reality you live in, it is not our own, is it?

Go back under your rock, and troll somewhere that you have experence.

Folloooowwww thheeeee moneeeeeyyyy!!!!!!!!!

SimonM

07-14-2011, 08:23 AM

There you go making assumptions again.

YiQuanOne

07-14-2011, 08:34 AM

There you go making assumptions again.

If you have experence it does not show, so all I can conclude is your experence was not the same as our experence.

We went here you went there.

It is not a religion, you either got something from it or you didn't.

If you did not find anything you probably went to the wrong place.

Just because you got lost, dosen't mean everyone gets lost, check your map and see where you made the wrong turn.

SimonM

07-14-2011, 08:43 AM

If you have experence it does not show, so all I can conclude is your experence was not the same as our experence.

We went here you went there.

It is not a religion, you either got something from it or you didn't.

If you did not find anything you probably went to the wrong place.

Just because you got lost, dosen't mean everyone gets lost, check your map and see where you made the wrong turn.

See to the beam in thine own eye etc etc etc.

YiQuanOne

07-14-2011, 08:46 AM

See to the beam in thine own eye etc etc etc.

Well your eyes are blind, someone has to see!

SimonM

07-14-2011, 09:04 AM

Yes, I am entirely blind to the conspiracy to conceal the superiority of internal from the world... oh wait, that is because there isn't one!

YiQuanOne

07-14-2011, 09:39 AM

Yes, I ask entirely billing of the conspiracy to conceal the superiority of internal from the world...oh wait, that is because there isn't one!

I don't care if you don't want to learn, that is your problem!

Go troll where you have some real experence.

SimonM

07-14-2011, 11:02 AM

I don't care if you don't want to learn, that is your problem!

Go troll where you have some real experence.

Please do tell me about the bowflex conspiracy to conceal the TRUTH about internal. I want to learn about this. :D

anerlich

07-14-2011, 02:48 PM

Let me ask all you scientific types a simple question...

What happens to the skin, tendons and bones of a body builder after many years of cultivating their shape and muscule tone? (without steroids!!)

They are in great shape at age 76. (without steroids!!)

What happens to the skin, tendons and bones of a Taichi practitioner after many years of cultivating their shape and muscle tone?

In Cheng Man-Ching's case, they die at 73. CMC is still in fantastic shape if you overlook the fact that he's dead. That internal sh*t rocks, doesn't it?

What is it that drives this 'body changing' process?

Ageing, climate change, Obama being born outside the US, and the News of the World phone hacking, obviously.

How's the five elements study going, Spence? For a self proclaimed expert you had a long way to go last time we discussed this.

It must be nice to experence something without experenceing it.

I haven't experenced :rolleyes: anything. I did experience/endure more than five years of Neijia training under a HK and Taiwan certified acupuncturist and Neijia practitioner. I'm certain I have more experience in these matters than the "ïnternal masters" pontificating on this thread.

Of course, my study of the internal arts resulted in my being continually harassed and intimidated by bodybuilders, pharmacists, Western doctors, Dan John, Mel Siff, Joe Wieder, Richard Dawkins, the entire Gracie family, Olympic athletes, members of every pro sports team on earth, Carl Sagan from beyond the grave, etc.

YiQuanZero is telling the truth! There is a monster anti-internal conspiracy run by the Illuminati to harvest our dead souls for consumption by aliens from another dimension!

YiQuanOne

07-14-2011, 02:59 PM

I haven't experenced :rolleyes: anything. I did experience/endure more than five years of Neijia training under a HK and Taiwan certified acupuncturist and Neijia practitioner. I'm pretty sure I have more experience in these matters than the "ïnternal masters" pontificating on this thread.

Don't get mad at the people who had a good experence because you had a bad experence, look to your so called expert and then into the mirror and blame your bad experence on them.

It is probably the one in the mirror.

anerlich

07-14-2011, 03:12 PM

Don't get made at the people who had a good experence

I'm not getting made.

jesper

07-14-2011, 03:38 PM

I'm not getting made.

remade perhaps :D

GlennR

07-14-2011, 03:57 PM

Don't get made at the people who had a good experence because you had a bad experence, look to your so called expert and then into the mirror and blame your bad experence on them.

It is probably the one in the mirror.

He's coming from a point of experience.
And from that experience he has found a better way.

I cant speak for Andrew, but, for myself the problem with you "internalists" is the totally non-realistic way you judge if your training is effective.

Ive heard.... (on this thread amongst other things)
- I feel stronger
- the way to win is be "softer"
- Internal health practices are better than external.... yet the evidence (world wide scientific) would prove otherwise
- You will feel like you are hitting hard but you actually arent as the external training is counteractive to the outcome

Nonsense. All of it.

I have no problem with guys going down the internal path if thats what they want to do.
Just dont tell the folks that bust their butts, spar, get injured and just plain put in year after year that they are "missing something"

If you want to go to an authority , here is a short essay by TST about force generation. Yips oldest and longest standing student, renowned for his ability to generate force

http://www.tstvingtsun.bc.ca/HiddenPowerOfSNT_remix.html

Notice how he explains things?

Doesnt just say its internal and it will work, but he has a logical expalanation which can lead to a measurable outcome.

GlennR

07-14-2011, 03:59 PM

remade perhaps :D

Maybe he'd like a maid? ;)

WC1277

07-14-2011, 04:27 PM

Hey Glenn, that's an excellent article by TST. I've had it explained to me in a very similar way

GlennR

07-14-2011, 04:37 PM

Hey Glenn, that's an excellent article by TST. I've had it explained to me in a very similar way

Yes, i like his stuff.
Not magical or mystical....... straight, logical explanation without elitist posturing

YiQuanOne

07-14-2011, 04:37 PM

He's coming from a point of experience.
And from that experience he has found a better way.

I cant speak for Andrew, but, for myself the problem with you "internalists" is the totally non-realistic way you judge if your training is effective.

Ive heard.... (on this thread amongst other things)
- I feel stronger
- the way to win is be "softer"
- Internal health practices are better than external.... yet the evidence (world wide scientific) would prove otherwise
- You will feel like you are hitting hard but you actually arent as the external training is counteractive to the outcome

Nonsense. All of it.

I have no problem with guys going down the internal path if thats what they want to do.
Just dont tell the folks that bust their butts, spar, get injured and just plain put in year after year that they are "missing something"

If you want to go to an authority , here is a short essay by TST about force generation. Yips oldest and longest standing student, renowned for his ability to generate force

http://www.tstvingtsun.bc.ca/HiddenPowerOfSNT_remix.html

Notice how he explains things?

Doesnt just say its internal and it will work, but he has a logical expalanation which can lead to a measurable outcome.

That's not my teacher, if he does not have it that's his fault, most people don't know what it is! that is why they sound like you guys, they think they are not missing something.

And Yes, the persons that bust their ass do all that external stuff are missing something! I wish I could have told them sooner that you are destroying your body, and there is another engine system that does not go away with age or non use, you just need to turn it on.

Its kind of like pedaling an electric bike all those years because you did not know where the on switch was.

I am glad I was lucky enough to meet someone years ago that showed me another way or else I would be still be doing the same thing you are doing now.

We have the internet now, so now we can share, isn't this nice!.

GlennR

07-14-2011, 04:41 PM

That's not my teacher, if he does not have it that's his fault, most people don't know what it is! that is why they sound like you guys, they think they are not missing something.

And Yes, the persons that bust their ass do all that external stuff are missing something! I wish I could have told them sooner that you are destroying your body, and there is another engine system that does not go away with age or non use, you just need to turn it on.

Its kind of like pedaling an electric bike all those years because you did not know where the on switch was.

I am glad I was lucky enough to meet someone years ago that showed me another way or else I would be still be doing the same thing you are doing now.

We have the internet now, so now we can share, isn't this nice!.

Ok, so TST doesnt get it??
This gets better and better.

Im a bit confused in regards to you... do you practice WC??

WC1277

07-14-2011, 04:52 PM

I think what Glenn is trying to say after following this obnoxiously long thread is that what many think is internal, at least in regards to WC, is nothing more than body mechanics and mastering one's center of gravity. It's not magical nor dogmatic. While a clear mind that comes from something like Tai Chi can help you focus on these aspects of WC, it's not part of the system itself. At least not in the teaching of it, you'll receive health/Chi benefits just from doing WC properly. No magic needed

YiQuanOne

07-14-2011, 05:02 PM

generate force

http://www.tstvingtsun.bc.ca/HiddenPowerOfSNT_remix.html

Notice how he explains things?

Doesnt just say its internal and it will work, but he has a logical expalanation which can lead to a measurable outcome.

If that is Leng Ting

That guy is not Yip Man's number one student, by far, most senior student don't even know him.

He is more self promoted and definitly not internal.

If you think he is internal you are really clue less.

If you want to find a good sifu, it won't be the ones promoting themself's for glory and money.

It will be the one's that has very few students and is not making a living teaching.

But whatever you like to do that makes you happy is what counts.

You can go on crying that I am wrong, and demanding prove, go find your own proof, I don't need to prove it to you I have found my own proof.

Hardwork will be your proof, or find someone that has it, you need to do that part, I can just let you know it is not fake.

YiQuanOne

07-14-2011, 05:19 PM

Ok, so TST doesnt get it??
This gets better and better.

Im a bit confused in regards to you... do you practice WC??

I think Yip Man might have learned internal, I don't think he passed it on if he knew it.

It looks like the branches of WC before Yip Man were internal and some passed it on, but it only takes one link to break the chain.

If you look at the WC sets, they are all set up to pass along the internal, but most people only know how to do them externally.

But style is not important, it is only a tool you use to fix yourself. But I think WC is a very good efficent tool compared to other tools from other styles.

YiQuanOne

07-14-2011, 05:39 PM

Ok, so TST doesnt get it??
This gets better and better.

Im a bit confused in regards to you... do you practice WC??

That is TST, I did not know he called it Ving Tung.

We took TST out to dinner when we were in HK in the early 90's.

I have TST's book, he does use mind intent all through it.

If you follow internal, the mind Yi, leeds the Qi, to connection, so whats the problem.

When you are internal, you do not feel stronger, the other people feel that you are strong. You don't feel like you are being strong at all.

If you do feel strong in yourself, you are being external, the energy is trapped in you.

The internal guy is the opposite, the energy passes through them to the opponent.

GlennR

07-14-2011, 06:11 PM

GlennR

07-14-2011, 06:12 PM

That is TST, I did not know he called it Ving Tung.

We took TST out to dinner when we were in HK in the early 90's.

I have TST's book, he does use mind intent all through it.

If you follow internal, the mind Yi, leeds the Qi, to connection, so whats the problem.

When you are internal, you do not feel stronger, the other people feel that you are strong. You don't feel like you are being strong at all.

If you do feel strong in yourself, you are being external, the energy is trapped in you.

The internal guy is the opposite, the energy passes through them to the opponent.

You really have no idea do you?

Ok, ill leave you to your internal training

GlennR

07-14-2011, 06:14 PM

If that is Leng Ting

That guy is not Yip Man's number one student, by far, most senior student don't even know him.

He is more self promoted and definitly not internal.

If you think he is internal you are really clue less.

If you want to find a good sifu, it won't be the ones promoting themself's for glory and money.

It will be the one's that has very few students and is not making a living teaching.

But whatever you like to do that makes you happy is what counts.

You can go on crying that I am wrong, and demanding prove, go find your own proof, I don't need to prove it to you I have found my own proof.

Hardwork will be your proof, or find someone that has it, you need to do that part, I can just let you know it is not fake.

Try reading the article and the name of the auther moron..... got a chi blockage in the brain perhaps?

Dragonzbane76

07-14-2011, 06:17 PM

When you are internal, you do not feel stronger, the other people feel that you are strong. You don't feel like you are being strong at all.

If you do feel strong in yourself, you are being external, the energy is trapped in you.

The internal guy is the opposite, the energy passes through them to the opponent.

haha gave me a laugh. :)

http://www.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://images.wikia.com/streetfighter/images/1/1e/Ryu-hadoken-artwork.png&sa=X&ei=f5QfTqrxKMPhsQLprbXHDQ&ved=0CAQQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNH4efSKIeKffqHDsZMP05JF3NE2MA

"what the hell is a dim mak?"
"Def touch...."

http://www.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_CjiSVTmjV-k/SqnHuvQTHFI/AAAAAAAAAB8/HHr0WxPZTlM/s320/dim%2Bmak.jpg&sa=X&ei=w5QfTqfgOIyNsALHx6SgAw&ved=0CAQQ8wc4LA&usg=AFQjCNE7a5k4AZ36b7NKHHFxUBlXWnrUHQ

the reason KF gets a bad name right here folks.

anerlich

07-14-2011, 06:23 PM

Bringing Wuxia to the future of Canada. Read "In the Shadow of Fallen Towers," Canada's first post apocalyptic Wuxia web-novel now at http://Simon-McNeil.Blogspot.Com

Hey Simon, I started reading this - pretty good so far!

anerlich

07-14-2011, 06:28 PM

We took TST out to dinner when we were in HK in the early 90's.

I went to a hamburger joint with Rigan Machado once! And I went to a taiji school in Taipei in the early '80's! Held my own with one of their guys in push hands and all!

YiQuanOne

07-14-2011, 07:32 PM

Try reading the article and the name of the auther moron..... got a chi blockage in the brain perhaps?

Ya Ya, ok I skimmed it, saying the same thing as internal engine, does not mean you can do internal engine, unless you have done the internal development.

It does not say anything about lifting weights, doing aerobics, punching heavy bag, because those thing don't help internal development.

He says do SLT for a long time.

You need to read yourself.

What is intent?, he does leave a lot out of article.

I don't know where you guys live, it will probabally be hard to find someone willing to share with guys like you.

So just go back to the external and pretend their is nothing else.
I can forget you.

GlennR

07-14-2011, 07:39 PM

Ya Ya, ok I skimmed it, saying the same thing as internal engine, does not mean you can do internal engine, unless you have done the internal development.

It does not say anything about lifting weights, doing aerobics, punching heavy bag, because those thing don't help internal development.

He says do SLT for a long time.

You need to read yourself.

What is intent?, he does leave a lot out of article.

I don't know where you guys live, it will probabally be hard to find someone willing to share with guys like you.

So just go back to the external and pretend their is nothing else.
I can forget you.

Yes, please forget me..... its like talking to a 7 year old

bennyvt

07-14-2011, 07:47 PM

GlennR

07-14-2011, 07:54 PM

so what would people class visualizing the forms. I learnt this as part of the psycology of sport. Just doing it in your head so as to correct to train the brain to do the precise movement. Would you call that an internal way of learning?

Hey Benny.... to me this is a pretty good take on it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_visualization

Oh, and had Nathan come down fom the Central Coast last night and we went and trained at Beau's

Had a great night

anerlich

07-14-2011, 08:09 PM

I don't know where you guys live

Hint - look at the Location: at the top of the post. Hard to find, isn't it?

it will probabally be hard to find someone willing to share with guys like you

Not as hard as it would be for this supposed someone to convince me that he had anything worth sharing.

I can forget you.

So go away already.

so what would people class visualizing the forms. I learnt this as part of the psycology of sport. Just doing it in your head so as to correct to train the brain to do the precise movement. Would you call that an internal way of learning?

As you say, this is pretty standard sports psychology. You could call it internal, but then you'd have to agree that what most elite sportsmen on the planet do is internal, which the internal elitists here would have a hard time dealing with, I imagine. Hard to feel special when everyone else does the same thing.

YiQuanOne

07-14-2011, 08:11 PM

Yes, please forget me..... its like talking to a 7 year old

Its more like the handicapped from my side!.

YiQuanOne

07-14-2011, 08:17 PM

Not as hard as it would be for this supposed someone to convince me he isn't a total airhead.

.

Your the one with the questions, I could care less if you are convinced, your loss not mine.

Go back to your flat earth.

anerlich

07-14-2011, 08:34 PM

Your the one with the questions

No, you're the one claiming to have answers to questions no one is asking.

I could care less if you are convinced

You argue a hell of a lot for someone who doesn't care. But not convincingly.

I thought you were going to take your bat and ball and go home a while back. Don't let me stop you.

YiQuanOne

07-14-2011, 08:49 PM

No, you're the one claiming to have answers to questions no one is asking.

You argue a hell of a lot for someone who doesn't care. But not convincingly.

I thought you were going to take your bat and ball and go home a while back. Don't let me stop you.

This is an internal thread, go back to your external threads and stop trolling where you have no experence, it shows.

I'm sure there are people that are not as negative as you when it comes to learning something new.

I am not saying things that are not well known, you should do some research on your own.

GlennR

07-14-2011, 08:56 PM

This is an internal thread, go back to your external threads and stop trolling where you have no experence, it shows.

I'm sure there are people that are not as negative as you when it comes to learning something new.

I am not saying things that are not well known, you should do some research on your own.

The thread is "is Wing Chun Internal?". Its a question.
That would invite people who both support or oppose that idea.

To say that anyone who opposes the idea, has no idea or experience regarding internal studies, is ignorant at the very least

So you cant read where people are located and cant comprehend the topic of the thread.

Do you need some reading and comprehension lessons?

YiQuanOne

07-14-2011, 09:24 PM

The thread is "is Wing Chun Internal?". Its a question.
That would invite people who both support or oppose that idea.

To say that anyone who opposes the idea, has no idea or experience regarding internal studies, is ignorant at the very least

So you cant read where people are located and cant comprehend the topic of the thread.

Do you need some reading and comprehension lessons?

You are one of those guys that thinks "internal" does not exist.

The question asks if WC is internal , not whether "internal exists ?".

GlennR

07-14-2011, 09:37 PM

You are one of those guys that thinks "internal" does not exist.

The question asks if WC is internal , not whether "internal exists ?".

Well if internal doesnt exist how can it be in WC?????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!

Leading to, no its not internal!!!!!

So your way of thinking is that i must believe internal exists for it NOT to be in WC??

Are you on crack?

YiQuanOne

07-14-2011, 09:44 PM

Well if internal doesnt exist how can it be in WC?????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!

Leading to, no its not internal!!!!!

So your way of thinking is that i must believe internal exists for it NOT to be in WC??

Are you on crack?

No, but sounds like you are.

Yes, WC is "internal" but most people do the "external" version like youuuuuuuu!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Because they don't know what "internal" isssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GlennR

07-14-2011, 09:52 PM

No, but sounds like you are.

Yes, WC is "internal" but most people do the "external" version like youuuuuuuu!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Because they don't know what "internal" isssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know what it isnt...... an effective quanitfiable means of combat, WC in this case.

Now go have another puff

wolf3001

07-14-2011, 10:30 PM

I think Wing Chun is a combination.

anerlich

07-14-2011, 10:35 PM

I'm sure there are people that are not as negative as you when it comes to learning something new.

Hmmm.

Bac Fu Do KF starting 1977.

Meditation and other occult stuff with a theosophical group c. 79-81.

taiji/xingyi/bagua 1981-1987. Accupressure course and diploma c. 1985.

Wing Chun 1989-

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu 1999-

MMA 2006-2009

I daresay I'm way more open than you and your ilk to learning new stuff.

BTW, the crap you're going on about isn't new to me AT ALL. I meet internal "experts" all the time who can't explain five element theory, the eight trigrams or basic TCM concepts. I'm betting I know much more about it than you.

This is an internal thread, go back to your external threads and stop trolling where you have no experence, it shows.

This is getting annoying. It's

EXPERIENCE

with an I, OK?

Hardwork108

07-15-2011, 12:32 AM

Hmmm.

Bac Fu Do KF starting 1977.

Meditation and other occult stuff with a theosophical group c. 79-81.

taiji/xingyi/bagua 1981-1987. Accupressure course and diploma c. 1985.

Wing Chun 1989-

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu 1999-

MMA 2006-2009

I daresay I'm way more open than you and your ilk to learning new stuff.

BTW, the crap you're going on about isn't new to me AT ALL. I meet internal "experts" all the time who can't explain five element theory, the eight trigrams or basic TCM concepts. I'm betting I know much more about it than you.

This is getting annoying. It's

EXPERIENCE

with an I, OK?

Studying all of the above in a Mcdojo does not count. Nor does it count when you are studying it with people who are not willing to share the knowledge with you, for obvious reasons, I might add. ;)

Hardwork108

07-15-2011, 12:34 AM

I think Wing Chun is a combination.

I would go further and say that all major kung fu styles are a combintation of Internal and External (Yin/Yang). The proportions will differ according to a given style, but they are there and they COMPLIMENT each other as far as the art and its EFFECTIVENESS are concerned.

Hardwork108

07-15-2011, 12:35 AM

I know what it isnt...... an effective quanitfiable means of combat, WC in this case.

Now go have another puff

Study the Internals first, before you make any more clueless comments. :rolleyes:

Hardwork108

07-15-2011, 12:37 AM

Well if internal doesnt exist how can it be in WC?????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!

Leading to, no its not internal!!!!!

So your way of thinking is that i must believe internal exists for it NOT to be in WC??

Are you on crack?

What YiQuanOne is actually saying is that you are trolling this thread cluelessly, without a point of reference. ;)

GlennR

07-15-2011, 12:46 AM

What YiQuanOne is actually saying is that you are trolling this thread cluelessly, without a point of reference. ;)

God knows what he's saying.
Though you seem to think like him so i'll put you in the fantasy fu boys club with him.

GlennR

07-15-2011, 12:48 AM

Study the Internals first, before you make any more clueless comments. :rolleyes:

Prove me wrong fu boy.

As your friend in fantasy would say.... show me the money

Hardwork108

07-15-2011, 12:52 AM

Rubbish, show me a measured study

Hear is a measured study. You be the scholar and find a genuine Internalist sifu and ask him to thump you on your skull. It should not be too difficult to convince him, knowing your "charmingness".......

So thai leg kicking is by far the strongest strike measured in the martial art world.
Measured, quantifiable.
How does the internal "no weights training mantra" respond to that?
If you were really interested then you would seek a qualified master and ask him personally. The problem is that you guys are not really interested as you have made up your minds. So what you are doing here is trolling with your predictable clueless admiration of MT, BJJ and MMA.

No problem with that either, except for the fact that you should go and admire all that none- TCMA stuff in a none TCMA thread. Sounds logical, doesn't it? I mean it is not rocket science or Internal training, things that are way above your heads....it is common logic - go to MMA forums and pat each other's backs for discovering the "true" martial arts.....

No problem. Show me some measurable results and ill happily jump on your bandwagon. Im all for improved results

Why should I show you measurable results? I found my own measurable results, if you were INTERESTED then you would go and find it, or at least try to and not in an internet forum but a genuine kung fu kwoon (if they let you in, that is LOL).

My opinion is beating on "internalists" that think they are special. How many do i need to beat on before im found?
You could not beat a genuine Internalist if your life depended on it. That means you would get killed!

Yes, i laugh myself silly when i beat on another one of you "experts"... shame you arent in the neighbourhood

Listen, instead of talking BS from behind the safety of your key board, get up and go to your local China Town and spread the word that you are looking for some Internalist sifus and masters to beat up.

No need to say, that you should write will before hand and make any organ donations and so on clear in writing. Actually, you could leave your brain to Science Fiction! LOL!

Hardwork108

07-15-2011, 12:55 AM

God knows what he's saying.
Though you seem to think like him so i'll put you in the fantasy fu boys club with him.

Well, we are talking from references, that come from experience. While what you say is based on your experience of the EXTERNAL APPROACH - That means you have no reference or genuine experience of the training methodologies discussed.

That my dear, puts you in the fanatasy knucklhead Fu club. ;)

EternalSpring

07-15-2011, 12:56 AM

Hardwork108

07-15-2011, 12:56 AM

Prove me wrong fu boy.

As your friend in fantasy would say.... show me the money

NO can "prove you wrong" on the internet. Take your money and your B@lls to your local China Town and ask for proof.:cool:

Hardwork108

07-15-2011, 12:59 AM

I didn't read all the posts in this thread (forgive me but I'm a noob compared to most of you here), but I think Ving Tsun def is internal in many ways. There seems to be a maxim on Siu Nim Tao that says that Siu Nim Tao trains internal power (and at least as far as Yip Man Ving Tsun goes, "siu nim tao not good, ving tsun not good." Kim Yeung Mah is used by other styles as well, for example, southern mantis, which imho seems like an internal style as well.

A lot of people train Siu Nim Tao with "reverse breathing" as well, which is usually used in internal arts (from what i know)

I think overall that it encompasses both internal and external aspects (hard and soft).

Thank you. A good and logical post.

However, let me warn you. Many who post here are nothing but "kung fu tagged" kickboxers and MMA-ists, who would not know genuine kung fu methodolgies, even if they fell on their heads. So, that is why we are needlessly arguing with a bunch of people here who have as much knowledge of Internal kung fu methodolgies as chimpanzees do regarding Astro Physics.

Thanks again. I agree with your post.:)

EternalSpring

07-15-2011, 01:01 AM

I would go further and say that all major kung fu styles are a combintation of Internal and External (Yin/Yang). The proportions will differ according to a given style, but they are there and they COMPLIMENT each other as far as the art and its EFFECTIVENESS are concerned.

agreed! Anyone who says a style is purely internal is contradicting the concept of yin yang imho.

EternalSpring

07-15-2011, 01:03 AM

Thank you. A good and logical post.

However, let me warn you. Many who post here are nothing but "kung fu tagged" kickboxers and MMA-ists, who would not know genuine kung fu methodolgies, even if they fell on their heads. So, that is why we are needlessly arguing with a bunch of people here who have as much knowledge of Internal kung fu methodolgies as chimpanzees do regarding Astro Physics.

Thanks again. I agree with your post.:)

Yea, in my case what i realized was that if a lot of the people here are telling the truth about their lineage, then they're in the generation of my sifu or sigong, so I just usually stay quiet if anyone adamantly opposes what i say (which hasn't really happened yet because i haven't posted much) for respect purposes :p

YouKnowWho

07-15-2011, 01:59 AM

It's funny to see people want their style to be "internal" as if "internal" is superior than "external".

LoneTiger108

07-15-2011, 02:07 AM

How's the five elements study going, Spence? For a self proclaimed expert you had a long way to go last time we discussed this.

Y'know, for a martial artists you can be a real numpty! :o

Please, for everyones benefit, tell us where I have claimed to be an 'expert' in 5 elements??

You mean because I teach using the 5 elements? Or was taught how they relate directly to my Wing Chun learning?? You know this is all regarded as 'common knowledge' don't you? You don't need to have a degree in TCM to understand this, and those who proclaim to be experts, like yourself, sometimes miss the point completely.

Sorry for your confusion about such things. My experience is embedded in my Wing Chun learning whereas yours has come from other sources. Great that may have been for you, but I'm quite happy in my inexperienced, amateur understanding thank you.

Graham H

07-15-2011, 02:14 AM

Here are the five elements that we "CAN PROVE" from reading this thread.....

1. Horse dung
2. Cow dung
3. Sheep sh1t
4. Dog sh1t
5. Cat sh1t

These are five valuable elements that are needed when posting comments like has been on this thread. They are part of the "Kuen Sh1t". More readily available than the made up nonsense kung fu ones! :D :p

GH

LoneTiger108

07-15-2011, 02:27 AM

Each to his own 'sh!t' dude ;) But a funny post regardless!

anerlich

07-15-2011, 04:43 AM

Please, for everyones benefit, tell us where I have claimed to be an 'expert' in 5 elements??

On your own thread you just resurrected, you knob. :p What a maroon.

My experience is embedded in my Wing Chun learning whereas yours has come from other sources.

That would explain your relative ignorance of the subject.

At least, unlike some, you know how to spell "experience". Unless "experence" is some arcane internal concept.

SimonM

07-15-2011, 06:27 AM

Hey Simon, I started reading this - pretty good so far!

Thanks Anerlich! :D

LoneTiger108

07-15-2011, 06:39 AM

On your own thread you just resurrected, you knob. :p What a maroon.

Really 'knob'??? Show me where I claim to be an 'expert' in my posts.

Man, I can't stand people who try to put words into my mouth when they obviously have issues reading in the first place. And you have a Degree!!?? :eek:

And FWIW I'm FAR from ignorant on the subject. You may want to tarnish the WSL/PB crowd with that brush, but please... maybe you should learn more about my own Sigung and Sifu?

SimonM

07-15-2011, 06:50 AM

I have no problem with guys going down the internal path if thats what they want to do.
Just dont tell the folks that bust their butts, spar, get injured and just plain put in year after year that they are "missing something"

Bingo! Give this man a prize!

I personally, after practising a lot of martial arts, and reading a lot of books on the history of martial arts, the philosophical and religious traditions out of which they developed and the historical concept within which they developed began to doubt that "internal" was anything more than a modern appellation to three disparate arts.

Xingyiquan is a very practical spear art adapted to bare hands. The thrust-and-twist power generation that constantly comes up in Xingyi isn't a reference back to a byzantine Taoist yin/yang metaphysical dichotomy, it is how any sensible person stabs with a spear.

Plain And Simple.

Taijiquan, on the other hand, is pretty much indivisible from the Taoist metaphysical aspects built up around it. In fact, so much attention has been given to the metaphysics that it is entirely divorced from any sort of martial root, having become a good, low impact, method of keeping fit while practising meditation-in-movement.

Bagua is about half-way between these two extremes, it includes Taoist metaphysics but retains a fair bit of the original wrestling and locking content that it was intended for.

Circle walking isn't the wisest course of action on a battlefield (in fact it'll get you dead fast) but in a duel being to change angles rapidly could have been of use, suggesting that Bagua may have evolved out of gentlemanly duelling arts as well as a grapple / lock basis.

Considering the significance of standing locks and arm control to sword and knife practices this actually makes a certain amount of sense and, when perceived through this filter, provides a rational basis for how we might have ended up with something anomalous such as Bagua.

Please don't think I'm ignorant of the creation myths for each of these arts. I know them in detail. I just don't think them to be that relevant to discussing the actual evolution of the "internal" school.

So what do we have as "internal?"

1) A battlefield art - xingyi
2) A duellist art - bagua
3) A meditative / fitness / cultivation art - Taiji

Where do our references to "internal" arts mostly derive?

Why from the writings of a general on a well-rounded syllabus!

What social status did generals occupy in dynastic China?

Why I do believe they were gentlemen!

Who were expected to know how to duel? Gentlemen!

Who would be expected to practice personal cultivation? Gentlemen again!

Wow, surprising how that all fits together.

But these three disparate arts all sort of got blended a little, mostly in the last 150 years. A lot of the Taiji metaphysics rubbing off onto Xingyi and Bagua practice.

Fast-forward a hundred years more ant that "internal" metaphysics has started to rub off onto completely disparate arts like Wing Chun. It's not internal, there isn't anything internal about it. As with Xingyi, and to a lesser extent, Bagua, the apparent anomalies in how power is generated are actually things with rational explanations - the principle of the shortest path for instance.

However part of why Taoism has survived for 2500 years is because it is changeable. Successful religions and philosophies are. So, being changeable, it is easily adapted.

Somebody adapts Taoist metaphysics, drawn out of Taiji, to the power generation of a martial art and slaps the label "internal" on it.

What frustrates me is that by creating "internal" you create an opposite "external" which is defined as everything that is-not-internal.

My reading of the dedaojing is such that this is not the true Tao.

Only in the dissolution of opposites into unity will you find the Tao-That-Cannot-Be-Named.

Therefore the orthodox Taoist interpretation would be that there is no internal.

Of course, I am a crafter of beautiful lies that speak to truth. It is my stock in trade both to dissolve opposites and also to mislead in a way. So perhaps I am doing that right now. ;)

YiQuanOne

07-15-2011, 12:03 PM

Prove me wrong fu boy.

As your friend in fantasy would say.... show me the money

It's follow the money. Bozo

Learn how to read, do you need a comprehension lesson. Did you get hit in the head to many times practicing your external MA's?.

Don't try to quote someone if you don't know how to read!

WC1277

07-15-2011, 03:32 PM

This has got to be the most boring and incredibly non-productive thread on this entire forum. Can you guys please just stop now. No one is coming up with anything new or interesting that hasn't been said before. On a side note, no one really cares either, it's always the same 3 or 4 posters running in circles!

Hendrik

07-15-2011, 04:54 PM

Fast-forward a hundred years more ant that "internal" metaphysics has started to rub off onto completely disparate arts like Wing Chun.

It's not internal, there isn't anything internal about it.

Do you home work before posting will be great for you.

Even Chin Yoong needed to do lots and lots of details home work before he wrote his fiction.

I hope you could become a Chin Yoong of the West.

Eric_H

07-15-2011, 05:25 PM

Bagua is about half-way between these two extremes, it includes Taoist metaphysics but retains a fair bit of the original wrestling and locking content that it was intended for.

Circle walking isn't the wisest course of action on a battlefield (in fact it'll get you dead fast) but in a duel being to change angles rapidly could have been of use, suggesting that Bagua may have evolved out of gentlemanly duelling arts as well as a grapple / lock basis.

Circle walking isn't for combat. If you really think Bagua guys just run around their opponent until they get dizzy you might have missed a few things here and there.

Can't find the link cause I'm at work, but check out the saber form Grandmaster Fu Zhen Song taught when a commander in the army (you can find it on youtube.)

Also, from what I've seen of it, much of the four sided spear lends itself well to group tactics.

YouKnowWho

07-15-2011, 05:58 PM

Circle walking isn't for combat.
If you can circle walk faster than the speed of light, you can make your opponent to change into a new born baby. Instead of fighting your opponent, you just carry him to the near by daycare center.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCsHTNP2MaU

EternalSpring

07-15-2011, 06:58 PM

Taijiquan, on the other hand, is pretty much indivisible from the Taoist metaphysical aspects built up around it. In fact, so much attention has been given to the metaphysics that it is entirely divorced from any sort of martial root, having become a good, low impact, method of keeping fit while practising meditation-in-movement.

I'm not so sure about that. Sure, that may be how "McDojo Tai Chi" or Tai Chi trained only for health purposes may appear, but this is not at all true for those who correctly train it as a martial art.

Taijiquan, on the other hand, is pretty much indivisible from the Taoist metaphysical aspects built up around it. In fact, so much attention has been given to the metaphysics that it is entirely divorced from any sort of martial root, having become a good, low impact, method of keeping fit while practising meditation-in-movement.

Fast-forward a hundred years more ant that "internal" metaphysics has started to rub off onto completely disparate arts like Wing Chun. It's not internal, there isn't anything internal about it. As with Xingyi, and to a lesser extent, Bagua, the apparent anomalies in how power is generated are actually things with rational explanations - the principle of the shortest path for instance.
)

But, at least as far as Ip Man lineages go, the Siu Nim Tao is internal and not very different from what you said about the "meditation in movement" seen in Tai Chi. It is the base of all the movements that are learned in Ving Tsun. The idea that Ving Tsun has internal aspects is not something new from the modern day Ving Tsun practitioners, this idea has been passed down in the Kuen Kit for generations. In fact, I'm sure even various kuen kit from different lineages would agree with this.

Somebody adapts Taoist metaphysics, drawn out of Taiji, to the power generation of a martial art and slaps the label "internal" on it.

What frustrates me is that by creating "internal" you create an opposite "external" which is defined as everything that is-not-internal.

My reading of the dedaojing is such that this is not the true Tao.

Only in the dissolution of opposites into unity will you find the Tao-That-Cannot-Be-Named.

Therefore the orthodox Taoist interpretation would be that there is no internal.

I agree with what you say here but then I think it would also lead us to conclude that Ving Tsun does have internal aspects. Why? Because like Yin Yang, the two powers are always at work together and not separate. They may not be used in the same proportions, but they're both present at least in some small form. Knowing the concepts of Yin Yang is also advised by the Kuen Kit as well. So Ving Tsun is not purely internal, nor is it purely external.

This can be said for Tai Chi as well. There is always a point where one can apply the energy of "push." The only difference is that the push will not oppose another push. The application of Tai Chi is not very different from Chi Sao either. Relaxed soft energy applies the minimum force necessary at the right time. It's never about simply smashing forearms and overpowering others.

I think the problem is that many people look at "internal" martial arts as if they require no work and build up energy that requires no physical power at all. That's just not true (at least from my experience). There's a lot more similarities between these movements than some may think:

Tai Chi
http://taichichuanthailand.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/YCF-Brush-Knee.jpg

Shaolin (blurry but i chose it because it was facing the same direction as other two pics)
http://www.shaolin.org/video-clips-4/black-tiger03a.jpg

Western Boxing
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Fdr1IuekoSw/RyhVfIk3-zI/AAAAAAAAAdw/r9vwxE-2628/s400/Image042.jpg

just my 2c

Hendrik

07-15-2011, 07:08 PM

But, at least as far as Ip Man lineages go, the Siu Nim Tao is internal and not very different from what you said about the "meditation in movement" seen in Tai Chi. It is the base of all the movements that are learned in Ving Tsun. The idea that Ving Tsun has internal aspects is not something new from the modern day Ving Tsun practitioners, this idea has been passed down in the Kuen Kit for generations. In fact, I'm sure even various kuen kit from different lineages would agree with this.

What the above Wing Chun non internal speculation comes from not knowing Siu Lin Tao is a fusion between White Crane of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang.

Emei 12 Zhuang has been in the Chinese history for past 700 years, it is deeply internal, and one still could find the written documentary in Beijing museum today.

This is another type of internal compare with the northern Xing Yi, Taiji ... type of internal. However it is Neigong and it is an authentic Chinese ancient art.

When discuss internal one needs to do lots of homework. If one doesnt know how many type of internal art in the Chinese history and how each of them different and what does it means to be internal, then there is no way one could discuss that. The term "internal" for each different style has their precise definition which is not up for anyone's interpretation or refine.

The biggest problem these days is everyone loves to define what is internal based on their own mind set, which doesnt only to confuse everything.

anerlich

07-15-2011, 09:08 PM

maybe you should learn more about my own Sigung and Sifu?

Why, don't you rabbit on about them enough or something?

This has got to be the most boring and incredibly non-productive thread on this entire forum.

you haven't been here that long. There have been other threads that leave this one for dead in those stakes.

Hardwork108

07-16-2011, 12:06 AM

Prove me wrong fu boy.

As your friend in fantasy would say.... show me the money

If you want to see the money, then go and get yours back from all those Mcdojo "kung fu-ists" who have taken you for a ride for all those years. LOL!

Hardwork108

07-16-2011, 12:11 AM

It's funny to see people want their style to be "internal" as if "internal" is superior than "external".
To be honest and seriously speaking, I am not even arguing about the superiority of the Internals, I am just arguing that they EXIST, to start with. :)

Hardwork108

07-16-2011, 12:13 AM

Hardwork108

07-16-2011, 12:17 AM

if you can circle walk faster than the speed of light, you can make your opponent to change into a new born baby. Instead of fighting your opponent, you just carry him to the near by daycare center.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccshtnp2mau

lol! :)

.........

GlennR

07-16-2011, 12:19 AM

Here's mine. I don't think Wing Chun is an internal system, based off a collection of facts and experiences.

1) Other internal stylists definetly think that Wing Chun is externally based, using jing power rather than internal buildup of chi to execute the moves. This could probably be discounted, though, because what does a Bagua man know about Wing Chun? But still worthy of consideration.

2) Historically, not counting the Yim Wing Chun LEGEND (it may be true, but we know that Wing Chun was in existence over 200 years before Yim Wing Chun was alive. However, she probably did make the system famous and rename it after herself. Wing Chun is a system probably made to teach groups of peasants how to fight in a short amount of time--this explains why 80% of the training involves two people--you're teaching two people something at the same time, which is faster and leads to actual combat skills in shorter amounts of time.
Also, Wing Chun was made presumably with the idea of cutting out uneconomical moves from traditional southern styles--internal styles are mostly comprised of moves that seem uneconomical when compared to 'combat reality' moves. I think the people who created Wing Chun were probably seen much as we see combat realists/MMA people in our times.
3) Most of ideas regarding Wing Chun as an internal style seem to branch from the first 6 moves of Sil Lim Tao, which are done extremely slow. When asked why it is done so slow, many people assume it is done slow for the same reasons Tai Chi sets are done slow (and they are at about the same pace,) which is to collect and store and cultivate Chi. Well, this isn't necessarily the case--and even seems unlikely, since there are no other slow moves in the entire system.
A more plausible explanation is that in Sil Lim Tao, you are learning the very basics of Wing Chun, and thus the base that all the rest of your knowledge stems from. If you learn to perform all of your moves perfectly from the start, you will have a strong foundation on which to base your skills. Now, think again. Why are the punches done 3 times, slow motion, and then 3 more at the end? Which move are you most likely to be doing the most in your Wing Chun career? The straight punch is the heart of Wing Chun, coming from the centerline to your opponent's centerline--the poetic basis of Wing Chun--Heart to Heart.
Look at the other slow moves--(their chinese names escape me, so I will use English descriptions to explain them) the tan sau, the hand ridge block (god, why can't I remember it's Chinese name? =P I know I know it,) and the hooking block. TThe hand ridge block and the Tan block and the hooking hand block are three of the four root blocks, from which every other Wing Chun block is based off of. The only block not present in these three moves that comprises one of the root blocks is the Bong Sau, which sort of makes sense, since the Bong Sau has no other blocks which resemble it--it sort of stands alone. The slow returning ridge hand block builds up arm strength, and once again it is teaching you the EXACT positioning for the blocks so that your base for learning Wing Chun is strong.

Those are my points. What points are there that support Wing Chun as an internal system?

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

Funny, after being shouted down for being a troll (ie anti-internal) and how i was wrecking an internal thread, i go back to the original poster who had the above to say.

So my dear internalists......as Scott asked a decade ago.... what are your points of support that says WC is internal?

Oh, and saying it is doesnt make it so

Hardwork108

07-16-2011, 12:22 AM

Circle walking isn't the wisest course of action on a battlefield (in fact it'll get you dead fast) but in a duel being to change angles rapidly could have been of use, suggesting that Bagua may have evolved out of gentlemanly duelling arts as well as a grapple / lock basis.

Oh boy.....:rolleyes:

You are another one who should chase the money, that is the money you have given to MCsifus, who took you for a ride all those years......

Boy, some of you guys would make the beginners in my kwoon fall down from laughing! :rolleyes:

GlennR

07-16-2011, 12:25 AM

What YiQuanOne is actually saying is that you are trolling this thread cluelessly, without a point of reference. ;)

What he is saying is that he has no factual rebuttal to what i say, and neither do you.

YouKnowWho

07-16-2011, 12:31 AM

To be honest and seriously speaking, I am not even arguing about the superiority of the Internals, I am just arguing that they EXIST, to start with. :)

A: Which body is better? The Taiji body, the XingYi body, or the Bagua body?
B: If you can beat the sh!t out of your opponent, you have good body, otherwise, you don't.

GlennR

07-16-2011, 12:31 AM

Hear is a measured study. You be the scholar and find a genuine Internalist sifu and ask him to thump you on your skull. It should not be too difficult to convince him, knowing your "charmingness".......

Like you pehaps???? BWAHAH

If you were really interested then you would seek a qualified master and ask him personally. The problem is that you guys are not really interested as you have made up your minds. So what you are doing here is trolling with your predictable clueless admiration of MT, BJJ and MMA.

No problem with that either, except for the fact that you should go and admire all that none- TCMA stuff in a none TCMA thread. Sounds logical, doesn't it? I mean it is not rocket science or Internal training, things that are way above your heads....it is common logic - go to MMA forums and pat each other's backs for discovering the "true" martial arts.....

Read the original question moron, im responding to the original question.
Its on page 1 of this thread, the 1st one. Do you need directions?

Why should I show you measurable results? I found my own measurable results, if you were INTERESTED then you would go and find it, or at least try to and not in an internet forum but a genuine kung fu kwoon (if they let you in, that is LOL).

Youve got nothing have you?

You could not beat a genuine Internalist if your life depended on it. That means you would get killed!

BWAHAHA! Will Jackie Chan be there as well!

Listen, instead of talking BS from behind the safety of your key board, get up and go to your local China Town and spread the word that you are looking for some Internalist sifus and masters to beat up.

BWAHAHA! (again) And will i also be a marked man by the Triads?

No need to say, that you should write will before hand and make any organ donations and so on clear in writing. Actually, you could leave your brain to Science Fiction! LOL!

BWAHAHA! (you got the hat trick!) Stop it, im laughing so hard it hurts!

GlennR

07-16-2011, 12:33 AM

GlennR

07-16-2011, 12:35 AM

Bingo! Give this man a prize!

I personally, after practising a lot of martial arts, and reading a lot of books on the history of martial arts, the philosophical and religious traditions out of which they developed and the historical concept within which they developed began to doubt that "internal" was anything more than a modern appellation to three disparate arts.

Xingyiquan is a very practical spear art adapted to bare hands. The thrust-and-twist power generation that constantly comes up in Xingyi isn't a reference back to a byzantine Taoist yin/yang metaphysical dichotomy, it is how any sensible person stabs with a spear.

Plain And Simple.

Taijiquan, on the other hand, is pretty much indivisible from the Taoist metaphysical aspects built up around it. In fact, so much attention has been given to the metaphysics that it is entirely divorced from any sort of martial root, having become a good, low impact, method of keeping fit while practising meditation-in-movement.

Bagua is about half-way between these two extremes, it includes Taoist metaphysics but retains a fair bit of the original wrestling and locking content that it was intended for.

Circle walking isn't the wisest course of action on a battlefield (in fact it'll get you dead fast) but in a duel being to change angles rapidly could have been of use, suggesting that Bagua may have evolved out of gentlemanly duelling arts as well as a grapple / lock basis.

Considering the significance of standing locks and arm control to sword and knife practices this actually makes a certain amount of sense and, when perceived through this filter, provides a rational basis for how we might have ended up with something anomalous such as Bagua.

Please don't think I'm ignorant of the creation myths for each of these arts. I know them in detail. I just don't think them to be that relevant to discussing the actual evolution of the "internal" school.

So what do we have as "internal?"

1) A battlefield art - xingyi
2) A duellist art - bagua
3) A meditative / fitness / cultivation art - Taiji

Where do our references to "internal" arts mostly derive?

Why from the writings of a general on a well-rounded syllabus!

What social status did generals occupy in dynastic China?

Why I do believe they were gentlemen!

Who were expected to know how to duel? Gentlemen!

Who would be expected to practice personal cultivation? Gentlemen again!

Wow, surprising how that all fits together.

But these three disparate arts all sort of got blended a little, mostly in the last 150 years. A lot of the Taiji metaphysics rubbing off onto Xingyi and Bagua practice.

Fast-forward a hundred years more ant that "internal" metaphysics has started to rub off onto completely disparate arts like Wing Chun. It's not internal, there isn't anything internal about it. As with Xingyi, and to a lesser extent, Bagua, the apparent anomalies in how power is generated are actually things with rational explanations - the principle of the shortest path for instance.

However part of why Taoism has survived for 2500 years is because it is changeable. Successful religions and philosophies are. So, being changeable, it is easily adapted.

Somebody adapts Taoist metaphysics, drawn out of Taiji, to the power generation of a martial art and slaps the label "internal" on it.

What frustrates me is that by creating "internal" you create an opposite "external" which is defined as everything that is-not-internal.

My reading of the dedaojing is such that this is not the true Tao.

Only in the dissolution of opposites into unity will you find the Tao-That-Cannot-Be-Named.

Therefore the orthodox Taoist interpretation would be that there is no internal.

Of course, I am a crafter of beautiful lies that speak to truth. It is my stock in trade both to dissolve opposites and also to mislead in a way. So perhaps I am doing that right now. ;)

Thanks Simon.
Nicely written response, though you'll now be labelled an externalist now!

GlennR

07-16-2011, 12:37 AM

Boy, some of you guys would make the beginners in my kwoon fall down from laughing! :rolleyes]

Dont underrestimate yourself.... youre making me fall over laughing and im not even in the same country as you!

GlennR

07-16-2011, 12:42 AM

But, at least as far as Ip Man lineages go, the Siu Nim Tao is internal and not very different from what you said about the "meditation in movement" seen in Tai Chi. It is the base of all the movements that are learned in Ving Tsun. The idea that Ving Tsun has internal aspects is not something new from the modern day Ving Tsun practitioners, this idea has been passed down in the Kuen Kit for generations. In fact, I'm sure even various kuen kit from different lineages would agree with this.

Well see, id say all of the above is your opinion. Thats fair enough, but it is your opinion

I think the problem is that many people look at "internal" martial arts as if they require no work and build up energy that requires no physical power at all. That's just not true (at least from my experience). There's a lot more similarities between these movements than some may think:

Tai Chi
http://taichichuanthailand.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/YCF-Brush-Knee.jpg

Shaolin (blurry but i chose it because it was facing the same direction as other two pics)
http://www.shaolin.org/video-clips-4/black-tiger03a.jpg

Western Boxing
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Fdr1IuekoSw/RyhVfIk3-zI/AAAAAAAAAdw/r9vwxE-2628/s400/Image042.jpg

just my 2c[/QUOTE]

So from your photos and comment are you saying, that ultimately, it all looks the same and gets there doing the same thing?

Hardwork108

07-16-2011, 12:45 AM

Y'know, for a martial artists you can be a real numpty! :o

Please, for everyones benefit, tell us where I have claimed to be an 'expert' in 5 elements??

You mean because I teach using the 5 elements? Or was taught how they relate directly to my Wing Chun learning?? You know this is all regarded as 'common knowledge' don't you? You don't need to have a degree in TCM to understand this, and those who proclaim to be experts, like yourself, sometimes miss the point completely.

Sorry for your confusion about such things. My experience is embedded in my Wing Chun learning whereas yours has come from other sources. Great that may have been for you, but I'm quite happy in my inexperienced, amateur understanding thank you.

Spencer, now you know why I have ridiculed these people and people like them, for years.

How can anyone discuss anything with them when their point of reference is based on everything else BUT on genuine TCMA studies?

How can one put his point across when these people think that they have discovered the pinnacle of martial arts studies -and that pinnacle is unrelated to the TCMAs?

I mean, there is a man here who claims decades of TCMA experience who thinks baguazhang's circle walking is for the battlefield....LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL!

I mean, you couldn't invent this stuff....LOL!

Of course, the biggest mystery of it all, that is a mystery bigger than the Internals themselves, is why people with so much contempt, not to mention utter ignorance and cluelessness, as regards genuine TCMA methodologies, insist on posting in a TMCA Forum????:confused:

Could the reason have something to do with excess brain damage from too much external training?

Could it be that these people know deep inside that they don't have what it takes to study the Internals, so they vent their frustrations for those of us who take the time and make the effort to study methodologies that require more mental and emotional input?

I don't know the real answer, but I am glad that there are a few of us here who do our best to study the TCMAs the way they were designed to be practiced, and not the way some clueless wannabe instructor wants to "teach" for his own convenience.

All the best. :)

Hardwork108

07-16-2011, 12:53 AM

What he is saying is that he has no factual rebuttal to what i say, and neither do you.

The factual rebuttal is our own TCMA training and the knowledge and understanding that comes from it. By the way, you get that from actually training it yourself, not from people "explaining" them to you on internet forums.......:rolleyes:

Hardwork108

07-16-2011, 12:58 AM

A: Which body is better? The Taiji body, the XingYi body, or the Bagua body?
B: If you can beat the sh!t out of your opponent, you have good body, otherwise, you don't.

I agree with you. The objective of arts that emphasis the External approach and those that emphasis the Internal one is the same - combat effectiveness. Some people can become combat effective through the External emphasised training and others can do so through Internal emphasised training.

They both exist and within each other. The Internal arts have external elements and the external arts will have internal elements. However, they represent different core methodologies and I guess this difference and the lack of comprehension of some as regards the Internal side of the equasion, is causing us to have this endless discussion, where we are going in cirlces all the time. :)

Hardwork108

07-16-2011, 01:25 AM

This has got to be the most boring and incredibly non-productive thread on this entire forum.

It could not be otherwise as you have as always some kung fu tagged glorified kickboxers invading a TCMA forum and telling everyone that genuine TCMA methodologies are "fantasy", "ineffective", etc.

This is in contrast to many actual TCMA practitioners or those who are interested in practicing them, who come to forums such as this one to learn about genuine TCMA methodologies from people who actually practice them with genuine masters and sifus, not at some "kung fu" Mcdojo, BJJ or kickboxing gym.

So, you end up with an unproductive conflict, where in a TCMA forum, the TCMA-ists put the case for genuine TCMA methodologies, while the kickboxers - who are NOT here to learn anything, that is they are here to apparently "teach":rolleyes: - insist on cluelessly putting down genuine kung fu practice in favor of whatever it is that they do....

jesper

07-16-2011, 01:30 AM

I agree with you. The objective of arts that emphasis the External approach and those that emphasis the Internal one is the same - combat effectiveness. Some people can become combat effective through the External emphasised training and others can do so through Internal emphasised training.

They both exist and within each other. The Internal arts have external elements and the external arts will have internal elements. However, they represent different core methodologies and I guess this difference and the lack of comprehension of some as regards the Internal side of the equasion, is causing us to have this endless discussion, where we are going in cirlces all the time. :)

maybe it comes from the fact that one person prefers viable scientific proof that what you do actually gives better result then other training methods, while others believe in magic

Hardwork108

07-16-2011, 01:39 AM

maybe it comes from the fact that one person prefers viable scientific proof that what you do actually gives better result then other training methods, while others believe in magic

Please show me where in this thread anyone has mentioned "magic", that is anyone who has actually practiced the Internals and not the glorified kickboxers who regularly make their (foot in the mouth) posts in threads such as this one!

jesper

07-16-2011, 03:30 AM

Please show me where in this thread anyone has mentioned "magic", that is anyone who has actually practiced the Internals and not the glorified kickboxers who regularly make their (foot in the mouth) posts in threads such as this one!

please show me any scientific evidence to suggest internal training produce better results

Hardwork108

07-16-2011, 03:32 AM

please show me any scientific evidence to suggest internal training produce better results

The only way you are going to find out is by training it or by touching hands with someone who has trained it, not by reading "evidence" on internet forums!

Hardwork108

07-16-2011, 04:58 AM

Thanks Simon.
Nicely written response, though you'll now be labelled an externalist now!

Yes, Simon is an exteranlist who has been walking in (bagua) circles for years, searching for real "battlefield" kung fu........LOL,LOL,LOL!

jesper

07-16-2011, 05:00 AM

The only way you are going to find out is by training it or by touching hands with someone who has trained it, not by reading "evidence" on internet forums!

And I would waste time training something that supposevely takes years to perfect because you say so, when I can train using proven methods that will get good results.

I believe the body is capable of making loads of fantastic stuff, because I have seen first hand how mind over matter works.
I also believe the world is full of charlatans and fools willing to follow.

So far I havent witnessed any internal MA that has shown anything that cant be learnt with good hard work.

but ofcourse I have seen many internalist who are super fighters, they just dont want to show it because its to deadly :rolleyes:

Hardwork108

07-16-2011, 05:06 AM

Like you pehaps???? BWAHAH
An expert Internalist may spare your life, but since I am still not there yet, I may lose control and feed you your own testicles. :p

Read the original question moron, im responding to the original question.
Its on page 1 of this thread, the 1st one. Do you need directions?
OK, yes Wing Chun IS internal!

Next question please.

Youve got nothing have you?
I have two genuine kung fu sifus. That is two more than you will ever have.;)

BWAHAHA! Will Jackie Chan be there as well!
You better hope not, because he would beat the cr@p out of you as well.

BWAHAHA! (again) And will i also be a marked man by the Triads?
Actually, now that you mention the Triads, did you know that many of them practice kung fu, and that there are some sifus amongst them? Oh yes, what do they know about realz fighting anyway.....

BWAHAHA! (you got the hat trick!) Stop it, im laughing so hard it hurts!
You may laugh at me, but you will never laugh as hard as the fake sifus who took your money for all those years, are laughing at you. LOL,LOL,LOL!

Hardwork108

07-16-2011, 05:15 AM

And I would waste time training something that supposevely takes years to perfect because you say so, when I can train using proven methods that will get good results.
That is why some people learn certain things, while others don't, because it will take them a "long" time. Each to his own.

However, that does not stop you from finding an Internalist master or sifu and talking to him and perhaps touching hands with him. If you do, then you will have more evidence than pages of internet forum literature!

Of course, if you are not willing to do either, then you should not make comments about the subject matter, as you will be missing important points of reference.

I believe the body is capable of making loads of fantastic stuff, because I have seen first hand how mind over matter works.

The "mind over matter" concept covers a huge area - including both the Internals and the Externals.

I also believe the world is full of charlatans and fools willing to follow.
Let's leave Graham H, Simon M and Glenn R and their "kung fu-ist sifus" out of this, shall we? LOL!

So far I havent witnessed any internal MA that has shown anything that cant be learnt with good hard work.
That may be because you have not seen any real Internal MA, just like the aformetioned Glorified Kickboxers. ;)

but ofcourse I have seen many internalist who are super fighters, they just dont want to show it because its to deadly :rolleyes:

I am sure if you venture into you local China Town, search for a genuine kung fu school, armed with a big mouth, then there will be more than a few sifus who might show you. ;)

YiQuanOne

07-16-2011, 07:39 AM

And I would waste time training something that supposevely takes years to perfect because you say so, when I can train using proven methods that will get good results.

I believe the body is capable of making loads of fantastic stuff, because I have seen first hand how mind over matter works.
I also believe the world is full of charlatans and fools willing to follow.

So far I havent witnessed any internal MA that has shown anything that cant be learnt with good hard work.

but ofcourse I have seen many internalist who are super fighters, they just dont want to show it because its to deadly :rolleyes:

Most , maybe all people that found internal started out doing external, nothing wrong with that. External will give you results very fast. But what happens after years of doing external you reach a peak, then you start going down the other side of the peak. Externals are based more on conditioning, so as you get older you get slower and weaker and soon people with a less experence are giving you a hard time or showing you up.

Then if you are lucky you meet some little guy and by using little effort can throw you around like a piece of hay, and just laugh. Then you know there is something missing.

So you start training internal if you have a teacher, and soon you are going up hill again, and this time conditioning does not make any difference, and this time you will never reach a peak, the hill has no limit to how high you can go. Age , speed, strength are not the key factors any more.

But I don't know anybody that just went to internal that got any good, I think you need the external as a reference also. I think you need to learn all you can of as much as you can of MA so you have a reference to compare things.

Books are not real references, they are somebody elses experence, but they are good way to confirm your experences.

I would not even consider a student unless he has around 10 years experence in MA, otherwise they have no reference and don't even appreciate what they are learning, they need to be able to compare the old way to the new way.

EternalSpring

07-16-2011, 09:01 AM

Well see, id say all of the above is your opinion. Thats fair enough, but it is your opinion

the part that you quoted is my own words, but what it's referring to isn't just my opinion. It's referring to the Kuen Kit (which I didn't write) and has been passed down for generations. I guess there's always the fact that the older masters could be lying, but there are Kuen Kits from different lineages across the world share many of the Ving Tsun Maxims/Proverbs. Plus, if we assumed that older masters were just lying to us about the internal aspects, then why not assume the same about everything every master has said? That would just leave is with no understanding of internal or external at all.

If these maxims dont show any "internal" aspect of Ving tsun, then I'm not sure what would:

- Siu Lim Tau mainly trains internal power.
- Fill the Tan Tien with chi and distribute the strength to all parts of the body.
- To release chi from the Tan Tien, will enable proper release of power.
- Internally develop the chi; externally train the tendons, bones and muscles.
- Eyes are trained to be alert; the chi flows in a perpetual motion.
- Store mental energy with the mind. Move chi with mental energy. Exert strength with chi. Generate power with strength.
- No harm will come if chi is nurtured naturally. Power can be stored but with enough to spare.
- chi comes out of the Tan Tien, and travels along the waist, the thighs, and the back.

So from your photos and comment are you saying, that ultimately, it all looks the same and gets there doing the same thing?

I was referring to what someone said earlier concerning Taoist philosophy. When the thread title asks if Ving Tsun is internal, I would say that it has many internal aspects but it's not "purely" internal. I dont think any art is purely internal because that would violate the philosophy of many internal arts. Internal and external, soft and hard: they should both exist in a "internal" style. If that were not true then it would be like the Yin Yang being cut into just pure Yin or pure Yang, and Taoist philosophy would say that such a way of fighting/training is not recommended since both powers must exist together.

For example, martial arts in general teach us to be relaxed, but this doesn't mean that we should be relaxed to the point where we can get blown over by a gust of wind or be so soft that people can just control our bodies.

The point of the photos was to show similarities between structure of styles that would be considered soft and styles that would be considered hard. The shaolin punch, the tai chi brush knee motion, and the boxing rear cross all have the weight on the front left, the shifting of the hip, and the pushing off with the rear foot (any maybe other similarities as well). So from this, we can conclude that styles like Tai Chi which are considered "internal" dont just draw all their energy from some invisible power but rather they do have the structure and power generation methods of hard styles as well in the same way that styles like western boxing and shaolin also use relaxed energy to strike faster and take less damage and save energy (and whatever other reasons there are). It was mainly to show that if all styles have some aspects of both (especially "stereotypical" internal and external styles, like Tai Chi and Shaolin), then its up to us to observe how much of each aspect (internal or external) is present in the style (and i agree this varies w/ opinion and experience)

But I will also admit that after typing this out I do realize there is a problem with just using the terms "internal/external" and "soft/hard" so casually like I've been doing. I guess the real thing we'd have to do as a group is to first establish what are the unique qualities of each term

Vajramusti

07-16-2011, 10:32 AM

Yet another kfo thread- neither internal or external or mixed- just eternal.
If it disappears someone is bound to dig it up again.

joy c

anerlich

07-16-2011, 08:37 PM

But what happens after years of doing external you reach a peak, then you start going down the other side of the peak. Externals are based more on conditioning, so as you get older you get slower and weaker and soon people with a less experence are giving you a hard time or showing you up.

Nice overgeneralisation.

At 56, I guess must still be climbing the peak and expect to do so for a while yet.

Actually, you can learn to use your leverage and sensitivity better with experience. A lot of BJJ guys start off with a fast, athletic game, and as they get older they move to a slower, tighter game that requires less strength and speed and can still vanquish the twentysomething athletes.

Then if you are lucky you meet some little guy and by using little effort can throw you around like a piece of hay, and just laugh. Then you know there is something missing.

Ive met several guys like this. My BJJ instructor for one, JJ Machado another. Gogen Yamaguchi was rumoured to have such attributes in his extreme old age according to one eyewitness I know personally. "External" martial artists one and all., although Tim Cartmell (an internal martial artist, look him up) says he thinks BJJ is internal.

Hardwork108

07-16-2011, 09:08 PM

Nice overgeneralisation.

At 56, I guess must still be climbing the peak and expect to do so for a while yet.

Actually, you can learn to use your leverage and sensitivity better with experience. A lot of BJJ guys start off with a fast, athletic game, and as they get older they move to a slower, tighter game that requires less strength and speed and can still vanquish the twentysomething athletes.

All MAs that use or incorporate grappling will have "sensitivity" and the use of leverage. All external MAs will have internal elements and depending on the practioner the Internal elements will show up later on during older age when better technique has to compensate for lack of physical strength. So nothing new there.

The Internals go beyond that. When you finally decide to study them one day, with REAL master I might add, then you will see what I and others here mean.

Of course, to have a better chance of being accepted into a genuine TCMA kwoon, I would suggest that you change your know it all attitude as you will never be able to disguise and hide your cluelessness from those people. ;)

Ive met several guys like this. My BJJ instructor for one, JJ Machado another. Gogen Yamaguchi was rumoured to have such attributes in his extreme old age according to one eyewitness I know personally. "External" martial artists one and all.,

If you are talking about the Goju Ryu master Gogen Yamaguchi then for your information the Goju style itself has INTERNAL elements and is highly influenced by Fujian White Crane, which is an INTERNAL system of Kung fu. The name "Go" "ju", itself mean, HARD/SOFT! The "soft" is a reference to the Internals.

Boy this is like discussing TCMAs with Kindergarden kiddies....LOL!

We have SimonM with "decades" of experience, including the "Internals", thinking that the Baguazhang circle walking is about battlefield applications...LOL,LOL,LOL!

Then we have Anerlich and his "decades" of McTCMA, who has never been aware of the "soft" in the "hard/soft" style of Goju Ryu karate, which is largely (not enough, unfortunately) influenced by an INTERNAL kung fu style.

And the circus act of "pretend" continues by the "kung fu" tagged kickboxers of this forum....LOL!

So thanks for the laughs....LOL!

although Tim Cartmell (an internal martial artist, look him up) says he thinks BJJ is internal.

The world, with this forum included, is full of people who "say" things......:rolleyes:

Personally, I would say that you could train BJJ in a more internal manner and then loosely refer to it as an internal art, however, we will still NOT be talking about the INTERNAL TCMAs!!!

YiQuanOne

07-16-2011, 09:51 PM

trubblman

07-17-2011, 07:28 AM

Mattador

07-17-2011, 07:59 AM

Siu Lin Tao (Little Transmutation) Golden Bell Heavy Hei-Gung.
Chum Kue (Depressing Bridge)Light skills Hei-Gung.
Biu Gee (Darting, Thrusting, Penetrating Fingers)Dim Mak extending Chi.
All forms utilize internal energy tork and Fa Ging. www.buddhapalm.com (http://www.buddhapalm.com)

Sam,
Get your head out the clouds. I really hope you are joking. Gullible is in the dictionary.

Hendrik

07-17-2011, 09:18 AM

Since ancient time,

External just means application and raw physical center martial art system.

Internal just means holistic center martial art system.

Why is that an issue at all?

is Wing Chun an Internal art? yes, because it is a holistic center system.

Look at the three sets, the first is for body mind and structure cultivation, the second and third for dynamic structure and applications cultivation.

There is no issue at all, the sets have define and tell what it is.

with human is model as a biomechanics, then,
Qi involve because Qi and breathing is the Chemistry within the Biomechanics ; where physical body is the mechanics within the biomechanics; and intention is the electrical system within the biomechanics.

To make things holistics all of above are address since these components made up the biomechanics or human.

The emei and white crane comes into the picture is only to solve "how" and "what type of platform" the Wing Chun kuen is designed. so that one could effectively activate the Wing Chun kuen sets or process. I personally dont even care if it from chicken fist or monkey fist or Taiji or Wu dang, it has to activate the sets that is the bottom line.

The issues for Wing Chuner are not to argue with something has been defined, but to both find out the depth and evolve the biomechanics and the applications.

simple stuffs why makes it complicated.

look at my other thread, Prio to Wing Chun, and see for yourself what is going on.

anyone wants to know how is Wing Chun sets internal come visit me and see for yourself.

YiQuanOne

07-17-2011, 10:06 AM

I don't know why I 'm feeding into this by writing about a thread that is more than 10 years old. But it's Sunday, it's not american football season yet so I am killing about 5 minutes.

From Peter A. Gilligan's book What is 'Tai Chi'? Here is what Peter (who is English) says about the internal/external. [T]he techniques used by different schools and styles [of martial arts] may differ. That the goal [of the martial arts schools and styles] is the same is reflected by the internal/external conclusion of both resulting in hard and soft together.

What Peter is saying is that once you reach a high enough level, it does not matter. If you start out with an external style and in the higher levels you will develop internal methods and the end result will be external and internal. If you start out with internal style then the converse will happen.

It is said that the Tai Chi fighters of yore were able to manifest great power. I don't know if it is true or Chinese legendary hyperbole.

However, in my opinion VT is Internal and External when taught correctly. The VT practitioner develops them simultaneous, starting from being weak externally and internally thence, with practice and patience, hopefully, to being strong externally and internally. My [albeit limited] understanding is that VT is rare in developing power thus and one of a few styles that but not the only that does so. I think styles from Emei or Omei temple were noted for using this type simultaneous internal-external power development.

I am a little skeptical of some people who claim things because of years doing and have written books. It always seems like the people who don't have something or did not get it are writing books. I am not sure if this author is reliable, but his web site and videos do not give me evidence that he has developed internal application.
There is a person teaching near me, that has written books, has many students , been doing it 30 -40 years but has no internal core, they never learned how to develop the core, so they think they have something but don't, none of the students have developed anything. They are just getting some exercise doing empty movements.

To develope the internal core you have do the whole system, not just the waving of arms in the air part, those are techniques you can apply after you have developed the core.

Hendrik

07-17-2011, 10:45 AM

I am a little skeptical of some people who claim things because of years doing and have written books. It always seems like the people who don't have something or did not get it are writing books. I am not sure if this author is reliable, but his web site and videos do not give me evidence that he has developed internal application.
There is a person teaching near me, that has written books, has many students , been doing it 30 -40 years but has no internal core, they never learned how to develop the core, so they think they have something but don't, none of the students have developed anything. They are just getting some exercise doing empty movements.

To develope the internal core you have do the whole system, not just the waving of arms in the air part, those are techniques you can apply after you have developed the core.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jPMXzxvdL8

you post remind me something happen in late 1980's when i was working with a PE proffesor and my friend on Taiji training effect, in PE dept. Iowa state Univ.

one day, I told the PE profesor, such and such masters really dont know what they are doing. the proffessor told me, " you know , we all needs to make a living, so at some time of life we just package up the best we can".

it has been almost 30 years now and I feel like an a$$ because I pointed out these masters issues. for me, right now, life is not mostly about Truth and Facts but compassionate on others who is less fortunate. most people are just package up to make a living.

I have met a sick elderly this week end, he told me he can not afford Taiji. it is too expensive. I then show him some exercises which will certainly help his condition. and I told him we live in the USA these things should be free to all elderly. it will help the elderlyto have a better quality living and safe our country lots of medical spending.

I give things for free these days to those who visited me because I hope somedays Truth are free. So that everyone could afford it. it is not about fighting but a better living.

My late Sifu, Ven Hsuan Hua the Chan patriach, uses to tell me, " if you meet some one who knows kung fu and will teach you without have to pay anything but practice deligently, Go learn with him sincerely. " I thought it is kind of stupid at that time because everything got to be paid and the good thing even cost more money.

Not until I met my late Sigung Ma Li-Tang's teaching. which he makes it very clear, his teaching is not for commercial but helping people. There I learn, yes, real deal can be free and lots of good people in this world is willing to give it to anyone who really needs it.

it is from Ma Li-Tang's teaching and history I get to know what is the core of Internal of Xing Yi......etc. what is the reality and how they practice it at their time. Those are different then the Emei and Wing Chun internal.

less have heard about Ma Li Tang in the West. Ma Li Tang is a heavy weight martial artist and a modern father of Qigong in China, he had studied under, involved and worked with a lots of pionner in China in the era of Wang Xiang Zai, Sun Lu-Dang, and many other top internat art martial artists; lots of scientific studies, fighting, challenging, testing..... going on. he was called "tank" for his figthing ability. however, he was one of the best healing Qigong master/doctor in our era.

Ma also is the close friend and a TCM doctor to the china communist party's officers and generals. since they works together for revolution.

In his old age, Ma teaches Qigong for healing and have heal and cure lots of people in China with Qigong alone.

is Qi real? yes. is internal art real? yes. did they test their internal art? yes. did they test it internationally against other challengers yes.

Ma Li-Tang's bio
http://baike.baidu.com/view/67463.htm
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_60048d410100flay.html

seeing Internal art from this group of people and how they do it give me a good understanding on what is going what is possible and confirm the red boat scripture of SLT kuen kuit on how WCK might be at that time.

Is Wing Chun Kuen internal? the answer is certainly yes. But due to not many in the west or even in the east have seen what is the real internal deal. always there are skeptics and always there are those who blow internal art out of proportion. both are extreme.

GlennR

07-18-2011, 12:42 AM

I know ground fighting is very popular these days, but I don't think of it as a MA, it is more of a one on one fighting game, but it does have good ground fighting techniques for shure.

True... why would you consider one on one fighting as a martial art!

I know some people like to roll around on the ground, looks like to much work to me, but thats me. Everyone has there own preference, like the food they eat.

Ahhh, youve worked out the "no-effort defense system" i take it... oh yeh, that would be internal wouldnt it.

I am sure the same principles of gravity can be applied on the ground, but the balance and stuff will be applied through different parts of the body, instead of the feet. So my comments above are not directed to BJJ, and I think internal can be applied to any art.

Im glad you realise gravity works standing AND on the ground.... clever boy

SimonM

07-18-2011, 08:11 AM

Hardwork108 I would suggest you re-read my post.

I rather explicitly stated that attempting to use Bagua as a battlefield art would get you killed - the precise opposite of saying it was a battlefield art.

I had this following directly on the heels of stating that Xingyi was, explicitly, a battlefield spear art.

The point was to contrast Xingyi (a battlefield art) from Bagua (a duelling art).

Furthermore, to suggest that I expected that Bagua players would "walk in circles around somebody until they got dizzy" was just being wilfully ignorant of my intention. At least I assume wilful ignorance as to assume the other option would be uncharitable.

My point was that the skill imparted by circle walking is to be able to change angle-of-approach rapidly.

I don't personally think it is the BEST way to do so but that remains what it trains.

In a duelling match a change to angle of approach was an important skill.

Thus feeding into my operating hypothesis - that Bagua evolved out of duelling skills rather than battlefield skills.

I do hope this clarifies things.

You'll note I'm trying very hard to be polite. In keeping with this I will not engage in a flame war with you. However if you continue to do nothing but sling insults at me I will do to you what I did to Hendrik, Mattador and YiQuanOne - put you on my ignore list.

Hendrik

07-18-2011, 09:28 AM

However if you continue to do nothing but sling insults at me I will do to you what I did to Hendrik, Mattador and YiQuanOne - put you on my ignore list.

Great to know this! I am release.

anerlich

07-18-2011, 05:27 PM

I know some people like to roll around on the ground, looks like to much work to me, but thats me. Everyone has there own preference, like the food they eat.

My "preference" is to be as well rounded as possible. You prefer to be an underachiever, go for it.

You claimed that the "external" way necessarily involved older guys getting beat by younger, more athletic guys. I gave you several reasons why that was not necessarily so.

GlennR

07-19-2011, 01:02 AM

My "preference" is to be as well rounded as possible. You prefer to be an underachiever, go for it.

You claimed that the "external" way necessarily involved older guys getting beat by younger, more athletic guys. I gave you several reasons why that was not necessarily so.

Well i think we may have heard the last of him..... i think he has been banned from the forum?

anerlich

07-19-2011, 03:29 PM

Well i think we may have heard the last of him..... i think he has been banned from the forum?

Looks that way. He came across as an airhead, but IMO other posters' forum behaviour have been worse than his (not claiming to be a paragon of virtue myself). In any case, I support the mod's decisions.

Hardwork108

07-19-2011, 10:34 PM

Hardwork108 I would suggest you re-read my post.
Believe me, I re-read your post the first time I saw it because I could not believe what I was reading.

I rather explicitly stated that attempting to use Bagua as a battlefield art would get you killed - the precise opposite of saying it was a battlefield art.

You have misunderstood my position. Baguazhang, like all kung fu styles is a battlefield art, in that it is designed to kill or maim the opponent as rapidly as possible. The last time I looked, skills such as that are useful on any battlefield where circumstances may lead to hand to hand combat.

I had this following directly on the heels of stating that Xingyi was, explicitly, a battlefield spear art.
Most, if not all major kung fu styles have weapons training that would transfer to the battlefield.

The point was to contrast Xingyi (a battlefield art) from Bagua (a duelling art).
Where do you get that distinction? Is this based solely on the weapons aspects of these arts? Because as far as unarmed fighting is concerned, then their aim is the same!

Furthermore, to suggest that I expected that Bagua players would "walk in circles around somebody until they got dizzy" was just being wilfully ignorant of my intention

When I referred to the "battlefield" when mentioning your post, I did so meaning the aspect of fighting or COMBAT. The fact is, those who know will tell you that the real purpose of cirlce walking is NOT for any fighting application!

....................Circle walking isn't the wisest course of action on a battlefield (in fact it'll get you dead fast) but in a duel being to change angles rapidly could have been of use, suggesting that Bagua may have evolved out of gentlemanly duelling arts as well as a grapple / lock basis.:

This suggests that you think that circle walking practice is for fighting applications. You refer to the battlefield, but that is not the point. You state that Circle Walking would not be effective in the battle field. I am saying that Circle Walking was not designed for fighting, even if it may work in Samurai movies, where one may get the idea of dueling from.

When I referred to the "battlefield" when mentioning your post, I did so meaning fighting. I was referring to your comments regarding the CIRCLE WALKING training and not Baguazhang, as such, even though they are of course related. The fact is, those who know will tell you that the real purpose of Baguazhang's Cirlce walking is NOT for any fighting application.

I would say the footwork that comes with it may be helpful, but the actual purpose of circle walking is NOT about combat application! You seem not to be aware of that fact, despite your claimed years or decades of training in arts that include the Internals or perhaps as you would put it, the "internals".

Here is what you wrote in your latest posts:

My point was that the skill imparted by circle walking is to be able to change angle-of-approach rapidly.
Again, you are seeing this profound training as a fighting application training - footwork - as the case may be. Wrong! You could get the same results with other types of training. There is another purpose for the sometimes endless Circle Walking exercises. However, the purpose is INTERNAL!

If you know what the purpose is, then feel free to tell us all and then explain why you did not bring it up before.

.

In a duelling match a change to angle of approach was an important skill.
And in the "battle field" this skill is not important? Just asking.....

Thus feeding into my operating hypothesis - that Bagua evolved out of duelling skills rather than battlefield skills.
This is a forum so we are all entitled to our own hypothesis. However, it is my humble opinion that if knew the real purpose of Circle Walking training, then you would not hold that opinion.

I do hope this clarifies things.
I hope that my clarification has cleared things up.

Also, to connect what we are talking about to the actual subject matter of this thread, I would like to emphasis, again, that some of the Internal methodologies are not apparent to those who have no points of reference.

A totally "Externally" trained mind will look at Baguazhang's circle walking as see "fighting" footwork. The same mind will look at Siu Lim Tao and see striking hand techniques. In both cases this mind will ask, "but there are better ways of training footwork and hand strikes, why train it this way?".

This is what has happened in this thread (and others in this forum) so many times, including our own exchange here. The key is this. When two people look at one thing using two separate points of reference, then an agreement is difficult. One of them has to step back and realize that his point of reference just does not cut it.

You'll note I'm trying very hard to be polite. In keeping with this I will not engage in a flame war with you. However if you continue to do nothing but sling insults
I have not slang insults at you. However, when people claim a zillion years of experience and "authority", including in the Internals, but do not know the real purpose of Baguazhang's Circle Walking training and inspite of the fact that they don't know go on to make hypophesis about that very art. Then the whole discussion becomes humouros.

However, I still did NOT throw insults at you, I just called it the way it was, and you pretending that I am having a flame war with you would indicate other agendas on your part.

at me I will do to you what I did to Hendrik, Mattador and YiQuanOne - put you on my ignore list.

I don't know about Mattador, as he is new here, but Hendrik and YiQuanOne, possess good knowledge of Internals and authentic methodologies. Why would you put people who could teach you so much about the TCMAs on ignore?:confused:

Also, one more point about the Internals. Tai Chi is a lethal fighting art, but like most kung fu styles is not taught properly in most places. IMHO, it is unwise to judge the effectiveness of this art based on the prevalent bad teaching rather than the content of the art itself.:)

Hardwork108

07-19-2011, 10:55 PM

Looks that way. He came across as an airhead, but IMO other posters' forum behaviour have been worse than his (not claiming to be a paragon of virtue myself). In any case, I support the mod's decisions.

I have read his posts in his threads and I did not see any baneable offence in his writings. It may have been something he wrote in another thread? Or perhaps a PM argument with one of the moderators?

I hope that Gene or Sihing73 can clarify why YiQuanOne was banned.:confused:

GlennR

07-19-2011, 11:04 PM

I have read his posts in his threads and I did not see any baneable offence in his writings. It may have been something he wrote in another thread? Or perhaps a PM argument with one of the moderators?

I hope that Gene or Sihing73 can clarify why YiQuanOne was banned.:confused:

The last i heard of him we had one of our friendly exchanges, he was moaning about me on the main forum page.

Wasnt that heated, but then i never saw his response so who knows

Hardwork108

07-20-2011, 01:48 AM

The last i heard of him we had one of our friendly exchanges, he was moaning about me on the main forum page.

Wasnt that heated, but then i never saw his response so who knows

Well, I hope that one of the moderators or Gene himself can explain what happened. The man did not seem to have an offensive posting style. So, this is kind of a mystery.:confused:

SimonM

07-20-2011, 05:13 AM

You have misunderstood my position. Baguazhang, like all kung fu styles is a battlefield art, in that it is designed to kill or maim the opponent as rapidly as possible. The last time I looked, skills such as that are useful on any battlefield where circumstances may lead to hand to hand combat.

We are working from different perspectives of what "battlefield" refers to. My operating definition is a martial art that works well with group tactics in pre-modern military engagements.

Bagua does not meet that test. Using Bagua on an actual battlefield would get you killed quickly.

When I referred to the "battlefield" when mentioning your post, I did so meaning the aspect of fighting or COMBAT. The fact is, those who know will tell you that the real purpose of cirlce walking is NOT for any fighting application!

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck it's probably a duck.

Notwithstanding superstitious metaphysical shoe-horning circle walking looks like a footwork drill, quacks like a footwork drill.

This suggests that you think that circle walking practice is for fighting applications. You refer to the battlefield, but that is not the point. You state that Circle Walking would not be effective in the battle field. I am saying that Circle Walking was not designed for fighting, even if it may work in Samurai movies, where one may get the idea of dueling from.

Actually my experience with duelling footwork and practice comes from practising several different types of duelling sword work, including fencing, medieval European sword work (arming sword) and jian.

My opinion of Bagua is that it was probably devised for that reason - but I never said it was particularly good at it. Fact is that I have a moderately low opinion of Bagua, as I have seen it.

I would say the footwork that comes with it may be helpful, but the actual purpose of circle walking is NOT about combat application! You seem not to be aware of that fact, despite your claimed years or decades of training in arts that include the Internals or perhaps as you would put it, the "internals".

No, I'm not unaware of internals. I just reject the operating premise underlying "internal martial arts" for their claim to distinction from "external" arts.

There are 3 components to "internal" arts:

1) Power generation, body sensitivity training and posture found equally in so-called external martial arts.

2) Superstition.

3) A few clever little tricks for impressing a crowd of rubes as long as you have things like a compliant partner and some theatrical ability.

Also, to connect what we are talking about to the actual subject matter of this thread, I would like to emphasis, again, that some of the Internal methodologies are not apparent to those who have no points of reference.

The thing that has been bugging me about the proponents of 'internal' martial arts is the suggestion that I'm an ignorant outsider with no experience in the profundity of their art.

I'm quite the opposite. I'm somebody who gave internal martial arts a fair shake several years ago and found them sorely lacking. As a person who holds reason as the highest virtue I'm perfectly willing to see evidence that proves me wrong.

So far all I've gotten is claims that I don't know what I'm talking about. So, again, please, prove me wrong. I would love to see some proof that there is something I missed.

But quoting rough translations of Zhuangzi at me and referencing hairy dog stories of Sun Lu Tang don't cut it - I'd like to see real proof of some sort please.

I don't know about Mattador, as he is new here, but Hendrik and YiQuanOne, possess good knowledge of Internals and authentic methodologies. Why would you put people who could teach you so much about the TCMAs on ignore?:confused:

Hendrik was very insulting to me and to people who matter to me. His arrogant posturing contained no offer to teach, merely insults at what I knew, dispersions cast off in ignorance to avoid having to answer my questions. Because of his disrespectful attitude I have lost any respect I might have held for him.

YiQuanOne said nothing I couldn't have got from looking at my library but interspersed it with, again, dispersions on how ignorant I must be to disagree with him.

Also, one more point about the Internals. Tai Chi is a lethal fighting art, but like most kung fu styles is not taught properly in most places. IMHO, it is unwise to judge the effectiveness of this art based on the prevalent bad teaching rather than the content of the art itself.:)

I've been all around the world and seen Taiji taught in many places. I've never EVER seen anything that even attempted to be a lethal fighting art. People can claim lethality, but if what I see is a gentle, health promoting, form of moving meditation I'm going to call it a gentle, health promoting, form of moving meditation, not a deadly fighting art.

Hardwork108

07-20-2011, 05:03 PM

We are working from different perspectives of what "battlefield" refers to. My operating definition is a martial art that works well with group tactics in pre-modern military engagements.

Bagua does not meet that test. Using Bagua on an actual battlefield would get you killed quickly.

My issue with what you said was that you used Baguazhang's Circle Walking to validate your hypothesis. Circle Walking' s main purpose has nothing to do with fighting and is related to the lesser known internal aspects of the art.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck it's probably a duck.
Those familiar with the concepts of "The Art of War" will be unwise to think that in MAs culturally related to them, the idea of "the duck" is always applicable.

Notwithstanding superstitious metaphysical shoe-horning circle walking looks like a footwork drill, quacks like a footwork drill.

Many who do not understand the science behind the Internals, refer to them as "superstition". I guess it is rather ego pleasing. This parallels, eventhough not exactly, the indigineos peoples seeing a white man for the first time with a mirror or a machine of some sort and thinking that they were seeing magic.

Actually my experience with duelling footwork and practice comes from practising several different types of duelling sword work, including fencing, medieval European sword work (arming sword) and jian.

IMHO, the cultural roots of Bagua and the "technologies" used in its practice put it far beyond the methodologies you have mentioned above.

My opinion of Bagua is that it was probably devised for that reason - but I never said it was particularly good at it. Fact is that I have a moderately low opinion of Bagua, as I have seen it.

Your opinion of Bagua is not surprising in a forum where most so called "kung fu" people have similar negative opinions regarding Wing Chun, Tai Chi, Mantis, etc. without having practiced them with genuine masters for a long enough a period.

Incidentally, there is a school of thought that sees Baguazhang as a higher level combat art than Hsing I and Tai Chi. I doubt that this school thought would have existed if Baguazhang was merely designed for dueling.

No, I'm not unaware of internals. I just reject the operating premise underlying "internal martial arts" for their claim to distinction from "external" arts.

Well, that is a contradictorar statement. You imply that you know that they exist and what they are, but you are saying that they are not different from the External MAs, which would mean that you actually don't believe that they exist????

There are 3 components to "internal" arts:

1) Power generation, body sensitivity training and posture found equally in so-called external martial arts.

Just the Power Generation aspect of the Internals has different methodologies to it, that most people who claim knowledge in the MAs do not understand. I would suggest that you look into the relationship between Circle Walking and power generation. ;)

2) Superstition.
I am not saying that superstition does not exist in certain methodologies, but generally speaking and as regards the Internals, one man's superstition is another man's SCIENCE!

3) A few clever little tricks for impressing a crowd of rubes as long as you have things like a compliant partner and some theatrical ability.

Well that would prove that when something looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is not always a duck - Art of War!

The thing that has been bugging me about the proponents of 'internal' martial arts is the suggestion that I'm an ignorant outsider with no experience in the profundity of their art.
The problem is that in internet forums such as this one every "kung fu" tagged martial artist that says Internals are ineffective; internals are out of date; internals are fantasy; Internals don't exist and etc. - will claim experience and exposure to Internals....LOL!

I only know for sure that I have had exposure to them because of PERSONAL EXPERIENCE and those who say that they don't exist or are ineffective for combat, have not got a clue!

I'm quite the opposite. I'm somebody who gave internal martial arts a fair shake several years ago and found them sorely lacking.
This forum is also full of people who make that exact claim!

As a person who holds reason as the highest virtue I'm perfectly willing to see evidence that proves me wrong.

So far all I've gotten is claims that I don't know what I'm talking about. So, again, please, prove me wrong. I would love to see some proof that there is something I missed.

But quoting rough translations of Zhuangzi at me and referencing hairy dog stories of Sun Lu Tang don't cut it - I'd like to see real proof of some sort please.

I admire your reasoning, but you are not going to see evidence in written literature in an internet forum. People can write many things, that includes me. You don't know me from Adam, so I can claim a million experiences that prove my point, however, you will never know for sure.

So, the ultimate proof would be for you to experience this personally with an Internalist master who is willing to show you the stuff beyong the razmatazz.

However, just like many here the dilemma may be wether you are willing to search for this type of tuition or have you found something that works for you so you'd rather train that and improve, instead of "wasting" valuable time looking for something that you believe that probably does not exist?

In my case I believed in my core that there was more to the TCMAs than kickboxing and I searched. To be honest the reaon I found good tuition (more than once) may have had to do a lot with luck, but still I always had my eyes open and searched.

Hendrik was very insulting to me and to people who matter to me. His arrogant posturing contained no offer to teach, merely insults at what I knew, dispersions cast off in ignorance to avoid having to answer my questions. Because of his disrespectful attitude I have lost any respect I might have held for him.

YiQuanOne said nothing I couldn't have got from looking at my library but interspersed it with, again, dispersions on how ignorant I must be to disagree with him.

I don't know the background of your problems with the above posters. All I can, and this is from personal experience here, is that sometimes people are insulted not so much by what others have said but how what they have said effects their egos.

Suffice to say, if you are looking to further your horizons, as regards the Internals, then you are better off interacting with people like Hendrik and YiQuanOne and dare I say, myself?

I've been all around the world and seen Taiji taught in many places. I've never EVER seen anything that even attempted to be a lethal fighting art. People can claim lethality, but if what I see is a gentle, health promoting, form of moving meditation I'm going to call it a gentle, health promoting, form of moving meditation, not a deadly fighting art.

I could make more or less the same comment about kung fu schools in general, including Wing Chun.

Actually, when my WC sifu uses tai chi on one then last thing that goes through your head is "gentleness" and "health promotion", even if he uses "softness" to introduce you to the ground.

So, it is a matter of personal experience and perspective based on that experience and we feel the need to expand our perspective then we need to search to enrich our experience of the given methodologies.

GlennR

07-20-2011, 06:22 PM

My issue with what you said was that you used Baguazhang's Circle Walking to validate your hypothesis. Circle Walking' s main purpose has nothing to do with fighting and is related to the lesser known internal aspects of the art.

At least he has a hypothesis, you have nothing.......... again

Many who do not understand the science behind the Internals, refer to them as "superstition". I guess it is rather ego pleasing. This parallels, eventhough not exactly, the indigineos peoples seeing a white man for the first time with a mirror or a machine of some sort and thinking that they were seeing magic.

BWAHAHA....... do you read the nonsense you write??
The big flaw in your argument (not that it is one) is that the white mans technology was superior, thats why they won. Go read a history book
Unfortuanetly, thats the opposite for your internal/external (i prefer realistic) argument... those that go the realistic way get better results. Go watch just about any MA tournament (any of them)

IMHO, the cultural roots of Bagua and the "technologies" used in its practice put it far beyond the methodologies you have mentioned above.

Once again you offer an opinion, nothing of substance

Your opinion of Bagua is not surprising in a forum where most so called "kung fu" people have similar negative opinions regarding Wing Chun, Tai Chi, Mantis, etc. without having practiced them with genuine masters for a long enough a period.

No, a lot of people challenge your empty argument that wirthout internal training their WC is lacking. You offer nothing to prove otherwise.... again

Incidentally, there is a school of thought that sees Baguazhang as a higher level combat art than Hsing I and Tai Chi. I doubt that this school thought would have existed if Baguazhang was merely designed for dueling.

Nothing again

Just the Power Generation aspect of the Internals has different methodologies to it, that most people who claim knowledge in the MAs do not understand. I would suggest that you look into the relationship between Circle Walking and power generation. ;)

Nothing again

I am not saying that superstition does not exist in certain methodologies, but generally speaking and as regards the Internals, one man's superstition is another man's SCIENCE!

No, science is science with measurable outcomes.

The problem is that in internet forums such as this one every "kung fu" tagged martial artist that says Internals are ineffective; internals are out of date; internals are fantasy; Internals don't exist and etc. - will claim experience and exposure to Internals....LOL!

No, again, its your zero-substance argument thats the problem

I only know for sure that I have had exposure to them because of PERSONAL EXPERIENCE and those who say that they don't exist or are ineffective for combat, have not got a clue!

And just like your argument, id suggest your experience has zero-substance as well

I admire your reasoning, but you are not going to see evidence in written literature in an internet forum. People can write many things, that includes me. You don't know me from Adam, so I can claim a million experiences that prove my point, however, you will never know for sure.

So, the ultimate proof would be for you to experience this personally with an Internalist master who is willing to show you the stuff beyong the razmatazz.

However, just like many here the dilemma may be wether you are willing to search for this type of tuition or have you found something that works for you so you'd rather train that and improve, instead of "wasting" valuable time looking for something that you believe that probably does not exist?

In my case I believed in my core that there was more to the TCMAs than kickboxing and I searched. To be honest the reaon I found good tuition (more than once) may have had to do a lot with luck, but still I always had my eyes open and searched.

Blablabla....

Suffice to say, if you are looking to further your horizons, as regards the Internals, then you are better off interacting with people like Hendrik and YiQuanOne and dare I say, myself?

Butt you offer nothin?? Nothing..... apart from a condascending attitude with a zero-substance argument to back it up

Hardwork108

07-21-2011, 03:44 AM

At least he has a hypothesis,
The problem nowadays, as far as the TCMAs are concerned, is that everyone and their grandmothers have hypothesis regarding authentic kung fu methodologies, mostly for lack of ACTUAL exposure.

you have nothing........
I have ACTUAL exposure to and training of authentic TCMA methodologies. That is all I need to be able to discuss Kung fu in a KUNG FU FORUM. ;)

BWAHAHA....... do you read the nonsense you write??
The big flaw in your argument (not that it is one) is that the white mans technology was superior, thats why they won. Go read a history book
You completely misundertood my comment....LOL,LOL!

Unfortuanetly, thats the opposite for your internal/external (i prefer realistic) argument... those that go the realistic way get better results.
I don't know about whatever "kung fu" tagged MA that you have trained, but my kung fu training is REALISTIC.

Go watch just about any MA tournament (any of them)
Yes, why didn't the authentic kung fu masters think of that? If you want to learn kung fu, then go and watch sports competition fighting...LOL!

Once again you offer an opinion, nothing of substance
My opinion is based on exposure to authentic kung fu, not sports martial arts! Try to comprehend that fact!

No, a lot of people challenge your empty argument that wirthout internal training their WC is lacking. You offer nothing to prove otherwise.... again
All kung fu styles have Internal aspects, some more than others. There is reason for that. Go and do some research and you will see.

Nothing again

Nothing again
How are you going to see anything besides "nothing", when you have not trained kung fu in a complete and holistic manner?

Sooner or later, you will have to realize that the flaw is with you.

No, science is science with measurable outcomes.
To see and recognize the given science, you will need a point of reference, which would come from actually TRAINING the methodologies in question, rather than any opinions that you may have formed because preconcieved and baseless ideas!

No, again, its your zero-substance argument thats the problem
IMHO, you are a victim of your own zero points of references regarding holistic TCMA training.

And just like your argument, id suggest your experience has zero-substance as well
You can "suggest" whatever you want, but the fact is that you have never actually trained kung fu in your life, as having experience in half baked and incomplete Wing Chun, does not make you a TCMA-ist and it certainly does not qualify you to make your baseless "suggestions"....;)

Blablabla....
So, me saying that people should experience a given discipline before forming opinions on it is "Blablalba"?

You are an "interesting" fellow, clueless, but interesting nevertheless.....LOL!

Butt you offer nothin?? Nothing.....

You see "nothing" because you have no point of reference based on any valid TCMA experience, hence knowledge. I might as well discuss Astro Physics with you, in which case you would see "nothing" as well.

apart from a condascending attitude with a zero-substance argument to back it up

There is nothing condecending about what I say. I suggest that you see it as such because your ego does not accept that your lack of actual experience in the area makes you unqualified to discuss the subject matter at hand. So, when someone mentions this fact, you see it as "condecending".

Go to any actual TCMA master, and they will tell you that major kung fu styles have both Internal and External elements and aspects (Yin/Yang). Logic would suggest that if you do not train both aspects, then you are MISSING something!

Based on that principle, I have drawn the logical conclusion that if people train Wing Chun, or any other Kung fu style, only externally, then they are missing something, hence cannot base their "opinion" of kung fu on an incomplete experience which have discarded fundemental aspects of their given style.

If you think that me saying such a thing as condecending, then I cannot do much about it. I would only suggest that instead taking such comments personally you go and research and see why such a school of thought exists. Of course, you would only do that if the TCMAs were a REAL passion, instead of a MA hobby among other MA hobbies.

nasmedicine

07-21-2011, 12:33 PM

wing chun is definitely an internal art.

I agree, it is absolutely internal. To think otherwise would be outright silly.

Hardwork108

07-21-2011, 02:54 PM

I agree, it is absolutely internal. To think otherwise would be outright silly.
Thank you! :cool:

anerlich

07-21-2011, 03:11 PM

To think otherwise would be outright silly.

Not as silly as making a blanket assertion with no evidence to back it up.

Hardwork108

07-21-2011, 03:18 PM

Not as silly as making a blanket assertion with no evidence to back it up.

Usually, those of us who ACTUALLY practice the TCMAs are the ones who have the evidence.

Those who do NOT actually practice the TCMAs, and have NEVER practiced them in their lives, inspite of what their egos want to believe, will never have the evidence they so desperatly seek. ;)

nasmedicine

07-21-2011, 04:03 PM

Not as silly as making a blanket assertion with no evidence to back it up.

The proof is in the pudding. Either you have met and felt internal martial arts or you have not. Either you have learned from a teacher who posses the ability or he/she does not. If it's evidence you want then seek out those who claim to practice their wing chun from an internal school of thought. However, trying to get an objective response for such a subjective matter is again silly.

To all those who want evidence, unfortunately there is no way to video tape how wing chun is or is not internal. (no chi blasts or one finger I make you fly 20 ft tricks either)

lol :rolleyes:

Eric_H

07-21-2011, 04:10 PM

Circle Walking' s main purpose has nothing to do with fighting

Yeah, that's wrong.

GlennR

07-21-2011, 04:16 PM

I agree, it is absolutely internal. To think otherwise would be outright silly.

Why?

Can you explain to me what benefits interrnal training would give my WC?

nasmedicine

07-21-2011, 04:17 PM

Yeah, that's wrong.

100% wrong.

nasmedicine

07-21-2011, 04:18 PM

Why?

Can you explain to me what benefits interrnal training would give my WC?

Nope. Ask your sifu. ;)

GlennR

07-21-2011, 04:23 PM

[QUOTE=nasmedicine;1117692]Nope. Ask your sifu. ;)[/QUOTE

Sifu says hey?

nasmedicine

07-21-2011, 04:24 PM

[QUOTE=nasmedicine;1117692]Nope. Ask your sifu. ;)[/QUOTE

Sifu says hey?

lol :p, well played Glenn, well played.

GlennR

07-21-2011, 04:46 PM

[QUOTE=GlennR;1117697]

lol :p, well played Glenn, well played.

Did your sifu tell you to say that as well?

lance

07-21-2011, 04:55 PM

When WSL said "internal benefits" he meant that what you are thinking is important! WSL did not believe in "chi" according to people I have spoke to that knew him. Ving Tsun is not like Tai Chi!!!

Your ideas about SLT, CK MYJ and BJ are totally different to the WSL lineage.

GH

When WSL said "internal benefits " he meant that what you are thinking is important ! So what are you really suppose to be thinking then ?

WSL did ' nt believe in " chi " according to people I have spoken to that knew him .

Then why does Sifu Gary Lam stress in breathing as you do the SLT set to keep your chi alive ? Why would Sifu Lam stress on chi , when Sifu wong did ' nt believe in chi then ?

Sure Ving Tsun is not like Tai Chi , because the movements are different that ' s why . Tai chi too it can go slow or it can go fast , depending on the situation itself .

My ideas concerning the 3 - sets of WC talks about what the sets has to offer the person that ' s it , and the WSL lineage is the samething .

And there are 2 types of chi the soft and the hard , the SLT set uses the soft chi .
the hard chi you can use it to fight . And kung fu without chi training will just be a physical exercise used for self defense , and if you don ' t beleive in chi too bad for you . Chi does work , you just have ' nt been able to experience it yet .

anerlich

07-21-2011, 05:02 PM

If it's evidence you want then seek out those who claim to practice their wing chun from an internal school of thought.

Do you make such a claim? If so, I'm following your advice - seeking you out for evidence.

Or any evidence that you aren't yet another anonymous internet warrior with "internal master" pretensions.

nasmedicine

07-21-2011, 05:08 PM

Do you make such a claim? If so, I'm following your advice - seeking you out for evidence.

Or any evidence that you aren't yet another anonymous internet warrior with "internal master" pretensions.

Please do, I would be more than happy to touch hands. I don't know what it is with certain people who get so angry on these forums. You seems to be one such person. Come out to NYC we'll train, talk, have a beer! (or some other beverage of your choice)

Matter of fact why not the week end of the 28th? User kung fu fighter will be coming down to meet up with me as well. Now that's what I would call a meet up.

We will be meeting in Columbus Park, Chinatown, NYC. :D

p.s. - I am not internal master, but I am a person who practices martial arts (Wing Chun in particular) and have my own opinions and experience.

p.s.s. - nobody likes a bully. :)

nasmedicine

07-21-2011, 05:10 PM

[QUOTE=nasmedicine;1117698]

Did your sifu tell you to say that as well?

maybe..:cool:

GlennR

07-21-2011, 05:12 PM

Please do, I would be more than happy to touch hands. I don't know what it is with certain people who get so angry on these forums. You seems to be one such person. Come out to NYC we'll train, talk, have a beer! (or some other beverage of your choice)

Matter of fact why not the week end of the 28th? User kung fu fighter will be coming down to meet up with me as well. Now that's what I would call a meet up.

We will be meeting in Columbus Park, Chinatown, NYC. :D

He's not angry and neither am i (i assume im one of the "angry" people), he just wants a logical explanation as to what you "internalists" have to offer over us poor external guys.

Simple really?

SimonM

07-21-2011, 05:17 PM

I'd say please direct me to somebody with "the true internal"tm in Toronto, Canada but I imagine that the internal proponents here would probably just come back with platitudes about how I have to seek them out for myself or some other such fortune-cookie wisdom so I don't think I'll bother. :rolleyes:

nasmedicine

07-21-2011, 05:19 PM

@ Simon: contact user Kung Fu Fighter, he is an accomplished martial artist and would know who to go to in that area. (since he's from there).

You wont know if it's real or fake until you try. The worst that can happen is that you discover it's not what you were looking for.

anerlich

07-21-2011, 05:19 PM

Matter of fact why not the week end of the 28th?

I'm sure you drop everything to travel across the globe to meet every anonymous poster you disagree with on the internet and then chi sao them to death, but I've got plans for that weekend at home in Sydney AUS. You might have noted Glenn is trying to organise a forum get together here. You'd probably be welcome, though don't bother packing that condescending attitude.

I don't know what it is with certain people who get so angry on these forums. You seems to be one such person.

You give yourself way too much credit :p. Is wrapping ad hominem attacks in guru-speak something they teach you at internal WC school? You and your fellow cultists (see, I can do it too!) seem to resort to it pretty quickly when your platitudes don't fly.

p.s.s. - nobody likes a bully.

Bwahaha. Go ask Sifu if he will pass you a tissue.

You wont know if it's real or fake until you try.

I have tried. I'm voting for fake.

The worst that can happen is that you discover it's not what you were looking for.

Or the best thing, depends on your POV.

anerlich

07-21-2011, 05:22 PM

KFF? any advice for Simon from your anonymous buddy in NYC?

nasmedicine

07-21-2011, 05:30 PM

He's not angry and neither am i (i assume im one of the "angry" people), he just wants a logical explanation as to what you "internalists" have to offer over us poor external guys.

Simple really?

okay, lets get one thing straight. Please do not label me as an internalist. I just practice wing chun with the idea that wing chun was from the begining/and still is an internal system (this is how I was taught MY wing chun). You can agree or disagree, or agree to disagree. Bottom line is that internal martial arts are not something that you can just explain very easily to the point where it is much better to touch hand with someone and have them feel what you mean. That's as plain and simple as I can put it. I'm a new poster on this forum however I am not new to this forum. I've been reading on the sideline for about 5 years. I am familiar with all the nonsense that has occurred here in the past. Having said that I humbly welcome anyone to NYC were we can meet and talk. Very similar to how Hendrik's has people meet up with him, even though Hendriks painstakingly writes and writes and write about what he is trying to explain, nobody understands. It's not until they have actually met with him that people when "OHHHH, That's what he was talking about!" That doesn't answer you question but that's the best response I can give you in regards to your concerns. :o

nasmedicine

07-21-2011, 05:33 PM

KFF? any advice for Simon from your anonymous buddy in NYC?

I knew it, you are angry! (or maybe you just have a little chip on your shoulder) lol :)

I'm not so anonymous especially in person. :cool:

SimonM

07-21-2011, 05:34 PM

okay, lets get one thing straight. Please do not label me as an internalist. I just practice wing chun with the idea that wing chun was from the begining/and still is an internal system (this is how I was taught MY wing chun). You can agree or disagree, or agree to disagree. Bottom line is that internal martial arts are not something that you can just explain very easily to the point where it is much better to touch hand with someone and have them feel what you mean. That's as plain and simple as I can put it. I'm a new poster on this forum however I am not new to this forum. I've been reading on the sideline for about 5 years. I am familiar with all the nonsense that has occurred here in the past. Having said that I humbly welcome anyone to NYC were we can meet and talk. Very similar to how Hendrik's has people meet up with him, even though Hendriks painstakingly writes and writes and write about what he is trying to explain, nobody understands. It's not until they have actually met with him that people when "OHHHH, That's what he was talking about!" That doesn't answer you question but that's the best response I can give you in regards to your concerns. :o

Nasmedicine I'll tell you what, since you are the one offering to "touch hands" with people who have not asked to do so, and since you are insisting that they must come to you to touch hands would you foot the bill?

Because I'm not wealthy enough to jetting off to NYC just to witness "internal." That's why I asked about "internal" exponents in Toronto.

After all, all I ever get when I ask "internal" players to differentiate IMA from the sound biomechanics present in ALL martial arts is "you have to experience it to understand."

Well, as a sceptical person I tend to think that rational explanations should be possible but if people want to adhere so rigidly to the "it can not be described, only experienced" camp, ok, I'm game. But it'll have to be on the cheap.

Bussing down to NYC from Toronto is not the cheap.

nasmedicine

07-21-2011, 05:35 PM

I'm sure you drop everything to travel across the globe to meet every anonymous poster you disagree with on the internet and then chi sao them to death, but I've got plans for that weekend at home in Sydney AUS. You might have noted Glenn is trying to organise a forum get together here. You'd probably be welcome, though don't bother packing that condescending attitude.

You give yourself way too much credit :p. Is wrapping ad hominem attacks in guru-speak something they teach you at internal WC school? You and your fellow cultists (see, I can do it too!) seem to resort to it pretty quickly.

I have tried. I'm voting for fake.

Or the best thing, depends on your POV.

If that's your opinion then that's fine with me. :) no skin off my back.

your the one questioning my validity, your the one who is being the instigator, and you now the one who doesn't want to come (obviously you are not because you are so far, and of course I would not travel that far either). So why are you trying to tear me down so much? I just don't understand.

nasmedicine

07-21-2011, 05:41 PM

Nasmedicine I'll tell you what, since you are the one offering to "touch hands" with people who have not asked to do so, and since you are insisting that they must come to you to touch hands would you foot the bill?

Because I'm not wealthy enough to jetting off to NYC just to witness "internal." That's why I asked about "internal" exponents in Toronto.

After all, all I ever get when I ask "internal" players to differentiate IMA from the sound biomechanics present in ALL martial arts is "you have to experience it to understand."

Well, as a sceptical person I tend to think that rational explanations should be possible but if people want to adhere so rigidly to the "it can not be described, only experienced" camp, ok, I'm game. But it'll have to be on the cheap.

Bussing down to NYC from Toronto is not the cheap.

Simmon, I told you Navin is from Toronto, and practices Wing Chun in that area. PM him and he can atleast point you in the right direction. I only say ask him because I trust his judgement and according to him the best wing chun in that area (his opinion but problem closer to fact) is a YKS school.

Also, I have never insisted. But I never turn down friendly training. :) beside I'm really poor, :(

anerlich

07-21-2011, 05:41 PM

I just don't understand.

Sucks to be you, I guess.

nasmedicine

07-21-2011, 05:48 PM

Sucks to be you, I guess.

no so much, but again your opinion is your opinion :rolleyes:

SimonM

07-21-2011, 05:52 PM

Simmon, I told you Navin is from Toronto, and practices Wing Chun in that area. PM him and he can atleast point you in the right direction. I only say ask him because I trust his judgement and according to him the best wing chun in that area (his opinion but problem closer to fact) is a YKS school.

Ah, but here's the problem, WC isn't internal. ;)

Now, you'll say probably, "but Simon, you don't believe there is a rational differentiation between internal and external. Just works and doesn't" and I'll say that's right.

And you don't have to convince me that there are things in WC that work. There are things that don't too and there are a few deficiencies (grappling effectively missing) but I'm not somebody who gets down on WC much for rational, reasonable approaches to punching, deflection and kicking.

So I, the "internal/external is a false dichotomy" kung fu player (thus called an "externalist" by IMA exponents because I don't buy into the distinction), who has crossed hands with PLENTY of WC players on two continents in the past hasn't ever seen "internal power" from WC that I can not rationally explain as body mechanics and application of physics.

If you posit there is nothing to IMA but body mechanics and an application of physics then, well, at that point we agree; but at that point Boxing is IMA, MT is IMA because the so-called "external" martial arts all use body mechanics and an application of physics to drive their techniques.

If everything is IMA, there is no dichotomy, and then we can get back to ascertaining whether the traditional IMAs, as communicated, can be effective and if so what rational principles drive the effectiveness or lack thereof.

Sorry if this sounds verbose.

I'll try to sum up:

Q: There is no internal therefore WC is not internal.
A: WC is internal, it uses internal principles.
Q: But WC uses body mechanics and physics to accomplish martial skill - are these internal?
A: No those are not internal.
Q: What are internal principles?
A: They must be experienced.
Q: Where can I experience these principles that are different from what I have experienced in WC?
A: Spar with a WC player.

Do you see the circular nature of the argument?

See why it doesn't work?

nasmedicine

07-21-2011, 06:02 PM

Ah, but here's the problem, WC isn't internal. ;)

Now, you'll say probably, "but Simon, you don't believe there is a rational differentiation between internal and external. Just works and doesn't" and I'll say that's right.

And you don't have to convince me that there are things in WC that work. There are things that don't too and there are a few deficiencies (grappling effectively missing) but I'm not somebody who gets down on WC much for rational, reasonable approaches to punching, deflection and kicking.

So I, the "internal/external is a false dichotomy" kung fu player (thus called an "externalist" by IMA exponents because I don't buy into the distinction), who has crossed hands with PLENTY of WC players on two continents in the past hasn't ever seen "internal power" from WC that I can not rationally explain as body mechanics and application of physics.

If you posit there is nothing to IMA but body mechanics and an application of physics then, well, at that point we agree; but at that point Boxing is IMA, MT is IMA because the so-called "external" martial arts all use body mechanics and an application of physics to drive their techniques.

If everything is IMA, there is no dichotomy, and then we can get back to ascertaining whether the traditional IMAs, as communicated, can be effective and if so what rational principles drive the effectiveness or lack thereof.

Sorry if this sounds verbose.

I'll try to sum up:

Q: There is no internal therefore WC is not internal.
A: WC is internal, it uses internal principles.
Q: But WC uses body mechanics and physics to accomplish martial skill - are these internal?
A: No those are not internal.
Q: What are internal principles?
A: They must be experienced.
Q: Where can I experience these principles that are different from what I have experienced in WC?
A: Spar with a WC player.

Do you see the circular nature of the argument?

See why it doesn't work?

I see what your saying, which is why a forum is a horrible place to try and "convince" people. Which is really what ends up happening. I myself am getting roped into that whole game. bottom line, internal or not! does it work.

What about Fungs people over in Australia. I would define what they do as "internal".

When I say internal martial arts, I'm not talking about the "cultist" people that annerich was speaking of earlier (and happened to put me in that category..ouch!) internal martial arts basically use optimum body mechanics so perfectly to the point that you can not "see" what they are doing. All adjustments are made internal minute changes in angle and weight distribution among other things. Good Tai Chi pushs hand practitioners do it all the time. There's a finace about how they get the job done. None of that magical mumbo jumbo.

Hydraulics play a major role as well I feel.

Any martial art can be internal, karate, MT, whatever whatever. Yes I will agree that at the highest levels of any martial art they are fighting "internally". And I really hate using that word because labels are often misrepresentative. When you say "internal" people automatically think that you are talking about chi blast, and bouncing people, and whatever the hell the rest of it is. It's not the case. Now having said that, i'm not a complete sceptic that maybe perhaps that other "fake" stuff isn't possible (although highly unlikely) because just because I haven't experience doesn't mean it doesn't exist but that's my POV.

GlennR

07-21-2011, 06:43 PM

I see what your saying, which is why a forum is a horrible place to try and "convince" people. Which is really what ends up happening. I myself am getting roped into that whole game. bottom line, internal or not! does it work.

Great, that opens a line of conversation

What about Fungs people over in Australia. I would define what they do as "internal".

I started with Fung in 1990 and ,due to a move, started a mainland style which i did for 6 years. On returning to Sydney i looked up Fungs main instructor with whom ive been training with since. So i have a take on their style.
They ARE big on structure ,and it is the basis for the system, but they dont link it with the more esoteric meaning of internal..... its about mechanics, simple as that.

Having said that, from where i sit, since Fungs death they seem to be heading a bit down the "mystical" route... IMO but i may be wrong

When I say internal martial arts, I'm not talking about the "cultist" people that annerich was speaking of earlier (and happened to put me in that category..ouch!) internal martial arts basically use optimum body mechanics so perfectly to the point that you can not "see" what they are doing. All adjustments are made internal minute changes in angle and weight distribution among other things. Good Tai Chi pushs hand practitioners do it all the time. There's a finace about how they get the job done. None of that magical mumbo jumbo.

Great, a reply with substance... thanks

Hydraulics play a major role as well I feel.

Interesting term, could you expalin that to me?

Any martial art can be internal, karate, MT, whatever whatever. Yes I will agree that at the highest levels of any martial art they are fighting "internally". And I really hate using that word because labels are often misrepresentative. When you say "internal" people automatically think that you are talking about chi blast, and bouncing people, and whatever the hell the rest of it is. It's not the case. Now having said that, i'm not a complete sceptic that maybe perhaps that other "fake" stuff isn't possible (although highly unlikely) because just because I haven't experience doesn't mean it doesn't exist but that's my POV

Fair enough

anerlich

07-21-2011, 07:23 PM

Having said that, from where i sit, since Fungs death they seem to be heading a bit down the "mystical" route.

Not all of them - Dave O'Donnell, one of Jim Fung's six senior students now guiding his organisation, trains BJJ with me at Lange's MMA in Manly. He's a pretty good purple belt.

internal martial arts basically use optimum body mechanics so perfectly to the point that you can not "see" what they are doing. All adjustments are made internal minute changes in angle and weight distribution among other things. Good Tai Chi pushs hand practitioners do it all the time.

I can accept that. Though I don't see any essential difference between that and what top level BJJ players or boxers do. Optimum body mechanics are optimum body mechanics, the internal/external labels have no relevance.

just because I haven't experience doesn't mean it doesn't exist

Perhaps not, but after a few decades of pretty well rounded experience and investigation one has to conclude the odds of its existence are fairly unlikely. If it was, you could start a show in Vegas and rake in the cash, or obliterate everyone in the UFC, WBA and WWE. Lots of money, kudos, national pride, fame, etc. for such a practitioner. For some reason they are all too humble and selfless and only want to teach secretly to people who want to remain anonymous on the internet ...

GlennR

07-21-2011, 07:27 PM

Not all of them - Dave O'Donnell, one of Jim Fung's six senior students now guiding his organisation, trains BJJ with me at Lange's MMA in Manly. He's a pretty good purple belt.

Yep, fair call.. ive met Dave i think at one of G. Kershners seminars, big guy isnt he? I was speaking about some of the academies later vids i have seen in regards to my earlier comment

I can accept that. Though I don't see any essential difference between that and what top level BJJ players or boxers do. Optimum body mechanics are just that, the internal/external labels have no relevance

Bang on

anerlich

07-21-2011, 07:39 PM

Yeah, Dave's over 6', probably 85-90 kg.

nasmedicine

07-21-2011, 07:43 PM

Great, that opens a line of conversation

I started with Fung in 1990 and ,due to a move, started a mainland style which i did for 6 years. On returning to Sydney i looked up Fungs main instructor with whom ive been training with since. So i have a take on their style.
They ARE big on structure ,and it is the basis for the system, but they dont link it with the more esoteric meaning of internal..... its about mechanics, simple as that.

Having said that, from where i sit, since Fungs death they seem to be heading a bit down the "mystical" route... IMO but i may be wrong

Great, a reply with substance... thanks

Interesting term, could you expalin that to me?

Fair enough

Chu Shong Tin (Tsui Seung Tin) I believe and with speaking with people who have trained with him definitely teaches Yip Man wing chun from a more "internal" angle. I don't know about the current state of fung's school.

The basic premise is if force is applied at one point/end it can be transmitted to another point/end if you are using an incompressible/nearly incompressible fluid within in a piston/cylinder. Wing Chun has Chi Gung which I define simply as the ability to move your blood to and from various portions of your body; this is usually but not alway in conjunction with breathing techniques. There is also an autonomic component that you can train through meditation (the same way you can slow you heart rate down by relaxing) When trained properly you can slightly vasodilate or constrict your vessels to help blood flow or not flow. This in conjunction with heart rate control/controlled breathing as well as muscle contraction (which aids in the venous return) can help propagate blood flow. When train correctly training you can then help guide (not control) blood flow to certain areas. For health it is great, you can push fresh oxygenated blood to tissue that need various elements that are found in your serum. Okay, so now having said all that you can also for example push blood into your arms and hands for kung fu (one example). Simply put I will mention two main things that this does (although there are others) 1.) It will provide ample amounts of oxygen and other metabolites to your muscles in the the desired area (the arms in this example). This will help combat fatigue and injury/inflammation during combat. 2.) the extra volume of blood in the arms will significantly increase the weight and density in the desired area (arms) allowing you to hit with more weight/passive force (internal) and less active force/intense muscle contraction (external) [forgive me for using internal vs. external, just doing it so people can follow]. In essence it similar to the pump you get when you work out (however not as exaggerated). So back to hydraulics you are compressing a relatively non compressible (due to the fact that it's in a somewhat closed system) fluid BLOOD, through a cylinder/piston VEINS and ARTERIES. By compressing one end of the parallel circuit you can then push the flow of blood through that circuit generating a force on the other end. (i.e. compression of interncostal vessels in rib cage, increase venous return to heart, more blood into subclavien into arms leaves you with a very very crude explaination of "chi" cultivation in the arms practiced by many "internal" southern kung fu styles (mantis, crane, and yes even wing chun). I really hope this all makes sense. If not then I'm sorry, I tried and I give up. :o

GlennR

07-21-2011, 07:43 PM

Yeah, Dave's over 6', probably 85-90 kg.

Im pretty sure thats him, im training with Beau Bouzaid who im sure he'll know

Runlikehell

07-21-2011, 07:50 PM

I started with Fung in 1990 and ,due to a move, started a mainland style which i did for 6 years. On returning to Sydney i looked up Fungs main instructor with whom ive been training with since. So i have a take on their style.
They ARE big on structure ,and it is the basis for the system, but they dont link it with the more esoteric meaning of internal..... its about mechanics, simple as that.

Having said that, from where i sit, since Fungs death they seem to be heading a bit down the "mystical" route... IMO but i may be wrong

When I started with one of their branches, one of the instructors told me (something along these lines) that TST 'found' a more internal interpretation. Which seemed a bit mystical to me, but the way TST himself tells it, Yip Man taught him about Nim Lik.

Make of that what you will.

nasmedicine

07-21-2011, 07:51 PM

I can accept that. Though I don't see any essential difference between that and what top level BJJ players or boxers do. Optimum body mechanics are optimum body mechanics, the internal/external labels have no relevance.

I never labeled anything, but unfortunately I'm forced to conform to the vernacular of who ever I'm speaking to. There is no difference/labels at the top. The truth is the truth, plain and simple. Whether you call the truth internal or perfect mechanics or chi or whatever. Truth is always the truth and you know it's the truth because you can't disprove it. (i.e. if you think your a good fighter (thus you think you have the truth) and you come across another fighter who is better than you and defeats you by a wide margin (now has the truth). You then can do two things: 1.) realize that what you held as true before (you being the best) is no longer the case and start searching for the truth (i.e. train harder, better, and differently to overcome your opponent next time). or 2.) Be in denial and still think that you are truly great and your opponent was just lucky.

I think i'm getting tongue tied, to much truth..:p

GlennR

07-21-2011, 10:20 PM

Chu Shong Tin (Tsui Seung Tin) I believe and with speaking with people who have trained with him definitely teaches Yip Man wing chun from a more "internal" angle. I don't know about the current state of fung's school.

Yep he does, if by internal you mean body mechanices, relaxing etc. One of hs big things is Nim Lik.... what id call visualisation.

The basic premise is if force is applied at one point/end it can be transmitted to another point/end if you are using an incompressible/nearly incompressible fluid within in a piston/cylinder. Wing Chun has Chi Gung which I define simply as the ability to move your blood to and from various portions of your body; this is usually but not alway in conjunction with breathing techniques. There is also an autonomic component that you can train through meditation (the same way you can slow you heart rate down by relaxing) When trained properly you can slightly vasodilate or constrict your vessels to help blood flow or not flow. This in conjunction with heart rate control/controlled breathing as well as muscle contraction (which aids in the venous return) can help propagate blood flow. When train correctly training you can then help guide (not control) blood flow to certain areas. For health it is great, you can push fresh oxygenated blood to tissue that need various elements that are found in your serum. Okay, so now having said all that you can also for example push blood into your arms and hands for kung fu (one example). Simply put I will mention two main things that this does (although there are others) 1.) It will provide ample amounts of oxygen and other metabolites to your muscles in the the desired area (the arms in this example). This will help combat fatigue and injury/inflammation during combat. 2.) the extra volume of blood in the arms will significantly increase the weight and density in the desired area (arms) allowing you to hit with more weight/passive force (internal) and less active force/intense muscle contraction (external) [forgive me for using internal vs. external, just doing it so people can follow]. In essence it similar to the pump you get when you work out (however not as exaggerated). So back to hydraulics you are compressing a relatively non compressible (due to the fact that it's in a somewhat closed system) fluid BLOOD, through a cylinder/piston VEINS and ARTERIES. By compressing one end of the parallel circuit you can then push the flow of blood through that circuit generating a force on the other end. (i.e. compression of interncostal vessels in rib cage, increase venous return to heart, more blood into subclavien into arms leaves you with a very very crude explaination of "chi" cultivation in the arms practiced by many "internal" southern kung fu styles (mantis, crane, and yes even wing chun). I really hope this all makes sense. If not then I'm sorry, I tried and I give up. :o

I appreciate your reply.... but... if the above could be proven to work (im always open to different ideas) is it really going to help me be a better fighter?

Not wanting to harp on, but the external method seems to give better consistent results

anerlich

07-21-2011, 10:50 PM

nasmedicine

07-22-2011, 04:11 AM

Yep he does, if by internal you mean body mechanices, relaxing etc. One of hs big things is Nim Lik.... what id call visualisation.

I appreciate your reply.... but... if the above could be proven to work (im always open to different ideas) is it really going to help me be a better fighter?

Not wanting to harp on, but the external method seems to give better consistent results

Better fighter no, more efficient yes. IMHO

I agree but those gains are less appreciated in the higher age population. And ofcourse I'm not joining the ufc anytime ever so the health proponent is also very important to me. The fighting is extra gravy (really good gravy)

nasmedicine

07-22-2011, 04:18 AM

I'm not convinced that any serious hydraulic principles as discussed can be easily applied when blood pressure is cycling systolic/diastolic with every heartbeat.

If you're arms are becoming heavier and denser, it also seems they would be harder to move and control. Most fighters seem to have enough problems holding their hands up to protect their heads when fatigued as it is.

Blood accumulating the limbs might also lead to an increased risk of thrombosis, though it was also said that venous circulation was enhanced, which would mitigate such a risk, though how you get both happening at the same time seems problematic, gets filled up fast but also drains fast ... somehow. doesn't sound like a healthy practice, in any case.

You would need some fierce autonomic control for it all not to fall apart when your heart rate gets above 170 bpm, e.g. in the middle of a hard fight where your life may be at stake. You have problems with fine motor skills under such stress, let alone such fine autonomic control.

As far as you being or not being convinced is not relevant. Also, It's not easy never said it was easy and one may never be able to use it for fighting. However if you can do it great. You will not see most professional fighters doing this training because it will take up to much time, time they can be using for other thing. However some of the top tier Gracie do practice this to some degree. They are now teaching and no longer actively fighting professionally.

Hendrik

08-21-2014, 01:00 PM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4Zrk2qJydt4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

anerlich

08-23-2014, 12:07 AM

Exhumed!

Just looking back to the last couple of posts:

I never labeled anything, but unfortunately I'm forced to conform to the vernacular of who ever I'm speaking to

Oh, get your hand off it. You used the word "internal" twice in the post you made above to which I responded to which you gave the above response. Have a look for yourself. You seem to be treating your audience as being much less intelligent and knowledgeable than yourself, An approach which I suggest is both arrogant and incorrect.

As far as you being or not being convinced is not relevant.

If you can't convince me you aren't making sh*t up, chances are you won't convince anyone else either. Up to you whether that is relevant, I guess.

However some of the top tier Gracie do practice this to some degree. They are now teaching and no longer actively fighting professionally.

Which top tier Gracies? Rickson? Kron? No Gracie alive is much more top tier.

They have some interesting breathing and Gynastica Natural / Yoga practices going but I've not heard of this blood moving methodology despite having a more than casual interest in such topics and the history of BJJ and the Gracie family, and having studied internal MA for over five years.

Surely Rickson would have used it if it actually worked. He and Kron have given extensive interviews on their breating and associated practices, which Rickson was taught by Orlando Cani, the Gynastica Natural guy, who (according to Rickson) told Rickson that he had taught Rickson everything he had to give. No mention of this blood stuff, unless he's secretly keeping it from the BJJ world including his students but for some reason is happy to share it with Kung Fu people on another continent.

I've been doing BJJ for about 15 years and am naive enough to be confident I could probably find out more about this than a random New Jersey Kung Fu guy could (no offence). Happy to start down that track and report back if you can tell me which Gracie(s) I should research.