Is Wing Chun Internal?

[Scott]

I don't think so. What do you think? Back it up with theories and actual fact, not preference or fond wishes.

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

[Scott]

Here's mine. I don't think Wing Chun is an internal system, based off a collection of facts and experiences.

1) Other internal stylists definetly think that Wing Chun is externally based, using jing power rather than internal buildup of chi to execute the moves. This could probably be discounted, though, because what does a Bagua man know about Wing Chun? But still worthy of consideration.

2) Historically, not counting the Yim Wing Chun LEGEND (it may be true, but we know that Wing Chun was in existence over 200 years before Yim Wing Chun was alive. However, she probably did make the system famous and rename it after herself. Wing Chun is a system probably made to teach groups of peasants how to fight in a short amount of time--this explains why 80% of the training involves two people--you're teaching two people something at the same time, which is faster and leads to actual combat skills in shorter amounts of time.
Also, Wing Chun was made presumably with the idea of cutting out uneconomical moves from traditional southern styles--internal styles are mostly comprised of moves that seem uneconomical when compared to 'combat reality' moves. I think the people who created Wing Chun were probably seen much as we see combat realists/MMA people in our times.
3) Most of ideas regarding Wing Chun as an internal style seem to branch from the first 6 moves of Sil Lim Tao, which are done extremely slow. When asked why it is done so slow, many people assume it is done slow for the same reasons Tai Chi sets are done slow (and they are at about the same pace,) which is to collect and store and cultivate Chi. Well, this isn't necessarily the case--and even seems unlikely, since there are no other slow moves in the entire system.
A more plausible explanation is that in Sil Lim Tao, you are learning the very basics of Wing Chun, and thus the base that all the rest of your knowledge stems from. If you learn to perform all of your moves perfectly from the start, you will have a strong foundation on which to base your skills. Now, think again. Why are the punches done 3 times, slow motion, and then 3 more at the end? Which move are you most likely to be doing the most in your Wing Chun career? The straight punch is the heart of Wing Chun, coming from the centerline to your opponent's centerline--the poetic basis of Wing Chun--Heart to Heart.
Look at the other slow moves--(their chinese names escape me, so I will use English descriptions to explain them) the tan sau, the hand ridge block (god, why can't I remember it's Chinese name? =P I know I know it,) and the hooking block. TThe hand ridge block and the Tan block and the hooking hand block are three of the four root blocks, from which every other Wing Chun block is based off of. The only block not present in these three moves that comprises one of the root blocks is the Bong Sau, which sort of makes sense, since the Bong Sau has no other blocks which resemble it--it sort of stands alone. The slow returning ridge hand block builds up arm strength, and once again it is teaching you the EXACT positioning for the blocks so that your base for learning Wing Chun is strong.

Those are my points. What points are there that support Wing Chun as an internal system?

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

[Watchman]

>>>What points are there that support Wing Chun as an internal system?<<<

Because Ip Ching says so, and as the great Cookie Monster once said, "That's good enough for me."

BTW, didn't we already discuss this in the "SLT fast or slow" thread?

>>>I don't think Wing Chun is an internal system, based off a collection of facts and experiences.<<<

You didn't state any "facts".

>>>What do you think? Back it up with theories and actual fact<<<

No, I don't want to. :D

Watchman&reg;

[Sam]

Siu Lin Tao (Little Transmutation) Golden Bell Heavy Hei-Gung.
Chum Kue (Depressing Bridge)Light skills Hei-Gung.
Biu Gee (Darting, Thrusting, Penetrating Fingers)Dim Mak extending Chi.
All forms utilize internal energy tork and Fa Ging. www.buddhapalm.com (http://www.buddhapalm.com)

[edward]

wing chun is definitely an internal art.

[Scott]

That's not very effective =P

Sam, where did you get your definitions for the sets? I've never heard them defined that way.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Siu Lin Tao (Little Transmutation) Golden Bell Heavy Hei-Gung.
Chum Kue (Depressing Bridge)Light skills Hei-Gung.
Biu Gee (Darting, Thrusting, Penetrating Fingers)Dim Mak extending Chi.
All forms utilize internal energy tork and Fa Ging. [/quote]

First, there is no definite way to translate the symbols that stand for any of the sets or the words "Wing Chun" themselves-- we can only guess. But I've always heard Sil Lim Tao to mean "Little beginning idea", Chum Kiu to mean "Searching the bridge," and "Biu Gee" to mean something about thrusting fingers. Biu Gee doesn't seem to be about Dim Mak to me, but rather about recovering the center line with damaging techniques--hence the odd angles on attacks. I don't see any evidence of showing "secret striking points" either, just the usual eyes, throat, that sort of thing.

More opinions?

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

[Stranger]

For what it is worth, William Cheung has written that the art is internal in his opinion.
First Form is covered in his book "How to Build Chi Power" and focuses on internal development.
He would agree with Sam that the third form is a dim mak form, it is written in the aforementioned book.

"Luminous beings are we."

[JasBourne]

My personal opinion is that it is internal. I'm not advanced enough to pull out any 'facts' to support my statement, other than it feels pretty ****ed internal to me, so that's where I put most of my focus when I practice.

[Highlander]

As it was explained to me, there are internal elements in Wing Chun, but that does not make it an internal system. It is an external system because of one thing, it is not dependent on the internal. That is, Wing Chun works because of body alignment and structure not internal power. If you completely removed the internal from Wing Chun it would still be an effective art. In fact some school do not teach the internal. As has been mentioned here previously, not all school do Sil Lum Tao slowly. Some school even use dynamic tension in the first form.

Actually, one of the principles Wing Chun is based on is the principle of Yin and Yang. Therefore, Wing Chun contains both internal and external elements is equal proportions. So I prefer to think of Wing Chun as a balanced art

[cho]

I'm part of the school of thought that believes every art requires both internal and external. I think this especially applies to Wing Chun.
Some people I've seen do nothing but the Chi Sau and practice the SLT as if it was qigong, but don't do the punching or drills. Those people get beaten and make Wing Chun look bad. Then there are those who do the opposite and train it as if it was kickboxing. They have a better chance in a fight.
As Fist of Legend put it,
"Hard without soft only wastes energy. Soft without hard can never strike."s

[shaolinboxer]

Internal, external. One doesn't exist without the other.

[Kaitain(UK)]

all we work is rooting, body alignment, structure and mechanics

the WC guys I train with were surprised at the 'real' nature of my style - if I tried using the postures of the form as they are practiced I'd get a beating. It's all about principles of movement - surely a similiar concept to WC?

There's nothing I talk about to my WC friends that doesn't appear in some form in their own system e.g rooting, power from the waist, slipping/avoiding/passing rather than blocking/attrition, unending flow of attack, no retreating, attacking the centre.

I move slowly in the form so I can move quickly - no restrictions, no tension, just fluidity. Nothing to do with building up some mystic force - just perfect shape and movement.

The biggest difference we've encountered so far is that ****ed sticking legs **** you guys do - it has really improved my awareness of the whole fight.

It's hard to stick a label on WC though as there are so many conflicting views - I have pushed with WC guys who were as soft and fluid as me, and others who were harder than a karateka. The soft guys were the hardest to fight - WC doesn't seem to work when it's hard and tense.

Wish we didn't have such a bad image :(

Anyway - in answer to the question I'd say WC was internal as you aren't reliant on conditioning, strength or speed. The guys I sparred with used technique, timing, strategy and most of all sensitivity.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[MikeDensity]

I tend to agree with Highlander about there being a balance in Wing Chun's theory. Obviously, some schools teach more of a hard approach and some schools teach more of a soft approach. Wing Chun only exists in the minds of its practitioner and is therefore subject to being filtered through imperfect humans. If Wing Chun is practiced by one who doesn't understand it's internal power it will appear to be a very hard martial art. Just as Tai Chi, when taught by someone who doesn't understand its internal aspects, will look a lot like dancing rather than Kung Fu.

I have a lot of difficulty figuring out what is meant by internal power. If by internal power you mean: does Wing Chun stress and teach proper mental focus, bodily structure, and form? I'd say yes, it is meant to. The purpose of the Siu Lum Tao, according to Ip Man, was the internalizing of the Wing Chun repertoire.

So, this is all in my own humble opinion. I'm not sure what theories and facts you're interested in? Quotes from Wing Chun masters, a Wing Chun training syllabus, stories about Wing Chun masters who had cultivated enough internal power to jump 30 feet straight up, something like that?
:) Lemme know, and good luck on finding an answer to your inquiry.

Mike

[Watchman]

>>>Wing Chun only exists in the minds of its practitioner and is therefore subject to being filtered through imperfect humans. If Wing Chun is practiced by one who doesn't understand it's internal power it will appear to be a very hard martial art.<<<


Very good point.


Watchman&reg;

[old jong]

Wing chun can be practiced as an external art but is really internal.All the training(forms) is internal.

happens!

[Kumkuat]

Describe HOW and WHY Wing Chun is an internal art.

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

How about first, what is your definition of an "internal" art?

Thanks!
Sandman[Wing Chun]
Wing Chun Forum Moderator.
Student-www.authentickungfu.com

[northstar]

The division of CMA into external and internal is pretty useless. All styles have elements of both, this is the meaning of yin and yang.
Literal translations of the form names:
1. Siu lim-tau: "siu" means small/little, "lim" by itself means think of, remember, study, "tau" means head. BUT, lim-tau (that's a composite word) means "idea".
2. Cham kiu: "cham" means seek, search, look for. "Kiu" means bridge, or any bridge-like structure or the beams of a structure.
3. Biu ji: "Biu" is most often written with a character meaning show, mark, symbolize or symbol etc, but there is another character pronounced exactly the same way but written slightly differently that means dart, spear, javelin or any harpoon-like weapon. "Ji" means finger, and also to point.
These are the literal translations of the characters used to write the Cantonese words, and not interpretations of the "meaning" of the forms. All the words are in Yale transcription (pinyin equivalents are: xiao niantou, xun qiao, biao zhi).

[Kumkuat]

Well, I'll just link you to the thread in the Taiji and the Internal martial arts forum. Whatever Josh_f says is pretty much accurate from what my experiences.

internal/external (http://forum.kungfuonline.com/1/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=126197291&f=123191102&m=6751961312&p=2)

[Chum Kil]

I believe it is, but not to the same extent as Tai Chi, Pau Kau, Hsing I. What I was told once it's a issunce of power. I've also been told to help your Wing Chun try Zhan Zhong.

John

Have little and gain;
Have much and be confused.

[MikeDensity]

The yin/yang issue Northstar and the definition of external/internal by Josh_F reveals a good point. Any martial art that is relying on external power is inherently flawed. The bigger and stronger opponent will always win.

If anything, it seems to me that the goal of martial arts is to give an advantage to the studious and focused practitioner rather than the outwardly strongest. If Wing Chun or any martial art was external (assuming by external you mean totally devoid of internal development exercises) then it may as well be wrestling (not that there's anything wrong with wrestling ;) ) And if that were true, I think we'd spend most of our training time lifting weights rather than doing the forms, Chi Sao, etc.

Hopefully not being the pedantic, quote-spewing scholar that Josh_F referred to, here is a quote that gave me some insight into this discussion:

Power of mind is infinite, while brawn is limited.
-Koichi Tohei

I hope this is true, because if it's not I'll be forever getting my butt kicked! :D

Mike

[[Censored]]

If "internal" means that the yi (not li) leads the qi, how can we argue that Wing Chun is not internal?

I have heard that Yip Man himself said WC is not internal. But, I have also heard that the prevailing attitude of the time was that "internal arts are for nerds" :p

[S.Teebas]

Short term, the external may produce faster use for self defence. But the internal, which takes longer to get good results from, will in the long run produce the most powerful results...


S.Teebas

[Kumkuat]

How come Wing Chun is not noted as an internal art like Taiji, Xingyi, or Bagua? Or even a semi internal art like baji, Tong Bei Quan, Aikido, etc.,

Also can you internal power with the Internal-Rotated-Adduction-Stance? Is it like the standing post stance in Taiji or squatting monkey stance in Xingyi?

What about chain punching? When I did learned wing chun, chain punching seemed like a lot of arm power to me. Of course, I could of been with some guy who didn't know anything about internal wing chun or didn't bother teaching me the internal aspects of it.

[Armin]

Hi guys!

What do you think about this idea: Ving Tsun is both - internal and external. It depends, as always, on your enemy. If he's "weaker" you'll fight more external, if he's stronger you'll fight internal. Isn't that the idea of giving way? If you're stronger (or have more power due to a better structure) you just punch through. If you're weaker you change e. g. into Bong Sao.


Armin.

[mun hung]

In my opinion, Wing Chun contains both internal and external elements. Why would'nt it. Both mind and body have to be developed equally to truly understand and appreciate the art. Yin and Yang - it's there.

There is something very internal about performing the siu nim tau, but then again there is something very external about kicking someones a$$ using techniques from it. Would'nt you agree? ;)

[Ars vitae]

Personally, I find WIng Tsun an interesting arts, with elements in both. Although it doesn't use force with force, instead it uses sticking and listening to energy. You would think it wouldn't be external. However to my limited knowledge I haven't seen any chi cultivation exercise's you'd expect in an internal. On the other hand Sil nim tau, does place you in a meditative state and chum kui does get my chi flowing. Does this place it within a category of it's own?

[tiger_1]

wing chun have internal parth tho is basic for progresiv chi sao . chi sao alone is allmoust noting but here is strong intonjutsy for suport. not just my opinion but sure .- friendly tiger_1 :cool:

/

[cha kuen]

The only internal styles are tai chi, pa kua, hsing yi and waterboxing. (also variations of)

Wing chun is NOT an internal style.

BUT

It certaintly has internal aspects. Every kung fu style has internal aspects. If they didn't, then it wouldn't be kung fu.

Your chi is stored in the tan tien, regardless of style. Hands should be soft and hard utilizing Yin and Yang.

That's what people mean when they say that wing chun can be "internal."

[Watchman]

>>>The only internal styles are tai chi, pa kua, hsing yi and waterboxing. (also variations of)
Wing chun is NOT an internal style.<<<

So, what is it exactly about Hsing-I (to use an example) that makes it an "internal" art?

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung

[cha kuen]

You might want to ask Shifu Patterson!

www.hsing-i.com (http://www.hsing-i.com)

[kungfu cowboy]

I think that the physical movements of wing chun are designed around the human body to the degree that the priciples can be used in either an internal or external interpretation. It seems a neutral design, and both methods will produce results. Or something.

(I seriously need a life.)

[JasBourne]

How it seems to be working for me is that paying mind to the principles allows me to express those principles physically. If my mind is on an 'external' application of movement, I tend to violate the principles in one form or another. For instance, if I'm using fok sao, and my mind is on the external application, I will tend to use a clamping force rather than a forward energy, and hunch over to boot. If I keep my mind on the principles of the fok sao (internal focus)while drilling, I am much more likely not to automatically use poor posture and inefficient energy when employing the fok in sparring, thereby getting much better results from that tool.

So paradoxically, by focusing 'in', I can express 'out' without having to think about 'out'. I personally think that all the forms have built into them a constantly re-inforcing internal loop.

I don't know that one can understand or achieve 'no-mind' through academic discussion of the subject. I think you have to 'just do it' :D

[Watchman]

From Sifu Patterson's site:

"The original meanings of Internal vs. External kung fu have been largely misconstrued over the last generation due to many "oral" variations of the many different kung fu families trying to paint a picture showcasing their own individual style. So, now adays a person hears many incorrect statements regarding these differences such as External Styles are "Hard" and Internal Styles are "Soft", but in reality the original meaning of this "difference" was entirely philosophic and geographic. The original me aning of the external styles was simply that those styles were originally started by Da Mo and the ShaoLin temples (buddhist philosophy) who purportedly came from India, and was hence from outside China (External Style). And the original meaning of "Internal" was to denote those styles that were founded on the Taoist philosophy of Lao Tzu and were created inside of China (Internal Styles)."

Interesting interpretation. This definition explains your original remark.

Also this:

"It is also true, because of certain historical events, that nowadays the Internal school of thought focuses on not only self defense and external manifestations of ability, such as strength, stamina, flexibility and physical prowess, but also explores the inside of the practitioner’s development. Internal kung fu strengthens the internal organs and circulatory systems. It increases lymphatic circulation to aid the practitioner in removing toxins from the body more rapidly. It improves focus of mind and concentration of intellect. We also learn to apply the principles of Yin and Yang and the Five Elements, principles of redirection, absorption and reflection, evasion and entrapment, etc. These lessons are just as applicable strategically in a business meeting as they are in self defense and confrontation. A person need only be taught their essence of expression in the practical sense. This is also part of Internal kung fu."

This explanation fits my training in Wing Chun as well, so I don't see the big difference in my "external art". I asked my question because I have worked out with a couple of Hsing-I guys in the past and didn't see a big difference in the way they developed and issued power than what I was doing, only that the fighting structure and ways of applying power were different.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung

[Kumkuat]

Xingyi is an internal art because it follows the six harmonies principle. You know, whole body connection, having the "spring" between wherever and the ground (to use Josh's term), heart leading the mind leading the qi. Also, peng jin being the basic, core jin.

[Watchman]

So, if I have a unified body structure, rooting my balance so my footwork is "springy", can express fa jing and explosive power (which I can) - doing so by training my mind to lead the energy - then doesn't that make Wing Chun an internal art by your definition?

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung

[Kumkuat]

Why aren't people here answering my questions? How and what makes Wing Chun internal? Don't tell me to define neijia is, I already did.Don't tell me that wing chun has both aspect, tell me how and why. Don't tell me that "oh wing chun moves with intent" tell me where a high level wing chun master said that. I can source you to a bagua master saying that if you want, but not any wing chun masters.

Also, no one has answered my question on why Wing Chun isn't regarded as an internal art like Taiji or semi internal art like baji.

Or about stance training with intent. Does the IRAS provide and build internal power?

Does chain punching involve just the dantien and intent instead of arm muscles to preform? Does it have peng jin?

Also, some additional questions. Does every wing chun movement emphasises moving with intent?

Any standing excercises like standing post and squatting monkey?

In taiji, we move slow so we can try to feel the connection and use our mind to lead the qi, does wing chun focus on that or just on forms and chi sao drills and such?

[kungfu cowboy]

I also think that internal methods take longer, but the results are usually superior, and can almost be refined indefinately. So there!

(I seriously need a life.)

[mun hung]

All this stuff is making me internally constipated! ;)

[[Censored]]

"Always maintain forward intent."

- Kenneth Chung

Is that high enough for you? :p

[kungfu cowboy]

Pack it up!!!

(I seriously need a life.)

[Watchman]

"Internal power is THE major concern of Wing Chun." -- Grandmaster Ip Ching

[Kumkuat]

I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear. When I mean intent, you use your mind to create a path from the ground to the point of contact. This is not a forward intent.

[Watchman]

>>>How and what makes Wing Chun internal?<<<

By the exact same criteria you used for Hsing-I.

>>>Also, no one has answered my question on why Wing Chun isn't regarded as an internal art like Taiji or semi internal art like baji.<<<

Don't take offense, but my immediate resonse to this question is: who cares? It may just be because even with Wing Chun's popularity, it is still greatly misunderstood. Whether or not the entire CMA community come together in some huge conference to officially declare Wing Chun as an internal art doesn't really matter to me. Outside validation isn't a big concern of mine.

>>>Or about stance training with intent. Does the IRAS provide and build internal power?<<<

I don't know what you mean by "IRAS", but Yee Chee Kim Yeung is practiced with the intent of squeezing power up through the legs through adduction pressure while simultaneously relaxing/sinking the shoulders to concentrate power/chi to the dan tien. And yes, it must be done with intent (Yi).

>>>Does chain punching involve just the dantien and intent instead of arm muscles to preform? Does it have peng jin?<<<

Chain punching involves the dan tien, yiu ma (waist/stance power), and proper elbow acceleration achieved through total relaxation. I don't know the definition of "peng jin", but if praciticed properly chain punching should express a characteristic whip-like explosive power.

>>>Does every wing chun movement emphasises moving with intent?<<<

Most definitely. If movements are not done with the intent leading them and gong lik (internal power) behind them, then you're doing what my Si Pak Eric Lee calls Fa Sau (flowery hand) movements with nothing behind them to do any real damage.

>>>Any standing excercises like standing post and squatting monkey?<<<

Yes: http://www.stgeorgewingchun.com/news/journal/internal_power.htm

>>>move slow so we can try to feel the connection and use our mind to lead the qi, does wing chun focus on that or just on forms and chi sao drills and such?<<<

All of the above.

>>>Don't tell me that "oh wing chun moves with intent" tell me where a high level wing chun master said that.<<<

Here's that quote from Ip Ching again:

Internal power is THE major concern of Wing Chun.

>>>When I mean intent, you use your mind to create a path from the ground to the point of contact.<<<

Yes, I was taught to use my stance and footwork to generate power from the floor to the point of contact. I train (with intent) to lock in and coordinate six points (ankle, knee, waist, shoulder, elbow, wrist) to focus my entire body behind each movement.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung

[Kumkuat]

Okay, Ip Ching did say it according to watchman. Maybe it is an internal art. But I'm not 100% convinced yet because I tried looking for resources that tell me wing chun is an internal art. I did find an interview with this wing chun master. The master did say Wing Chun was an internal art, but he did not say why. Is there any sources where he describes how Wing Chun is an internal art? I just need to see, just like how
Ma Chuanxu, Zhu Tian Cai, Dai Long Bang, Mike Sigman et al describe how bagua, xingyi, or taiji is an internal art. Thanks.

[Kumkuat]

Thank for the info watchman. At least you're the only one who tried to give me some explanation. What do you mean by "whip like explosive power"? Do you mean that the power releases from the legs then to the wiast, then to the arm, etc., in sequence like a wave in a whip? Thanks.

[Watchman]

Yes, and also because it creates a "snap" on contact like cracking a whip which creates a kinetic shockwave.

[Watchman]

>>>Do you mean that the power releases from the legs then to the wiast, then to the arm, etc., in sequence like a wave in a whip?<<<

Sorry, I didn't take the time to really think about your question before that last response...and the forum is posting slow so I can't just edit it.

Anyway, Wing Chun's punching power is generated from the waist and elbow acceleration, supported by the stance and arm structue which adds to the power on impact. If your arm structure isn't locked in with your stance (backed up by it), you're only hitting with your arm's physical mass. Using your entire body and leading your power with your intent gives the explosive effect (what I meant by "whip-like") on impact.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung

[CLOUD ONE]

That's a nice way of putting it.
Could you expand on what you mean by 'intent'?
Would intention be the same thing?

[Sam]

Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen contains Hei/Nei-Gung, Tork power, ********y power, shock power, breathe control, chi absorption, chi transferance, chi kong, and ethereal projection.

[jameswebsteruk]

Ive just got to ask, what in the name of Sweet Dick Willy is "ethereal projection"?

Frank

"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running
around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music."

[Watchman]

What I mean by "intent" is the Chinese definition of Yi, which can be translated as "intent", but could be explained more as "focused concentration of emotional content."

[kungfu cowboy]

I think he is referring to "astral projection".(now I'm scared!)

(I seriously need a life.)

[kungfu cowboy]

BTW, Frank Exchange, I love your signature! LOL!! :D

(I seriously need a life.)

[CLOUD ONE]

Can anyone explain what excersises you do to train for 'emotional content'?

[Sam]

Just a joke :D

[Watchman]

You can train emotional content using the gong lik "internal power" exercise contained in SLT.

If you can read Adobe Acrobat PDF files, I can email some articles to you that explain in detail the principles behind gong lik/intent/emotional content and the fighting mentality.

Let me know if you're interested.

[S.Teebas]

Kumkuat....

Wing Chun is most definately an internal art (although most practice it with external influence). How can you explain how women (where i train) are capable of totally dominating men twice their size, strength, weight? ...a very logical answer, the system is internal and baised on skill rather than "who has the biggest muscles wins".

[kungfu cowboy]

Not to argue with you, but all I see in that situation is correct use of body structure. Not necessarily an internal influence. I do however, support you in that wing chun is an art where internal methods produce the bestest results. Yay!

(I seriously need a life.)&trade;

[Kumkuat]

Even in internal arts, if both the male and female are at an even skill level, neither should be dominating right? However, if the guy weighs more, it would still be hard to throw him around even using internal power. 300 pounds is STILL 300 pounds, internal arts aren't magically gonna give you super levitation strength. Besides, if a male who weighs 300 pounds and a woman weighs 120 pounds and both have the same amount of internal skills, the man should have the advantage right?

[Rory]

I asked my master who teaches (wu style taichi) if wing chun was external or internal he answered 50/50 he said becasuse of the sticky hands practice it was exposing them to the elements of push hands wich are very internal.

[Watchman]

Wow, I'm sure glad I'm being "exposed". :rolleyes:

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung

[Aeturnal]

ive been thinking of doin wing chun for a while and im curious as to how much of an internal element wing chun has...im still confused about the internal/external argument and whther one should supplement an external style like say muay thai, with an internal like tai chi....so how much of an internal element is there in wing chun?

[Mr Punch]

Yep, you seem confused.

You tell us what you think internal and external mean and we'll tell you loads of different things about our very different wing chuns!

Start by checking out the schools in your area, get back to us about what they are telling you, and what they are doing, and we'll try and tell you!

[Aeturnal]

well ive done yang tai chi myself....im very interested in the internal concept but your average tai chi school doesnt do sparring or anything that resembles real fighting....wing chun seems to possess the internal and external aspect which is why ive taken an interest, but again....

[sihing]

Internal/External, hard/soft, these are all terms to complicate things. If your looking for fighting effectiveness in what you do drop these words from your vocabulary. There are elements of aggressiveness and passiveness in fighting for sure, you can't always use "The Bull in the China Shop" menatlity to win, as you may met a bigger Bull someday, so you be submissive for a moment, play the Bull fighter and let the force go by while taking it advantage of it. None of this is mystical, just common sense.

James

[k gledhill]

external hard system delivering maximum force into a point ground 2 pound ....
want internal do cardio ;) run 5 miles ...:D

[monji112000]

ive been thinking of doin wing chun for a while and im curious as to how much of an internal element wing chun has...im still confused about the internal/external argument and whther one should supplement an external style like say muay thai, with an internal like tai chi....so how much of an internal element is there in wing chun?

as much as you add to it. its not part of the original system.

[jet64]

ive been thinking of doin wing chun for a while and im curious as to how much of an internal element wing chun has...im still confused about the internal/external argument and whther one should supplement an external style like say muay thai, with an internal like tai chi....so how much of an internal element is there in wing chun?


straight answer, no, its not internal.

[YungChun]

IMO, after thinking this over for years...IS..

External = Low Road..

Internal = High Road..

Not soft and hard..

Low Road is technique that uses gross motor skills easily done under the adrenal dump..

High Road is technique that uses fine motor skills not easily done under the adrenal dump..

Most arts have both.. So it's up to the individual what he/she can use..

Low Road is accessible to all levels of experience..

Higher Road technique will work only for those who can retain more fine motor control and mental control over their glands.... :cool:

[t_niehoff]

IMO, after thinking this over for years...IS..

External = Low Road..

Internal = High Road..

Not soft and hard..

Low Road is technique that uses gross motor skills easily done under the adrenal dump..

High Road is technique that uses fine motor skills not easily done under the adrenal dump..

Most arts have both.. So it's up to the individual what he/she can use..

Low Road is accessible to all levels of experience..

Higher Road technique will work only for those who can retain more fine motor control and mental control over their glands.... :cool:

Great *theory* -- but the reality is, when you are fighting, you will not maintain "fine motor control". Nor will you control your glands (my Lord! where do people get such ideas?). And, it really has nothing to do with "adrenal dump" anyway. It has more to do with heart-rate, which pertains to our body adjusting to physical stress. When your heart-rate goes up over 145 bpm, complex and fine motor skills -- your motor coordination -- begin to deteriorate, and over 175 cognitive processing breaks down. This is just how our bodies function. Optimum range is 115 to 145. At that level, the stress actually imporves our performance. Only by practicing (sparring) in those ranges can we learn what things we can or cannot do and get enough rehersal doing them so that we are able to pull them off consistently.

My adivce to the original poster is to put the notion of internal/extrernal out of your mind -- it is a false "distinction" and is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how the world really works. Instead, look for mechanics that best suit the task at hand (i.e., produce the best results).

[YungChun]

but the reality is, when you are fighting, you will not maintain "fine motor control".

Different people exhibit different levels of fine motor control under stress.. Different people exhibit different levels of stress.. Different people are different.. Grapplers apply moves that could be defined as FMC..


Nor will you control your glands (my Lord! where do people get such ideas?)

From seeing and experiencing the affects of adrenal stress training.. With more conditioning stress levels drop..


And, it really has nothing to do with "adrenal dump" anyway.

BS. It certainly does...


It has more to do with heart-rate, which pertains to our body adjusting to physical stress.

And it has to do with "the dump" as this and stress are interconnected.. In any case with AST and sport fighting experience and sparring experience, all these things including cardio will aid in reducing stress.. People perform better when there is less stress, but not no stress.. :D

[Tom Kagan]

ive been thinking of doin wing chun for a while and im curious as to how much of an internal element wing chun has...im still confused about the internal/external argument and whther one should supplement an external style like say muay thai, with an internal like tai chi....so how much of an internal element is there in wing chun?


Internal vs. external is an arbitrary distinction which actually does not exist. It is a false duality.

The terminology was made up by Sun Lutang in the early 20th century. According to him, the only internal styles are Xing Yi, Tai Chi, and Ba Gua. Thus, according to this logic, everything in Ving Tsun is external no matter how much people might want to argue to the contrary.

So, pick one: internal, external, both, and/or neither. Using such labels to pigeonhole what is what within a given style won't change a thing, anyway.

[t_niehoff]

Different people exhibit different levels of fine motor control under stress.. Different people exhibit different levels of stress.. Different people are different.. Grapplers apply moves that could be defined as FMC..


Let's not make up our own definitions of FMC. Of course people are different. But generally, the parameters I indicated apply.

We become "better" at acting under stress by practice -- by acting under stress. And we come to understand how stress effects us by acting under stress.



From seeing and experiencing the affects of adrenal stress training.. With more conditioning stress levels drop..


As we become better conditioned athletes -- better accumstomed to fighting stresses on our body -- the greater amount of stresses we can handle. This is true of all athletics.



BS. It certainly does...


Adrenal dump has more to do with untrained people -- people dealing with unaccustomed stresses. I'm not saying that there isn't some adrenal activity involved. There certainly is. That's the butterflies any good fighter feels. But not a "dump." That's soemthing else entirely. And it inhibits skill.



And it has to do with "the dump" as this and stress are interconnected.. In any case with AST and sport fighting experience and sparring experience, all these things including cardio will aid in reducing stress.. People perform better when there is less stress, but not no stress.. :D

You don't "reduce stress" -- becasue the situation doesn't change. You become better able to deal with that level of stress by becoming accustomed to it. By dealing with it over and over again. The "dump" comes on because we get a huge shock to our system, something we are not accustomed to dealing with. For example, for womeone who never spars, a good shot to the head causes the "dump" but to someone who spars a lot, the same shot is just another day at the office. He's used to them.

[uki]

ive been thinking of doin wing chun for a while and im curious as to how much of an internal element wing chun has...im still confused about the internal/external argument and whther one should supplement an external style like say muay thai, with an internal like tai chi....so how much of an internal element is there in wing chun?dualism is an illusion. there cannot be one without the other. hard-soft, low-high, internal-external; all these words are merely labels that confuse the ignorant. practice according to the dictates of your mind. sometimes the weather is sunny and calm and at other times it is a raging hurricane; the same principles apply to martial arts.

[Mr Punch]

truth against the worldThe world is part of truth, like it or not. To deny it is illusory. And is there only one truth?

Now back to your scheduled programme. :D

[Chosen-frozen]

Great *theory* -- but the reality is, when you are fighting, you will not maintain "fine motor control". Nor will you control your glands (my Lord! where do people get such ideas?). And, it really has nothing to do with "adrenal dump" anyway. It has more to do with heart-rate, which pertains to our body adjusting to physical stress. When your heart-rate goes up over 145 bpm, complex and fine motor skills -- your motor coordination -- begin to deteriorate, and over 175 cognitive processing breaks down. This is just how our bodies function. Optimum range is 115 to 145. At that level, the stress actually imporves our performance. Only by practicing (sparring) in those ranges can we learn what things we can or cannot do and get enough rehersal doing them so that we are able to pull them off consistently.

My adivce to the original poster is to put the notion of internal/extrernal out of your mind -- it is a false "distinction" and is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how the world really works. Instead, look for mechanics that best suit the task at hand (i.e., produce the best results).


Hey genius, the increased heart rate is CAUSED BY adrenal dump.....unless you decided to do 20 minutes on the stairmaster before you began fighting.

[Liddel]

Hey genius, the increased heart rate is CAUSED BY adrenal dump.....unless you decided to do 20 minutes on the stairmaster before you began fighting.

I think he had a "im right your wrong" - internet brain F4rt. He prob didnt mean it literally... i hope :o

Its funny i was reading related articles about this today...scroll down to "Actions in the body"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenalin

[byond1]

yep - anyone who has been in a real fight, where you face possible death, which isnt a sport nor sparring, understands how adrenaline dump effects the body coupled with the increase of heart and breath rate.

Fight or flight is an AUTOMATIC responce, when internal or external preasure hits our nervous system via our senses. Adrenaline and cortisones are dumped into the blood stream, while the heart rate goes up, as does breath rate.

External stimulation effects those, who are used to physical exersise and stress with less adrenaline dump during fight or flight. While Internal stimulation effects those who are mentaly calm and relaxed (as well as comfortable in a fight or flight situation due to real experiance) less. Hence confidence is KING!!~

Breath control and tightening of the muscle groups near the andrenals, also gives one an amount of control to "Back off" some of the firing of the andrenals.

b

[YungChun]

Terence isn't thinking "Life and Death" he's thinking "Game-Set-Match"--the gaming mindset clearly showing through in his posts..

I'd be interested to see studies of the effects of meditation on controlling the adrenal response.. I would bet folks can learn to help control this response via such training in addition to other methods..

[Edmund]

Hmm.

When the term "Fine Motor Skills" is used generally it's referring to stuff like writing your name, threading a needle, aiming your gun etc.

It's not like humans become spastic retards when they get adrenal dumps. We wouldn't have survived in the wild if that were the case.

[YungChun]

Hmm.

When the term "Fine Motor Skills" is used generally it's referring to stuff like writing your name, threading a needle, aiming your gun etc.

It's not like humans become spastic retards when they get adrenal dumps. We wouldn't have survived in the wild if that were the case.
Many of the more delicate moves in the system come close or are FMC(fine motor control) and/or require precise use of energy.

The dump does adversely effect FMC but enhances GMC (gross motor control)--Fight or Flight response.. Over millions of years of evolution few folks were involved with TCMA..

So, regardless of what meant by Internal/External most TCMA have high road moves and low road moves.. Not all situations are going to cause a major dump but when it happens folks do tend to perform much more spastic than normal.. To get an idea try sparring after you do some wind sprints and your heart rate is over 150 BMP or so..

Sifu used to always say.."When you fight for real give your kung-fu a 50&#37; discount--at least..."

[Edmund]

Many of the more delicate moves in the system come close or are FMC(fine motor control) and/or require precise use of energy.


You haven't described anything that fits into the FMC definition.
What moves are you referring to?



The dump does adversely effect FMC but enhances GMC (gross motor control)--Fight or Flight response.. Over millions of years of evolution few folks were involved with TCMA..

So, regardless of what meant by Internal/External most TCMA have high road moves and low road moves.. Not all situations are going to cause a major dump but when it happens folks do tend to perform much more spastic than normal.. To get an idea try sparring after you do some wind sprints and your heart rate is over 150 BMP or so..

Sifu used to always say.."When you fight for real give your kung-fu a 50% discount--at least..."

You've just suggested a situation where you are tired beforehand. This is not quite the same.

[YungChun]

You haven't described anything that fits into the FMC definition.
What moves are you referring to?

Anything that isn't a gross motor movement, or a very simple non compound movements, energy/position changes, making small positional adjustments, loose power, folks may get tense, lots of these kinds of stuff in CMA and WCK..

To me it's not about move A working under the dump and move B not working, the dump when in force ends up making everything less precise and accurate.. Fighting gets simpler and less technically 'perfect'.

I'm sure most people have been in situations where they are stressing out and fumble trying to select the right key, we knock things over, stumble, trip or bump into things, etc when under the effects of this kind of stress, you just feel and move, even think/speak like a spaz. Ever notice sometimes when people, especially men, get really pizzed off they can’t find the right words to talk through things rationally.. This is all because the primal brain has taken over…

The effects are easily seen if you watch something like COPS.. Not only are all motor functions affected by the "dump" but even the ability to give what is called Alpha Commands--specific and critical commands given to suspects to take back control, is impaired..

The effect is not the same for everyone nor will the same things always trigger the same reaction in everyone.. But the problem is very real and serious problem that is addressed all over the place esp by LEO and easy to find information on if one wishes...


You've just suggested a situation where you are tired beforehand. This is not quite the same.
First off feeling “Tired and drained” is part of what some folks feel under the “dump”.
Second this is the kind of suggestion experts make for folks to *get an idea*.

If you want to experience the dump for yourself then either go to an adrenal stress class:
http://fastdefense.com/fast.html

See video: beginner level:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spSw5tBedUM

Or go for a walk in the wrong part of town at the wrong time and start shouting slurs at the locals. As they start to surround you see how you feel …:)

Haven’t you ever had the schit scared out of you or got really angry?

Haven’t you noticed the physical effects?

[Edmund]

Getting your keys out is not a WC movement. Or talking. :)

"Anything not a gross motor movement" is not really a good definition of a WC move involving fine motor skills.

Of course there are physical effects of adrenal dumps. You have less fine motor control. Reducing your ability to get your keys or talk properly for instance.

But that does not mean you are using fine motor skills to spar. You haven't described any WC moves that require *fine motor skills*. I can't think of any that do.

A gross motor skill is not necessarily a simple skill either. A full somersault is a gross motor skill. Doesn't mean you can perform one!



Being very tired reduces your ability to use your gross motor skills as well as your fine motor skills making it not a good example. All your muscles are exhausted making them not move as quickly.

[YungChun]

Getting your keys out is not a WC movement. Or talking. :)

"Anything not a gross motor movement" is not really a good definition of a WC move involving fine motor skills.

Alrighty then...

All those strange little circles, huen sao, jao sao, jip sao, TARGETING EYES, etc, that requires WING CHUN PRECISION... PRESICION TRAINED IN CHI SAO... WITH PRECISION RELAXED ENERGY AND POSITION (sound familiar?) :rolleyes:

Anything that isn't very simple will suffer when the dump happens.: Note the discussion on the other thread, how real fighting gets very simple most of the time.. When we go into the primal brain mode IT KNOWS what you CAN’T PULL OFF and will MAKE YOU GET SIMPLE….

This is not brain surgery and I am not interested in debating what is already well known and accepted as fact around the globe. The dump effects ANYONE who gets one and it will degrade all but the most simple techniques and even then awareness and reactions can and will get distorted....

I am not making this up...it's science, aka common knowledge.. It happens to people all the time even in simple conversation when people get high jacked.. Did you see the video, note how some of the people being stressed can't even walk or move smoothly anymore unlike the trainer who is very smooth, calm cool and collected--in movement..

Now for some reason you don't seem comfortable with the idea that an adrenal dump could impair your performance, FINE.. WORKS FOR ME.. :cool:

In light of this let's just say that you are immune to the effect and no matter what kind of adrenal dump you get all your skills will remain at 100&#37; all the time... k? :rolleyes:

[Hendrik]

watch it and ask ourself what is internal in Chinese Martial art paradigm?

http://mymedia.yam.com/m/1527522


or

it is not about internal or external but the question is --- is our art complete or incomplete under the Traditional Chinese Martial art paradigm?

[monji112000]

If you want to experience the dump for yourself then either go to an adrenal stress class:
http://fastdefense.com/fast.html

See video: beginner level:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spSw5tBedUM



lol that looks like fun. Maybe have the person actually attack them.. that probably would make it more real.

[uki]

The world is part of truth, like it or not. the world is relevant only to ones perception of it. in truth i understand the world is full of lies; these lies are instigated to create confusion, which in turn creates ignorance and finally fear.


To deny it is illusory. i deny the illusion of the world.


And is there only one truth?and many pieces to the puzzle of it.


and now back to your scheduled programme. yeah, that was really a brain-gas-leak attempt at a commercial.:p

[YungChun]

lol that looks like fun. Maybe have the person actually attack them.. that probably would make it more real.
The amount of agression the trainer uses is variable and dependant on the skill level of the trainee. In a couple of those clips the trainers were making contact to the face... While they start off slow they do offer more agressive levels and if you ask them nicely to beat you up I'm sure they'll ablige you.. ;)

[Edmund]

Alrighty then...

All those strange little circles, huen sao, jao sao, jip sao, TARGETING EYES, etc, that requires WING CHUN PRECISION... PRESICION TRAINED IN CHI SAO... WITH PRECISION RELAXED ENERGY AND POSITION (sound familiar?) :rolleyes:

Anything that isn't very simple will suffer when the dump happens.: Note the discussion on the other thread, how real fighting gets very simple most of the time.. When we go into the primal brain mode IT KNOWS what you CAN’T PULL OFF and will MAKE YOU GET SIMPLE….

This is not brain surgery and I am not interested in debating what is already well known and accepted as fact around the globe. The dump effects ANYONE who gets one and it will degrade all but the most simple techniques and even then awareness and reactions can and will get distorted....

I am not making this up...it's science, aka common knowledge.. It happens to people all the time even in simple conversation when people get high jacked.. Did you see the video, note how some of the people being stressed can't even walk or move smoothly anymore unlike the trainer who is very smooth, calm cool and collected--in movement..

Now for some reason you don't seem comfortable with the idea that an adrenal dump could impair your performance, FINE.. WORKS FOR ME.. :cool:

In light of this let's just say that you are immune to the effect and no matter what kind of adrenal dump you get all your skills will remain at 100&#37; all the time... k? :rolleyes:

When have I said you are immune to adrenal dump?! The effects are to reduce your fine motor skills and increase your gross motor movements.

This does not mean any WC moves are fine motor skills.

Poking the eyes? What the hell is up with poking guys in the eye? It's a stupid move! I definitely would classify that as requiring fine motor control. The target is small. Hence the usefulness of that move is limited in a stressful situation. I'll concede that it is a WC move though. I don't believe it is a particularly emphasized move in WC as I have said in the other thread.

The other moves you mentioned, I would not classify them as fine motor skills.

Seemed like on your video everyone did as they trained despite being beginners.
They used their adrenaline to help them focus, move, strike hard and fast. Hell yeah they can't talk properly. That's a fine motor skill. Their gross motor skills were fine.

A stressful situation is stressful because there's more happening. Their performance suffers because there are more variables and things are happening quickly. Not every variable/variation they are experienced with, so of course they don't do everything as well as someone who has practiced more.

BUT your adrenal responses help you. Your heart rate increases to get more blood moving around your body for the fight or flight. Your hearing is impaired and you get tunnel vision to reduce the amount of extraneous stimulus and speed up your reactions to what you are focusing on.

Maybe you should read your own link:

Just as someone can be traumatized and conditioned to freeze for years or decades after just one bad experience, we can engineer a positive experience in a very short time, which provides conditioning to control and even use the fear and adrenaline rush that inevitably occurs in any intense situation.

[YungChun]

Maybe you should read your own link:
Maybe you should go argue with them..

These guys teach very specific tools for their program, palms, elbows, knees, that’s IT..

If you showed them how WCK folks train very PRECISE use of POSITION and ENERGY, along with small delicate circle changes, etc, as is trained in ChiSao they will tell you that they think it’s NOT going to be useful for low road conditions..

If you are really interested go find a forum where these folks hang out and ask them all about WCK techniques and what THEY think..

I know how I respond and perform under stress and everyone knows how high levels of stress degrades most performance. At a high enough level of stress people can't perform any technique/motor function very well, but it depends on the person and the conditions.

Why is it in real fights we see very little of what is in the WCK book come out? How many techniques are there in the system? A lot more than a couple of strikes, grabs, etc..

Perhaps you could show us video of someone in a real fight doing all kinds of interesting WCK techniques/changes/shapes, that goes beyond the most basic use of WCK mechanics and striking..

What we normally see is that only the most simple techniques, like strikes, elbows, kness, etc. are used. Maybe you don't see WCK fighting as anything but these basics and that's fine too, but the reality is that what is seen is simple and it's simple because the stress/conditions limit what works when the primal bran is ON. Yes it can enhance these few tools but also can hamper more complex performance of technique or even any technique if the stress is high enough.. This is why some folks want to try to train to keep themselves at a minimum stress <useful> level, because high levels of stress <hurtful> does hamper performance--it's that simple..

Now if you have any more questions about this subject I would suggest asking one of their reps. I am not a representative of this system or an authority in ASR, nor do I wish to be for purposes of this "discussion"..

[k gledhill]

Advanced police shooting tactics incorporate breathing controls similar to sanchin in GoJu ..relaxed stances using Tai Chi as model. And adopting an isocolese triangle grip [ > --- ] due to the adrenalin dump, a strong arm will over power a 'support' or weaker position taking the aim off even at close quarters, due to gross motorskills kicking in.
VT shapes are this triangle in unison and can be incorporated into stress shooting without skipping a beat, I know because ive done it...advancing down the confines of an airliner seating area etc... shifting and punching out equally along a facing target line ...VT is great for stress . Aikidos 360 degree turning dropping stances afford a circle of fire while dropping for cover and maintianing the ability to face and fire even if the grips are compromised for lesser choices , weavers etc..
I had LOTS of time to experience stress from regular confrontations of fights or impending fights etc... simply natures way of getting ready to fight weve all felt the symptoms ...heart, breath, crapping our pants [ trying not to look like it :D] and then the nutsac retraction [ gotta do that JFK weekend..] all natural. Ive had fghts were Ive been jumping in the air like a trampoline exponent egging guys on to attack me [ what happened to my stance :D] I found that the system is perfect for realities of stress and delivering a straight line of force that uses the adrenal effects to its advantage ....you dont think 'fine skills' when you fight :D, you jut take in time / distance / and anatural selection of the most damage for what those variables present..you maneuver in simple lines to deliver a full on focused blast at the right time
SIMPLE END ...the rest is if its blocked , rare :D a lot of us harp on about this techniques that response ...in the face of an attack that has happened without weeks of preparation , you dont even know all the guys who your going to fight until it 'goes off' so adrenalin ? I welcome it ! , I expect it and look for it... when i feel the beginning actions of a nut sac retraction in an arguement Im just rolling with myself ...if it goes further I know Im taking the added bonus AND hitting them with it ..it isnt a negative at all...adrenalin junkies are that for a reason..me an adrenal user unh unh [ Denial !!! said in my best bruce the white shark voice ]

In real gunfights guys dont use the sights [ loss of fine motor skills] plus nature makes us focus on the attacker , tunnel vision , slow motion, [Ive felt it all] , so training becomes instinctive isocolese triangulation FIRE and training to simply MOVE OUT OF THE LINE OF INCOMING while maintaining your line of fire , never wavering to shoot the gun out of the hand [chase] but go for 2 body 1 head [ in case of body armour]

similarities of 'stress' can simulated by being given a course of fire . similar to practical pistol course . When you start you dont start by taking aim , you get told , no scramed at, to drop and do 20 squat thrusts to simultae increased hearts rates etc... and the added bonus of 10 guys screaming at you yelling at you trying to disorient you from the objective.....THEN you start shooting , reloading etc... even reloading is retrained to adopt gorilla grips on the gun not a 'target practice' 2 finger speed load....you have to do exercises that involve no prior knowedge of the following scenarios....

read stressfire by Mas Ayoub, simple stuff from experienced insructors in REAL stress...
they use a lot of martial arts for the physical mental side.

I found from hours of ch-sao i didnt panic if a gun jammed, when they happend on course people commented on this calmness [ maybe Im just a nut ]. I attributed it to simply not having the 'pressure' of constant attack on you at all times like facing a VT attack....even when they shot at me [ my feet] to simulate incoming fire I stayed focused [ I knew they wouldnt hit me ]...VT :D

[byond1]

LOL - Great post KG.

The funny thing is, I was shocked at myself, when I came to the realization, that I was an athletic adrenal junkie. That was when I came to realize that I was training my WCK like a "Extreme Sport"!!

What you mention about Gun combat, I see as being very valid (growing up in an environment where my father and all of his friends were Police officers), that many things you mention, he taught me as truth about Gun combat.

Have you seen the movie "Equilibrium"? With Christian Bale? After the World self destructs, we rebuild, and a synthetic drug is found that surpresses the emotions to help create a utopia. The guys called "clerics" are basicaly enforcers, for the status quote. They practise a form of MA called the "Gun Kata" allowing you to hit a maximum amount of opponents with maximum efficiency, while avoiding being hit or in direct firing line. What you said, invoked the image in my mind of the "Gun Kata" LOL

B

[k gledhill]

sounds good I'll check it out...:D

[Edmund]

Why would I argue with them when I agree with them!

If your WC moves require PRECISE DELICATE SMALL changes then you will not be able to perform them in a real situation because of adrenaline. These are BS techniques that guys that never fought think are going to work: poking someone in the eye. Little wrist circles.

This is the point of keeping WC simple and not having moves that rely on fine motor control.

The high road will not work.

YOU DONT NEED A LOT OF MOVES. And the fancy stuff doesn't work.
The WC system really doesn't have that many moves. The majority of hand techniques are contained within SLT.

Back on the adrenaline thing. The point of controlling your adrenaline is so that you can do all the things OUTSIDE of fight or flight that you need to defend yourself. You may need to talk your way out of a situation, or get your keys out, or get your gun out. You may have to look around for signs of danger or escape routes.

When it is time to fight or flight, then you *need* the adrenaline.



Maybe you should go argue with them..

These guys teach very specific tools for their program, palms, elbows, knees, that’s IT..

If you showed them how WCK folks train very PRECISE use of POSITION and ENERGY, along with small delicate circle changes, etc, as is trained in ChiSao they will tell you that they think it’s NOT going to be useful for low road conditions..

If you are really interested go find a forum where these folks hang out and ask them all about WCK techniques and what THEY think..

I know how I respond and perform under stress and everyone knows how high levels of stress degrades most performance. At a high enough level of stress people can't perform any technique/motor function very well, but it depends on the person and the conditions.

Why is it in real fights we see very little of what is in the WCK book come out? How many techniques are there in the system? A lot more than a couple of strikes, grabs, etc..

Perhaps you could show us video of someone in a real fight doing all kinds of interesting WCK techniques/changes/shapes, that goes beyond the most basic use of WCK mechanics and striking..

What we normally see is that only the most simple techniques, like strikes, elbows, kness, etc. are used. Maybe you don't see WCK fighting as anything but these basics and that's fine too, but the reality is that what is seen is simple and it's simple because the stress/conditions limit what works when the primal bran is ON. Yes it can enhance these few tools but also can hamper more complex performance of technique or even any technique if the stress is high enough.. This is why some folks want to try to train to keep themselves at a minimum stress <useful> level, because high levels of stress <hurtful> does hamper performance--it's that simple..

[uki]

Advanced police shooting tactics incorporate breathing controls similar to sanchin in GoJu ..relaxed stances using Tai Chi as model. what a disgrace. using tai chi like stances to improve ones idiotic ability to fire a gun. people who use guns are afraid and fearful.

[sanjuro_ronin]

what a disgrace. using tai chi like stances to improve ones idiotic ability to fire a gun. people who use guns are afraid and fearful.

Much like your lower intestine, your comment is full of it.

[TenTigers]

remember, Boyz n Gurlz, "Guns don't kill people, I kill people"

[YungChun]

When it is time to fight or flight, then you *need* the adrenaline.
It's not about on/off, that training is about keeping the adrenaline at useful level.. High levels of adrenaline impair performance.. Otherwise there would be no need to address the issue at all let alone a training program to deal with it.. :rolleyes:

[Hendrik]

SLT is definately holistic.

The path of cultivating/ attainment of SLT goes like this.


1, physical (movements)
2, breathing (oxigen/ blood flow)
3, Qi flow (energy flow)
4, Light illuminating (Awareness/Sensitivity)
5, Return to the Nature (comes accepts..... Using Silence to lead action, or non resistance state)


In the physical level one train to aware of the movements of every part of the physical body.

in the breathing level one train to aware of the breathing and how the deep breathing influence the physical and mind

in the Qi flow level one train to aware of energy flow through out the whole body

in the Light illuminating level one expand one's awareness, it is in this level of training one develop the ability of sensing or sensitivity to read and adapt for physical and energy flow.

Then,
One enter into the Return to the Natural state where only after one has a certain attainment and achievement in the previous 4 level.




Thus, there is no internal or external, all is one in the ancient chinese martial art paradigm. The trouble is we in this era seldom know what needs to be attained and what level one needs to train into or moving into. Not to mention we are so far away from the mastering of the art compare with those in the 1850.



I used to think there is only 4 sections and 4 level in the SLT I am training in, but now I am convince there is a 5th level --- the level of return to the Natural. The level of formless.




For those who think they have master the first two level in the SLT training, a test is asking them how did they manage or handle thier back as a whole.

For those who think they have master the 3rd level in the SLT training, a test is asking them how is the flow of the energy in thier thigh , hips and lower back.


For those who think they have master the 4th level in the SLT training, a test is asking them how is thier awareness of thier whole back down to thier sole.

Could they handle every inch of these area with flexibility and softness, or even raise the body temperature at these part of the body? That will tell alots on one's SLT training.



Just some sharing.

to be or not to be that is the answer.

Peace

[Xiao3 Meng4]

For those who think they have master the ... a test is asking them how...

"The Dao that can be told is not the original Dao. The Dao that can be named is not the original name." - Dao De Jing

Seeking intellectual answers to the physical aspects of Gong Fu through verbal questioning allows egos to flourish and the truth to be suppressed, both on the part of the questioner and the part of the person being questioned. In Gong Fu, One must question with and be questioned by the whole being.

Gong Fu is internal in the sense that it encourages Awareness of reality. Boddhidharma brought Martial Arts to Bu Tuo's temple as a part of Chan practice. Monks primarily trained and fought one another not because they had a problem with their brothers, or because they felt threatened and needed to learn to defend the temple; they fought because it was a way to practice Chan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6EZE_rmsQs&mode=related&search=).

[Hendrik]

"The Dao that can be told is not the original Dao. The Dao that can be named is not the original name." - Dao De Jing

Seeking intellectual answers to the physical aspects of Gong Fu through verbal questioning allows egos to flourish and the truth to be suppressed, both on the part of the questioner and the part of the person being questioned. In Gong Fu, One must question with and be questioned by the whole being.

Gong Fu is internal in the sense that it encourages Awareness of reality. Boddhidharma brought Martial Arts to Bu Tuo's temple as a part of Chan practice. Monks primarily trained and fought one another not because they had a problem with their brothers, or because they felt threatened and needed to learn to defend the temple; they fought because it was a way to practice Chan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6EZE_rmsQs&mode=related&search=).


You know, I would agree with you years ago.

However, now I DONT!

The reason

"The Dao that can be told is not the original Dao. The Dao that can be named is not the original name." - Dao De Jing


is said at 2000 years ago is because most 99.9&#37; of Chinese at that time doesnt have the philosohpy and science like us today.


Thus, communication is difficult similar to when one doesnt have enough vocaburaly to express oneself and or understood what others is specifically communicate.



Today we know Dao is a state of Energy. this type of State is a flow. This type of energy is adaptive.....


Now, I am not saying us the general logic could understood what lao tze said with our logical speculation which is based on material extreme.


What I am saying is we today have enough philosophical and scientific back ground to develop a further advance philosophy and science frame work that could lead us into knowing what is Lao Tze communicate.


As for the test, that is beyond the mind and intelecture understanding because it doesnt matter how or what one could claim one is understanding, could one actually activate or handle one's spine in a sophisticated way, that show's one's kung fu.


Thus, it is not about fuzzy or myterious talk where none will understand.


It is about Can one do it? if yes, then the one could do it knows and can use analogy or anytype of way to communicate what is "It".


And that is beyond internal or external. it is how NATURAL suppose to be, Call it prana, call it Qi, call it grace. call it what ever. call it ren du medirians, call it spine holistic handling.... call it what ever one like to. if one knows one knows.


As for the test, ask oneself, and dont have to argue, can oneself naturally and smoothly handle the hip join between the lower back and the thigh? if not that one doesnt even have a handling on the physical level or level one.

as an analogy, those type of in able to aware, manual, and handle the hip area is
similar to clamping or braking the two back wheel of the four wheel drive , but thinking one knows it all and capable to drive the four wheel drive for cross country match.

The reality is one doesnt even know how to get the four wheel drive to run properly or even to a neutral gear.


A YJKYM with a braking "two back wheels" is a kiss of death, and 90% or the people do it everyday and keep thinking it will create magic instead of the reality said it is actually cause one to be doom. but how many of us know it?


un aware of and
keep doing the SLT or YJKYM with braking the two back wheels , discuss and argue about internal and external....etc. what are we talking about with those discussion and arguement? Junk and nonsense.


But, sure, those who has no idea what it is like to have a free moving two back wheels will argue and asert they are right ---- with the usual reasoning --- "oh that is your intepretation, everyone is right; the sad thing are, they dont even aware of the existance of the back wheels.



Thus, IMHO, we all need to develop a new philosophy and science to clearly know these stuffs. using your sifu says my sifu says is not going to make it because not every sifu or sijo is clear on what is going on unless those who really got the experience. and even then, if there is no good communication tool, it is difficult to communicate.



peace

[couch]

You know, I would agree with you years ago.

However, now I DONT!

The reason

"The Dao that can be told is not the original Dao. The Dao that can be named is not the original name." - Dao De Jing


is said at 2000 years ago is because most 99.9% of Chinese at that time doesnt have the philosohpy and science like us today.


Thus, communication is difficult similar to when one doesnt have enough vocaburaly to express oneself and or understood what others is specifically communicate.


peace

The problem with the Western thinking is just that...science. Absolutes...no room for maybe's and possibilities. The Tao addresses these problems and opens the mind to options in the world.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Hendrik]

The problem with the Western thinking is just that...science. Absolutes...no room for maybe's and possibilities. The Tao addresses these problems and opens the mind to options in the world.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

Kenton,

I use to think like that too.

but after I met my sifu master Lee

http://www.naturalhealingcenter.com/creative/jixingli.htm

who is the pioneer in both the chinese qigong and energy handling scientific research, I have learn from him that this could be change. what we need is a new philosophy and science that is deeper and broader then what we have today. without get stuck in Chinese Culture, Tradition...etc. Let's face it alots of things we practice today in CMA or even Chinese Buddhism or Chan has nothing todo with the Law of the NATURAL or the teaching of the Buddha, but it is purely Chinese Culture and Tradition. Certainly practice those stuffs will make one understand more about Chinese but it is not going to improve one's physical or mental ability. and we most of the time just dont want to accept we are actually following a "religion" instead of cultivating the NAture or Dao. So, how much DAO is DAO even thought we keep qouting Lao Tze about Dao this and Dao that. but what we really practice is not DAO but Chinese tradition.

as for western thinking, if we have legitimate and clear direction, it is only a matter of time the western thinking will expand.

and

Dao has no nationality or race. it is only a matter of if this communication is make simple and we are willing to communicate with a new philosophical and scientific platfrom.



To be real honest, I am proposing to use Master Lee's multi-dimentional energy state philosophy and training process to explain and train the SLT/SNT. he is using Bio-logical computer, Bio-logical scaning system..... modern terms to explain how the ancient energy art is train and develop....

I guarentee it will produce very fast and good result. I have tried it so I know. one could by passed the Emei 12 zhuang and directly get into the fundamental level of the training without get stuck in Chinese culture/tradition or Emei culture/tradition ....etc. Go direct to where the money is.


This type of new philosophy cut away the old chinese tradition but present the essential. it also using today's fundamental component, Energy level, to set a clear and precise training path. For example, how to cultivate the sensitivity, there in Maser Lee's book, is explain and present the training process very well. Thus, the above 5 level of cultivation and attainment could be achieved without mumbo jumbo but clearly.

a clearlification I must make here is that I am not against learning chinese tradition or culture or following the chinese culture for I am a chinese decendent myself. However, there is a point we need to know what is the culture and tradition components which we respect and what is the Natural content we need to cultivate otherwise we have no clue of handling the nature or flow with the Dao.

master lee's english book is coming out in three months time, Kungfu magazine.com will carry it for those who is interested.




So, we dont put anyone in fault but build this new philosophy and science up. So we all will be able to communicate someday.


BTW, there is a problem in get stuck in the Chinese old clasical qouting. See, lots of us qout the old chinese tex. but honestly, how many really know what is what?



with the new philosophy we could take those who is training SLT to go throught the 5 level within 2 days. let them have a "taste" of what is going on and so they could start thier journey in training. have a sense of direction of what needs to be train and balance out thier training, that is what the chinese use to say, Sifu bring you into the door, and kung fu cultivation is your own effort.

without this type of "tasting" one could spend a whole life doing SLT and have no clue where one is going. It is just a waste of life. and at the end one end up doing Hunggar and CLF but thinking one is doing WCK. That is real sad, IMHO

[couch]

Kenton,

I use to think like that too.

but after I met my sifu master Lee

http://www.naturalhealingcenter.com/creative/jixingli.htm

who is the pioneer in both the chinese qigong and energy handling scientific research, I have learn from him that this could be change. what we need is a new philosophy and science that is deeper and broader then what we have today. without get stuck in Chinese Culture, Tradition...etc. Let's face it alots of things we practice today in CMA or even Chinese Buddhism or Chan has nothing todo with the Law of the NATURAL or the teaching of the Buddha, but it is purely Chinese Culture and Tradition. Certainly practice those stuffs will make one understand more about Chinese but it is not going to improve one's physical or mental ability. and we most of the time just dont want to accept we are actually following a "religion" instead of cultivating the NAture or Dao. So, how much DAO is DAO even thought we keep qouting Lao Tze about Dao this and Dao that. but what we really practice is not DAO but Chinese tradition.

and Dao has no nationality or race.



To be real honest, I am proposing to use Master Lee's multi-dimentional energy state philosophy and training process to explain and train the SLT/SNT. he is using Bio-logical computer, Bio-logical scaning system..... modern terms to explain how the ancient energy art is train and develop....

I guarentee it will produce very fast and good result. I have tried it so I know. one could by passed the Emei 12 zhuang and directly get into the fundamental level of the training without get stuck in Chinese culture/tradition or Emei culture/tradition ....etc. Go direct to where the money is.


This type of new philosophy cut away the old chinese tradition but present the essential. it also using today's fundamental component, Energy level, to set a clear and precise training path. For example, how to cultivate the sensitivity, there in Maser Lee's book, is explain and present the training process very well. Thus, the above 5 level of cultivation and attainment could be achieved without mumbo jumbo but clearly.

a clearlification I must make here is that I am not against learning chinese tradition or culture or following the chinese culture for I am a chinese decendent myself. However, there is a point we need to know what is the culture and tradition components which we respect and what is the Natural content we need to cultivate otherwise we have no clue of handling the nature or flow with the Dao.

His english book is coming out in three months time, Kungfu magazine.com will carry it for those who is interested.




So, we dont put anyone in fault but build this new philosophy and science up. So we all will be able to communicate someday.


BTW, there is a problem in get stuck in the Chinese old clasical qouting. See, lots of us qout the old chinese tex. but honestly, how many really know what is what?

I understand what you are saying about taking the culture out of it to maybe make it easier and faster.

The only thing is that why all the equipment? Just to explain to all the 'scientists' that it works? All the naysayers? I don't care about that as a Chinese Medicine Practitioner/Acupuncturist.

When the client walks in after western medicine has failed and I use a method based on weather pattern diagnosis...they walk out about to (maybe) walk, talk, swallow, etc. Some clients who are in touch with their more emotional and spiritual side benefit the greatest and find direction in their life. You can't measure that with a meter.

I'm not arguing per se with you, but just saying that all this high tech equipment is really nice and all, but it's not what people REALLY want.

They think that they want to be diagnosed with depression, obsessive compulsive disorder, dystonia, etc. But they don't. They want all their hopes and fears and body sensations validated. They want to be heard and loved.

Sorry for the rant. I'm usually pretty quiet about this stuff that bounces around in my brain.

Thanks for the discussion,
Kenton Sefcik

[Hendrik]

Kenton,


Human body has its own sensing system.

However, before those could be develop and use, we need the high tech equipment to aids us.


See, I dont use the EEG machine these days because my body is sensitive enough to tell me if I am getting into different states.


But for the beginer, IMHO, all aids is good aids to build up confident for thier cultivation and knows what they are doing.


in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g

we dont use high tech equipment but that is after we know how to get into the state we desire via alignment....



it is about technology once one get it it is there. Master Lee, my sifu even have done energy research that influencing the DNA. Yes, there are process to do that and it is not just talk or wishfull thinking but driving into the DNA depth real!

however these stuffs needs 2 hours a day's training for everyday to get somewhere. it is just not something one talk and chat will get there. for those who spend 2 hours a day result is obvious.

as for how to handle one's own Emotion or energy in motion in one's body, that is a 12hours or waking time daily job. and yes, the EEG could measure this and needed to because until one develop that sensing, one needs to rely on the aids to make sure one produce result properly. has anyone asked the question why one's silence meditation works and the other dont? silence meditation must work for all if we clearly know the dominant root key and know how to handle it. That, the hight tech equipment could help us to pin point and fine tune ourself or even synthesis our sifu's experience into us. it is about communication beyond language but directly via experience.



So, is SLT internal? do we know the direction? do we know the level of training? do we know the process of the training? Do we spend 2 hours aday develop it? if yes, WCK is beyond internal.

if not then SLT is not even external. for one needs to walk 20 mins a day as a minimun to just get walking to be effectively influence one's health.


what to argue? what to discuss? the fact itself is self sufficient to tell the truth.


Best Regards
Hendrik

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I had a huge long response to you, Hendrik, but a moment of sanity made me realize that it was a waste of time and energy, so I deleted it. It is my understanding that you are a psychic vampire intent on draining our Qi. :eek: :D ;)


You know, I would agree with you years ago.

However, now I DONT!


I'm not saying you should agree with me. Are you saying I should agree with you?


Human body has its own sensing system.

However, before those could be develop and use, we need the high tech equipment to aids us.

You're entitled to your views. I sincerely hope you allow others the same right.



I like quotes, so here are a few more:

"A moon in many ponds; in every pond, the same moon." -Some Japanese Guy

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" - Krishnamurti

"The world is too busy: No one will ever be enlightened again." -A disgruntled Daoist

"Less is more" - Ludwig Mies van der Rohe

Cheers
Christian

Please help raise awareness about this cause and causes like it (http://www.survival-international.org/campaigns/uncontactedtribes) (especially since they don't have access to high-tech Qi machines, forever dooming them to be ignorant of their true natures :rolleyes: )

[Hendrik]

I had a huge long response to you, Hendrik, but a moment of sanity made me realize that it was a waste of time and energy, so I deleted it. It is my understanding that you are a psychic vampire intent on draining our Qi. :eek: :D ;)



I'm not saying you should agree with me. Are you saying I should agree with you?



You're entitled to your views. I sincerely hope you allow others the same right.



I like quotes, so here are a few more:

"A moon in many ponds; in every pond, the same moon." -Some Japanese Guy

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" - Krishnamurti

"The world is too busy: No one will ever be enlightened again." -A disgruntled Daoist

"Less is more" - Ludwig Mies van der Rohe

Cheers
Christian

Please help raise awareness about this cause and causes like it (http://www.survival-international.org/campaigns/uncontactedtribes) (especially since they don't have access to high-tech Qi machines, forever dooming them to be ignorant of their true natures :rolleyes: )



hahaha,


I never force others to believe what I share. Read my post, I present what I know. that's it. it is upto others to filter what they would like to believe.




Read your posts, why so offensive and fill with fear and turn personal?


Sure, you are entitle to believe your view.
if you got process to evoke the Qi share with us here how to evoke it? I am sure lots of people here would love to test your technology out to evoke the Qi. how to do it? please share.



As for using the equipment to train and monitor one's qi and energy cultivation. the Top Qigong practioners in China, Japan, and USA are so confident and open to all type of testing with high tech equipments. what to complain if the top people dont complain?


peace

[couch]

As for using the equipment to train and monitor one's qi and energy cultivation. the Top Qigong practioners in China, Japan, and USA are so confident and open to all type of testing with high tech equipments. what to complain if the top people dont complain?


peace

Because we need to challenge the 'absolute' western mindframe.

You can't quantify healing and that is what makes what I do a beautiful thing.

No machine will ever replace the human experience. Look at the radial pulse reading machines that Korea developed? Garbage as far as I am concerned. I also feel the same way about those Acupuncture point locators that find 'elevated' energies. They (personal experience) don't work.

Nothing replaces the human touch.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Someone needs to get held down and pink-bellied. :mad:



Read your posts, why so offensive and fill with fear and turn personal?

Fear is not the issue. I do get annoyed by your condescension and competitive, aggressive nature regarding your viewpoint vs. the viewpoint of others though. You yourself engage in offensive behaviour, attacking and belittling the personal viewpoints of others. If you're offended by what it is that I'm writing, then so be it. Put me on ignore.

I recently made some big lifestyle changes in my life. If I went around telling people who didn't make the same changes "you know, I used to live like you, but now I don't," that would be personal, condescending, judgmental, and implying that I live a better life than they do. When you come on here, laugh, and express that same mentality regarding people's worldviews, it's offensive and annoys me. On a better day, I would just shrug it off as the expression of your wounded psyche, but not today.

Likewise, you say that you do not force others to believe what you're saying, yet through your aggressive, competitive posting, you make every attempt to reduce the viewpoints of others to nothing more than childish fantasy, claiming that your view is superior. Then you go on to say "please, we are all interested in what you have to say. Please share." It seems to me you're just looking for another opportunity to play your game at the expense of someone else's truths. Again, I could choose not to respond, hence giving you nothing to play with, but not today.

When someone calls you on your behaviour, you take the opportunity to cry foul, and claim that person is being offensive and personal. Ever heard of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection) before?

In fact, the more I think about it, the more TROLL-like your behaviour is... although, admittedly, your persona is one of a sophisticated troll in a housecoat and slippers: wearing spectacles, smoking a pipe and sitting in a lay-Z-boy. Still a troll, though.

This is why I claim that responding to you in any intimate way is a waste of time and energy.

I do not claim to be egoless, or buddha-like. I have challenges in my life, as do many other people, I'm sure. In fact, this week has been particularly stressful. If it's made me overly sensitive and my posts overly aggressive, rest assured that things move in cycles, and my responses will change accordingly. However I stand by my claim that you are a troll.



Sure, you are entitle to believe your view.
if you got process to evoke the Qi share with us here how to evoke it? I am sure lots of people here would love to test your technology out to evoke the Qi. how to do it? please share.


As I've stated before, Qi is qualitative, not quantitative. We've had this discussion before, Hendrik. If you really MUST know what some of my views are, reread the threads where we discussed it before. In brief, Gong Fu requires wholistic transmission. You yourself keep harping on the fact that it's impossible to understand unless you experience it.

Anyone that wants to visit me is entitled to do so, and I'll GLADLY spend as much time as I can sharing and trying out what you have to share. I'm just a pm away from making those kinds of arrangements, bearing in mind that I will be in transition for the next few weeks. As of November, there will be more opportunities.

Generally, I try to adopt the view that everyone leads a harder life than mine, and should therefore be treated gently. Hendrik, I will admit that it's really hard to interact with you from that perspective. You give me so many reasons to believe you live a sheltered, cushy, prince-like life. Of course, my beliefs are irrelevant. I'm sure you've had hardships, just as we all have. If you want to respond to me with aggression, condescension, and the same general tone that I've layed out here, you are free to do so, and I won't hold it against you. I know this isn't my nicest or best post ever, trust me on that. I don't like these kinds of posts, but I'm just really tired of the stupid, crappy, repetitive and stagnant dialogues that seem to pile up in a smelly heap when you post.

...I guess that's a clear mark of a troll.

Regarding trolls, I think I'll take my lesson from seagulls. Respect their right to exist, but don't feed them, or else you spend your time shouting and shooing them away.

Bah. Into the pile this one goes.

[Hendrik]

Someone needs to get held down and pink-bellied. :mad:



Fear is not the issue. I do get annoyed by your condescension and competitive, aggressive nature regarding your viewpoint vs. the viewpoint of others though. You yourself engage in offensive behaviour, attacking and belittling the personal viewpoints of others. If you're offended by what it is that I'm writing, then so be it. Put me on ignore.

I recently made some big lifestyle changes in my life. If I went around telling people who didn't make the same changes "you know, I used to live like you, but now I don't," that would be personal, condescending, judgmental, and implying that I live a better life than they do. When you come on here, laugh, and express that same mentality regarding people's worldviews, it's offensive and annoys me. On a better day, I would just shrug it off as the expression of your wounded psyche, but not today.

Likewise, you say that you do not force others to believe what you're saying, yet through your aggressive, competitive posting, you make every attempt to reduce the viewpoints of others to nothing more than childish fantasy, claiming that your view is superior. Then you go on to say "please, we are all interested in what you have to say. Please share." It seems to me you're just looking for another opportunity to play your game at the expense of someone else's truths. Again, I could choose not to respond, hence giving you nothing to play with, but not today.

When someone calls you on your behaviour, you take the opportunity to cry foul, and claim that person is being offensive and personal. Ever heard of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection) before?

In fact, the more I think about it, the more TROLL-like your behaviour is... although, admittedly, your persona is one of a sophisticated troll in a housecoat and slippers: wearing spectacles, smoking a pipe and sitting in a lay-Z-boy. Still a troll, though.

This is why I claim that responding to you in any intimate way is a waste of time and energy.

I do not claim to be egoless, or buddha-like. I have challenges in my life, as do many other people, I'm sure. In fact, this week has been particularly stressful. If it's made me overly sensitive and my posts overly aggressive, rest assured that things move in cycles, and my responses will change accordingly. However I stand by my claim that you are a troll.



As I've stated before, Qi is qualitative, not quantitative. We've had this discussion before, Hendrik. If you really MUST know what some of my views are, reread the threads where we discussed it before. In brief, Gong Fu requires wholistic transmission. You yourself keep harping on the fact that it's impossible to understand unless you experience it.

Anyone that wants to visit me is entitled to do so, and I'll GLADLY spend as much time as I can sharing and trying out what you have to share. I'm just a pm away from making those kinds of arrangements, bearing in mind that I will be in transition for the next few weeks. As of November, there will be more opportunities.

Generally, I try to adopt the view that everyone leads a harder life than mine, and should therefore be treated gently. Hendrik, I will admit that it's really hard to interact with you from that perspective. You give me so many reasons to believe you live a sheltered, cushy, prince-like life. Of course, my beliefs are irrelevant. I'm sure you've had hardships, just as we all have. If you want to respond to me with aggression, condescension, and the same general tone that I've layed out here, you are free to do so, and I won't hold it against you. I know this isn't my nicest or best post ever, trust me on that. I don't like these kinds of posts, but I'm just really tired of the stupid, crappy, repetitive and stagnant dialogues that seem to pile up in a smelly heap when you post.

...I guess that's a clear mark of a troll.

Regarding trolls, I think I'll take my lesson from seagulls. Respect their right to exist, but don't feed them, or else you spend your time shouting and shooing them away.

Bah. Into the pile this one goes.



Thank you for your comment.

May be I am as you said.
May be I am not.
May be something I post which has nothing to do with anything triggle your hot bottom because you are wanting approval and agreement subsconciously
May be I am just a mirror and what you feel and see is yourself?

See, it is a usual case that if we are not thinking on certain things or certain bias... we dont accuse others on doing it.


perhaps it is not me pushing but your resistance to the world create such big energy to upset you?


Read your post and read mine, see what is in our subsconcious? your shen is not in tranquil your mind is not in silence that is forsure without needed any high tech equipments to measure your EEG.



See, In WCK we said comes accept goes let it back. we dont resist so we dont experience those big push or power struggle. I dont know what is your art. but reading your post certainly shows me you are not a WCner in practice. nothing good or bad but different.

if you are not a WCner, then why here discussing about WC is internal or external?

perhap my not agree with you triggle your wanting approval hot botton?

Hey, it is a technical discussion. I have no interest in approve or dis approve of you. Bring up technical topic and discuss, otherwise it is wasting others bandwidth.

Peace

[mantis108]

Once upon a time, a couple went to Captain Orgazmo for their intimacy issues. So the Captain said "Ah, you have never experienced orgazism althogether, that's why you have so many problems!" Then he presented the couple with two $500 ********s. The couple used them individually and experienced what they believed is orgazism. So they thanked the Captain for giving them a life changing experience. In order to make sure they will get what the Captain calls the "state" everytime, they bought the ********s for $1000.00. After they went home, they tried to have sex with each other. But they couldn't have orgazism state. So they go for the ********s again individually before sex with each other believing that they can have "orgazism" together thus gaining their intimacy with each other. But they never have the intimacy that they set out to get going to the Captain. Furthermore, they eventually discovered that they can get a $50.00 electronic massager to do the same job for much less money. Yet they still have not solved their issues because they "know" and trust the machines to deliver the "state" better then their human partner.

So my friends please consider the Captain Orgazmo's parable before you accept the Chewbacca defense on orgazism. ;) :D

Have a nice one.

Mantis108

[Hendrik]

Great story and there are some truth in it.


Best Regards
Hendrik

[Xiao3 Meng4]

your shen is not in tranquil...that is forsure without needed any high tech equipments to measure your EEG

As I stated in my last post, you are entitled to treat me the same way that I treated you. I know I had this Karma comin'.



I dont know what is your art. but reading your post certainly shows me you are not a WCner in practice.

I had this comin' too. According to you, though, everyone who practices differently than you (or refuses to discuss their methods with you) and without expensive high-tech machines isn't doing Wing Chun - a view which you are entitled to.



perhap my not agree with you triggle your wanting approval hot botton?


It's not your lack of agreeing with me; it's your method of doing so. It's not my "wanting approval" hot button.. It's my "respect the views and opinions of others" hot button. It would be one thing to disagree objectively, and have rational explanations as to why. It's quite another to laugh, claim you used to think like someone, but "now you know better," and flat out tell people they are wrong because they don't agree with YOU. That's pretty egotistical in my book. I'm sure I've done it in the past, but I work at avoiding that kind of behaviour because I know how upsetting it can be.



Hey, it is a technical discussion. I have no interest in approve or dis approve of you. Bring up technical topic and discuss, otherwise it is wasting others bandwidth.

You counter almost every technical topic anyone brings up with "haha....that's not how it is...You must do what I do and buy this device I'm constantly talking about or else you will suck at what you do." I'm paraphrasing, Hendrik, yet my point is that nearly every one of your posts can be boiled down to the above sentence, which is why I (and others, most likely) are so reluctant to discuss anything with you. Again, it seems like troll behaviour when you ask for details but reply with nearly exactly the same thing over and over.

Finally, let me make my position perfectly clear: It is my mandate to help people attain SELF-RELIANCE - that is, to be INDEPENDENT OF COMMERCIAL ITEMS AND COMPLEX TECHNOLOGIES (technologies that cannot be simply constructed by oneself.) To that effect, I am OPPOSED TO THE USE OF COMMERCIAL OR COMPLEX TECHNOLOGY IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF SELF-RELIANCE. It is my experience that Qi Gong plays a pivotal role in the development of self-reliance, no matter what the delivery system - be it from Wing Chun, Tai Ji, Yoga, American Shamanism, or wherever - as long as the system is nature based and free of commercial and complex technologies. All that is required is a minimum of skill, a competent teacher, and dedicated training.

You, on the other hand, have made it clear in most of your posts that you adopt a relatively opposite view. Perhaps it is because you approach this whole issue from a scholarly perspective as opposed to a practitioner's perspective: I don't know for sure. Quite simply, though, we will never agree on certain aspects.

I've made my position clear, you've made yours clear, so now there's nothing left to discuss regarding this point. Let's simply agree to disagree, shall we? And if that makes us practice different arts, then that's fine, too. After all, that's one of the beauties of art: its variety.

Wishing everybody well in their studies and practices
Christian

P.S. Loved the Orgazism story. :D

[SimonM]

i deny the illusion of the world.


And yet you remain so strongly attached to your own rage.

[kwaichancan't]

Disapointing. i came onto this forum to learn. i had hoped that a gung fu discussion forum would have a touch more of the real spirit of arts.

In response to the original, Yip Chun described feeling internal energy when he was doing sil lim tao. I did chen t'ai chi before I did wing chun, and that influences my W.C. because it's hard wired in now. There's no such thing as a purely internal or purely external system, and it certainly couldn't hurt to develop your practice by adding internal exercises to your routine. There'll be stuff from your Yang you could do. Internal work will onhly enhance your Wing Chun, and it doesn't need to interfere with proper form or compromise the principles of the system by changing stances and suchlike.

[couch]

Disapointing. i came onto this forum to learn. i had hoped that a gung fu discussion forum would have a touch more of the real spirit of arts.

Ah. Your first mistake. Mine too. LOL

[kung fu fighter]

Fist from the heart means internal, using YI or spirit!

[Lee Chiang Po]

Speaking of the internal side. I think that it all comes down to Chi. Most don't know what it is and it has got to be the most difficult thing to explain to anyone that has never felt it. I feel that it can not really be explained to one that does not know what it is. It develops as your skills develop. No matter what it is that you are doing. Anything physical I would guess. The more you do something, the better that you are going to be able to do it. Eventually this skill gets to the point that you can feel the inner energies that flow as you perform these physical moves.
I can give a simple example. I was a printer as a day job for about 35 years before retiring. In my early years of printing, I was running a small letter press. When I place or remove the platten from the press I would use the heel of my right hand to lift the latch. I would just place my fingers on the lever and then quickly palm it. Everyone else used a long metal pin wrench to lever it open. I could just palm it and it would move enough to release the latch. I got so good with this and was able to do it many times in a day. The lever was loaded with a very strong spring, and there was a stop on the back so that the lever would not go up too high. Eventually I was driving it against the stop so hard that I was shearing the lever off. It was steel. 1 inch wide, 3/8 inch thick, and probably about 6 inches long. It would fly off up into the ceiling. I broke many of them. Eventually I would file off the stop so that it would not impact. The same occured a few years before that. I started out knocking the trim off boxes as they were die cut. I used a tack hammer for this and eventually had to go to a steel handle because the hickory handles would not last a shift. This breaking power was not necessarily trained, but it did occur because of repetitive skill and Chi. I can strike very hard with either hand.
I think internal WC might actually exist, but I think it is something that develops on it's own as you achieve higher skill. Once you realize it and feel it, you can then learn to control it.
On the subject of adrenaline. I have known an individual that would go into a complete rage on just thinking about something. It didn't have to happen either. He only had to imagine it. He was on parole for killing some one because of it. And eventually he had to go back because he simply could not control his temper. It was learned that his adrenaline dump was massive and occured at the drop of a hat. It only required medication to control. This is something that varies from individual to individual. I feel fear any time I realize I am going to have to fight. Fighting is a serious matter. No referee, no judge, no one to break you up. No tap outs, no point systems. People can get injured or even killed when actually fighting. The most skilled and ferocious fighter can get laid out by a lucky punch. Knowing that you have skills to survive will possibly help you to maintain cool, but it would be difficult to avoid the adrenaline dump. You simply have to develop the skills of concentration. This is how you overcome fear and the adrenaline dump.

[Hendrik]

Speaking of the internal side. I think that it all comes down to Chi. ----

Chi is only a part of it.



Most don't know what it is and it has got to be the most difficult thing to explain to anyone that has never felt it. ------


how can one explain to those who have never eat orange the taste of orange?




I feel that it can not really be explained to one that does not know what it is. ----


It cannot be explain. however it can be cultivate and experience. similar to one cannot explain what orange taste like, however if one really knows orange than one can get one to the others. and it is up to the others to open his/her mouth to taste it. Certainly, some might choose not to open thier mouth but keeping speculate via thier imagination.




It develops as your skills develop. ------


Nope, it is not by default. There are skill or Kung that develop Qi/Chi there are skill that doesnt do anything to qi . In fact Qi is decreasing directly propotional to aging and decreasing for ordinary people who dont know how to cultivate it.




No matter what it is that you are doing. Anything physical I would guess. -----

Guessing work doesnt applied to Qi. Guess = Dont know.




The more you do something, the better that you are going to be able to do it.
Eventually this skill gets to the point that you can feel the inner energies that flow as you perform these physical moves. -----


will cook sand for 1000 years can be come rice?




I can give a simple example. I was a printer as a day job for about 35 years before retiring. In my early years of printing, I was running a small letter press. When I place or remove the platten from the press I would use the heel of my right hand to lift the latch. I would just place my fingers on the lever and then quickly palm it. Everyone else used a long metal pin wrench to lever it open. I could just palm it and it would move enough to release the latch. I got so good with this and was able to do it many times in a day. The lever was loaded with a very strong spring, and there was a stop on the back so that the lever would not go up too high. Eventually I was driving it against the stop so hard that I was shearing the lever off. It was steel. 1 inch wide, 3/8 inch thick, and probably about 6 inches long. It would fly off up into the ceiling. I broke many of them. Eventually I would file off the stop so that it would not impact. The same occured a few years before that. I started out knocking the trim off boxes as they were die cut. I used a tack hammer for this and eventually had to go to a steel handle because the hickory handles would not last a shift.

This breaking power was not necessarily trained, but it did occur because of repetitive skill and Chi. I can strike very hard with either hand. -----


Qi or Chi forsure is not a synoname of Unknown or dont know.
It is Qi or it is something else? or a combination of a certain things?





I think internal WC might actually exist, but I think it is something that develops on it's own as you achieve higher skill. Once you realize it and feel it, you can then learn to control it. --------


Think doesnt do a thing on the taste of orange if one have never taste one.





On the subject of adrenaline. I have known an individual that would go into a complete rage on just thinking about something. It didn't have to happen either. He only had to imagine it. He was on parole for killing some one because of it. And eventually he had to go back because he simply could not control his temper. It was learned that his adrenaline dump was massive and occured at the drop of a hat. It only required medication to control. This is something that varies from individual to individual. I feel fear any time I realize I am going to have to fight. Fighting is a serious matter. No referee, no judge, no one to break you up. No tap outs, no point systems. People can get injured or even killed when actually fighting. The most skilled and ferocious fighter can get laid out by a lucky punch. Knowing that you have skills to survive will possibly help you to maintain cool, but it would be difficult to avoid the adrenaline dump. You simply have to develop the skills of concentration. This is how you overcome fear and the adrenaline dump. -----


the wingchun kuen kuit says, " using silence to direct action" Silence is internal. Until one has silence and master it, one has no handling in adrenaline. without be able to handle adrenaline, one doesnt have handle on Qi.


Internal is not inside the body. Internal open up another paradigm or open up layers and layers of reality which one usually in general doesnt aware.

Using the common view to imagine what is that paradigm or those layers and layers are just a waste of life.


Thus, I have heard,

Wing Chun kuen kuit says, " comes accept, Goes also accepts and let them leave, allow things to be free and be free, using the silence to direct action."

These are the solid description of Internal. Those who knows sees the expansion of paradigm and the surface of layers and layers. Shen, Qi, Yee, Jing.... all is there.




logical speculation thinking or Day dreaming cant get one to know the taste or an orange.

get a real orange, will to open the mouth, and put into the mouth and taste it. That doesnt need a thought at all.

But how many waste thier life arguing orange exist or non exist without even know, it just takes a second to open the mouth and taste the orange and one knows what it is effortlessly?



So long.

[WingChunWay]

Speaking of the internal side. I think that it all comes down to Chi. ----

Chi is only a part of it.



Most don't know what it is and it has got to be the most difficult thing to explain to anyone that has never felt it. ------


how can one explain to those who have never eat orange the taste of orange?


Hi Guys
How about a chi demo? It would be great to see these oranges. Youtube it!
I wish I could lay claim to such feats, but a still mind with good old bio mechanics will have to do me.
Good to see you posting Hendrik! Havent been online line much to enjoy your poetry. I put some vids up, more like apples than oranges though. LOL
Happy training,
Mark Rasmus

[Xiao3 Meng4]

While not specifically related to Wing Chun, this is an easy, enjoyable and informative read on the subject of Qi.

http://www.redwingbooks.com/products/books/BriHisQi.cfm

CSP

[couch]

While not specifically related to Wing Chun, this is an easy, enjoyable and informative read on the subject of Qi.

http://www.redwingbooks.com/products/books/BriHisQi.cfm

CSP

Thank you! I haven't been exposed to this book. Being an acupunk I think it might be a future purchase!

All the best,
K

[Hendrik]

Until one can generate Zhen Qi at will. One has no clue on what is Qi. even after one could generate Zhen Qi at will. That is just a begining.

As for internal, those are on open up a different paradigm.


It is a different world....


That book is good. But it is still about Talking qi --- trying to explain how orange taste like with the author might not have not experience the orange --- not Qi.


why wasting time read about it or mimic about it. find a sifu, go baisi, and learn the real thing. after a year, everything will be different.

[Hendrik]

Hi Guys
How about a chi demo? It would be great to see these oranges. Youtube it!
I wish I could lay claim to such feats, but a still mind with good old bio mechanics will have to do me.
Good to see you posting Hendrik! Havent been online line much to enjoy your poetry. I put some vids up, more like apples than oranges though. LOL
Happy training,
Mark Rasmus


Could you please explain what is Buddhist Wing Chun means?

Chi demo? no demo, if you know the process, you will be able to generate it at your will. One needs to go to baisi to a sifu to learn those. it is something people cultivate weeks and months and years. Cant do it with a seminal or reading books.

There is no contradiction between bio machanics and qi, instead Qi will extend what one could do with bio machanics or bring bio machenics to a higher/deeper level. and there is no end to it.

[WingChunWay]

Could you please explain what is Buddhist Wing Chun means?

Hi Hendrik,
I teach Buddhism in classes, so I refer to as Buddhist Wing Chun.




Chi demo? no demo, if you know the process, you will be able to generate it at your will. One needs to go to baisi to a sifu to learn those. it is something people cultivate weeks and months and years. Cant do it with a seminal or reading books.

No Demo? Why not? Dont you know how to issue force? Well of course you do, you speak in a condescending way to people like you are way up there. But refuse to simply show a few seconds of footage of you issuing? Hmm makes you wonder.


There is no contradiction between bio machanics and qi, instead Qi will extend what one could do with bio machanics or bring bio machenics to a higher/deeper level. and there is no end to it.

Fusing the mind into the body with deep relaxation to power the body mechanics will generate allot of the so called chi phenomena. So why confuse people with talking about chi? Why don't you define the development process, rather than talking about oranges. If it exists and it is real, there must be a method of developing it. Define the method.
Just a few thoughts and still enjoying your poetry.
Mark

[Katsu Jin Ken]

IMO qi is another word for bloodflow & focus

[Lee Chiang Po]

Kendrik, you really do not make good sense at times. I am attempting to avoid being forceful in my opinions as it makes others think I am being arrogant or something, but I have to say here that I do not believe you know what you are talking about. First of all, Qi, or Chi, is not some invisible force that one develops like in a star wars movie. Qi is simply an electrical flow that follows your blood flow. It works quite well with accupuncture. It rediates out from your belly button. That is where your life began. Dangling from the end of an umbilical cord. You can disrupt that flow and it will disrupt everything from that point on to the point to where it stops, which is the very tips of your digits. It can not be thrown or cast from your body like some forcefield. It flows along perfectly aligned structure making it stronger. That is the best that I can explain it. I am not that good with discriptions. It is easy for you to sit and exude yourself as some sort of master of Qi force, but you have not made a single attempt at describing it except to talk about oranges. Maybe you have, but like I said, you are not making sense.
Speaking of oranges, I put gasoline in my old truck now and then. I could not tell you exactly what is in that gasoline, but I can tell you exactly what it does. This is the same thing with Chi. I can not fully explain to anyone what it is that I feel when I feel it, but I can explain what it does for me. I might be right or I might be wrong, as I don't think anyone really knows, but it is my own personal opinion that Chi is nothing more than biomechanics approaching perfection. I have been a chunner for half a century, and although I have not trained it in a few years now, I did so regularly for most of that time. I think I might have developed at least some biomechanical skills in that time. And maybe a little Chi too.

Chiang

[WingChunWay]

IMO qi is another word for bloodflow & focus


There seems to be allot of chi kung teachers who translate the words "chi kung" as "energy work". So adding an extra description next to the word "Chi" to describe what type of energy it is, might be appropriate. Hendrik is good with translating so he might have more definitions of it.
I first studied under a western metaphysics teacher who only used English terms.
For example he used the terms "vital energy" to describe the bio energy of the body. Each type of energy had a descriptive word with it and a process of developing insight into it, then a process of developing mastery over it if appropriate. Everything had a set of laws which defined it. Being a westerner trying to tap into chinese thinking is not easy for me, so I just stick with the western terms and principles which mostly come from india anyway. There is only one dhamma (universal laws) so no matter what language we use, they are pointing at the same thing.
I found it best to present the techniques to discern what vital energy is, rather than talk about vital energy. Talking about it creates false views. Working with proven methods brings about direct insight into the term. There are many methods to experience it.
Here is one method I received through the Shingon Buddhist school.

Breath meditation

Sit quietly, still the mind.
Bring your awareness to your breathing.
Breathe into the lower diaphragm sinking the mind to your COG.
Breathe out directing a current of relaxation down to the tailbone up the spine, over the top of the head, through the tip of your tongue and out of your mouth.
Repeat until you become comfortable with it.
Then add counting.
Breath into the COG behind the navel in the middle of your body.
Breath out in the same manner as before, but begin pronouncing the number 1
Breath in and finish pronouncing the number 1 aloud.
Repeat upto 10 then start again. This will regulate the in and out breath correctly
After a few minutes, do the counting silently.
By the end of the exercise, the COG becomes warm, the mind and energy of the body is centered.

I believe variations of this exercise have been taught in Japan for about 1200 years through the Shingon school. So it has been thoroughly tested. It is the first basic meditation training in that school.

Law of resonance in regards to learning

Imagine the frequency of your body to act as a tuning fork. If you are around other tuning forks of the same frequency that are being activated, your tuning fork will begin to vibrate due to their energy output if on the same frequency.
So practicing this in a group allows you to first tune the frequency in while others are activating it for you. Before long you have received the transmission well enough to remember it and repeat it on your own. Taking advantage of this speeds up development and keeps you on track. Hence the need for a teacher.

Just a few thoughts
Mark

[kung fu fighter]

Kendrik, you really do not make good sense at times. I am attempting to avoid being forceful in my opinions as it makes others think I am being arrogant or something, but I have to say here that I do not believe you know what you are talking about. First of all, Qi, or Chi, is not some invisible force that one develops like in a star wars movie. Qi is simply an electrical flow that follows your blood flow. It works quite well with accupuncture. It rediates out from your belly button. That is where your life began. Dangling from the end of an umbilical cord. You can disrupt that flow and it will disrupt everything from that point on to the point to where it stops, which is the very tips of your digits. It can not be thrown or cast from your body like some forcefield. It flows along perfectly aligned structure making it stronger. That is the best that I can explain it. I am not that good with discriptions. It is easy for you to sit and exude yourself as some sort of master of Qi force, but you have not made a single attempt at describing it except to talk about oranges. Maybe you have, but like I said, you are not making sense.
Speaking of oranges, I put gasoline in my old truck now and then. I could not tell you exactly what is in that gasoline, but I can tell you exactly what it does. This is the same thing with Chi. I can not fully explain to anyone what it is that I feel when I feel it, but I can explain what it does for me. I might be right or I might be wrong, as I don't think anyone really knows, but it is my own personal opinion that Chi is nothing more than biomechanics approaching perfection. I have been a chunner for half a century, and although I have not trained it in a few years now, I did so regularly for most of that time. I think I might have developed at least some biomechanical skills in that time. And maybe a little Chi too.

Chiang

I couldn't have said it any better! except directing it to Hendrik instead.

[KPM]

Hendrik wrote:
There is no contradiction between bio machanics and qi, instead Qi will extend what one could do with bio machanics or bring bio machenics to a higher/deeper level. and there is no end to it.

---Ah! Glad to see you actually admitting that, because you sure didn't admit that in the past! On more than thread talking about biomechanics you jumped in to say that we didn't know what we were talking about and that it was all about Qi development. I'm happy to see you finally refining your viewpoint a bit. :D

Mark wrote:
why confuse people with talking about chi? Why don't you define the development process, rather than talking about oranges. If it exists and it is real, there must be a method of developing it.

---I've followed Hendrik's posts for several years now, and that's his standard approach. Don't expect him to provide any real guidance or information or you will be disppointed! He will continue to talk in riddles and innuendos and tell you to go Bai Shi with someone who knows. He seldom comes here to discuss things in an actual give and take exchange. Years back he used to post about some of his historical research, and that was good. But ask him about how he does his own Wing Chun or what it consists of and you will be disappointed.

Lee wrote:
Kendrik, you really do not make good sense at times. I am attempting to avoid being forceful in my opinions as it makes others think I am being arrogant or something, but I have to say here that I do not believe you know what you are talking about.

---I feel your frustration Lee, because I have been there many times with Hendrik myself! But I think that Hendrik does have some real knowledge. He is just unwilling to share it.

---Don't get me wrong. I'm not posting here to put down Hendrik. I'm just trying to get you guys to avoid the frustration I've known many times when trying to discuss anything with Hendrik. It won't go anywhere! Don't worry about Hendrik or what he has to say because he won't share anything real. He'll tell you that you are on the wrong path and don't know what you are talking about, then when you ask him to explain or elaborate he'll just tell you to go "Bai Shi." So ignore him and have your own discussion.

[Hendrik]

I teach Buddhism in classes, so I refer to as Buddhist Wing Chun.---

Ok. Thanks. But Buddhism is oppose fighting or even defending. When things are non dual. There is no fighting or defending.

Remember as it said " comes accept, goes accept and let it goes back...." Isnt that non dual? Get it?




No Demo? Why not? Dont you know how to issue force? Well of course you do, ----


You couldnt see what people do with issue force and lots of those are show business.

from the above non dual core concept there is no preparation but naturally flow... Thus, that is the concept we all missed and keep thinking we have to do this or that.

So, the key to internal is Non-Dual, Accept, Let Go let God. and if one is there why even bring up fighting or defending. Just let it be. There one is free. Win or lost is ok.




you speak in a condescending way to people like you are way up there. But refuse to simply show a few seconds of footage of you issuing? Hmm makes you wonder.------


I have never refuse any one. I answer what I know according to my level. but I would not speak in the duality term if I am trying to present non dual.





Fusing the mind into the body with deep relaxation to power the body mechanics will generate allot of the so called chi phenomena. -----

Chi has martial Chi or literate chi. one drain one's body. one cultivate one's body. So, until one knows that and how to handle that. one doesnt know qi.

Go read all the book out there, see if they teach you what is the different on evoking martial chi or literate chi. one step wrong. one is in trouble.





So why confuse people with talking about chi? ----

I dont. I am trying to expand people's knowledge. such as If you teach Buddhism but never attain the Non Dual then all the delivation or speculation based on Duality is wrong. but how many could accept that? I couldnt either. I have to learn in the hard way with my life.



Why don't you define the development process, rather than talking about oranges.----

The best way is to get a sifu who have attainment.

Similar to Buddhism, if I dont have the Zen patriach Ven. Hsuan Hua who has the transmittion as sifu, how could I even know what is non dual?

NOt to mention, the development process is an always modifiying one. I myself still always screw up and need people advance then me to help me.




If it exists and it is real, there must be a method of developing it. Define the method.---

You problem is trying to use Duality to define non dual as we all are. and that bring one no where but frustration.

Do I frustrated too before having a sifu? yes. after that I am still frustrated because in the journey so many concept needs to be change....



Honest talk is always difficult. someday, when you are they you know. it is just obvious.


Dont teach fighting or defending, be no self that is what my Zen sifu taught me and now I am out of WCK.
Best Luck.

[Hendrik]

you really do not make good sense at times. -----


I dont because I am trying to be honest and dont want to waste others life.



I am attempting to avoid being forceful in my opinions as it makes others think I am being arrogant or something, but I have to say here that I do not believe you know what you are talking about. -----


Everything you say is ok with me. what I know or dont doesnt matter. I come from energy realm I will go back to energy realm. my name will be forgotten and that is nature.


First of all, Qi, or Chi, is not some invisible force that one develops like in a star wars movie. Qi is simply an electrical flow that follows your blood flow. It works quite well with accupuncture. It rediates out from your belly button. That is where your life began. Dangling from the end of an umbilical cord. You can disrupt that flow and it will disrupt everything from that point on to the point to where it stops, which is the very tips of your digits. It can not be thrown or cast from your body like some forcefield. It flows along perfectly aligned structure making it stronger. That is the best that I can explain it.----


By book you are 100000% correct.




I am not that good with discriptions. It is easy for you to sit and exude yourself as some sort of master of Qi force, but you have not made a single attempt at describing it except to talk about oranges. Maybe you have, but like I said, you are not making sense. --------

you could be right either way.



Speaking of oranges, I put gasoline in my old truck now and then. I could not tell you exactly what is in that gasoline, but I can tell you exactly what it does. This is the same thing with Chi. I can not fully explain to anyone what it is that I feel when I feel it, but I can explain what it does for me. I might be right or I might be wrong, as I don't think anyone really knows,--------


you are right. however, if one is a chemical engineer with petrorium expert. what will they say? until then how can one tell which gas is which grade...etc




but it is my own personal opinion that Chi is nothing more than biomechanics approaching perfection. ----

Nope.

biomechanics is a level lower then Chi.




I have been a chunner for half a century, and although I have not trained it in a few years now, I did so regularly for most of that time. I think I might have developed at least some biomechanical skills in that time. And maybe a little Chi too. -----


You sure might develop some biomechanical skill.

[Hendrik]

There is no contradiction between bio machanics and qi, instead Qi will extend what one could do with bio machanics or bring bio machenics to a higher/deeper level. and there is no end to it.

---Ah! Glad to see you actually admitting that, because you sure didn't admit that in the past! On more than thread talking about biomechanics you jumped in to say that we didn't know what we were talking about and that it was all about Qi development. I'm happy to see you finally refining your viewpoint a bit. :D



Qi extend Bio machenics.
But Bio mechanics development is not equal to qi development.

By the anceint chinese martial art standard. until on got the qi part one is just excercising and sure that is good for biomechanics.





---I've followed Hendrik's posts for several years now, and that's his standard approach. Don't expect him to provide any real guidance or information or you will be disppointed! He will continue to talk in riddles and innuendos and tell you to go Bai Shi with someone who knows. He seldom comes here to discuss things in an actual give and take exchange. Years back he used to post about some of his historical research, and that was good. But ask him about how he does his own Wing Chun or what it consists of and you will be disappointed. ------


you jump gun. as always. hahaha.



Lee wrote:
Kendrik, you really do not make good sense at times. I am attempting to avoid being forceful in my opinions as it makes others think I am being arrogant or something, but I have to say here that I do not believe you know what you are talking about.

---I feel your frustration Lee, because I have been there many times with Hendrik myself! But I think that Hendrik does have some real knowledge. He is just unwilling to share it.



Not that I am unwilling to share. 1, if you want to do " comes accept. goes accept to let it goes...." you need none duality expereince, if you keep reading what I said with duality. then you are not going to know what I am talking about. and In fact I have already told you the answer.

2, even in my state, I need a sifu. the other day I just have a big screw up that can cause my life. so, if I have a sifu, I would not go that way....... There is no end to the training. and in fact the deeper one goes the mishandling a little cause a lots of problem.

Those are the facts.



---Don't get me wrong. I'm not posting here to put down Hendrik. I'm just trying to get you guys to avoid the frustration I've known many times when trying to discuss anything with Hendrik. It won't go anywhere! Don't worry about Hendrik or what he has to say because he won't share anything real. He'll tell you that you are on the wrong path and don't know what you are talking about, then when you ask him to explain or elaborate he'll just tell you to go "Bai Shi." So ignore him and have your own discussion.


You dont. You say what you say because you didnt enter the door.
Ask Jim, how far he wants to stop? I goes this far because i need to take care of my dna defect. Do I want to go this far? nope, it is due to live and death.



on other hand, what good is if I told you a trick to generate some power to hurt some one? as my sifu Ven Hsuan Hua told me. you do that the karma is going to return to you.

Well, I admit, I dig into lots of stuffs while I am doing the investigation on history and that comes the technics....etc. however, I also realized. should I tell you to hurt others? where you got to pay for it?

See, all of these are just a dream, we all are dreaming within the non dual. using the tool to realize non dual and set ourself free is better then using the tool to hurt someone and ego boost our identity but always trap withint the duality and suffer. there is un limited creating in Non Dual( the world you and me are one or no me) and there is un limited karma can be generate within duality ( the world you and me are seperate and struggle)

If my words can cause you to go to either direction. I choose to lead you to non dual. That way we both win.

think, what goods to be able to use shock jing and get a ego boost or invincible. But cant change one's own dna defect. what is the point? we are certainly not living on to showing off. but we all like to live in joy and peace and abundance. and Look at the past few generations of WCK, doesnt family fight with family, doesnt fight happen within family? Is that peace? what is it about Number 1? who is number 1?


Yes, there is process of cultivate Qi. and that is beyond what we think. Yes, in the process of cultivate Qi one needs a close sifu to monitor one to make changes.
yes, with qi one's SLT is different compare with without qi. Yes, Qi link direct to Shen and Yee Then body mechanics follow. Internal is those stuffs. and knowing internal without knowing non dual is set up for suffering either in this life or next one.

I pay my due and you think about it. there is nothing macho the day one die. disregard of who. and do we have handling on it or we goes on fantasy to be number one and when that day comes our qi defuse and no control? the day we die who care who are you? be it a super hero or a slump wimp. see I dont want to be a super hero or a slump wimp. those are the view of duality world. I want to be just I the non dual --- the free one. meet me there and you know wing chun internal. praise the spring is for eternity. only non dual can be eternal. the world within duality is the world of Change. There is no eternity.


my WingChun is about release and set free and non duality. This is how clear I can tell you all. If I die, then let's the world know, the decendent of Yik Kam, doing his best to preserve the concept of the SLT kuit. It is not about number one but about let go and let God to have as you like it in the non dual realm.

[Hendrik]

There seems to be allot of chi kung teachers who translate the words "chi kung" as "energy work". So adding an extra description next to the word "Chi" to describe what type of energy it is, might be appropriate. Hendrik is good with translating so he might have more definitions of it.
I first studied under a western metaphysics teacher who only used English terms.
For example he used the terms "vital energy" to describe the bio energy of the body. Each type of energy had a descriptive word with it and a process of developing insight into it, then a process of developing mastery over it if appropriate. Everything had a set of laws which defined it. Being a westerner trying to tap into chinese thinking is not easy for me, so I just stick with the western terms and principles which mostly come from india anyway. There is only one dhamma (universal laws) so no matter what language we use, they are pointing at the same thing.
I found it best to present the techniques to discern what vital energy is, rather than talk about vital energy. Talking about it creates false views. Working with proven methods brings about direct insight into the term. There are many methods to experience it.
Here is one method I received through the Shingon Buddhist school.

Breath meditation

Sit quietly, still the mind.
Bring your awareness to your breathing.
Breathe into the lower diaphragm sinking the mind to your COG.
Breathe out directing a current of relaxation down to the tailbone up the spine, over the top of the head, through the tip of your tongue and out of your mouth.
Repeat until you become comfortable with it.
Then add counting.
Breath into the COG behind the navel in the middle of your body.
Breath out in the same manner as before, but begin pronouncing the number 1
Breath in and finish pronouncing the number 1 aloud.
Repeat upto 10 then start again. This will regulate the in and out breath correctly
After a few minutes, do the counting silently.
By the end of the exercise, the COG becomes warm, the mind and energy of the body is centered.

I believe variations of this exercise have been taught in Japan for about 1200 years through the Shingon school. So it has been thoroughly tested. It is the first basic meditation training in that school.

Law of resonance in regards to learning

Imagine the frequency of your body to act as a tuning fork. If you are around other tuning forks of the same frequency that are being activated, your tuning fork will begin to vibrate due to their energy output if on the same frequency.
So practicing this in a group allows you to first tune the frequency in while others are activating it for you. Before long you have received the transmission well enough to remember it and repeat it on your own. Taking advantage of this speeds up development and keeps you on track. Hence the need for a teacher.

Just a few thoughts
Mark



Mark,



Thus I have hear.

the issues are

1, there are pre birth shen and post birth shen. until one get in to the pre birth shen. it is hopeless to training the yee. most of the people today is using the post birth shen and that is duality. thus, they cant stay long in the meditation and the non dual cannot open up. After the Dantien is fill to a certain level, the post birth shen must be drop to go ahead......when one is cultivate the qi in the dan dien one needs to use both the martial type of chi an
literate type of qi to heat it up, to warm it up..... and then use the shen to concentrate it.....

2, you are a buddhist, good I believe is you heart. read the shurangama.


“Further, Ananda, if living beings in the six paths of any
mundane world had no thoughts of killing, they would not have
to follow a continual succession of births and deaths........

http://online.sfsu.edu/&#37;7Erone/Buddhism/Shurangama/ps.ss.02.v6.020526.screen.pdf



This is the process towards non dual.

The Ear Organ...



“Initially, I entered the flow through hearing and forgot
objective states. Since the sense-objects and sense-organs were
quiet, the two characteristics of movement and stillness
crystallized and did not arise. After that, gradually advancing,
the hearing and what was heard both disappeared. Once the
hearing was ended, there was nothing to rely on, and awareness
and the objects of awareness became empty. When the
emptiness of awareness reached an ultimate perfection,
emptiness and what was being emptied then also ceased to be.
Since production and extinction were gone, still extinction was
revealed.


http://online.sfsu.edu/%7Erone/Buddhism/Shurangama/ps.ss.02.v5.020526.screen.pdf



you make your own judgement how close you know and follow this? if not one need a sifu. Who know these.... I would not second guess but begging for a sifu.


will you still be a wingchuner after you enter the door?

Best Regards


Remember the Shurangama. that is the core of Zen. and the precepts must be follow. for thousand of years since the Buddha, the process never changes. and BTW the first few step of the process lead one from post birth shen to prebirth shen. Yes, there is only one non dual. I spend 30 years to get this far baisi with lots of sifus and lots of screw ups to spy a little bit. how much time do you think if one keep thinking in the old duality way can have a grasp of what it is even in the surface?

Starting the internal with I and I want to do something is a trap. starting with I like to let go anything to reach there. that get one in a proper direction. and they are both in the opposite direction. One is creation one is undo. the undo knows how to create however the create trap themself in the creation dont know how to undo. That is the bottom line.



At certain point of meditation, one let go, and that get one into the flow. but letting go is not drift into dreaming or sleeping or lost in thought streams, but enter into silence. no thought at all, no Nim Tau. ( that is the reason I argue, it is siu lin tau, detail training essence, not Siu Nim Tau (small idea) for any idea big or small keep one outside the silence. thus, that doesnt fit our kuit as it says using silence to lead the action.) Let go let god. that is prebirth....

As it says in the kuit, Using Silence to lead action. without entering there to silence how can one knows? but once one enter into silence will one come back to live as a duality person? chances is not for life and death become a tiredsome struggle.

Thus, I have heard.




which world do you live in? do or undo


Just some 5 cents.

[Hendrik]

so may be we need to ask.

Is your wing chun internal instead of is wing chun internal?

[Katsu Jin Ken]

"External should become internal in the long run, and the internal styles may incorperate the external with relaxed power like fajing. The Waiji and Neiji both need to be practiced. You need a balance because the external practices are faster and have more action. But you need control too, and internal methods are more involved with developing the mind and the qi. But in the end the hard has to meet the soft and the soft must come together with the hard. They have to mix."- Grandmaster Chen Yun-Ching from this months Kungfu Taichi Mag.

[Hendrik]

"External should become internal in the long run, and the internal styles may incorperate the external with relaxed power like fajing. The Waiji and Neiji both need to be practiced. You need a balance because the external practices are faster and have more action. But you need control too, and internal methods are more involved with developing the mind and the qi. But in the end the hard has to meet the soft and the soft must come together with the hard. They have to mix."- Grandmaster Chen Yun-Ching from this months Kungfu Taichi Mag.


disregards what others said, internal = release = undo.

external = do = create.

A "do" based long run will not get one into undo infact it becomes more and more do and more and more complex. look at some martial art with 10000 forms. it traps itself to death.

Using a 'Do" based to mimic internal will not do it because if the person keep simplified it the system becomes incomplete. such as some system get critics become a system of a single rapid middle punch.


An "undo" system using a let go let go core. thus, it is always let go let GOd disreagards of how the external form or shape it. The body is like snake because it has to be capable of "limitless" transformation as needed.

if the "undo " concept get lost, the whole system is gone.




Can Jesus Christ be a master if one foot he steps on keep thinking making more money for himself and one foot he steps on the kingdom of God?





World has become not making any sense. thus, we facing with Thai boxer or mmA, all these so called internal guys dont know what to do, for the thai and mmA have thier edge who can crush their sharp edge with limited training in physical and no training in shen and qi?



Back to the non dual. dont understand that will not get one in. non dual is wuji. there is only one reality but do we know that reality or we keep speculate about reality within our mind. again, if one have never met Silence. by default one cant says one master wing chun.

" comes accept...... using the silence to lead the action." it is from this silence the milliod of things transcent. it is alive not fix to some mechanical or bio mechanical limiting action.

So how to fajing? how can a fajing has a fix mechanical or bio mechanical and still call flow? ask ourself. anything can fajing and fajing doesnt mean hit. wrap others like a snake is also fajing.

wake up. dont be mislead by culture tradition. what is the bottom line of Buddhism? simply could one enter the flow and reach non duality. doesnt have to do with I need to do this bow that or ware that pajama or who is my gure. CAn one coach you into the non dual? if not what buddhism is that? . there are 10millions way fo showing respect. but in order to learn something one needs to show respect to the teacher and that is baisi. See, things is not for sale it is on showing universal law.

Simply as anyone love to learn Chris' teaching. they go very humbly to the master, and the master will lead them. NOthing for sale. one needs to bring up one's resonance or vibe to accept the bigger vibe. these days some people are so stupid that they dont understand this.
does one have the vibes? if not one can pay but will not get it. does one have the vibes? if no how can one teach it to others?

[Liddel]

World has become not making any sense

Well me laugh that made. :cool:

DREW

[WingChunWay]

I teach Buddhism in classes, so I refer to as Buddhist Wing Chun.---

Ok. Thanks. But Buddhism is oppose fighting or even defending. When things are non dual. There is no fighting or defending.

Remember as it said " comes accept, goes accept and let it goes back...." Isnt that non dual? Get it?.

Developing non dual, non - harming intent while training a striking art can be a dilemma. I focus primarily on join, intercept and break structure for my personal training.
This started strangely enough through door work as my job was to keep the peace when the fights broke out. After a few hundred punches being thrown at me by people who really wanted to hurt me, I found a sense of harmony in dealing with violence. Since my job was a peace keeper, it was my only option. By the time the Buddhism kicked it was just a process of emptying and refining it within the Wing Chun framework that ultimately becomes formless.

When things are non dual there is no fighting or defending because you simply are not there to fight or defend. The insight to side step a situation is there or to handle it in manner where you are not fighting, not defending but just bringing peace to people who forgot themselves for a moment.






Dont teach fighting or defending, be no self that is what my Zen sifu taught me and now I am out of WCK.
Best Luck.

It sound like you had a wise teacher. Being nonself is less about what you do and more about your mindfulness as you do it. We are fighting and defending in everything we do in life, it is just happening on a different level. The mind is dual. It is mindfulness that allows a person to see the duality and have a choice on how to proceed. Your choice was to be out of Wing Chun, mine is to practice mindfulness of phenomena through it.
Just different paths.
Best wishes
Mark

[Hendrik]

Developing non dual, non - harming intent while training a striking art can be a dilemma. I focus primarily on join, intercept and break structure for my personal training.
This started strangely enough through door work as my job was to keep the peace when the fights broke out. After a few hundred punches being thrown at me by people who really wanted to hurt me, I found a sense of harmony in dealing with violence. Since my job was a peace keeper, it was my only option. By the time the Buddhism kicked it was just a process of emptying and refining it within the Wing Chun framework that ultimately becomes formless.------


watch out,

non dual is not using mind.
using mind how little it is to strategy, focus..... are the product of dual.
in the silence everything is there and flow. one just dont think.

one would not be able to know what is formless unless one enter the silence or quiet all thoughts.

When things are non dual there is no fighting or defending because you simply are not there to fight or defend.

with confusion, seperation is created, seperation then create the mind and mind further makes more seperation. the mind cannot stop itself. dont believe me? when you are sleep people call you are you going to awake? see it hard wire.







It sound like you had a wise teacher.----


i go to him because he is the patriach who carry the non dual seal of the buddha. want to learn the truth. go to those who has it.





Being nonself is less about what you do and more about your mindfulness as you do it. We are fighting and defending in everything we do in life, it is just happening on a different level. The mind is dual. It is mindfulness that allows a person to see the duality and have a choice on how to proceed. -------

mindfullness is still within mind, like a deep water fish, going shallow doesnt means see the sky. and know both sea and sky.

until one break the hard wire, one stuck in the mind and dual.





Your choice was to be out of Wing Chun, mine is to practice mindfulness of phenomena through it.
Just different paths.----



sure, however, i would not call my wing chun buddhist if i do it within dual. and also how buddhist is buddhist if teaching other to create more karma instead of liberation?

similar to the shaolin who dont have zen and martial is one non dual is not true shaolin. check it out. the reality is under the public eyes but people choose to not see it.


you want straight talk. here you get but you might dont like it. so do many. and somedays you know there is no alternative to end suffering. you give raise the fighting mind, you will attack fighting. law of attraction, law of resonance. but we all use these law selectively and the blame others.


internal wing chun " come ACCept. goes Accept to let it go, release and liberate, enter the silence and let everything flow." notice there is no think but accept accept, release, liberate, silence, flow. there is no think and mindfull.

dont believe me take a stop watch and see for youself how long can you stay mindfull and how wide you mindfull range? i say unless is in non dual, the range is limited not more then 180&#37; hold to the mindfull even at the best condition not more then 5 mins. that is how mindfull is mindfull. the mind is lying to us and some choose to belive. ya, go to the spar, resolt, yoga class, meditation class... how mindfull is mindfull?

simple and clear but how many willing to see it?


some even complain I use the EEG and HRT to check one's condition. see we are not willing to admit we dont know but saying different path. I told Rene once, saying different path is just about giving face. if we start to say "you dont know S$it" and use the biofeedback machine to scan. the whole world will riote against you." so, everything is ok. as everyone likes it. eventhough it doesnt mean there is no truth.


my 5 cents

[bawang]

yung chun in foshan includes qigong in their 3 forms, so i guess some style has internal parts.

[lord po]

Hi to all,
I'm new here.

I jump directly in the discussion because I see it's very interesting.
My viewpoint is (as someone stated earlier) that if your experience is low or not enough interested in the long run,you should and must concentrate on pure physical level and bio_mechanics.

probably was the item number one in creating fast groups of fighter in the early days, maybe; I was not there!

If having been clear on the physical level, one has still the drive to be a beginner, and humble enough to say oneself that one's knowledge is nothing, then it becomes a long, endless path toward the internal.
Looking inside for subtle connections between things,chemical reaction controlled at will,and impulses given to SNC from one's source and so on.
and we are still talking about qi/energy.
(The field gets a lot subtle advancing versus "shen ability" and following the path and so on.But for this evidence as reality are often confused with tricks and false gurus.so we keep aside for now...)

This was the way to produce Monks, and of course this required deep dedication and lot of time.

Today is still the same paradigm and evidently the same two groups that discussing togheter finds them at one side of the corner looking the other for completion.

This has to be viewed not as a difference separing the fellow, but a tool to exchange even more.

Thank you for your attention.

[tattoosbyish]

i was told by my sifu that the internal aspects of wing chun are implied in the system... he said that is what his sifu told him and his sifu before.......

i study the moy yat system and i also have studied with a tai chi master and still practice my tai chi while learning wing chun......and i find internal perspective can apply to wing chun, i can not flat out say that wing chun is an internal art but in playing hands with my sifu i feel things that i wouldnt necessarily say is brute strength, there is something else going on..........i can compare some of my experiences between the two if anyone is interested? as well maybe spell out a few other things about internal theory that i was taught......

[GlennR]

i was told by my sifu that the internal aspects of wing chun are implied in the system... he said that is what his sifu told him and his sifu before.......

i study the moy yat system and i also have studied with a tai chi master and still practice my tai chi while learning wing chun......and i find internal perspective can apply to wing chun, i can not flat out say that wing chun is an internal art but in playing hands with my sifu i feel things that i wouldnt necessarily say is brute strength, there is something else going on..........i can compare some of my experiences between the two if anyone is interested? as well maybe spell out a few other things about internal theory that i was taught......

Is that a record for digging up old posts? ;)

[tattoosbyish]

haha perhaps.......but i just joined the converstaion

[GlennR]

haha perhaps.......but i just joined the converstaion

2001? Ahhhhh............... takes me back ;)

[LaterthanNever]

"using jing power rather than internal buildup of chi to execute the moves"

Well..ahh..what do you think "jing" is after all? Fa jing..as a concept is related to "lek"(power). Thus..if someone has no jing...it is said they have no "sat lek"(solid power). Jing is "internal" is my point

This whole idea of "He doesn't do kung fu..he only teaches tai-chi"..or some other such idea is flawed.

Tai Chi is absolutely a kung fu style.

There is a certain point in training in which these distinctions of "internal" or "external" begin to blur...

[Vajramusti]

2001? Ahhhhh............... takes me back ;)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Same old same old topics float round and round in the wind tunnel over time.!

zzzzzzz


joy

[YiQuanOne]

Any movement can be done external or internal, styles are there as tools to use to build yourself. Everyone starts out as a external practioner, some styles will make it easier or harder to complete your transition to internal.

Wing Chun is one of the easiest simple methods to make that transformation to a internal aspect, if practiced correctly.

Some styles will never leed you to internal, like boxing, MMA, Karate ect., their just based on building the muscles and speed.

Styles like Tai-Chi will leed to internal, but the tools are not simple and very few get there using the form method that is being taught by most teachers these days. If the teacher does not have it, they cannot teach it to the student.

So just learning the forms is the external part, making the forms internal is the hard part.

If you can get the internal from doing one of these styles (tools) then you can apply it to movements of boxing ,MMA , Karate ect..

So yes Wing Chun I think is one of the most direct simplest method to build your house. You will still need the guidence of one that can show how the tools need to be used or else you will always just being doing external Wing Chun.

From what I have seen most people are mostly learning external Wing Chun and are unaware of the difference.

:)

[trubblman]

Wow! this thread is 10 years old.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't know why people want to get on the "internal" wagon. The word "internal" doesn't necessary have good reputation.

[lance]

Here's mine. I don't think Wing Chun is an internal system, based off a collection of facts and experiences.

1) Other internal stylists definetly think that Wing Chun is externally based, using jing power rather than internal buildup of chi to execute the moves. This could probably be discounted, though, because what does a Bagua man know about Wing Chun? But still worthy of consideration.

2) Historically, not counting the Yim Wing Chun LEGEND (it may be true, but we know that Wing Chun was in existence over 200 years before Yim Wing Chun was alive. However, she probably did make the system famous and rename it after herself. Wing Chun is a system probably made to teach groups of peasants how to fight in a short amount of time--this explains why 80% of the training involves two people--you're teaching two people something at the same time, which is faster and leads to actual combat skills in shorter amounts of time.
Also, Wing Chun was made presumably with the idea of cutting out uneconomical moves from traditional southern styles--internal styles are mostly comprised of moves that seem uneconomical when compared to 'combat reality' moves. I think the people who created Wing Chun were probably seen much as we see combat realists/MMA people in our times.
3) Most of ideas regarding Wing Chun as an internal style seem to branch from the first 6 moves of Sil Lim Tao, which are done extremely slow. When asked why it is done so slow, many people assume it is done slow for the same reasons Tai Chi sets are done slow (and they are at about the same pace,) which is to collect and store and cultivate Chi. Well, this isn't necessarily the case--and even seems unlikely, since there are no other slow moves in the entire system.
A more plausible explanation is that in Sil Lim Tao, you are learning the very basics of Wing Chun, and thus the base that all the rest of your knowledge stems from. If you learn to perform all of your moves perfectly from the start, you will have a strong foundation on which to base your skills. Now, think again. Why are the punches done 3 times, slow motion, and then 3 more at the end? Which move are you most likely to be doing the most in your Wing Chun career? The straight punch is the heart of Wing Chun, coming from the centerline to your opponent's centerline--the poetic basis of Wing Chun--Heart to Heart.
Look at the other slow moves--(their chinese names escape me, so I will use English descriptions to explain them) the tan sau, the hand ridge block (god, why can't I remember it's Chinese name? =P I know I know it,) and the hooking block. TThe hand ridge block and the Tan block and the hooking hand block are three of the four root blocks, from which every other Wing Chun block is based off of. The only block not present in these three moves that comprises one of the root blocks is the Bong Sau, which sort of makes sense, since the Bong Sau has no other blocks which resemble it--it sort of stands alone. The slow returning ridge hand block builds up arm strength, and once again it is teaching you the EXACT positioning for the blocks so that your base for learning Wing Chun is strong.

Those are my points. What points are there that support Wing Chun as an internal system?

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

Scott , to me WC is both an internal and external system , you know why ? You pretty much explained it in the Sil Lum Tao form , that when it ' s done slow like tai chi that ' s the internal part of WC , now you mentioned about the 3 punches ?
Lets say the attacker throws a right punch aiming for your face area you throw your own right punch at his face too , but deflecting his punch away from your face , from there you throw 2 more punches . This comes from Sifu Gary Lam .

The external part is when you use those WC moves for fighting like the taun sao ,
pak sao , bong sao , downward pak sao , fook sao , huen sao . And the 2 forms Chum Kiu and bil jee . The chum Kiu contains techniques for breaking the attackers' elbows , and the throwing moves which comes from the twisting of your entire body , and the kicking techniques . BIL JEE also is unique too using the fingers to strike at the different parts of the attackers' body . Bil Jee also contains kicks too as well as the kwan sao and using the elbows in a different ways just like Chum Kiu , bil jee , and sil lum tao . So each form has something to offer the individual person . Wong Shun Leung say the Sil Lum Tao form should be done very slowely to get the internal benefits , even Augustine Fong emphasize on the samething too . Ip Man would do this form for 1 hour to get the internal benefits .

When you fight using WC you would just move into the opponent as he attacks you . WC is known for it ' s agressive fighting ways . You develop internal power by practicing the Sil Lum Tao form , to develop the external power you condition your hands by striking at wall bags and punch it too and train in the SLT stance with your hands by your waist . To gain internal power .

Other than what I mentioned if possible train on the wooden dummy that ' ll condition the external part of the body . If you can inflict damage on your attackers' first punch , it ' ll make him walk away from fighting with you , because he ' ll feel the contact anyway , if he ' s smart . If he thinks that he can handle your punishment then he ' s stupid . I ' m also speaking from experiences . On the history of WC I do agree with you .

The WC book by GM Chueng talks about the SLT form in the body theres' accupunture meridians lines , The moves of the SLT form when you do it slow it circulates the internal chi to move through the meridians of your accupuncture points . You can also massage it to heal yourself and other methods which the book Chi Power explains .

[Hardwork108]

Any movement can be done external or internal, styles are there as tools to use to build yourself. Everyone starts out as a external practioner, some styles will make it easier or harder to complete your transition to internal.

Wing Chun is one of the easiest simple methods to make that transformation to a internal aspect, if practiced correctly.

Some styles will never leed you to internal, like boxing, MMA, Karate ect., their just based on building the muscles and speed.

Styles like Tai-Chi will leed to internal, but the tools are not simple and very few get there using the form method that is being taught by most teachers these days. If the teacher does not have it, they cannot teach it to the student.

So just learning the forms is the external part, making the forms internal is the hard part.

If you can get the internal from doing one of these styles (tools) then you can apply it to movements of boxing ,MMA , Karate ect..

So yes Wing Chun I think is one of the most direct simplest method to build your house. You will still need the guidence of one that can show how the tools need to be used or else you will always just being doing external Wing Chun.

From what I have seen most people are mostly learning external Wing Chun and are unaware of the difference.

:)

Very well put. I would even go further and say that because most people are learning external Wing Chun, they are not then really learning Wing Chun. If there is no Yin present in the Wing Chun that one is learning then one is not learning the style in the way it was designed to be mastered, hence they are learning something else, ie. a "shell" of what WC should be !

That is my humble and honest opinion.

[Graham H]

Wong Shun Leung say the Sil Lum Tao form should be done very slowely to get the internal benefits

When WSL said "internal benefits" he meant that what you are thinking is important! WSL did not believe in "chi" according to people I have spoke to that knew him. Ving Tsun is not like Tai Chi!!!

Your ideas about SLT, CK MYJ and BJ are totally different to the WSL lineage.

GH

[Graham H]

That is my humble and honest opinion.

...and you are entitled to your opinion but you are wrong! ;)


GH

[HumbleWCGuy]

I don't think so. What do you think? Back it up with theories and actual fact, not preference or fond wishes.

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

Wing Chun as a combative method should not be taught as an internal system. Now having said that, most TCMA have internal aspects including WC. When it comes to those internal aspects, you can treat them as magic or you can try to demystify them. There are a number of things in martial arts that are thought of as displaying internal power, but I tend to focus on what I believe to be the important lesson.

Blind fold training
Some would consider it as ESP. I Treat it as as an opportunity to learn to trust other senses like feel and hearing.

Breaking
Some might consider this to be a demonstration of internal power. Anyone who breaks really knows that breaking is really about confidence and technique.

Demonstrations of Immobility
Some might consider this a demonstration of internal power. Really, it is a demonstration of people who have trained for a while and developed dynamic and static strength (via stretching, plyometrics, and isometrics), learned to sink their weight, and learned to redirect force.


I have seen other things like monks who claim to use their chi to resist cold and so on . What they really are doing is just tightening their cores to generate heat which is a basic special forces tactic to resist cold. The list goes on and on.

The list goes on with mediation, various iron techniques, technique categorization, fighting strategy, and so on. They are all mystified by certain groups of people partly to appears as wise and in a number of cases because of an instructor's lack of experience to explicitly explain the processes involved.

[HumbleWCGuy]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Same old same old topics float round and round in the wind tunnel over time.!

zzzzzzz


joy

That's okay with me. I think that these questions get asked a lot because they are important. I like these opportunities to refine my explanations. Although, it is funny that this tread is soooo old.

[Hendrik]

Seriously,

if Wing Chun doesnt have the internal cultivation, Wing Chun is extremely limited.

[YiQuanOne]

Wing Chun as a combative method should not be taught as an internal system. Now having said that, most TCMA have internal aspects including WC. When it comes to those internal aspects, you can treat them as magic or you can try to demystify them. There are a number of things in martial arts that are thought of as displaying internal power, but I tend to focus on what I believe to be the important lesson.

Blind fold training
Some would consider it as ESP. I Treat it as as an opportunity to learn to trust other senses like feel and hearing.

Breaking
Some might consider this to be a demonstration of internal power. Anyone who breaks really knows that breaking is really about confidence and technique.

Demonstrations of Immobility
Some might consider this a demonstration of internal power. Really, it is a demonstration of people who have trained for a while and developed dynamic and static strength (via stretching, plyometrics, and isometrics), learned to sink their weight, and learned to redirect force.


I have seen other things like monks who claim to use their chi to resist cold and so on . What they really are doing is just tightening their cores to generate heat which is a basic special forces tactic to resist cold. The list goes on and on.

The list goes on with mediation, various iron techniques, technique categorization, fighting strategy, and so on. They are all mystified by certain groups of people partly to appears as wise and in a number of cases because of an instructor's lack of experience to explicitly explain the processes involved.


Internal means energy flows both directions, in and out, if only external bigger guy always win.
99.5% of people can only do energy in one direction, they are always expanding out. Running away or moving back is not doing energy in inward direction.

[WC1277]

IMO wing chun has internal but I don't think you have to do anything special to cultivate it other than just being aware of your own body.......just pay attention to your structure and the rest will come naturally...

[Hardwork108]

...and you are entitled to your opinion but you are wrong! ;)


GH

Your "humble" opinion is the same as the other, and unfortunately majority, clueless "kung fu-ists" who have become great at learning and mastering half truths as regards the TCMAs. I repeat, those who learn any TCMA on their external merits only are learning nothing but a largely empty "shell" of a given style.

That fact alone explains why so many nowadays see the TCMAs lacking and hence look to other styles, including irrelevant, as well as other largely "empty shell" systems to fill in the gaps.

Of course others, will stick to their empty shell Wing Chun until they find out that it is incomplete, the hard way, by getting hurt.

The fact is that all TCMAs have yin and yang aspects and these go deep. They involve specialist training and understanding of body unity, as well as "softness", finetuned "listening" and "sensitivity" abilities.

You need to do more research, even if it involves asking real kung fu masters. I mean you live in the UK for god's sake and there are at least two real masters there who you could research with.!!!

[k gledhill]

Your "humble" opinion is the same as the other, and unfortunately majority, clueless "kung fu-ists" who have become great at learning and mastering half truths as regards the TCMAs. I repeat, those who learn any TCMA on their external merits only are learning nothing but a largely empty "shell" of a given style.

That fact alone explains why so many nowadays see the TCMAs lacking and hence look to other styles, including irrelevant, as well as other largely "empty shell" systems to fill in the gaps.

Of course others, will stick to their empty shell Wing Chun until they find out that it is incomplete, the hard way, by getting hurt.

The fact is that all TCMAs have yin and yang aspects and these go deep. They involve specialist training and understanding of body unity, as well as "softness", finetuned "listening" and "sensitivity" abilities.

You need to do more research, even if it involves asking real kung fu masters. I mean you live in the UK for god's sake and there are at least two real masters there who you could research with.!!!

Who would they be ?

[GlennR]

Some styles will never leed you to internal, like boxing, MMA, Karate ect., their just based on building the muscles and speed.

Thats is the most clueless comment about the mentioned arts you could possibly make. The shame is that a lot of people think the same as you


Styles like Tai-Chi will leed to internal, but the tools are not simple and very few get there using the form method that is being taught by most teachers these days. If the teacher does not have it, they cannot teach it to the student.

So tell me, what measurable results will this internal get you??


If you can get the internal from doing one of these styles (tools) then you can apply it to movements of boxing ,MMA , Karate ect..

Why would you want to?


So yes Wing Chun I think is one of the most direct simplest method to build your house. You will still need the guidence of one that can show how the tools need to be used or else you will always just being doing external Wing Chun.

Can you tell me someone that could teach me this?



From what I have seen most people are mostly learning external Wing Chun and are unaware of the difference.:)[/QUOTE]

How do you measure that?

[GlennR]

[QUOTE]Your "humble" opinion is the same as the other, and unfortunately majority, clueless "kung fu-ists" who have become great at learning and mastering half truths as regards the TCMAs. I repeat, those who learn any TCMA on their external merits only are learning nothing but a largely empty "shell" of a given style.

Oh dear.
How do you measure someones "emptiness" Spencer??
Im betting combat effectiveness isnt something you use as a yardstick


That fact alone explains why so many nowadays see the TCMAs lacking and hence look to other styles, including irrelevant, as well as other largely "empty shell" systems to fill in the gaps.

The majority if people that leave/supplement TCMA are usually looking for a more realistic, measurable combat effective system or training method. And please let us know what styles are "irrelevant" or "largely empty shells"?


Of course others, will stick to their empty shell Wing Chun until they find out that it is incomplete, the hard way, by getting hurt.

Oh dear again.
And what makes you the judge of "empty shell" WC?
Your mastery of combat via your "complete" WC??


They involve specialist training and understanding of body unity, as well as "softness", finetuned "listening" and "sensitivity" abilities.

All of these attributes are found in BJJ, MT etc.
What makes TCMA so special??


You need to do more research, even if it involves asking real kung fu masters. I mean you live in the UK for god's sake and there are at least two real masters there who you could research with

You need to get in a ring with a boxer/MT/BJJ guy and realise what a straw house you live in

[Hardwork108]

Oh dear.
How do you measure someones "emptiness" Spencer??
You should ask Spencer, as I am not him.



Im betting combat effectiveness isnt something you use as a yardstick

Actually, Spencer has attended a Wing Chun seminar given by my sifu. Perhaps you should ask him wether he thought that my sifu was combat "ineffective"?




The majority if people that leave/supplement TCMA are usually looking for a more realistic, measurable combat effective system or training method.
And that is because they are training a given TCMA style INCOMPLETELY, without among other things taking into account the Internal dimensions of the art!

Hence what they are learning is at least partly, ineffective, meaning that they search "outside", presumably like you have done by training in Western Boxing and MT.......



And please let us know what styles are "irrelevant" or "largely empty shells"?

When I said "irrelevant", I did not mean irrelevant to fighting, I meant irrelevant to a given style of TCMA which one is meant to be "improving".

For example, cross training in an art that has contradicting rooting and tension principles to your core "kung fu" art. Then turning around and saying that you are still training that particular style of kung fu in an "improved" manner.

Largely empty shell styles are TCMAs that are taught by clueless people who call themselves "sifus". People who are not aware of the Internal (and often , even technical) dimensions of the art they are supposed to be teaching. In the past (and the present) I refer to such people (and their students) as Glorified Kickboxers!




Oh dear again.
And what makes you the judge of "empty shell" WC?
Access to proper kung fu tuition, and not just in the WC style of Kung Fu.


Your mastery of combat via your "complete" WC??
When you achieve your mastery of combat, then let me know!




All of these attributes are found in BJJ, MT etc.
What makes TCMA so special??
And this where your misunderstanding of the level of "sensitiveness" discussed is showing through, mainly because you have not been exposed to it through your normal training.

You have trained your WC in an external manner and no, no one is denying that there is sensitivity and "listening" involved in external arts. However the levels and the perception involved is at very much higher level.

Achieving this kind of sensitivity (and body unity seen in arts such as the Hakka ones), will open a world of possibilities as regards TCMA techniques, which according to popular belief among the kung fu-clueless, "don't work in real life"!



You need to get in a ring with a boxer/MT
Why would I want to fight them in their own battlefield? Has everyone here missed the point of kung fu training, (not to mention, the related Art of War)???


/BJJ guy and realise what a straw house you live in

Last time I mentioned the "ring" to one of those man-grapplers, he jumped up with joy, thinking that I was proposing marriage. :D

[Hardwork108]

Who would they be ?

I didn't know you lived in the UK :confused:

[Graham H]

Your "humble" opinion is the same as the other, and unfortunately majority, clueless "kung fu-ists" who have become great at learning and mastering half truths as regards the TCMAs.

That's easy for you to say because you are wrapped up in all that BS!! :D


I repeat, those who learn any TCMA on their external merits only are learning nothing but a largely empty "shell" of a given style.

No need to repeat because that means you are increasing the BS by 50%!! pfft!!


That fact alone explains why so many nowadays see the TCMAs lacking and hence look to other styles, including irrelevant, as well as other largely "empty shell" systems to fill in the gaps.

empty shell, empty shell blah blah blah!!


Of course others, will stick to their empty shell Wing Chun until they find out that it is incomplete, the hard way, by getting hurt.

Maybe you should lay off the 1970's Kung Fu movies dude!!!!:D


The fact is that all TCMAs have yin and yang aspects and these go deep. They involve specialist training and understanding of body unity, as well as "softness", finetuned "listening" and "sensitivity" abilities.

Yaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnn!


You need to do more research, even if it involves asking real kung fu masters. I mean you live in the UK for god's sake and there are at least two real masters there who you could research with.!!!

Oh yeah? Where? Because I looked and ended up in having to travel to another country.

You live in a dream world mate and you are part of a large percentage of idiots that think TCMA's can make you into some sort of supreme being where you can easliy beat these "empty shell" martial artists with ease. I've been to see these so called "kung fu masters" and the only thing they are masters of is pulling the wool over peoples eyes by disguising their lack of actual combat conditioning with esoteric nonsense. In order for these people to survive and multiply they need fools like you to beleive in them and then so the BS continues!

Sad is what you are mate!!! If there were such magical internal benefits to TCMA's that can overcome these "empty shells":rolleyes: then where are they? Surley China would have them in their Olympic Team! :D:D:D:D

GH

[WC1277]

Once again a case of different names for the same thing. Shows why English speakers start the majority of wars.....

Awareness of your body and correct instruction, whether by analogy or telling you your doing it wrong a thousand times over, is all you need...

[Hardwork108]

That's easy for you to say because you are wrapped up in all that BS!!

The fact that you refer to methodologies that you do not understand as BS, reflects badly on any remenants of TCMA knowledge you may have, not to mention on your sifu.




No need to repeat because that means you are increasing the BS by 50%!! pfft!!
Sometimes repetition is necessary when you are dealing with people who have no valid point of reference regarding certain TCMA methodologies.



empty shell, empty shell blah blah blah!!
Yep, you got the empty shell bit right.




Maybe you should lay off the 1970's Kung Fu movies dude!!!!:D
Well the subject of the 1970's kung fu movies is always brought up when glorified kickboxers are challenged by TCMA methodologies that they have no concept of. ;)




Yaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnn!
I suggest some chi kung practice to build up your energy and hence get rid of your sleapiness.




Oh yeah? Where? Because I looked and ended up in having to travel to another country.
You don't know how much that statement reveals about your "kung fu quest"...LOL!

Anyway, it must have been tough spending all those hours searching for authentic TCMA practice, through the Yellow Pages.....


You live in a dream world mate and you are part of a large percentage of idiots that think TCMA's can make you into some sort of supreme being
Again, you have gone into the usual Glorified Kickboxer defense mode. If people talk about TCMA methodologies that you are unaware of (and believe me, there are many), then they must be watching too many movies, or believe in "kung fu super powers".

By the way, feel free to show us where I said that TCMA practice can make one into a "supreme" being.:rolleyes:

Again, you and people like you miss the point, and that point is that if you study kung fu, or any discipline for that matter, then you must do so in the way it was designed to be practiced, even if it is "boring" or "does not make sense".

If you pick and choose or study from "sifus" who have butchered a given style, that they themselves have not even begun to understand, let alone master, then you are not actually studying that system, but an EMPTY SHELL!



where you can easliy beat these "empty shell" martial artists with ease.

Again, you are "running for the hills". Where did I say anything about beating people from external or "empty shell" styles?????



I've been to see these so called "kung fu masters" and the only thing they are masters of is pulling the wool over peoples eyes by disguising their lack of actual combat conditioning with esoteric nonsense. In order for these people to survive and multiply they need fools like you to beleive in them and then so the BS continues!

Right now it seems that you and those of the your ilk in this forum, have more experience with such "masters", than I do, hence the clueless comments and over defensiveness. ;)

Why can't people like you contemplate that there a good number TCMA methodologies that you are not aware of, nor have any idea of? Why must you act like you know everything and if you see something that is unfamiliar, then you automatically assume it is "BS".

Why make assumptions like that when your actual TCMA experience is at best, minimal?


Sad is what you are mate!!! If there were such magical internal benefits to TCMA's that can overcome these "empty shells":rolleyes: then where are they?
Can you show us where I mentioned "magical" benefits?

You know for martial artists, a lot of you guys get scared and insecure very quickly!!!


Surley China would have them in their Olympic Team! :D:D:D:D

GH

I wouldn't know, because I do not follow the Chinese Olympic training team's schedule.....:rolleyes:

[GlennR]

You should ask Spencer, as I am not him.
Aplogies to Spencer, the 108 threw me




Actually, Spencer has attended a Wing Chun seminar given by my sifu. Perhaps you should ask him wether he thought that my sifu was combat "ineffective"?

No offence to Spencer, but he admits his focus on WC is not combat, so i wouldnt hold his POV that high.



And that is because they are training a given TCMA style INCOMPLETELY, without among other things taking into account the Internal dimensions of the art!

I'll ask you again. Tell me how you measure this? Tell me what this gives them in relation to combat effectiveness?


Hence what they are learning is at least partly, ineffective, meaning that they search "outside", presumably like you have done by training in Western Boxing and MT.......

So you can direct me to someone that is "complete"?
To have such strong opinions you must surely be complete yourself


For example, cross training in an art that has contradicting rooting and tension principles to your core "kung fu" art. Then turning around and saying that you are still training that particular style of kung fu in an "improved" manner.

So you train solely with your fellow WC partners?



Largely empty shell styles are TCMAs that are taught by clueless people who call themselves "sifus". People who are not aware of the Internal (and often , even technical) dimensions of the art they are supposed to be teaching. In the past (and the present) I refer to such people (and their students) as Glorified Kickboxers!

So i assume you think your way of training is more effective at combat?



When you achieve your mastery of combat, then let me know!

Im effective at what i do... are you?



And this where your misunderstanding of the level of "sensitiveness" discussed is showing through, mainly because you have not been exposed to it through your normal training.

You have trained your WC in an external manner and no, no one is denying that there is sensitivity and "listening" involved in external arts. However the levels and the perception involved is at very much higher level.

How do you know what training ive done?



Achieving this kind of sensitivity (and body unity seen in arts such as the Hakka ones), will open a world of possibilities as regards TCMA techniques, which according to popular belief among the kung fu-clueless, "don't work in real life"!

Tell me of your real world experiences.



Why would I want to fight them in their own battlefield? Has everyone here missed the point of kung fu training, (not to mention, the related Art of War)???

So Kung Fu doesnt work in a ring?



Last time I mentioned the "ring" to one of those man-grapplers, he jumped up with joy, thinking that I was proposing marriage. :D[/QUOTE]

Hilarious....... you should do stand up

[Hardwork108]

No offence to Spencer, but he admits his focus on WC is not combat, so i wouldnt hold his POV that high.

His focus may not be combat, but he is a martial artist and I doubt that he is training kung fu as a dance. He is also an instructor. This means that you should give credence to his opinions in that regard!




I'll ask you again. Tell me how you measure this? Tell me what this gives them in relation to combat effectiveness?
I measure this by their own uniformed comments and dismissals of anything remotely "different" to what they have been exposed to.

As for combat effectiveness, then you can get it in various ways. So, I am not saying that you can only get it through traditional kung fu training!

What I am saying is that if you get it through MMA and kickboxing training, then don't refer to what you do as TCMA, or Wing Chun, as the case may be, just because you may be using some form of "Central Line Theory" or train "chi sao".

That is my point, not wether one methodology is more combat effective than another.




So you can direct me to someone that is "complete"?

Look, any major kung fu style will deal with all ranges of fighting, in one way or the other. They will also have Internal, as well as External aspects, that would have to be understood and mastered.

That is what makes properly taught TCMA styles "complete". Does that mean that they will have all the techniques under the sun? NO it doesn't, but they won't go "hey my style does not teach me to defend against a take down, therefore I will need to study Judo" !!!



To have such strong opinions you must surely be complete yourself

You are putting words in my mouth like Graham H. However, the WC I study is "complete" in the way I described above and so is the Chow Gar.




So you train solely with your fellow WC partners?

To get good foundations in the art one must primarily train with people within the system. Then afterwards, the world is your oister.

One more thing. The notion that a WC practioners has to practice/fight with everyother style on the planet, to be able to defeat them through being familiar with them, shows little understanding of the significance of this principle based system.

I am not necessarily saying that cross testing is not a good thing, what I am saying is that before one cross-tests, one should understand the system holistically
, that way he won't think that something is broke if he "hits an obstacle" when cross testing, before he is ready, and then going on to blame ALL TCMA methodologies under the sun and even the "1970s kung fu movies"...........




So i assume you think your way of training is more effective at combat?

NO, my way of training will enable me to use KUNG FU to defend myself, while incomplete or crosstrained systems will be using not much more than kickboxing techniques to achieve the same ends.

My issue is with people who refer to glorified kickboxing methodologies as TCMA, or even worse, when theys see what they do as "improved" TCMA....

How can one improve a TCMA style if one has not REALLY studied it enough build a solid understanding in it????



Im effective at what i do... are you?

I have good reason to believe that I am. Again, there are many people who are effective fighers who train in many other MAs. My issue is that most kung fu that is taught nowadays is incomplete.

Most people do not have an idea of the scope of the TCMA internals and hence ridicule it, yet while they do so, they are ready to criticise shortcomings in their own "kung fu" training, which is ironically and more often than not, is the result of them missing out on the Internal aspects (among other things).





How do you know what training ive done?

Your lack of "appreciation" of what I really mean by "sensitivity", "listening" and "sotness", gives me a pretty good idea of your training, so does your opinion regarding the internals.



Tell me of your real world experiences.

I am posting in kung fu forum about my real kung fu training experiences. If you like to discuss street fighting or sports fighting, you are free to do so in related forums.



So Kung Fu doesnt work in a ring?
If you train kung fu for the ring, then it will work in the ring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrJPEJStNb4&feature=related

However, I am not training to be a sports fighter!!





Hilarious....... you should do stand up

I am funny, and I know it, however I could not hold a candle to most of you guys as regards humor, specially when you are attempting to discuss the TCMAs........hilarious, just hilarious....:D

[GlennR]

His focus may not be combat, but he is a martial artist and I doubt that he is training kung fu as a dance. He is also an instructor. This means that you should give credence to his opinions in that regard!

Nonsense. You value his opinion as he has the same way of thinking as you.


I measure this by their own uniformed comments and dismissals of anything remotely "different" to what they have been exposed to.

As for combat effectiveness, then you can get it in various ways. So, I am not saying that you can only get it through traditional kung fu training!

What I am saying is that if you get it through MMA and kickboxing training, then don't refer to what you do as TCMA, or Wing Chun, as the case may be, just because you may be using some form of "Central Line Theory" or train "chi sao".

That is my point, not wether one methodology is more combat effective than another.

And i ask again.... how do you measure the outcomes of what you practise?



That is what makes properly taught TCMA styles "complete". Does that mean that they will have all the techniques under the sun? NO it doesn't, but they won't go "hey my style does not teach me to defend against a take down, therefore I will need to study Judo" !!!

Ok, so what does this complete KF exponent do against a take down??
Cry?
I dont think you understand the meaning of complete, is there a chinese version you get?


You are putting words in my mouth like Graham H. However, the WC I study is "complete" in the way I described above and so is the Chow Gar.

Youre telling everyone how complete you are, why not wear the crown proudly




To get good foundations in the art one must primarily train with people within the system. Then afterwards, the world is your oister.


One more thing. The notion that a WC practioners has to practice/fight with everyother style on the planet, to be able to defeat them through being familiar with them, shows little understanding of the significance of this principle based system.

Have you tested those principles yourself?



NO, my way of training will enable me to use KUNG FU to defend myself, while incomplete or crosstrained systems will be using not much more than kickboxing techniques to achieve the same ends.

My issue is with people who refer to glorified kickboxing methodologies as TCMA, or even worse, when theys see what they do as "improved" TCMA....

How can one improve a TCMA style if one has not REALLY studied it enough build a solid understanding in it????

How do you know what they'll use?
And how can you espouse purity of system while doing WC & Chow Gar??
Isnt that cross training?



I have good reason to believe that I am. Again, there are many people who are effective fighers who train in many other MAs. My issue is that most kung fu that is taught nowadays is incomplete.

Ill ask again, how have you tested this?



Your lack of "appreciation" of what I really mean by "sensitivity", "listening" and "sotness", gives me a pretty good idea of your training, so does your opinion regarding the internals.

Okayyy. So i make a comment about most martial arts having those skills and you instantly tag me.
And what opinion do i have of internals?
Seeing as you know what ive done so well id "appreciate" it of you could tell me more


I am posting in kung fu forum about my real kung fu training experiences. If you like to discuss street fighting or sports fighting, you are free to do so in related forums.

My apologies. I didnt realise we cant talk about fighting here


If you train kung fu for the ring, then it will work in the ring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrJPEJStNb4&feature=related

However, I am not training to be a sports fighter!!

Can you highlight the internal techiques there?



I am funny, and I know it, however I could not hold a candle to most of you guys as regards humor, specially when you are attempting to discuss the TCMAs........hilarious, just hilarious....:D

Dont sell yourself short........... youre a great little chuckle

[Graham H]

The fact that you refer to methodologies that you do not understand as BS, reflects badly on any remenants of TCMA knowledge you may have, not to mention on your sifu.

Does it really?? If what you write is TCMA knowledge then I'm glad I dont have any of it!!;)


Yep, you got the empty shell bit right.

I'm worried about some of the things that are in your head. I prefer empty shell!!



Well the subject of the 1970's kung fu movies is always brought up when glorified kickboxers are challenged by TCMA methodologies that they have no concept of. ;)

Show me some proof of TCMA please. Then I can see myself. Put some money where your mouth is!!



I suggest some chi kung practice to build up your energy and hence get rid of your sleapiness.

My brother teaches and practices Chi Kung. I know all about that stuff and whilst Chi Kung (like yoga) has many health benefits, it has nothing to do with fighting. I woud hazzard a guess that if you breathed on me I would be sparko!!:D


You don't know how much that statement reveals about your "kung fu quest"...LOL!

What are we talking about here??? I have knowledge of the WSL system of Kung Fu. I'm not interested in what you write or your TCMA's. I think you are giving them a bad name to be honest.


Anyway, it must have been tough spending all those hours searching for authentic TCMA practice, through the Yellow Pages.....

Didnt need the yellow pages. I went and found a good Teacher after much trial and error rather than speculate and make rough guesses based on video and internet posts ike most do on this forum.


Again, you have gone into the usual Glorified Kickboxer defense mode. If people talk about TCMA methodologies that you are unaware of (and believe me, there are many), then they must be watching too many movies, or believe in "kung fu super powers".

Better kickboxer than TCMA dreamer!!!!


By the way, feel free to show us where I said that TCMA practice can make one into a "supreme" being.:rolleyes:

Thats how you come across mate!!! Maybe you should read your posts back to yourself and take your hand out your pants!!!


Again, you and people like you miss the point, and that point is that if you study kung fu, or any discipline for that matter, then you must do so in the way it was designed to be practiced, even if it is "boring" or .................................................. .................................................. .........

I'll stop responding there because boring is how I find your posts!!

:confused:

GH

[SimonM]

I don't think so. What do you think? Back it up with theories and actual fact, not preference or fond wishes.

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

Internal / External is a false dichotomy. So, in short, no. :D

[Hendrik]

my take is

故人已散 留你在身旁
錯過了時光錯過了欣賞
擦肩而過的人是悲傷

[Graham H]

请以英文

:rolleyes:

GH

[Hendrik]

My brother teaches and practices Chi Kung. I know all about that stuff and whilst Chi Kung (like yoga) has many health benefits, it has nothing to do with fighting.


GH



What type of Chi Kung? any website?

[SimonM]

请以英文

:rolleyes:

GH

Hendrik believes he has more authority on martial arts if he only uses 中文
Just ignore him. He has nothing worthwhile to contribute but if you disagree with him he'll declare you an enemy of whatever martial art you are discussing after spending considerable time throwing around insults.

Worse than a troll. At least trolls are funny. :rolleyes:

[Graham H]

Hendrik believes he has more authority on martial arts if he only uses 中文
Just ignore him. He has nothing worthwhile to contribute but if you disagree with him he'll declare you an enemy of whatever martial art you are discussing after spending considerable time throwing around insults.

Worse than a troll. At least trolls are funny. :rolleyes:

LOL......good point!!!

GH

[Hendrik]

For those who wants to know IMA


http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1113225&postcount=245


hope someone with good chinese and english could translate it.

[Hardwork108]

Nonsense. You value his opinion as he has the same way of thinking as you.

Of course I value his opinion (and so should you), but that does not change the fact that he is a TCMA teacher and hence his opinion as regards another sifu would be credible.




And i ask again.... how do you measure the outcomes of what you practise?

It feels right. I am stronger and more confident and have had a steady increase in my abilities. Furthermore, the best way to really measure your combat effectiveness is to put yourself in a situation where somebody is out to basically kill or maim you and most of us have lives to live where that kind of "testing" is counterproductive, so we stick to realistic class sparring, or as in the case of others, cross train to spar with other styles. Hey, whatever makes them happy. LOL





Ok, so what does this complete KF exponent do against a take down??
Believe it or not, some TCMAs do address the ground scenario by fighting on the ground.

Other TCMAs address the ground by techniques designed to NOT go to the ground, or to get up as soon as possible if they are taken down. This may sound like rocket science to you, but there is not fantasy about it.

To prevent being taken down the fine tuned sensitivity and listening abilities will see the take down coming and will "hit first" (by the way, the quotation is a reference to a very well known TCMA concept). Of course, hitting first will do nothing to stop a takedown if one does not have the delivery base, including given body unity principles and training that will give one the SHOCK POWER, as seen in styles such as Chow Gar southern mantis. Wing Chun has its own version of short power, which is not as powerful as the Mantis one (IMHO).



Cry?

Of course, because there are no takedowns in TCMAs and there have never ever been wrestling arts in China. If anyone says otherwise, then he is lying. If anyone tells you that there are takedown techniques in the TCMAs, they are lying too. So the masters of old China never knew what takedowns were, that is why their kung fu "decendentes" will "cry" if someone tries to take them down with a judo or BJJ technique, whose origins can be traced,not to China, but to Shmucksville, Australia........:rolleyes:



I dont think you understand the meaning of complete, is there a chinese version you get?

On the contrary, I have stated clearly what I mean by "complete". All you have to do is read that post, a few times.




Youre telling everyone how complete you are, why not wear the crown proudly

Where did I say that I am "complete"?:confused:





Have you tested those principles yourself?

If you mean if I have gone out and had real fights (because that is the way that you will ulitibmately test any MA) with every other style on the planet, then NO!

However, it is evident that I have had better instruction and hence a better understanding of these principles than you.

By the way, have you studied this art properly and then gone on to test all of the principles in question, and failed??? LOL





How do you know what they'll use?
I know what they won't use, if they have gone on to mix their art with irrelevant styles that may perhaps use diffent power mechanics.

It is really silly when you do not understand relatively simple concept of not mixing styles that may have contradictory principles and concepts, as regards things like rooting, relaxation/tension mechanics in relation to delivery of power, etc.



And how can you espouse purity of system while doing WC & Chow Gar??
Well, here is a news flash for you. WC and Chow Gar share a lot of common ground. You mean you didn't even guess that?:eek:


Isnt that cross training?
It might just be called relevant cross training. ;) Actually, let me add that in a prefect world I would have finished the WC system and then gone on to increase my kung fu knowledge by studying other systems, however, I had to move and the only genuine kung fu school that I came across was the Chow gar one, and thank god for that, because the sifu in question opened my eyes to methodologies that most people can't even imagine that exist.





Ill ask again, how have you tested this?
My personal testing has been within the confines of the kwoon. I have kung fu brothers who have tested outside and with success I might add.

You will have to just face it that your idea of kung fu and its supposed shortcomings are limited to your experience and many others who have studied incompletely. So, in your case, any kind of cross training may be an improvement, even irrelevant ones.....





Okayyy. So i make a comment about most martial arts having those skills and you instantly tag me.
And what opinion do i have of internals?
Seeing as you know what ive done so well id "appreciate" it of you could tell me more

Don't know what you have done, but based on your own statements, I am pretty sure that you have NOT done any Internal practice. I mean you don't even believe they exist...LOL




My apologies. I didnt realise we cant talk about fighting here
We were not really discussing fighting, as such. We were discussing the often misunderstood discipline of TCMA(s), because of the fact that most people are exposed to them in an incomplete manner, leading to them making clueless conclusions and assumptions about their scope. So, far you are proving my point.;)



Can you highlight the internal techiques there?

Actually, that is the sports fighting (so beloved in this forum) manifestation of TCMAs. If you know so much about Internals, then you would know that some of the subtlities are not visible to the unlooker. I don't even know what the core style of the Chinese fighter was, but I know that for sports fighting, his emphasis would have been more on the External.

Having said that, you can see that the Chinese fighter looks more relaxed and fluid than his Japanese counterpart. These both qualities that are associated witht the internals. However, and again, in the sports arena, the skills gained from the relatively short term External methodolgies are more relevant.





Dont sell yourself short........... youre a great little chuckle

Hey, I am just doing my best to pay you guys back for all the laughter you keep providing me. Thanks for appreciating. ;):D

[Hardwork108]

Does it really?? If what you write is TCMA knowledge then I'm glad I dont have any of it!!;)
Yes, don't worry and be happy, and continue posting cluelessly in a TCMA FORUM! LOL!




I'm worried about some of the things that are in your head. I prefer empty shell!!
Of course you do. After all, you are the one that has invested years of your life studying the empty shell version of Wing Chun. Perhaps you, just like most people here, cannot handle the truth?





Show me some proof of TCMA please. Then I can see myself. Put some money where your mouth is!!

Wait a minute. You claim to practice a TCMA (last time I looked, Wing Chun WAS a TCMA), you post in a TCMA forum (last time I looked, Kung fu was a TCMA), and you are asking for "proof" of TCMA???? LOL!

Christ, wait til I get my hands on some of those Mcdojo "kung fu-ist sifus" that have churned out hundreds of confused MA-ists like yourself.:mad:




My brother teaches and practices Chi Kung. I know all about that stuff

Interesting. I know and I know of, kung fu masters who have practiced that "stuff" for decades, but they still say that they are still learning and there is a lot more to learn, yet you "know" all that "stuff" because your brother teaches it? You have got some brother there, my boy...LOL!


and whilst Chi Kung (like yoga) has many health benefits, it has nothing to do with fighting. I woud hazzard a guess that if you breathed on me I would be sparko!!:D

Cancel what I said about your brother. You have no idea. However, I will give you a hint. To get to help get to your hightened and fine-tuned sensitivity (which every knucklehead and his grandmother here seems to know about), you will need to calm your mind and rich hightened states of calmness and relaxation, which will in turn lead to a flowing mind. This relaxedness will also help give you what some TCMA-ists call "relaxed power".

Of course, then there are the "hard" chi kung exercises which I will not confuse you with...........




What are we talking about here??? I have knowledge of the WSL system of Kung Fu. I'm not interested in what you write or your TCMA's. I think you are giving them a bad name to be honest.

Well, show me somthing that I wrote that gives TCMAs a bad name!!!




Didnt need the yellow pages. I went and found a good Teacher after much trial and error rather than speculate and make rough guesses based on video and internet posts ike most do on this forum.

And your "good" teacher did not teach you anything about the Internals and the abilities acquired through training them? Interesting.....




Better kickboxer than TCMA dreamer!!!!

It has nothing to do with "dreaming", "fantasies" or "kung fu movies"! The fact is, if you want to learn any discipline then you must find qualified tuition and then do as you are told, and save your opinions for when you have studied and understood the given discipline. It is as simple as that!




Thats how you come across mate!!!

NO I don't! Making references to "kung fu movies" or "fantasy or magic" is a well known defense employed by glorified kickboxers in this forum when they are presented with TCMA methodologies they have no clue of.


Maybe you should read your posts back to yourself and take your hand out your pants!!!

I don't need to read my own posts, as I am the one who writes them and I will keep my hands where they are, I mean who else is going to hold my gun?



I'll stop responding there because boring is how I find your posts!!

:confused:

GH

Correction, you find my posts confusing, but then you are still young and may eventually come across genuine kung fu tuition in the future.

All the best.:D

[Hardwork108]

......Worse than a troll. At least trolls are funny. :rolleyes:


LOL......good point!!!

GH

This is just too funny! LOL, just LOL!

[Hardwork108]

Hendrik believes he has more authority on martial arts if he only uses 中文

It has nothing to do with "authority", it is and has always been about genuine experience, knowlege and perspective regarding the TCMAs and as far as Hendrik is concerned, he has all of that more than most people in this forum PUT TOGETHER.
Sometimes try and understand what he is talking about and you may learn somthing and find yourself enlightened.

After all, on one level that is what such forums are for. ;)

[WC1277]

What is your point Hardwork108!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????

You're literally just arguing schematics that means absolutely nothing other than the good ol' stroke of the Ego....... doesn't sound very internal to this guy.......

[Hardwork108]

What is your point Hardwork108!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????
My point is simple. There is a design to the various styles of TCMA training. Once one decides to train a given style then one better make sure one finds a genuine sifu. Then one trains the style until one has some good understanding of that system before one decides to "improve" it or make clueless comments such as "there is no grappling in TCMAs"; "there is no take down defense in TCMAs";

On the other hand when one has not come across genuine TCMA tuition then he has to accept that, instead going into denial and saying that what he knows is authentic, to give credibility to his take on the so called short comings of TCMAs.

Remember, to really understand a major TCMA style takes mahy years of SERIOUS study, yet some of these characters, having studied in a mediocre school of a single style of kung fu, come here and make sweeping declarations about all TCMAs.




You're literally just arguing schematics that means absolutely nothing other than the good ol' stroke of the Ego....... doesn't sound very internal to this guy.......

I have nothing to be egostical about. I am simply a TCMA student and my experience has been with serious sifus, so I am calling it the way I am seeing it. :)

[WC1277]

Hardwork108,

First off, I'm sure everyone thinks they've learned from "serious" Sifus. There are more legitimate ones than others, don't get me wrong.

Second, even if a particular TCMA 'is' complete, there are going to be weaknesses within that system. Just because say there's a counter against a round house for instance, doesn't mean it's the most efficient way of doing or training it. I'm not advocating MMA by any means, just saying that when a system is "complete", so to speak, just means you can handle "most" situations somewhat effectively, but it would be ignorant to think you can handle all unless you were in some sort of Jet Li or Jackie Chan movie

[GlennR]

Of course I value his opinion (and so should you), but that does not change the fact that he is a TCMA teacher and hence his opinion as regards another sifu would be credible.

Im glad you value his opinion but ,once again, you value it ashe has the same approach as you. Youve just confirmed that again.



It feels right. I am stronger and more confident and have had a steady increase in my abilities.

Finally, an answer.


Furthermore, the best way to really measure your combat effectiveness is to put yourself in a situation where somebody is out to basically kill or maim you and most of us have lives to live where that kind of "testing" is counterproductive, so we stick to realistic class sparring, or as in the case of others, cross train to spar with other styles. Hey, whatever makes them happy. LOL


So your sparring consists of fellow classmates only?


Believe it or not, some TCMAs do address the ground scenario by fighting on the ground.

Other TCMAs address the ground by techniques designed to NOT go to the ground, or to get up as soon as possible if they are taken down. This may sound like rocket science to you, but there is not fantasy about it.

To prevent being taken down the fine tuned sensitivity and listening abilities will see the take down coming and will "hit first" (by the way, the quotation is a reference to a very well known TCMA concept). Of course, hitting first will do nothing to stop a takedown if one does not have the delivery base, including given body unity principles and training that will give one the SHOCK POWER, as seen in styles such as Chow Gar southern mantis. Wing Chun has its own version of short power, which is not as powerful as the Mantis one (IMHO).

You stated earlier that some TCMA's DONT have a defense against a take down.
My question stands.... what do they do then?



Of course, because there are no takedowns in TCMAs and there have never ever been wrestling arts in China. If anyone says otherwise, then he is lying. If anyone tells you that there are takedown techniques in the TCMAs, they are lying too. So the masters of old China never knew what takedowns were, that is why their kung fu "decendentes" will "cry" if someone tries to take them down with a judo or BJJ technique, whose origins can be traced,not to China, but to Shmucksville, Australia........:rolleyes:

And again... you were the one saying that there is no takedown defense in some TCMA's..... i merely commented on your statement
Oh, and that's Realisticville, Australia


On the contrary, I have stated clearly what I mean by "complete". All you have to do is read that post, a few times.

No, you just keep saying it... saying it over and over doesnt make it so


Where did I say that I am "complete"?:confused:

By sitting there at your PC, telling everyone how incomplete (in regards to their WC training) half the WC people in the world are, you must feel you come from a level of Authority.... in other words YOU are complete
Otherwise, you have no right to.



If you mean if I have gone out and had real fights (because that is the way that you will ulitibmately test any MA) with every other style on the planet, then NO!

OK, have you had ANY fights with any other MA.. ever??


However, it is evident that I have had better instruction and hence a better understanding of these principles than you.

Ummmmm..... no


By the way, have you studied this art properly and then gone on to test all of the principles in question, and failed??? LOL


Yes, constantly. Thats how i improve
Didnt Yip Man once famously say "go and try for yourself"??
Seriously..... do you? Outside your Kwoon?



I know what they won't use, if they have gone on to mix their art with irrelevant styles that may perhaps use diffent power mechanics.

Yet you mix 2 styles with different power generation?
Are you a better learner than everyone else?


It is really silly when you do not understand relatively simple concept of not mixing styles that may have contradictory principles and concepts, as regards things like rooting, relaxation/tension mechanics in relation to delivery of power, etc.

As per my above quote


Well, here is a news flash for you. WC and Chow Gar share a lot of common ground. You mean you didn't even guess that?:eek:

2 arms, 2 legs.......... its all the same in the end


It might just be called relevant cross training. ;) Actually, let me add that in a prefect world I would have finished the WC system and then gone on to increase my kung fu knowledge by studying other systems, however, I had to move and the only genuine kung fu school that I came across was the Chow gar one, and thank god for that, because the sifu in question opened my eyes to methodologies that most people can't even imagine that exist.

So you were going to finish WC and then go on to learn other KF styles.
Thats not the TCMA mantra that you push. The traditionalist you claim to be would adhere to one style as they feel they are never finished.
Or do you know better than YM, TST, WSL etc?



My personal testing has been within the confines of the kwoon. I have kung fu brothers who have tested outside and with success I might add.

Private fight club is it?


You will have to just face it that your idea of kung fu and its supposed shortcomings are limited to your experience and many others who have studied incompletely. So, in your case, any kind of cross training may be an improvement, even irrelevant ones.....

Everyone is limited by their experiences regardless of what endeavour they pursue. I and a lot of people on this forum recognise this, you choose to ignore that..... its a free world i guess



Don't know what you have done, but based on your own statements, I am pretty sure that you have NOT done any Internal practice. I mean you don't even believe they exist...LOL

Where did i say that?



We were not really discussing fighting, as such. We were discussing the often misunderstood discipline of TCMA(s), because of the fact that most people are exposed to them in an incomplete manner, leading to them making clueless conclusions and assumptions about their scope. So, far you are proving my point.;)

So its the journey and not the destination that concerns you most. Thats fine, and thats your choice, but some people are worried more about the result (destination) , whilst others wonder aimlessly..... lost



Actually, that is the sports fighting (so beloved in this forum) manifestation of TCMAs. If you know so much about Internals, then you would know that some of the subtlities are not visible to the unlooker. I don't even know what the core style of the Chinese fighter was, but I know that for sports fighting, his emphasis would have been more on the External.


Then why put it up as an example?


Having said that, you can see that the Chinese fighter looks more relaxed and fluid than his Japanese counterpart. These both qualities that are associated witht the internals. However, and again, in the sports arena, the skills gained from the relatively short term External methodolgies are more relevant.

So relaxed and fluid is internal? Floyd Mayweather must be mega-internal then

[anerlich]

So your sparring consists of fellow classmates only?

Yeah, but they're all either dead or maimed :rolleyes:

[Hendrik]

seriously, perhaps everyone could share what they means by Internal. I think if people get a real understanding on what is internal training as it is there will be no arguement.

it is just a communication issue. there is no real issue.

[GlennR]

seriously, perhaps everyone could share what they means by Internal. I think if people get a real understanding on what is internal training as it is there will be no arguement.

it is just a communication issue. there is no real issue.



Priceless from someone who just put up a post in Chinese

[Hendrik]

Priceless from someone who just put up a post in Chinese


one cannot avoid those chinese post because one needs to based everything solidly with evidence in Chinese classical.

[GlennR]

one cannot avoid those chinese post because one needs to based everything solidly with evidence in Chinese classical.



So unless you can speak/read chinese youll never get it hey??

Us poor gwailos wasting our time?

[Hendrik]

So unless you can speak/read chinese youll never get it hey??

Us poor gwailos wasting our time?



Those things needs to be make public so the westerner knows its present. then translation will come

without knowing those stuffs exist, it is real hopeless for the west to know what is going on.



evidentally 90% of what being said on internal training and Qi in the west is misleading due to it is too fuzzy.

[GlennR]

Those things needs to be make public so the westerner knows its present. then translation will come

without knowing those stuffs exist, it is real hopeless for the west to know what is going on.



evidentally 90% of what being said on internal training and Qi in the west is misleading due to it is too fuzzy.



See thats the thing.... after god knows how many years of "translation", the internalists/east cant prove anything. Not a thing.

Wheres the results?

[Hendrik]

See thats the thing.... after god knows how many years of "translation", the internalists/east cant prove anything. Not a thing.

Wheres the results?



you dont know the process. you cant train, you cant train, you dont get result. simple.


and no one owe anything to you, and no one needs to prove anything to you. it is great to keep you not knowing and blind. that is no interest to show you anything is the agenda of the business world. you pay for what you want. Thus, if you keep push away the facts you stuck and that is your own problem.

[GlennR]

you dont know the process. you cant train, you cant train, you dont get result. simple.


and no one owe anything to you, and no one needs to prove anything to you. it is great to keep you not knowing and blind. that is no interest to show you anything is the agenda of the business world. Thus, if you keep push away the facts you stuck and that is your own problem.



Keep your elitist lectures to yourself.
If you dont/cant explain the advantages of internal training, then dont tell people that your WC training will be lacking without it.

As you did in a previous post.

[Hendrik]

It has nothing to do with "authority", it is and has always been about genuine experience, knowlege and perspective regarding the TCMAs and as far as Hendrik is concerned, he has all of that more than most people in this forum PUT TOGETHER.
Sometimes try and understand what he is talking about and you may learn somthing and find yourself enlightened.

After all, on one level that is what such forums are for. ;)


Yup, that got nothing to do with authority but facts. not everyone's piece of cake.

[Hardwork108]

Im glad you value his opinion but ,once again, you value it ashe has the same approach as you. Youve just confirmed that again.

First of all, it has nothing to do with us having the "same approach". Spencer is a Wing Chun, read MARTIAL ARTS TEACHER. So just because his focal point is not getting in the ring and getting brain damage every other day, does not mean that he cannot recognize martial merit!

Secondly, how do you know if him and I have the same approach? Is it because we have 108 after our names....LOL!



Finally, an answer.

You should have known that answer before you had asked the question.;)




So your sparring consists of fellow classmates only?

Yes, but that is not valid sparring, because we use pillows as weapons, whereas the kickboxers in this forum use their deadly fists.:rolleyes:




You stated earlier that some TCMA's DONT have a defense against a take down.
My question stands.... what do they do then?

Where did I make that statement? All fighting arts should have a defense against the takedown. That is what fighting is all about, which is putting or taking someone down. LOL





And again... you were the one saying that there is no takedown defense in some TCMA's..... i merely commented on your statement
Oh, and that's Realisticville, Australia

You must have misread that OR may have not put my point down in a unclear manner.




No, you just keep saying it... saying it over and over doesnt make it so

It does not make it so for you as you have no point of reference. Major TCMA styles cover all ranges and they do so using Internal and External approaches. How Internal or Extranal will depend on the particular style and/or lineage.



By sitting there at your PC, telling everyone how incomplete (in regards to their WC training) half the WC people in the world are, you must feel you come from a level of Authority.... in other words YOU are complete

Unfortunately for you it is a lot more than the half of the WC world.

Also, would sitting on my keyboard and saying that half, or more of the world eat junk food, "tell" everyone that I am a gourmet chef?



Otherwise, you have no right to.

I have right, just like you to put down my observations in a kung fu forum. It is not rocket science, most people who think they are studying kung fu, are NOT doing so, they are learning half (read, incomplete) truths.

The Mcdojo phenomenon has something to do with this as well. ;)





OK, have you had ANY fights with any other MA.. ever??

No I have not. I study an authentic fighting art that was designed to adapt and destroy. I am not studying an incomplete art where I have to run along to search and fill in the gaps. Actually, I am taking about two arts. And if you find Wing Chun confusing, god knows what will happen to your sense of "TCMA knowledge" if I present you some Chow Gar concepts (which I won't!). LOL!




Ummmmm..... no

Ummmmmmmmmmmm, guess again!




Yes, constantly. Thats how i improve
Didnt Yip Man once famously say "go and try for yourself"??
Seriously..... do you? Outside your Kwoon?

Yip Man was right. The go and try should happen after you have understood the system, not because some "sifu" gives you a piece of paper saying that you have understood it. That way, you won't take every combat set back as black mark on your style or school, but perhaps as a black mark on your own TCMA abilities.... ;)




Yet you mix 2 styles with different power generation?
Are you a better learner than everyone else?

I explained to you what led to the situation of me "mixing" the styles. Furthermore and luckily, I had enough understanding of WC when I started Chow Gar, to not confuse the two too much. See, simple if you follow certain logical steps. Also, don't forget that the two styles overlap, not too much, but they have enough in common to not creat too man problems.





2 arms, 2 legs.......... its all the same in the end

Again,you are now showing a lack of a beyond the superficial understanding of both styles.

It is intersting that you say "2 arms and 2 legs........its all the same in the end", because that will raise the question to why you should cross train when the person you will be facing will always have two arms and two legs?

Why not stick to a profound style that covers all ranges of fighting? Well, I guess in most people's case is that they have not found a genuine sifu to teach them the profound art! That would be an honest and accpetable answer.




So you were going to finish WC and then go on to learn other KF styles.
Thats not the TCMA mantra that you push. The traditionalist you claim to be would adhere to one style as they feel they are never finished.
Or do you know better than YM, TST, WSL etc?

You misunderstand. You will never finish you kung fu studies but you can compete a style and understand its concepts and principles (in application). Each style you master will take you some steps further. Or you can stick to one style of kung fu and carry out your journey in that way.





Private fight club is it?

Not that private. We let the kickboxers in to clean the club afterwards...:D




Everyone is limited by their experiences regardless of what endeavour they pursue. I and a lot of people on this forum recognise this, you choose to ignore that..... its a free world i guess

I don't ignore my limitations, I am just pointing out the limitations of people who have not really trained any TCMA style validly, coming into forums such as this one and telling everyone about their opinions of the "interals", "forms practice", "IP" and others, in a negative manner.

To criticize the TCMAs one needs valid points of refenrece. The fact is that most people here in this forum, do not have that, no matter how good they are at fighting in the "ring" with their BJJ and MT techniques....

Please try to undertand what I am saying.





Where did i say that?

Here is one:


So tell me, what measurable results will this internal get you??

Why ask, if you know that they exist?

This is your answer to someone else's post:

So yes Wing Chun I think is one of the most direct simplest method to build your house. You will still need the guidence of one that can show how the tools need to be used or else you will always just being doing external Wing Chun.
Can you tell me someone that could teach me this?




Can you tell me someone that could teach me this?

YOu are trying to catch the guy out as regards a methodology that you don't think exists. Or is it that you have finally decided to study the Internals? LOL


So its the journey and not the destination that concerns you most. Thats fine, and thats your choice, but some people are worried more about the result (destination) , whilst others wonder aimlessly..... lost

You misunderstand AGAIN!

All journies have a destination. I am learning to fight using the TCMAs. You, well I don't don't about what it is that you are up to, but if mix it up in jumble and don't practice any system properly, then it is NOT kung fu! That does not say that you will be a bad fighter, etc, but it says that you cannot refer to what you do as a TCMA!





Then why put it up as an example?

You implied that I said that kung fu could not be used in the ring. So I brought you an example where it can, but it does lose a lot of its essence and richness within the restrictions of sports competitions.




So relaxed and fluid is internal? Floyd Mayweather must be mega-internal then

Just like the Internals overlap the externals, so do the externals that overlap the inbternals.....and you are still missing the point about Internal practice because, and AGAIN, you have no point of reference.

That is why it is always good to stick to what one does best, while careful not to mix up the names, like referring to a kickboxing methodology as TCMA.

[Hardwork108]

Yeah, but they're all either dead or maimed :rolleyes:

I have not yet reached the stage of controlling my immense power. So accidents happen...:D

[GlennR]

No I have not. I study an authentic fighting art that was designed to adapt and destroy. I am not studying an incomplete art where I have to run along to search and fill in the gaps. Actually, I am taking about two arts. And if you find Wing Chun confusing, god knows what will happen to your sense of "TCMA knowledge" if I present you some Chow Gar concepts (which I won't!). LOL!



Yes, thanks for saving me from more theoretical nonsense....

Enjoy your training, im sure it fits you just right

[Hardwork108]

Yes, thanks for saving me from more theoretical nonsense....

Enjoy your training, im sure it fits you just right

Thank you. I knew you would come around....:D

[Hardwork108]

Hardwork108,

First off, I'm sure everyone thinks they've learned from "serious" Sifus.
Well, therein lies the problem. Statistically speaking, the overall majority of kung fu schools (I am talking up to and over 95%) of kung fu schools do not teach the art in a complete manner, mainly because the "sifus" are not really qualified.

There are a few cases where the sifu in question is REAL, but is at the same time choosy as to whom he teaches the more obscure and important stuff. That is fair enough as well.

However, when you come to forums such as this one, then you will see many posters who see kung fu as lacking in combat effectiveness, but they rather blame the whole of the TCMAs, rather than admit that they have been had by their "sifus" or "kung fu" organizations! Hence the common clueless comments - "internals are fantasy", "kung fu is not effective for 'today's' world"; "Iron Skills are fantasy or irrelevant"; "chikung is just 'relaxation exercises"; "Zhan Zhuang training is for your legs and relaxation"; and other 'immortal' foot in the mouth, comments.

What do people do when they see that their core style is lacking? They cross traing. They say, no hook punches in WC, lets do some boxing; "no kicks" in Wing Chun (apparently), lets add Tae Kwon Do; lets do Muay Thai, that is a good one for "real" fighting, etc. etc.

You asked them why they are doing this, they say that Wing Chun needs to be "improved" for modern times.:rolleyes: So it is always the same case, a given kung fu style, or the whole of the TCMAs are lacking, but never the tuition that these people received!

Incidentally, when you get people who have had "great" experience in one style of kung fu, under a mediocre teacher, telling you that the whole of the TCMAs are lacking because they have not seen its "functionality" in sports tournaments, then you just have to seat back and role your eyes.....(:rolleyes:).



There are more legitimate ones than others, don't get me wrong.

IMHO, the legit schools are very, very rare!


Second, even if a particular TCMA 'is' complete, there are going to be weaknesses within that system. Just because say there's a counter against a round house for instance, doesn't mean it's the most efficient way of doing or training it.
The flip side of that argument is that some kung fu defensive and offensive techniques will not work if you have not acquired the correct body unity and short explosive power.

So what happens often is that "sifus" who have not got this ability teach the techniques that only function if you have it. So ultimately we end up with people who say such and such style is not practical for fighting because they see the techniques as impossible to perform successfully.

The issue we are discussing is very complex, to say the least.



I'm not advocating MMA by any means, just saying that when a system is "complete", so to speak, just means you can handle "most" situations somewhat effectively, but it would be ignorant to think you can handle all unless you were in some sort of Jet Li or Jackie Chan movie

Look, we live in a world where we are expected to believe that kung fu grandmasters who developed systems that are effective in most situations, "forgot" to consider the takedown and ground scenario, implying that a high school wrestler could take them down and pound them...lol

Yes, apparently in the old days in China, where wrestling arts were around even before the kung fu ones, no one ever attempted to take down a kung fu master, so they did not realize that these precautions were needed in kung fu styles, some of which date back more than a 1000 years.....

I would suggest to you and others here, not to believe the myths that are spread by the people who are not much more than kickboxers.

If you are lucky enough to study a major kung fu style under an authentic master, then you will not need the "fast food" cross training path, unless you are doing it to expand your knowledge, but only AFTER you have gained good understanding and abilities in your core style.

Personally, speaking I would increase my knowledge by going on to study other Kung Fu styles, because despite popular belief nowadays, all kung fu is not the same. They can be fascinatingly different, even when it comes to their Internals. So, not only the Internals do exist, but there are different types of approaches and concepts as regards things like body unity and power development. All fascinating stuff, and yes they work in fights, as that is why they were developed as martial arts! :)

[Graham H]

Correction, you find my posts confusing, but then you are still young and may eventually come across genuine kung fu tuition in the future.

All the best.:D

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo I can't wait!! :D:rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo I can't wait!! :D:rolleyes:

You know the old saying, "when the student is ready, then the teacher will appear". ;)

However, in your case, I am not holding my breath.:D

[Graham H]

You know the old saying, "when the student is ready, then the teacher will appear". ;)



It already happened mate.......after many teachers before possibly including your own!!! ;) :p

GH

[Hardwork108]

It already happened mate.......after many teachers before possibly including your own!!! ;) :p

GH

Well, go and get your money back. :p

[Graham H]

Well, go and get your money back. :p

Ok then I can come and be your student and the world be be free of BS!! :rolleyes: :D:p

GH

[HumbleWCGuy]

Internal means energy flows both directions, in and out, if only external bigger guy always win.
99.5% of people can only do energy in one direction, they are always expanding out. Running away or moving back is not doing energy in inward direction.

There are numerous examples of smaller guys winning for identifiable reasons: fitness, training, knowledge, athleticism, and technique to name a few. There is no need to bring in the unnecessary abstraction of Chi to explain why they win.

[Hardwork108]

Ok then I can come and be your student and the world be be free of BS!! :rolleyes: :D:p

GH

I am not a sifu.

If you want a world free of BS, then first change yourself enough so that you stop assuming that concepts and principles that you do not understand, must then be, "BS".....;)

[Hardwork108]

There are numerous examples of smaller guys winning for identifiable reasons: fitness, training, knowledge, athleticism, and technique to name a few. There is no need to bring in the unnecessary abstraction of Chi to explain why they win.

You make a valid point, but a smaller guy winning may be due to factors than "soft" winning over "hard", a concept that Internalists are taught from early on.

[HumbleWCGuy]

You make a valid point, but a smaller guy winning may be due to factors than "soft" winning over "hard", a concept that Internalists are taught from early on.

I think that it is a habit of all styles/schools to create a straw man that their techniques always work against. For an MMAist it is the 1980's points-fighting TMAist. For a long time the TMAist talked about defeating the boxer. I guess for an internalist it is a large, stiff fighter who relies upon brute force.

[Graham H]

I am not a sifu.

If you want a world free of BS, then first change yourself enough so that you stop assuming that concepts and principles that you do not understand, must then be, "BS".....;)

Well if you have no authority to teach what you say then why argue with somebody that has??? Weirdo! :rolleyes:

You can find my contact details on Philipp Bayers website just in case you want to pop in for a cuddle sometime!!!

GH

[GlennR]

I am not a sifu.

No way!
Really?

[k gledhill]

I think that it is a habit of all styles/schools to create a straw man that their techniques always work against. For an MMAist it is the 1980's points-fighting TMAist. For a long time the TMAist talked about defeating the boxer. I guess for an internalist it is a large, stiff fighter who relies upon brute force.

Good post. Like inventing situations that just happen to make us untouchable :D

reality is only a few steps outside the gym , utter your four letter word of choice at someone and see the results of your iron armor :D

[YiQuanOne]

Well if you have no authority to teach what you say then why argue with somebody that has??? Weirdo! :rolleyes:

You can find my contact details on Philipp Bayers website just in case you want to pop in for a cuddle sometime!!!

GH

Authority from who?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Good post. Like inventing situations that just happen to make us untouchable :D

reality is only a few steps outside the gym , utter your four letter word of choice at someone and see the results of your iron armor :D

I wish that all schools would get it in their head that they are training to fight the best opponent. We all have that bag of tricks that can help us situationally, but defeating the stiff Karateka, the pure boxer, or the big doofus can't be the focus of anyone's training.

[YiQuanOne]

Well, therein lies the problem. Statistically speaking, the overall majority of kung fu schools (I am talking up to and over 95%) of kung fu schools do not teach the art in a complete manner, mainly because the "sifus" are not really qualified.

There are a few cases where the sifu in question is REAL, but is at the same time choosy as to whom he teaches the more obscure and important stuff. That is fair enough as well.

However, when you come to forums such as this one, then you will see many posters who see kung fu as lacking in combat effectiveness, but they rather blame the whole of the TCMAs, rather than admit that they have been had by their "sifus" or "kung fu" organizations! Hence the common clueless comments - "internals are fantasy", "kung fu is not effective for 'today's' world"; "Iron Skills are fantasy or irrelevant"; "chikung is just 'relaxation exercises"; "Zhan Zhuang training is for your legs and relaxation"; and other 'immortal' foot in the mouth, comments.

What do people do when they see that their core style is lacking? They cross traing. They say, no hook punches in WC, lets do some boxing; "no kicks" in Wing Chun (apparently), lets add Tae Kwon Do; lets do Muay Thai, that is a good one for "real" fighting, etc. etc.

You asked them why they are doing this, they say that Wing Chun needs to be "improved" for modern times.:rolleyes: So it is always the same case, a given kung fu style, or the whole of the TCMAs are lacking, but never the tuition that these people received!

Incidentally, when you get people who have had "great" experience in one style of kung fu, under a mediocre teacher, telling you that the whole of the TCMAs are lacking because they have not seen its "functionality" in sports tournaments, then you just have to seat back and role your eyes.....(:rolleyes:).




IMHO, the legit schools are very, very rare!


The flip side of that argument is that some kung fu defensive and offensive techniques will not work if you have not acquired the correct body unity and short explosive power.

So what happens often is that "sifus" who have not got this ability teach the techniques that only function if you have it. So ultimately we end up with people who say such and such style is not practical for fighting because they see the techniques as impossible to perform successfully.

The issue we are discussing is very complex, to say the least.




Look, we live in a world where we are expected to believe that kung fu grandmasters who developed systems that are effective in most situations, "forgot" to consider the takedown and ground scenario, implying that a high school wrestler could take them down and pound them...lol

Yes, apparently in the old days in China, where wrestling arts were around even before the kung fu ones, no one ever attempted to take down a kung fu master, so they did not realize that these precautions were needed in kung fu styles, some of which date back more than a 1000 years.....

I would suggest to you and others here, not to believe the myths that are spread by the people who are not much more than kickboxers.

If you are lucky enough to study a major kung fu style under an authentic master, then you will not need the "fast food" cross training path, unless you are doing it to expand your knowledge, but only AFTER you have gained good understanding and abilities in your core style.

Personally, speaking I would increase my knowledge by going on to study other Kung Fu styles, because despite popular belief nowadays, all kung fu is not the same. They can be fascinatingly different, even when it comes to their Internals. So, not only the Internals do exist, but there are different types of approaches and concepts as regards things like body unity and power development. All fascinating stuff, and yes they work in fights, as that is why they were developed as martial arts! :)


Well put!.

[Hardwork108]

Well if you have no authority to teach what you say then why argue with somebody that has??? Weirdo! :rolleyes:

Because the world (including this forum) is full of people who have "authority" to teach kung fu. That is one of the problems I keep referring to, one way or the other. Your "authority" means nothing, when what you teach is not authentic kung fu.


You can find my contact details on Philipp Bayers website just in case you want to pop in for a cuddle sometime!!!

GH

The world is also full of people with "kung fu contact details"........I mean how else are they going to get "customers"?

Yes, I have also seen you "Wing Chun" training video in one of the threads here.......no comment!

[Hardwork108]

Authority from who?

YiQuanOne,

Apparently, nowadays there are many kickboxing organizations that give "kung fu" teaching credentials. ;)

[Hardwork108]

No way!
Really?

Really. I see that you are surprised that we both have at least that aspect in common.

[Hardwork108]

I think that it is a habit of all styles/schools to create a straw man that their techniques always work against. For an MMAist it is the 1980's points-fighting TMAist. For a long time the TMAist talked about defeating the boxer. I guess for an internalist it is a large, stiff fighter who relies upon brute force.

That is where many misunderstand the Internals. As long as you are "softer" and more "sensitive" than you opponent, then he is the one who loses for being stiff, even if he happens to be a fellow Internalist.

That is how it works - "soft" will win against "hard" - and this fact should indicate the levels of fine tuned softness and sensitivity that one aims to achieve (not to mention deeper body unity faculties), which goes far beyond the purely chi sao type sensitivity that many Franchise School Wing Chun practitioners are familiar with.

[GlennR]

That is where many misunderstand the Internals. As long as you are "softer" and more "sensitive" than you opponent, then he is the one who loses for being stiff, even if he happens to be a fellow Internalist.

That is how it works - "soft" will win against "hard" - and this fact should indicate the levels of fine tuned softness and sensitivity that one aims to achieve (not to mention deeper body unity faculties), which goes far beyond the purely chi sao type sensitivity that many Franchise School Wing Chun practitioners are familiar with.


Youve never had a fight in your life have you??

[Hardwork108]

Youve never had a fight in your life have you??

You have never actually practiced Kung Fu, have you???

[GlennR]

You have never actually practiced Kung Fu, have you???


Answer a simple question........

[Hardwork108]

Answer a simple question........

Your answer is, yes. Most people have had fights in their lifes, that includes kung fu practioners as well. ;)

Don't bother answering my question, as I know the answer already.

[GlennR]

Your answer is, yes. Most people have had fights in their lifes, that includes kung fu practioners as well. ;)

Don't bother answering my question, as I know the answer already.



Since you started WC?
Or previous

[Hardwork108]

Since you started WC?
Or previous

Both, but to be honest, I had more fights before. I believe the reason might have something to do with the confidence that comes from MA training which discourages a lot of people from picking on you.

Would you like to know what I had for breakfast, as well?

The fact of the matter is that I am being honest with you, but anyone can come here and say that they have had zillions of street fights using whatever MA that they practice and there is no way to prove things either way. That is why I always attempt to limit my conversations to kung fu practice as regards concepts, principles and techniques, whose knowledge one cannot fake as easily as inventing a "fighting history"!

By the way, there are no Youtube videos of my fights, just incase that was your next question....:rolleyes:

[GlennR]

Both, but to be honest, I had more fights before. I believe the reason might have something to do with the confidence that comes from MA training which discourages a lot of people from picking on you.

Would you like to know what I had for breakfast, as well?

The fact of the matter is that I am being honest with you, but anyone can come here and say that they have had zillions of street fights using whatever MA that they practice and there is no way to prove things either way. That is why I always attempt to limit my conversations to kung fu practice as regards concepts, principles and techniques, whose knowledge one cannot fake as easily as inventing a "fighting history"!

By the way, there are no Youtube videos of my fights, just incase that was your next question....:rolleyes:

If you dont like being asked questions, dont get on a forum.

And just beacuse someone asks a simple and valid question, do you feel you need to be smart with "rolling eys" and reference to youtube clips.

[shaolin_allan]

wow this thread has moved off track like every wc thread so far. i had left wc at one point after 8 months believing that northern styles for the most part (believing incorrectly) that the internal arts like xing yi or tai chi had more health benefits to improve my muscle and nerve problems. it was only after I had left I realized that even the first wc form SLT had an amazing amount of qi gong I just was blind to that fact I think even though my sifu told me. It goes to show we should trust in what our sifus say and not only think its because theyre just trying to keep us as students.

[Hardwork108]

If you dont like being asked questions, dont get on a forum.
Again, your question was irrelevant, as I have answered you and you are none the wiser regarding authentic TCMA practice that includes a balance between the External and the Internal and its relevance to combat effectiveness!


And just beacuse someone asks a simple and valid question, do you feel you need to be smart with "rolling eys" and reference to youtube clips.
The question may have been simple, but it was not valid, when we are discussing TCMA methodologies, to which most of the "kung fu tagged" kickboxers who post here, do not have a reference point.

[Graham H]

Yes, I have also seen you "Wing Chun" training video in one of the threads here.......no comment!

Feel free to comment on YouTube with the rest of the negative comments!

[GlennR]

Again, your question was irrelevant, as I have answered you and you are none the wiser regarding authentic TCMA practice that includes a balance between the External and the Internal and its relevance to combat effectiveness!


The question may have been simple, but it was not valid, when we are discussing TCMA methodologies, to which most of the "kung fu tagged" kickboxers who post here, do not have a reference point.


Actually , in hindsight, the question was pointless, as you have no concept of effective combat.... internal, external, chinese or even whatever nationality you are.

You are the consumate martial masturabation expert..... you keep playing with yourself chum

[Hardwork108]

Actually , in hindsight, the question was pointless, as you have no concept of effective combat.... internal, external, chinese or even whatever nationality you are.

Another knee-jerk reaction to hide your lack of genuine TCMA knowledge.

Even so, let me say that that most people who post here probably have a "concept" of fighting and even many of them can probably fight. My issue is that most of them cannot apply TCMA techniques and concepts to combat, and the problem is with THEM and NOT with the TCMAs!!!!!


You are the consumate martial masturabation expert..... you keep playing with yourself chum

Well, so far in this thread, I have been "playing" with the kickboxers. ;)

[Hardwork108]

Feel free to comment on YouTube with the rest of the negative comments!

I have not seen the comments you speak of, because I have not looked. I have just watched the clip. I did not even comment on You Tube, nor here in the particular thread, because I know that it would have "passed you by".

So there was no point in saying anything. However, now that we are on the subject I can just give you a hint and that is, no matter how good your technique is and how fast you are. If you do not have proper kung fu rooting, then you have no kung fu. As always, this does not mean that you can't fight. It just means that you cannot do so using genuine TCMA methodology.

However, I would advise you to distinguish between comments that are constructive criticisms, as opposed to comments that are just negative for the sake of negative, or do you see all criticisms as negative as well?

[Graham H]

I have not seen the comments you speak of, because I have not looked. I have just watched the clip. I did not even comment on You Tube, nor here in the particular thread, because I know that it would have "passed you by".

So there was no point in saying anything. However, now that we are on the subject I can just give you a hint and that is, no matter how good your technique is and how fast you are. If you do not have proper kung fu rooting, then you have no kung fu. As always, this does not mean that you can't fight. It just means that you cannot do so using genuine TCMA methodology.

However, I would advise you to distinguish between comments that are constructive criticisms, as opposed to comments that are just negative for the sake of negative, or do you see all criticisms as negative as well?

If I didnt like negative comments then that clip would not have been posted.

You talk about "kung fu" rooting????? I think you are full of s**t! If kung fu rooting was so effective then boxers and MMA fighters would be using it. Stuck to the floor with mechanical movements as taught in most VT school is BS!! When somebody is trying to land strikes on you then you have to be agile and mobile.

I don't think you have been in a real fight before mate. You live in kung fu dreamland along with a lot of people on this forum. Ving Tsun is about fighting. Fortuneately for me it has got me through many scrapes. No amount of talking and writing can prepare you for that!! It's a shame we live so far apart. I would have no problem in putting my money where my mouth is! ;)

GH

[YiQuanOne]

If I didnt like negative comments then that clip would not have been posted.

You talk about "kung fu" rooting????? I think you are full of s**t! If kung fu rooting was so effective then boxers and MMA fighters would be using it. Stuck to the floor with mechanical movements as taught in most VT school is BS!! When somebody is trying to land strikes on you then you have to be agile and mobile.

I don't think you have been in a real fight before mate. You live in kung fu dreamland along with a lot of people on this forum. Ving Tsun is about fighting. Fortuneately for me it has got me through many scrapes. No amount of talking and writing can prepare you for that!! It's a shame we live so far apart. I would have no problem in putting my money where my mouth is! ;)

GH

Dude, Hardwork108 is trying help you by telling you to pull your head out of the sand!

If MA's is just mechanical movements then genetics will dominate. You will only then be able to beat somebody weaker than you.

Mechanical movement is fine, but it is only a muscle driven motor, their is another motor that is powered by the "Yi mind", and this motor will put the muscle motor on the back burner.

Everyone that is telling you these things also went through the muscle motor stage, but it is not the only stage.

[Graham H]

Dude, Hardwork108 is trying help you by telling you to pull your head out of the sand!

If MA's is just mechanical movements then genetics will dominate. You will only then be able to beat somebody weaker than you.

Mechanical movement is fine, but it is only a muscle driven motor, their is another motor that is powered by the "Yi mind", and this motor will put the muscle motor on the back burner.

Everyone that is telling you these things also went through the muscle motor stage, but it is not the only stage.

Help me??? Get real will you!! If that was all the help that was around I would be playing football instead of kung fu!!! lol

GH

[Sean66]

Stability vs. mobility, strength vs. flexibility, speed vs. slowness....
It's just not realistic to present these qualities as diametrically opposed when speaking about human movement. All movement is a combination of these (and other) factors.

Martial arts training has to help us develop these things in specific ways according to the style, and teach us how to use them judiciously.

A fight is a dynamic situation. The trick is to know in which moment you need stability, and in which mobility. Or perhaps a combination of both at the same time?
For a good shoulder-throw, for example, you'll need the timing and speed to set it up and the stability and flexibility to pull it off.

Fighting a stronger opponent you might need to keep more mobile and flexible, waiting your chance to use angles and leverage against him. Against a weaker one, you can use your strength to run him down.
If you are not able to change according to the situation and the opponent, well, you're making life hard for yourself.

"Kung fu rooting" exercises are not ends unto themselves. Standing post exercises, for example, help in developing the "connectedness" necessary for whole body movement, but their purpose is not to teach us to stay "rooted" to one spot. We perform siu im tao while remaining in the same position in order to reinforce the connection between the hips and shoulders and train the mechanics of the elbow used in directing the lines of force, etc....but we don't just stand there in YJKYM during a fight!

Regarding internal and external: Again, I would say that all movement has both internal and external components. The boxer hitting the heavy bag just doesn't hit it blindly, without thinking....he is hitting it in a specific, learned way, with very specific ideas behind how he executes the movement.

When you do fook sau, what are you thinking about? Are you thinking about covering your training partner's hand with your wrist and forearm in order to control it? Or are your thinking of driving your elbow toward his center? Like Phiipp Bayer stated in the article posted by Kevin, "what you are thinking of while doing the form (SLT) is important."

Intention influences the external form. Nothing magic or esoteric about it. Top athletes and dancers have known for years about the importance of using visualization techniques and meditation to improve their performance.

[YiQuanOne]

It is help in the context of to keep your mind open and keep looking and researching.

[GlennR]

Dude, Hardwork108 is trying help you by telling you to pull your head out of the sand!

If MA's is just mechanical movements then genetics will dominate. You will only then be able to beat somebody weaker than you.

Mechanical movement is fine, but it is only a muscle driven motor, their is another motor that is powered by the "Yi mind", and this motor will put the muscle motor on the back burner.

Everyone that is telling you these things also went through the muscle motor stage, but it is not the only stage.



It IS Mechanical movements..... thats it!

If there was something more, some hidden internal seceret, dont you think all the Pro fighters in would be trying to use it? They would be looking for any advantage they could...... but they dont as its delusional nonsense

[GlennR]

Regarding internal and external: Again, I would say that all movement has both internal and external components. The boxer hitting the heavy bag just doesn't hit it blindly, without thinking....he is hitting it in a specific, learned way, with very specific ideas behind how he executes the movement.


Good post Sean.
Ok, in regards to a correct boxers punch, tell me what are the external attributes and the internal attributes used.

[anerlich]

Good post Sean.
Ok, in regards to a correct boxers punch, tell me what are the external attributes and the internal attributes used.

Glenn,

good Q, but it does require a definition of what delineates the two, and on that opinions vary. wildly.

[YiQuanOne]

It IS Mechanical movements..... thats it!

If there was something more, some hidden internal seceret, dont you think all the Pro fighters in would be trying to use it? They would be looking for any advantage they could...... but they dont as its delusional nonsense

NO, because the training is opposite of external training, and they would not be able to use it until they developed it. Putting boxing gloves on also masks the application.

External strength training will need to be sidelined until you develop the core, then you can train the exterior strength after you get the internal core.

Most people at a young age also don't have the disipline or patience to do the training needed to get the internal core, it also takes many years, and then their window for doing duration events will be past, and they will be wiser by then and will probably not want to compete anyway.

It is not a muscle memory exercise.

[anerlich]

If MA's is just mechanical movements then genetics will dominate.

ALL movements are mechanical.

Genetics only provides a head start. Effective use of skill, strength, and power (internal and external) depend on training and development.

Your argument doesn't fly anyway. If genetics were the primary determinant of effective mechanical movement, why wouldn't it also be the primary determinant of the ability to use "internal power"?

Why is it "force against force, and the strongest wins"and never "ïnternal power against internal power, and so the strongest wins"?"Why is one form of power subject to genetics and physical laws and the other not?


You will only then be able to beat somebody weaker than you.

Not so. Intelligent use of leverage can overcome superior strength less well applied. A purely MECHANICAL concept.


Putting boxing gloves on also masks the application.

OH, rubbish. I suppose you think boxers and HW107.5's glorified kickboxers can't fight bareknuckle?

You need to stop parroting all the crap you read on the net and do some critical thinking. Maybe test out this internal bull**** you've been sold. Take your own advice:


It is help in the context of to keep your mind open and keep looking and researching.

Make sure you have medical insurance first, though.

[GlennR]

External strength training will need to be sidelined until you develop the core, then you can train the exterior strength after you get the internal core.

So you cant be a "fit" internalists??


Most people at a young age also don't have the disipline or patience to do the training needed to get the internal core, it also takes many years, and then their window for doing duration events will be past, and they will be wiser by then and will probably not want to compete anyway.


Thats convenient for your POV

[GlennR]

Not so. Intelligent use of leverage can overcome superior strength less well applied. A purely MECHANICAL concept.

You need to stop parroting all the rubbish you read on the net and do some critical thinking.


Nicely put Andrew.
Shame is, he's not only parroting what he has read, its probably the same where he trains

[YiQuanOne]

So you cant be a "fit" internalists??

Internal will make and keep you healther than external fitness, you still mantain muscle just don't over task them which keeps them from relaxing.



Thats convenient for your POV

That's the way it works. Lifting weights is like damming up energy flow. It creates pools or segments that are not connected. You keep the energy in you and that is why you feel strong, but the energy does not reach your opponent.