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BeiKongHui
05-03-2001, 07:20 PM
I'm curious to know how you guys deal with a good tight hook punch such as one a western boxer might throw?

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

Martial Joe
05-03-2001, 09:40 PM
You have to move in and use your body.You cant just throw your arm out or he will hit you in the face.

BeiKongHui
05-03-2001, 10:20 PM
MJ- I doubt I could move in before a good boxer would tag me. What I do is a Fook Sao...if I can explain it...the same arm shape as a bong sao but with your palm down & fingers pointed like you're poking someone in the eyes who might be standing to the side. I whip it into the hook hard and fast so that the contact is on the inside of the wrist say around the area you'd buckle a watch band. It works well even against extremely hard punches but it's meeting force with force. Hope you can see what I'm trying to illustrate it's hard to describe.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

OdderMensch
05-04-2001, 02:11 AM
heh

anyway ive been taught to meet hooks in the same manner, with a fuk sau to the hooking arm. it may be meeting with force but then the stance comes into play. All that hooking energy goes from the fuk, to my stance then back up into the punch that the other hand is throwing. use a "stance turn" and its all gravy.

Martial Joe
05-04-2001, 03:39 AM
Bei,have you ever done this yourself?

mun hung
05-04-2001, 09:15 PM
Favorites would be tan-da and pak-da.

nickle
05-05-2001, 08:52 PM
i think you guys are missing the point, its a tight hook he's talking about. ie one where the elbow is bent almost 90 degrees. maybe im being ignorant, if so sorry, but i dont get how you can use a fook on that,,, or a tan da for that matter. or come in close and let the hook slide round the back of your head.

personally id either back away, duck or put my elbow up like in fight club...i think thats a pretty good way to stop a tight hook...even though it hurts like hell.

-specialization is for ants-

Watchman
05-05-2001, 10:11 PM
Boxers/good punchers usually throw those tight hooks you're talking about from a clinch. When "at range", they'll usually set up with jab/cross combos, so you won't normally find a boxer jumping in at you with a tight hook -- there are better ways to turn your face into hamburger while they are probing forward across the gap.

To land a tight hook with power, like you are describing, means the opponent is trying to tear your head off from a clinch/clinching range.

If he's that close, you don't have the space to tan da, or the time/positiong to pak da. To throw a tight hook from a clinch, he's going to drop the punching shoulder and open a slight space.

IMHO, the best thing to do is shoot your forearm forward in a sat sau/fak sau movement into the side of his neck while you simultaneously bring an upward elbow into position that will double as a wu sau at that range to cover yourself. (If he's hooking with his right arm, shoot your right forearm foward while you bring up your left elbow.)

You are going to find more efficiency and power if you don't try to "block" the punch, but tear into his operational balance structure. If you go for a "block" he'll just try and hit you with the other hand, and you'll be in a speed war (which is fine if you're the quickest guy on the block, but for sloths like myself - we've got to find a better way).

A sat sau (Executing Hand) shot to the neck area as he tries to land his punch will tear him backwards off of his balance base, retard the power in his strike, and seal him off from launching potential follow-up punches.

Once you nail him with the forearm, immediately bring your elbow over in a kup jarn movement to split the side of his face open, then blast away with chain punches.

The name of the game is this type of fighting is FOLLOW-UP. Bring that kup jarn in as soon as you nail him with the sat sau, then start blasting away with everything available.

These movements for "clinch fighting" are found in the first section of Biu Tze. Nasty stuff. :D

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Sunt hic etiam sua praemia laveli
"Here too virtue has its due reward."

[This message was edited by Watchman on 05-06-01 at 01:19 PM.]

BeiKongHui
05-05-2001, 11:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Bei,have you ever done this yourself? [/quote]

MJ-Yes, I have and it does work even against stronger & larger opponents but it hurts like hell! :) I'm hoping to find a more efficient and painless way to do it though.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

Martial Joe
05-06-2001, 02:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>personally id either back away, duck or put my elbow up like in fight club [/quote]

Nickle...Are you sure your a Wing Chun guy.

Bei-Well ill take your word for it but i saw wong shun leung do what i was talking about.It worked without the pain...

popsider
05-06-2001, 09:08 PM
Martial Joe,

Can you expand on what you mean by move in and use your body?

nickle
05-06-2001, 11:58 PM
yeah martial, im sure... i know that that isnt the most orthodox wing chun stuff in the world :) but remember that i am only a beginner.

:)

just trying to offer my 2 cents.

maybe when i do the next 2 forms ill know what to do against a tight hook. a longer range hook is much easier.

-specialization is for ants-

mun hung
05-07-2001, 12:28 AM
BeiKongHui - the arm positioning that you've mentioned does'nt sound like a fook sau. It sounds more like a lan sau. Using the lan sau can be rather dangerous also since the hook can come in at any height and not just to the face. Lan sau does'nt cover enough area - unless of course, you're really good.

I have to agree a little with MJ about moving in and using the body. Whipping down the tan sau from the bong sau position in tan da as you move in and punch works for me. The elbow from bong sau protects you to a certain extent until it turns to tan. The tan sau has to come down hard and with enough force in order for it to prevent the hook from coming in.

watchman - I know what you mean by clinching range, but IMHO you should not find yourself in that range unless you are prepared to deal with that tight hook in the first place.

Watchman
05-07-2001, 12:43 AM
>>>>>watchman - I know what you mean by clinching range, but IMHO you should not find yourself in that range unless you are prepared to deal with that tight hook in the first place.<<<<<

I agree with you on that one. In fact, my philosophy is: don't get clinched. Tight hooks from a good puncher are dangerous.

The hook that was being discussed (arm bent at 90 degrees) isn't going to happen unless the guy is already in clinching range, or is in the process of moving into the clinch -- meaning he's in real close, or he's trying to get real close. With this in mind, and taking into account that if he has any punching power at all, then he'll have some serious momentum behind him. Normally, if they're coming in hard and fast from that close you don't really have the time or space to perform a textbook tan da or pak da to prevent from having your brains spill out of your ears.

IMHO, don't chase the punch. Use your simultaneous movement (with a forearm and elbow)and the space being opened by the hook to attack his body structure (where his power is coming from anyway).

Of course, the response always depends on the particular circumstances. If he's a dolt trying to throw a hook from outside of your bridge, just shift your hips to give you some arm extension and shove his teeth down his throat.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Sunt hic etiam sua praemia laveli
"Here too virtue has its due reward."

panos
05-07-2001, 08:40 AM
Maybe what i'll suggest is already been said but i am not yet familiar with all chinese terms. How about trying to use a pak sao on his bicep. It is kind of an unusual tactic but it works. You can either use to control his punch and avoid it since it less powerfull if catch it back there or you can pack hard on his bicep and hurt his arm. It is of course a very close distance technique but a hook punch is one also.

BeiKongHui
05-07-2001, 03:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> BeiKongHui - the arm positioning that you've mentioned does'nt sound like a fook sau. It sounds more like a lan sau. [/quote]

No, not a Lan Sau as that would not protect you from a shot coming from the outside -to the ear for example. The method I described is a Fook Sau and can block the hook if it's to the head or you can lower the arm to cover the ribs. It also doesn't require stepping in since a boxer will either already be in real close or will tag you with a jab as soon as you step in. Also the Taan Sao works against wild roundhouses and the like but not against a skilled fighter, they'll cut right around it. I also find that the option to step into or around is often not there as boxers are very fast on their feet and often will not allow you enough time and space for complex techniques.

Watchman- I see your point and believe it would work against a more stationary opponent like another WC person but what if the boxer is bobbing and weaving? Could I still expect similar results? Also, I totally agree with your statement on pak da & taan da I learned that the hard way! ;)

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

Watchman
05-07-2001, 06:31 PM
Panangiotis: with the hooks we're talking about, trying to pak the bicep will only get you hit. The opponent's arm is bent at the elbow and coming in at you in tight circle.

Plus, trying to pak by crossing your body like that removes your ability to simultaneously strike with the other hand. And, if you've got your hand stuck over on the other side of your body your face is left wide open for his quick follow up strike (boxers NEVER just throw one punch, it's all done in combination).

To give yourself an idea of how close this strike is coming at you - hold your arm up in front of you, bending your elbow a bit more than 45 degrees. See how close you have to be to hit anything with power? You're just about at kissing range with the opponent. :eek:

In that kind of dynamic, there's no way a pak sau is going to stop the punch, and you don't have the room to use tan sau effectively. Like BeiKongHui said, the punch will just snake around your arm.

Also, good boxers aren't going to stand still in front of you to throw the punch. Good hooks are delivered with a shift of the hips so they can power off of their legs and shoot the punch in on an off-angle (about 45 degrees to you). You've got to have good centerline control and follow his body movement.

BeiKongHui: It should work if he's bobbing and weaving IF you are fluid with your footwork. You don't want to stand still and trust your hands to catch everything coming in. Depending on how close he is and much power he's got coming in - I would use the same move you're describing (fak sau? biu sau?) if I'm not clinched. If I'm clinched, I'll use an upward elbow to guard my head, or he goes for the ribs, I'll drop my elbow down in a tan/chamber position.

I still say you HAVE to simultaneously nail him with a free limb to shut off his intended combo. That is also something I learned the hard way.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Sunt hic etiam sua praemia laveli
"Here too virtue has its due reward."

Martial Joe
05-07-2001, 07:59 PM
Nickle-I wasnt trying to offend you.You didnt seem offended anyway...

Popsider-I ment....what i said,its very easy to understand.You move on the inside and use your body to use a tan that will hold and a punch with the other hand.then you could follow up by a pak to their hook hand with the hand you punched him with and then hit him with the hand you stopped him with.If the fight lasted that long anyway.But you should follow up anyway just incase.

You know there are many different ways.This is just an easy one that works.If done corectly.

greedy
05-08-2001, 08:26 AM
This ain't an easy question. Basically, the whole situation hinges on whether it is a hook thrown by a competent fighter, or a wild one thrown by a half assed wannabe.

Against the 'real' boxer, any reaction that requires any thought or is more than an instantaneous reaction is going to be too slow. A good boxer will not telegraph his actions and the strike will be too fast to simply react to. He will probably have good footwork, and so simply applying forward pressure won't work.

I just try to not be there when the hook happens. The average boxer will lead it with a jab or fake, and so footwork can enable you to put your body into a position where the hook cannot be thrown economically.

Go to a good, friendly gym, and test the different techniques against a real boxer. It will be good for your wing chun techniques to test it against someone who punches differently to the ordinary wing chun man.

Good Luck.

Cheers

mun hung
05-08-2001, 07:29 PM
I have to agree with young Joe on this one. I believe if timed correctly with the proper footwork, both tan and pak still work - even with a tight hook. It all depends on how it's applied. I agree that not all tan da and pak da will work, but then again how are you applying them? And at what angle? Are you the one closing the distance or the boxer? Are you fighting offensively or defensively? It makes all the difference in the world. IMHO, in a fight it all boils down to a couple of things - skill and opportunity. And that goes both ways.

I just sparred with a boxer on Monday. I can honestly say that he could'nt get close enough to throw me one of those tight hooks because I never gave him the opportunity. I found that whenever he charged in with a flurry of punches - all I had to do was cover, take a step or two back to suck him in a little to get him comfortable enough to follow me in before stepping right back in to punch or/and kick him. Whenever we were in clinching distance - it was under my conditions and not his. We did this for about 15 minutes, and after his frustration and a bloody nose (oops!) we decided to quit.

I still don't understand what people have against sparring. Not only is it fun, but you learn alot from it. Just my humble opinion.

:)

WCFish
05-10-2001, 02:00 AM
Tan/punch combo may work, but if you can dig up a copy of Mike Tyson knocking out Trevor Burbick, (not sure if I spelt that right), you will see a classic example of how a boxer with quick feet and a tight left hook would render your pak sau vertually useless.

WongFeHung
05-18-2001, 05:00 PM
That hook does not have to be thrown from a clinch- you can jab,shuffling in, and hook off the jab(jow-sao) while twisting the body to develop sick power. I would either jam the shoulder, or raise my elbow to either guard the side of my head, and, if my motion was foward, the elbow smashes directly into the opponent/s face. I can also use the other elbow and strike laterally into the head as well.

peehoo
05-20-2001, 12:33 AM
We learn to throw hooks because wc does have a problem dealing with them (i'm not slagging wc because we use a lot of the techs in our style).
a well trained practitioner can easily stop a wild swing hook.The tight hook (hand drops elbow comes up punch comes through), causes all sorts of problems. 1 its bloody quick
2 If your trained to use it you wont use the jab, cross, hook, comb cause its so bloody obvious
3 although its not traveling far if the hips are used it can generate a lot of power

The only way i know of dealing with them is to bring you elbow up, put you hand behind your head and take the punch on the bicep.(don t stop it with a stuck out elbow it will push your arm across face and open you up)
My sifu then recomends bring the same arm down on to the shoulder trapping the hooking arm outside yours, and seeing that theyve see the distance for a good hook throw on back with your other arm.

do without doing

lotusleaf
07-23-2001, 12:38 AM
If the opponent is not clinching but just throwing a nice decent hook, arm is not at 90degrees), I'd personally just slip outside of his hooking arm, step in low, and fire a counter punch to the groin, and finish him off with a straight blast to the face and chest.

Watchman
07-23-2001, 04:11 AM
If you want to see the kind of hook we're talking about go to: http://www.fighttraining.com/, click on "Video Techniques", scroll down to the half-way point on the frame and download the "Basic Hook Punch" clip.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

One is weak because he makes preparation against others;
he has strength because he makes others prepare against him.
-- Sun-Tzu

EmptyCup
07-25-2001, 01:06 AM
My high school had tons of hockey players and in fights all they did was grab with one arm (usually the left) and use a barrage of tight hooks with the other hand (usually the right)

There are no combinations to "set-up" and the arm's angle is 90 degrees.

I doubt a pak or tan would do any good. They never worked for me against them. Biu is the best bet when you have some distance, however when really close, you have no choice but to use pow sau. Either way, you must move your head back when blocking because you hand might not block one fully. And stance shifting is a must.

There's another post here that deals with this in detail as well...

Sharky
09-06-2001, 10:45 PM
http://www.kamonwingchun.com/images/Pai%20Jarn%201.jpg

pai jarn? is that the move you were trying to describe bkh?

i went looking for this post cos i got my friend round and asked him to throw some haymakers, and i figured out myself that tan da doesn't work - sometimes it even helps them.

all i could do is either break teh rules of wc and stick an arm out (john wayne style, you know?) or attack is centre and hold out a firm tan.

obviously i could move in, as he was telgraphing when he was gonna throw the hook, he wasn't a trained boxer, but it was a slap in teh face (nearly literally) how a hook/haymaker *ISN'T* as easy to deal with as i thought.

If you guys want to carry this post on, i ain't gonna stop ya :)

"Spectacular immaculate raps massacre cats like dracula bats, I'm snappin yer back cos I'm attackin the wack, duckin yer rapid attack, **** packin a gat, the mechanic of rap'll give you panic attacks with his Satanical raps." - Guess who.

Anarcho
09-06-2001, 10:55 PM
Did you try bil sao, Sharky?

Sharky
09-07-2001, 03:59 PM
do u mean bil sau to the eyes or whatever, or to his hooking arm? Bil sau to the eyes is just the same as a strike i guess, and wouldn't stop you getting hit unless you put up some barrier or move your entire body?

"Spectacular immaculate raps massacre cats like dracula bats, I'm snappin yer back cos I'm attackin the wack, duckin yer rapid attack, **** packin a gat, the mechanic of rap'll give you panic attacks with his Satanical raps." - Guess who.

Vankuen
09-08-2001, 08:00 AM
I think the bottom line is this: One has to be smarter then simply learning the mechanical aspects of any art. Yes, you have to understand structure, but there's and infinite amount of ways one can deal with any attack.

You have to make wing chun your own, and make work for you. Theres more than one way to perform any movement, so long as it stays within the core guidlines of course.

Wing chun, well any art to me, has to be dynamic and alive. All this talk of mechanical B.S is to me, an example of a dead art. And thats not how I think of wing chun at all. I may use a tan da to defend against a hook, then again I may use the concept of "jeet kuen" and intercept. I may decide to do the same with a kick. It just depends on where I am at the moment of the attack, both mentally and physically. Ive actually seen people turn into the hook using footwork and simply go with it using bong sau or wu sau. Point is, you make it work. Or you make it not work. Its all up to you.

"From one thing know ten thousand" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

"Loy lau hoi sung, lut sau jik chung"

Vankuen
09-08-2001, 08:04 AM
Who's the asian guy in the pic sharky? That tan sau looks a little structurally weak to me, if that is a tan sau at all. Just an observation. No offensive intent there...just something I was looking at.

"From one thing know ten thousand" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

"Loy lau hoi sung, lut sau jik chung"

Scott
09-08-2001, 08:30 AM
I didn't take time to read all the responses since I had already formulated my answer. While this may not fit some Wing Chun theory I believe it's by far the best answer...

A hook doesn't move forward, so a slight move backwards will dodge it easily. Your weight should already be at least 70% on your back leg, 100% depending on your lineage, so just lean into it, bend your back knee a little, and move backwards with your upper body. The range of a hook is very limited, you can then move forward and attack.

Some people will say that this is not a forward 'conquering' motion and therefor is bad Wing Chun, but at the same time this motion does not cause you to lose ground or give up your position.

-Scott

"I'm just an actor, just like Robert f***ing Redford when I say those stupid words that they expect me to say."--Art Alexakis

Scott
09-08-2001, 08:36 AM
While I still hold by my answer of leaning backwards, which should be full-proof, I just remembered that we do train a block that may work in this situation, though I've never tried it.

I have no idea what the block is called, but it basically involves whipping your arm out to the outside (left hand to the left or right arm to the right, never across your body) and when contact is made, snapping your hand so that it is basically a Wu Sau done at a horrendous angle far out from your body. I think it was made with a move more like the Choy Lay Fut downward punch in mind, but it may work on a hook.

I still say... Lean back. When his hook misses, lean forward and press your attack. I think that application is really more of a JKD thing, but if it works.. *shrug*

-Scott

"I'm just an actor, just like Robert f***ing Redford when I say those stupid words that they expect me to say."--Art Alexakis

aelward
09-08-2001, 08:55 AM
Scott writes:
> A hook doesn't move forward, so a slight move
> backwards will dodge it easily.

While a tight hook might not be moving forward in relation to the boxer's body, that body may be moving forward. For example, someone may lead with a jab, and step in while bending the elbow to ****, and then hit with a hook. Or even off of the cross or uppercut, it is possible the person may step in with a hook. Not to mention all the people who try to imitate boxers and arc those hooks slightly forward.

So while you're leaning back, you may want to cover up a little as well, just in case that hook DOES have some forward qualities to it. :P.

JK-
"Sex on TV doesn't hurt unless you fall off."

Vankuen
09-08-2001, 09:13 AM
There are such things as lunging hooks! When I boxed I used a really nice whipping hook...Ive been told it was really deceptive, and effective. I usually knocked down just about everyone it made contact with.

It basically looked like a lead straight, but then hooking in at the last moment, combined with footwork of course to move in and add to the whip and angle. Very JKD'ish. But effective!

Everyone is different...gotta watch out for the ones that dont fight in conventional methods.

"From one thing know ten thousand" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

"Loy lau hoi sung, lut sau jik chung"

hunt1
09-08-2001, 05:40 PM
there are no blocks in WC.you do not block a hook.there is no need if you understand and have the confidence to perform WC as intended.Vankuen gives aperfect example of why not to block.I have trained against professional boxers.Hooks are easy to stop unless you try to block them.You will end up blocking with your head.
I am talking about a hook not a round punch by the way.couse you dont block a round punch either but they are much less dangerous.

BeiKongHui
09-09-2001, 03:17 PM
Imagine you are squared off with an opponent.

Now the shape is essentially the same as a Bong Sao with the wrist on the center line. But drop your elbow so that your arm has a "goose neck" shape to it and the hand is more or less above the elbow, straight up and down. It should be the same angle as the bong sao more or less. Now if the hand (your fook sao) is aiming at the shoulder of your imaginary opponent as he hooks you (keeping the same shape)swing your fook sao out to meet it but allow your elbow to move off center and around your ribs to protect them.. Always aim at the shoulder and swing outward and you will never miss the hook. I find this works better than a Tan Sao because the oppoent can't come around it as easily. I know this is a crappy description if you need more maybe I can get a picture or something.

Now a some things on this Fook Sao: 1)You will move off your own center as your elbow will move around your ribs as you accept the hook. 2)The purists will hate this move because it can be force on force but it works. 3)Maintain the "golden angle" or whatever the minimum elbow angle is for the bong sao so it won't collapse in on you. 4)The beauty of this is you can block a hook to the head or maintaining the same shape just lower it a bit and the elbow will stop the hook to the ribs. 5)I've used it in the clinch and it worked. 6)My 120lbs. wife has made it work against much, much larger opponents who were skilled in boxing and San Shou so it's structuarlly sound. 7)I try to catch hooks to the head by flicking the fook sao out really fast and hard so that the hook contacts the bone on the opposite side of my wrist from the thumb. This often hurts the opponent. 8)Make it a Fook Dar or step in and use an elbow simultaneously.

Like I say I'm sure some will say this is a violation of principal but the only violations that matter in my book are the ones that don't work and I've used this movement successfully against much stronger opponents. Play with it and make it your own. Good luck.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

wingchunalex
09-10-2001, 04:23 AM
sorry guys, tan da does work, and a boxer doesnt just throw good hooks from a clinch. my sifu learned to box scientifically from age nine all the way throught his teen years, he's as good at boxing as he is wing chun (but he focuses on wing chun now). for tan to work you have to face the punch with your tan, have it on center and face the punch and da. the other thing you can do is bil sau it. with a good boxer they will set you up with a jab, then slip your punch and come from under you on a side. (mike tyson was great at this move). you will also have to be even more weary of there shots to the body.

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

whippinghand
09-10-2001, 05:13 AM
You break it.

Vankuen
09-10-2001, 05:27 AM
Im starting to wonder if you know anything at all. I sometimes see some information come from you that seems useful to the people on here, but for the most part, you seem very, how do you say..."up on yourself"?

"From one thing know ten thousand" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

"Loy lau hoi sung, lut sau jik chung"

Sharky
09-10-2001, 05:52 AM
Ok Sharky....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Imagine you are squared off with an opponent.
Now the shape is essentially the same as a Bong Sao with the wrist on the center line. But drop your elbow so that your arm has a "goose neck" shape to it and the hand is more or less above the elbow, straight up and down. It should be the same angle as the bong sao more or less. Now if the hand (your fook sao) is aiming at the shoulder of your imaginary opponent as he hooks you (keeping the same shape)swing your fook sao out to meet it but allow your elbow to move off center and around your ribs to protect them.. Always aim at the shoulder and swing outward and you will never miss the hook. I find this works better than a Tan Sao because the oppoent can't come around it as easily. I know this is a crappy description if you need more maybe I can get a picture or something.

Now a some things on this Fook Sao: 1)You will move off your own center as your elbow will move around your ribs as you accept the hook. 2)The purists will hate this move because it can be force on force but it works. 3)Maintain the "golden angle" or whatever the minimum elbow angle is for the bong sao so it won't collapse in on you. 4)The beauty of this is you can block a hook to the head or maintaining the same shape just lower it a bit and the elbow will stop the hook to the ribs. 5)I've used it in the clinch and it worked. 6)My 120lbs. wife has made it work against much, much larger opponents who were skilled in boxing and San Shou so it's structuarlly sound. 7)I try to catch hooks to the head by flicking the fook sao out really fast and hard so that the hook contacts the bone on the opposite side of my wrist from the thumb. This often hurts the opponent. 8)Make it a Fook Dar or step in and use an elbow simultaneously.

Like I say I'm sure some will say this is a violation of principal but the only violations that matter in my book are the ones that don't work and I've used this movement successfully against much stronger opponents. Play with it and make it your own. Good luck.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

========================

Argh! Thanks for your kind post mate, but i can't visualise the move? Do u mean like a tan sau, which is moved of centre, and then the wrist is bent to a fook sau? I remember doing this in class ages ago. Please clarify! :)

"Spectacular immaculate raps massacre cats like dracula bats, I'm snappin yer back cos I'm attackin the wack, duckin yer rapid attack, **** packin a gat, the mechanic of rap'll give you panic attacks with his Satanical raps." - Guess who.

Sharky
09-10-2001, 05:57 AM
as i re read u post, i am beginning to understand :) It *is* like i was imagining i think? If you start in tan sau, but move your elbow off centre to round near ur outside ribs, and have ur wrist bent and ur fook pointing away from you? Is that it? My sihing once showed me that man, but i'd forgotten it......

"Spectacular immaculate raps massacre cats like dracula bats, I'm snappin yer back cos I'm attackin the wack, duckin yer rapid attack, **** packin a gat, the mechanic of rap'll give you panic attacks with his Satanical raps." - Guess who.

Scott
09-10-2001, 07:11 AM
Lean backwards and block with a Wu Sau the arm opposite of the hook, on the outside of the attacking arm. The lean should grant you space. Your opposite arm shifts from Wu Sau to a grab/pull technique (its in Wing Chun and Chin Na) and grabs their hook from the outside and pulls down and across their own body (trapping) as you step in and punch. Pivot at the same time as the pull to increase the motion and snapping force and throw your opponent off balance.

This would be nigh impossible if you didn't lean backwards and pivot at the same time as the hook, because of the proximity of the attack.

This doesn't break any principles because it's not "Blocking," it's just carrying through with the motion that's already in place.

-Scott

"I'm just an actor, just like Robert f***ing Redford when I say those stupid words that they expect me to say."--Art Alexakis

Sharky
09-10-2001, 11:05 AM
it does, cos you're leaning back and breaking the correct structure.

are we forgetting how fast a hook actually is here people?

"Spectacular immaculate raps massacre cats like dracula bats, I'm snappin yer back cos I'm attackin the wack, duckin yer rapid attack, **** packin a gat, the mechanic of rap'll give you panic attacks with his Satanical raps." - Guess who.

Roy D. Anthony
09-10-2001, 11:06 AM
Tan Dah is a very good answer to a hook punch. Also depending on your range at which the Hook punch is coming in moving back a bit letting it pass and jut sao followed with a Wing Chun Horizontal Hook punch works extremely well. Hope this Helps.

whippinghand
09-10-2001, 05:43 PM
You tell me so much.

BeiKongHui
09-10-2001, 10:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> as i re read u post, i am beginning to understand It *is* like i was imagining i think? If you start in tan sau, but move your elbow off centre to round near ur outside ribs, and have ur wrist bent and ur fook pointing away from you? Is that it? My sihing once showed me that man, but i'd forgotten it...... [/quote]

Right on Sharky.

Whipping Hand, how do you suggest "breaking a hook"? Let me guess a "Go bong sao".

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

whippinghand
09-11-2001, 08:53 AM
Pick any technique you like.

greedy
09-12-2001, 03:31 AM
I've gotta say I'm getting a little nervous hearing people advising others to lean back from a hook. It works fine for Ali, but remeber that a whole generation of boxers were ruined because they tried Ali moves without Ali speed.

Leaning backwards can work once. The problem? You do that the first time, it works a treat. second time, your opponent is waiting for it, and will go downstairs. With your wait over your back leg, and body angled backwards, it is difficult to regain the body structure or footwork required to defend against body blows. It hurts.

cheer

whippinghand
09-12-2001, 05:56 AM
true true. That's why you break it. So it or your opponent won't come back at you.

chi-kwai
09-12-2001, 02:57 PM
is bad. move inside the range of the hook, turn with a 'chuen ma' or even a 'ngoi seen wai' to the opposite side of the hook, put a 'tan' up, and with your other hand make a fist and use it.

when sparring, play fighting, or whatever, I welcome hooks. They tend to be, for me, one of the easiest attacks to defeat.

A good exercise for building up confidence/skill against hooks is to set up in a closed stance across from your partner. Both of you chain punch in synch, opposite arms meeting on the outside. One designated person will break off and throw a hook from either side. The defender will use 'tan' to meet the hook and with the other hand punch the attacker's chest. Rinse and repeat as needed.

--
chi kwai

BeiKongHui
09-12-2001, 03:29 PM
We are talking a boxers hook here. When I throw a hook while boxing or doing San Shou I am way too close for any chain punches to work in fact I would be (chest to chest)less than one foot away maybe even in the clinch. If you tan sao I will go around it and hit you anyway but more than likely you won't be able to because I'll be clinching with one hand and working your ribs with the other. Realistically, I don't consider myself a good boxer or all that strong but I can fire a close range hook shot into a Muay Thai bag hard enough to bend it into a "V" shape so think about what a bigger person could do and also the very low probability of "breaking" that.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

chi-kwai
09-12-2001, 03:55 PM
Reread my post please. I said an exercise for learning to deal with a hook.

--
chi kwai

BeiKongHui
09-12-2001, 04:56 PM
I read your post but what good is an exercise that doesn't prepare you for reality? Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

whippinghand
09-13-2001, 07:52 AM
"When I throw a hook while boxing or doing San Shou I am way too close for any chain punches to work in fact I would be (chest to chest)less than one foot away maybe even in the clinch."

Well of course, at that distance, with gloves on, you won't be able to generate enough power. Take the gloves off, then you can. That is, if you have a good punch.

Roy D. Anthony
09-13-2001, 08:26 AM
Scoot, i agree with your leaning back. it comes from the Siu Lim Tao stance in yee jee kim yeung ma. I use it all the time with my Chum kiu ma with great result and no break of structure. not many will understand this in this forum, however it does work without breaking of structure, and the best thing of all is the no loss of distance or balance.
We have a drill that trains this, in the Ip Man System, and yes almost horizontal.
Congratulations for understanding this.

BeiKongHui
09-13-2001, 08:53 PM
I hope the next guy I fight leans back. He'll soon find my knee in his diaphragm and my fist in his face after I've taken him to the ground.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

reneritchie
09-13-2001, 09:09 PM
If we're referring to gao san (at the end of biu jee for example, or something more lateral in the jong for another type of small adjustment.) As the name implies, they're emergency sort of techniques, IMHO, where small sacrifice is made to avoid big failure (not that there aren't a ton of regular goodies therein as well).

In my experience, WCK takes into account that things might go wrong or come about in surprise, and there's layer upon layer of coping mechanism in place.

While less than ideal, I do believe that there are times you need to break the regular rules (or the result, again, could be "ouch, ouch, my head, my head.")

Rgds,

RR

BeiKongHui
09-13-2001, 09:30 PM
I guess what I should've said is that so many people in WCK keep their weight so far back anyway that they are vulnarable to takedowns and extra leaning will make you doubly so. Once any momentum is gained by the attacker it is very difficult to stop a low charge, or a shoot as the momentum will keep the attacker going forward right through punches & kicks.
I like to be close enough to my opponent to hold onto their belt and I look for things like leaning back or too much weight on the heels because it's often that split second opportunity needed to knock the opponent over.

BTW I may not agree with some of the viewpoints in this topic as I'm sure others disagree with mine but this is an important topic because so many WCK people have trouble with hooks. Keep those ideas comin'!

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

whippinghand
09-14-2001, 01:22 AM
There is a difference.

Roy D. Anthony
09-14-2001, 12:00 PM
BKH, the lean back is as a defence to a hook punch, it is hard to throw a knee strike at the same time as one throws a hook.
Defending against the knee strike is still within time of recovery.
Leaning back must also have a limit as to where the weight is placed. In finding that limit, one can find the lean with no compromise to balance.
Don't forget you also have the choice to step back as a response to the opponents follow up.

reneritchie
09-15-2001, 01:32 AM
I've found that its helpful to look at things in a "whole-system" way. Despite what we like to tell ourselves, no one system is perfect or has the only way of doing things. Each approach has strong points and weak points, advantages and disadvantages. If you pick out any single aspect (like a back lean) and try to put it into your own system in order to appraise it, IMHO you don't get a very good result because within the "whole-system" methods have evolved to maximize the benefits and minimize the risks.

To really judge, IMHO, you need to check out an expert at the approach, see what they do, and see how they support it.

Rgds,

RR

whippinghand
09-15-2001, 01:41 AM
What about the "kneeling horse"?

BeiKongHui
09-16-2001, 12:16 AM
I'm not really sure you what you mean by a knee attack? What I mean is that if you slip my hook I will rush you and take you to the ground or, as I do at times, if I miss the hook is shoot in on the front leg, slam my shoulder into your gut or chest and throw you sideways to break your root. You probably don't have to worry about this against most people but most people don't know how to throw a good hook either.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Despite what we like to tell ourselves, no one system is perfect or has the only way of doing things. [/quote]

ain't that the truth...actually, I wouldn't really advocate any system of WC over another as I have been taught by two very different Sifu's and have a tendency to mix & match the things I know and if someone out there is doing something a way I like better I'll want to learn it regardless of who it came from. I don't speak for a system (or either of my lineages for that matter) just stuff that's worked or not worked for me.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

Roy D. Anthony
09-16-2001, 04:56 AM
No techniques is perfect!Every technique has a counter.
Use every way as the way and use no way as the way!
Perfection lies in imperfection!
This is the premise of non-classical Wing Chun.

whippinghand
09-16-2001, 05:05 AM
was directed at rene. I.E. how as it implemented in his system?