Chain punching

[Gangsterfist]

Okay, after recent discussion with ernie via email I realized a few things about chain punching. I never even thought of it until Ernie put it into perspective for me (thanks bro).

I was talking about some of WSL full contact matches. I heard that he used mainly two moves. The qwan sao and the chain punch. When I said that I got corrected, in a politely manner (which is sometimes unusual on this forum) by Ernie saying he would never chain punch. That is because it is a low level skill move and is looked down upon. Chain punching like a machine gun, as ernie put it. Click on this link and download the first video of these two guys chi sao'ing in NYC. They are doing these machine gun type moves. Also rock out to the NY hardcore band thrashing in the background lol :D

http://www.wtny.com/gallery_videos.php#

Now, I am not saying that will not win a fight, but I am being demonstrative here and using that as a visual example. So lets just leave that link as an example, not any kind of an attack on that system of wing chun.

I had a sudden realization that everytime I used the term chain punching on this forum people probably thought of that machine gun analogy. I talked with my sifu about it and he agreed with what ernie had told me. WSL actually used chain punches, but they were controlled strikes. Perhaps the term chain punch is just misinterpreted. We do not look at the chain punch as a low level technique. Infact it is a very good, and advanced technique.

They say a chain punch comes from the heart. This is true in more ways than one. Metaphorically you must have love and intent with your wing chun, or you must have heart. Secondly, the fist chambers on the centerline, right in front of the chest, and is right over your heart. Now the back hand advances and the forward hand rectracts. The forward hand drops so the back hand may take its place. This can be looked at like pulling a chain on a pulley, thus chain punching. Not machine gun rapid fire punches. Now once you start attacking, and retracting that front hand and maintaining the centerline you are also defending the body. The chain punch is so simple, and very advanced in the fact that you are maintaining structure, simeltanious attack and defense, and your strikes are usually getting to their targets quicker via straight line theory.

When fighting gets too fast for blocks, use the chain punch.

Now, I am sure a lot of people look at this differently, and train it differently as well. This is just something I would like to share so any kind of further reference I put out to chain punching you guys know what I mean. I do not mean rapid fire machine gun strikes. However, those type of sensory overload techniques can be very effective, I just don't train those.

Now, as far as chi sao concerns go, I do not chain punch. Chi sao is a game, not fighting. I am trying to control my opponet not fight them, so we do not chain punch. That is a discussion for a different thread though, I mainly wanted to get my point across about chain punches.

If any of you have different views or anything to add about chain punches please do.

[kj]

Nice essay, Gangsterfist.


Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Okay, after recent discussion with ernie via email I realized a few things about chain punching. I never even thought of it until Ernie put it into perspective for me (thanks bro).

That Ernie guy is okay. Despite what his mom says about him. :p


I had a sudden realization that everytime I used the term chain punching on this forum people probably thought of that machine gun analogy.

Yup. Or something akin to it.


I talked with my sifu about it and he agreed with what ernie had told me. WSL actually used chain punches, but they were controlled strikes. Perhaps the term chain punch is just misinterpreted. We do not look at the chain punch as a low level technique. Infact it is a very good, and advanced technique.

They say a chain punch comes from the heart. This is true in more ways than one. Metaphorically you must have love and intent with your wing chun, or you must have heart. Secondly, the fist chambers on the centerline, right in front of the chest, and is right over your heart.

Nice description.

FWIW. Where you use the term "chain punch" we instead use the term "sun character punch." We really don't speak of "chain punches." In many senses, we only have one punch. If an appropriate opening remains, we may once more use one punch. But it is always just one punch. Even if one punch happens to occur several times in succession. ;)

In case of interest, here are a few of our proverbs that work together relative to the topic at hand. (With due gratitude to Ip Man, Leung Sheung, our teachers and seniors for passing these on.):


Sun character punch. ("Punch with the fist displaying the 'sun' or 'day' character.)
"The [sun character] punch emanates from the heart."
"Strike when an opportunity is available. Do not stike when you should not."
"Your hands will instruct you on how to proceed." [Provided you're 'listening,' though not if you're 'forcing' or insisting on something.]
"A punch is never [i.e., should not be] wasted."
"Offer no mercy when the favorable situation is attained." [Therefore, after one punch, it's possible one punch might occur again. ;)]
And my perennial favorite: "Don't be greedy; don't be afraid."



When fighting gets too fast for blocks, use the chain punch.

Possibly just another semantics dilemma. FWIW we don't "block" in the strongest connotation of the term (except when performance degrades). And by now you know my line on just one punch.


Now, I am sure a lot of people look at this differently, and train it differently as well.

Sure, otherwise we'd all have less to argue and fuss about. What fun would that be? :p


Now, as far as chi sao concerns go, I do not chain punch. Chi sao is a game, not fighting. I am trying to control my opponet not fight them, so we do not chain punch. That is a discussion for a different thread though, I mainly wanted to get my point across about chain punches.

I think you did.


If any of you have different views or anything to add about chain punches please do.

Oops ... wrong thread ... and here I am talking about only one punch! :D

Regards,
- kj

[Wingman]

Good post Gangsterfist. Chain punch is a very good technique. But what is more important is the idea it conveys. The chain punch summarizes most of the wing chun principles of simplicity, economy of motion, simultaneous attack and defence, occupying the centerline, & the straight line theory.

Many people think that chain punches should be done very fast. They use rapid fire punches just like a machine gun. They try to overcome their opponent using greater power & speed. But what if your opponent is faster & stronger? So the faster & stronger opponent wins? But wasn't wing chun designed for a smaller & weaker opponent to overcome a stronger & faster opponent?

IMHO, chain punch derives its speed & power from the wing chun principles of simplicity, economy of motion, simultaneous attack and defence, occupying the centerline, & the straight line theory.
Unless the practitioner has understood these WC priciples, he will have the wrong idea of the chain punch.

[Gangsterfist]

Wingman and KJ-

Great posts. It basically does come down to semantics. Blocking, parrying, whatever is looked at as blocking. Its kind of like those people that call every kind of soda pop coke. I just read an article by GM William Chueng and he called the biu sao, biu jee in the article. Which still gets the point across and if you really get down to it, thrusting hand, thrusting fingers is basically the same thing.

FWIW we have several punches in our wing chun and the maxims you listed KJ I have heard sifu and sigung say both of those.

We recognzie that chain punching can be like a machine gun, and that sensory overload technqiues like that can work. Most of the time versus the untrained fighter. My sifu is pretty good at white crane boxing as well, and many times when I have spared him and rushed his center like that, he has basically swallowed my technique. Then the next thing I know I feel a smack across my face and I am picking myself off the ground. I think you must realize that when do you that type of chain punching you are committing yourself to that technique. Which in return can be used against you.

Thanks for the comments though, it has been a great discussion with you guys (and gals ;) ).

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Wingman

IMHO, chain punch derives its speed & power from the wing chun principles of simplicity, economy of motion, simultaneous attack and defence, occupying the centerline, & the straight line theory.
Unless the practitioner has understood these WC priciples, he will have the wrong idea of the chain punch.

Yup, thats another point I was making. You must realize that when you execute those "machine gun" punches you are committing to that attack, and that committment can be used against you.

We practice Yang style Taiji with our wing chun to help develope our wing chun. Some may or may not agree with that but I think it definately helps me out in several areas of my wing chun. I can tell you that committing anything to a good interal arts fighter, can be a very bad thing. I would have countless broken arms if the fights had been real and not sparring matches with my taiji brothers/sisters.

Again, thanks for both of your posts it was good stuff.

Oh, we also call it straight punch, or vertical punch, but mainly the term chain punch gets tossed around.

[old jong]

"Chain punching" should be put in the garbage bag with "Trapping" and "Straight blast" and taken out to the curb. These terms carry wrong ideas not in accord with Wing Chun. (IMO)

[KenWingJitsu]

LOL @ chain punching being a low level technique.

I know Ernie doesnt like chain punches, but....I do. If you know how and WHEN to use them...they are beyond effective. The key is 'how (broken rhtythm, using thrusting power). the 'when', is trickier. but the simplest is after interception. For a breif moment, you can do anything...including chain punches.

Number 1 reason most people down chain punching is the lack of power...and this is usually true. But not if you do it the correct way. If you do it right, punches should be slower than what you usually see on WT demo clips; (:D hey if you can't 'dis' your own lineage once in a while you take yourself too seriously) and they should be more penetrating - more like jab-crosses, than hampster-feet scratches lol. Breaking the rhythm of the punches also 'allows' you to 'sense' whether or not you can continue with them or if he's about to defend.

[Ernie]

good lord , they pulled me into another one ha ha ha

well lets look at the facts .

why does the chain punch work simple [ forward pressure ]
this causes the other person to give up his position and most people suck at fighting while moving backwards .

is it effective ----------yes

does it take alot of skill -------- beyond limb co operation and balance [ what most people lack is balance , they tend to over shoot and end up on the floor or compressing there space ]

no not really track focus mitts for a few months and do some moter cycle helmet drills and you pretty much got it .



thus not much of a high skill



when there is no feeling , or time to bulid up power . the chain punch is just a empty buzz saw that intimidates a person , which is why people use it to bridge and then have to switch into more ballistic tools like elbows and knees to really do any damage .

just look at the jkd striaght blast . [ calm down jong ]
they understand what it really is , forward pressure so they sprint it , and then they let the hands fly as fast as possible to rip across a persons defense and get to the neck and then they put in the real fight enders head butt knee elbow throws and chokes and locks and so on .
they don't even care if the fist hits .


so when the hands travel so fast and your in animal mode , you are not relating to the other person [ thus no feel or adaptiveness ]

there is no power since the hands ar moving to quickly not enough time for relax and full contranction or mental intent .


now like dhira pointed out

if you break rythem [ thus buy time to feel and build power and get position ] then your applying a different skill

it could be a punch a push a pull a palm a what ever as long as you are gain position and braking there balance .

now for a person to be able to break positon and keep up a momentum and apply a clear powerful shot in one or two motions
that person would have a higher skill
better sensitivity ,better timing , better control

so what is more impressive 50 punches or 2 ?

p.s. dhira you know i'm not into lineage specific things , just out put vs. reward

for example you know in your heart you can walk right through the average chain flurry but to walk right through a well place jab cross [ for example ] is alot harder and more dangerous .

[KenWingJitsu]

:D feel my chain punch; she is deadly lol!

"if you break rythem [ thus buy time to feel and build power and get position ] then your applying a different skill "

perhaps, but to me this is the way to make chain punching work so I simply call it the "correct way" to chain punch.

same thing with the JKD "straight blast" lol!!!!! yeah i know, but Ernie is correct in that it is a way better method of 'chain punching'.

"for example you know in your heart you can walk right through the average chain flurry but to walk right through a well place jab cross [ for example ] is alot harder and more dangerous ."

True dat. Which is why chain punches should be more like jab-cross-jab-cross than....'sratch the wet paper bag contest'. lol.

(I only brought up my WT bros because we are um.....'infamous' for chain punching. ):p

[IRONMONK]

i think chain punching is just a combination attack.You could use palm strikes instead or any combination of attacking movements.But i think the important idea is to hurt your opponent and destroy your opponents balance.
i have seen many ppl do chain punching like rapid slaps and lack any power.And this is what gives chain punches a bad name
:D

p.s i used chain punches against a much larger opponent.I got attacked for no reason by a 6ft heavyweight guy with a sucker punch(surpise) on the street.I got hit about three times but under these pressure conditions all i could think of is chain punching( i was a 6month beginner than and drilled alot of chain punches in class).And so i chain punched him -they didnt knock him out coz the guy started to run away from me and i found it hard to hit a fleeing target.BUt anway the chain punches was enough to scare the guy and it prevented me from waking up in hospital the next day.

[Ernie]

dhira
(I only brought up my WT bros because we are um.....'infamous' for chain punching. )


see shows you how little i pay attention to things , in all the times i worked out with andrew and you , never came up :D

but elbows knees take downs and ground well that's another story :D

speaking of training man how is your '' thing '' going i know i havent had a chance to help out but i'm there in spirit .

IRONMONK

it's a legitimate tool , i have even pulled it off sparring with boxers back in the day and it was fun to freak them out . but i also saw how people respond affter the initial shock of having some body rushing them with a machine gun , the cover up or stiff arm or bend down .
each case nulifies the blast ,
if you can flow from blast instantly to the next open line or target with the right tool then good for you .
but in my limited experience people will get all emotional and just keep blasting on a closed door with no awarness of wahts going on .
i have even seen people blast the top of a persons head while the dip down and wonder why there hands are all busted up after , and one time i watch a guy blast some one in the back because the guy turned and instead of inserting a better tool he just kept punching i was busting up .

i guess ti's true you fight like you train:D

[Gangsterfist]

Some of you grasped how we (people at my kwoon) chain punch, and the rest of you still see it has a machine gun blast of fists wound up like a tornado and crashing like a tsunami.


I will tell you what takes high skill. Rapid attacking (I don't mean machine gun, I mean control) using lot sao (removing hands) while still maintaining structure and being relaxed so you can release energy. Not to fully extend your arm, and at the end of your strike (impact) release and push through. That takes skill, and can be used in chain punching. As well as dynamicly placing your strikes. Wing chun target area is the torso and the head. Throw three or so punches at the body then a few at the head. Switch it up, but maintain that state of relaxation, and keep a little idea in the head.

Like I said think of it as pulling a chain, not chain gun firing many bullets.

If you can execute strikes that like in a quick manner that takes lots of skill IMHO.

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Secondly, the fist chambers on the centerline, right in front of the chestPunches should not chamber in the centerline. That's asking for trouble!

[Gangsterfist]

I train that you always want to chamber a punch incase your opponet is moving (bobbing and weaving) so you can better land the strike.

When there is no form, strike the shadow.

Explain why you would not chamber the next punch? I mean isn't it already chambered when you are standing in your bai jong? your wu sao (or back hand) can immediately come up as a strike, and its already there protecting your center line.

[Ernie]

Explain why you would not chamber the next punch? I mean isn't it already chambered when you are standing in your bai jong? your wu sao (or back hand) can immediately come up as a strike, and its already there protecting your center line.



nearest weapon to nearest target , no time to chamber anything , no byjong stance
just hit from were you are natural not fixed .

what's that silly little chinese term sounds like [ yuen why da ] not sure how to spell it :D

[Gangsterfist]

Okay, but that is not the case for every time. In Chum Kiu when you do the first section of lan saos and bon saos on the last lan sao you chamber your punch over the lan sao first. This is to establish your position and if your opponet moves on you can better strike the designated target.

Closest weapon, closest target I think works best a longer range, just outside of what you would call trapping range.

In what I was saying in the first place is when chain punching, the back hand always chambers on the center line. The first strike may come from the closest hand that is okay, but the next strike chambers so it may hit its target better and at the same time guard the body by positioning.

Another thing I heard about WSL (which started this thread lol) is that he would only chain punch (or whatever you want to call it) twice to knock out his opponet. Strike, chamber, strike in one fluent, controlled motion. However, I could be wrong as well since it is just what I have heard.

[Ernie]

In what I was saying in the first place is when chain punching, the back hand always chambers on the center line. The first strike may come from the closest hand that is okay, but the next strike chambers so it may hit its target better and at the same time guard the body by positioning.


eeeekk forms yuck , i think i threw up a little


if your punching an imaginary target in the air you can do what ever you want .

if your really hitting a moving target that is hitting you back

things change , if you try and fit a ''form'' into this situation then you are a robot and you are not relateing to reality .

if my knee is closer i will knee you if my head is closer i will head butt if your ear is next to my teeth i will go tyson , all depends

go out and really hit afew people and report back :D


oh god i think i'm dizzy , forms crap i'm throwing up again :cool:

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
I train that you always want to chamber a punch incase your opponet is moving (bobbing and weaving) so you can better land the strike. Didn't say there was anything wrong with chambering itself, just not in the centreline. Chambering there makes it pointless to chamber at all.

Bai jong is not simply putting your arms up in center. There is much more to it than that, like the dynamic of the body itself - the torque, angles, etc.


your wu sao (or back hand) can immediately come up as a strike, and its already there protecting your center lineHow many fighters do you know that strike at the centre line?

[Gangsterfist]

Okay, I will post my reasons later ( I am at work still). Ernie hope you were wearing a bib bro.

There are reasons you chamber your punch. I am not thinking of transfering the form into real fighting. There is a reason you train that way and I can explain later.

There is a difference in training and in fighting, and I will give you full examples later on.

[Ernie]

Ernie hope you were wearing a bib bro.

i will wear a bucket if you keep referring to forms , shapes , or techniques :D


don't recite reasons go hit people and then share experiences

[KenWingJitsu]

lol.

I like this Ernie guy.

[Gangsterfist]

okay by ernie's words I will share an experience.

A few times I have found while sparring and in trapping range, and hands are tied somehow. Chamber your punch first because a lot of times your opponet will move once you chamber it, then you strike them. I have done it more than once.

I guess its not always that way, it is situational. My part about taking that from the form should be looked at in a training perspective. You train that way to teach yourself to chamber the punch, when applicable.

Kept it short and to the point, I guess you can disagree with me, but it has worked for me in sparring. I really don't get in fights anymore so can't say that it will work in a real fight, but I am willing to say if the situation happens, I am sure it would be a good idea.

[KingMonkey]

A few times I have found while sparring and in trapping range, and hands are tied somehow. Chamber your punch first because a lot of times your opponet will move once you chamber it, then you strike them. I have done it more than once.

Well if your opponent is any good and or aggressive they will eat up your space when you do this and smack you in the mouth.

Feints (which is basically what you are describing) can be good although maybe not at the range and in the circumstance you describe IMHO.

[zakb]

I agree with the last guy. You should never be thinking about bringing your wu sao hand back to chamber it for a next punch. If you do that, you risk your opponent dominating that line and possibly wacking you in the face.

When you punch, your non-punching hand automatically will come back a certain distance. It is natural for it do so. Any extra conscious chambering results in an un-natural movement. + you want your rear hand closer rather than further away from your oppenent head, resulting in a faster counter attack. (even a few inches can make all the difference). If you train your punches correctly then the power you generate from your hand shouldn't depend a lot on the distance it travels. (obviosuly to do that from a few inches, requires a lot of training).

On the talk of getting your hands trapped, it's only risky if your hands are literally touching each other. Other than that, if your opponent does try and trap you while you are chain punching, simple footwork and sharp hand training like you do in lok sao, rolling hands, can easily get you out of that.

In fact with a good practioner it is much easier to trap someone if they have their hands too close to their body.

[Gangsterfist]

Its not a feint. A feint would be jabbing and pulling back to get your opponet to move.

The punch is all one motion, with a very very small pause (or chamber) in its motion. Chamber may even be the wrong word, I just don't know how to describe it. Its a way to control your strikes.

If everything were to work out perfect your replacing hand would already be where it needed to be (it would already be chambered, it would already be there)

I am not saying stop the motion to chamber it.

[Frank Exchange]

Chain punching as WSL taught it, is a concept, rather than a particular technique; the idea of hitting multiple times in quick sucession if the opportunity presented itself, rather than relying on one big hit to do the job.

He also liked it because the first hit may jar the brain, dissipating the cranial fluid, removing its cushioning effect, the second or third if done quickly enough would cause the brain to strike the skull, before the fluid had a chance to reform. Higher chance of a knockout that way.

Whether the strikes were punches, palms to the chin, or elbows is largely irrelevant, it is the concept that is important. And this does not mean 10 strikes, but 2 or 3. If you need more than that, you hit like a child. :)

As ernie points out, you should hit from whatever position you may find yourself to be in. Rarely do you have the time to do a form perfect "chain punch", and constantly punching along the centreline is a sure way to get whacked, if your center is not explicitly being threatened.

[Gangsterfist]

Yeah I realize that against a skilled fighter chain punching will only work if the opportunity presents itself. This thread has gone on too long lol. I just wanted to make a basic point.

Thanks for all the input however.

[Ng Mui]

Rose, the flower by any other name would smell just as sweet.
Chain punching, Machine gun punching or multiple single punches. The techniques by any other name would be just as effective.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Frank Exchange
Whether the strikes were punches, palms to the chin, or elbows is largely irrelevant, it is the concept that is important. And this does not mean 10 strikes, but 2 or 3. If you need more than that, you hit like a child. :)

Very true! If after 10 chain punches your opponent is still standing; then there is something wrong with your chain punch.