Kettlebell Training

[Martin Foot]

Is anyone using Kettle bells or Club bells?
How have they made a difference to you?
How do they differ in effect?

[Ultimatewingchun]

What are Kettlebells?

[reneritchie]

I've tried them but still use regular dumbells in my own training. Kettlebells and clubbells are nice, but expensive and hard to acquire and I'm not convinced there's really *that* much you can do with them you can't do with some ingenuity on the cheap :)

Victor - http://www.russiankettlebells.com/

[Phil Redmond]

Hey Victor, I got Pavel's kettlebell tapes from our Bro. Charles in Milwaukee. I'll make you copies when I get back to Detroit.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Thanks, Phil.

-Victor

[KenWingJitsu]

Wait till AndewS sees this thread .....lol

[AndrewS]

Alright, I'll bite.

K-bells are old school supplementary training aids, used by boxers, wrestlers, and strongmen from back in the day when iron was about strength not bloated bodybuilding bullsh*t.

Most of what you do with them can be done with dumbells.

Here are their advantages-

-round and smooth, you don't get torn up as much doing things like double handed clean and jerks, snatches, e., or generally get banged uo

-thick handles build grip strength

-fixed weights force you to really work through your problems and force training cycling (i.e. going from pressing 55 to 72 lbs with nothing in between takes some work with the 55).

-displaced center of gravity makes for less wrist stress makes supporting the bell easier

-rotational forces don't tear up your wrists as much as with dumbells (this is actually hugely useful when doing high rep stuff as a little spin on a dumbell can really tweak your wrist).

-huge fun factor- something about these just makes me think 'toy' and get creative

Basically good stuff, though expensive. I used them exclusively for 8 months and got some very nice results using a variety of Pavel's methods.

The disadvantages-

-weight not adjustable
-cost


The ideas behind Power to the People and Pavel's stuff are sound and have their place in training, and this approach can be extremely useful for fighting development. That being said they're a stablizer and speed-strength-endurance tool, as well as general fitness, not a way to do too much for limit strength or speed-strength.

Andrew

[Ernie]

andrew was kind enough to turn one of my friends on to them a few months ago ,

and my friend '' who is just not human to begin with '' meaning his attributes , strentgh speed and so on are way above the average martial artist , i would dare say olympic athlete level . has fallen in love with them he has not gained any size '' not his goal '' but his power and explosiveness has improved as well as his flexability . not that this freak of nature needed to get any better .
but it proved that an already adavanced person can make drastic gains so a normal human being can get some great results .
soon as i get some extra cash i'll pick up a starter set and report back
:D

[Martin Foot]

I was curious because one of the guys at the gym, Lee Murray has apparently been using them in prep for the next UFC and the guys who train with him said that the improvement in his body strength has been considerable.

Andrew S,
do you need to get a pair of them, or is a single kettlebell good to go?
What weight would you recommend to start on?

What about the Club (Indian) bells, what the difference?

[Ultimatewingchun]

AndrewS:

Good information - I gotta look into this.

[FooFighter]

Martin:

I have been working with this Kettlebell for about a year or more now. Yes, they are expensive but worth the cost. I have gotten strong using them. I own several pairs of KBs and I suggest you get one 35Lb KB and Pavel's video or book on KB. Get started and you will notice great improvements in your martial performance. By the way, I highly recommend all of Pavel's body of work specially "Naked Warrior" if want to learn how to progressly learn to do single leg squats and single arm push ups and their variations. Doing single arm push ups in sun fist postion, especially plyometrically, is hand down the best exercise for developing your wing chun punching power and all the secondard attributes from doing them. I have not seen many Wing Chun martial artists perform this movement and this is a great skill to accomplish when done properly. I am more impress by this is than Benching to improve your punching power. I am not against lifting weight, but not everyone can go to a gym. Same goes from single leg squats with or without weight (KB). This would help bong gerk or other kicking techniques. You can do many KB wing chun specific movement exercises with them. For example, I modified an exercise which I learned from Sifu Lee. My personal favorite is doing snapping pak sao catches with my a KB. In one method, you get into your horse and hold your KB like you would in a tan sao position. Once you get your neutral stance, body right, arms and your elbows right, hold the KBs not in a Tan Sao grip but a palm down position. You drop the KB but you quickly pak and grap (without using your thumb) by its horn or handle in its originally position and then as fast possible let it go again and pak/catch it (without using your thumb) again. Repeat the movement. You have to imagine that you are paking a punch. Remeber to keep your structure and dont allow your elbow to move wildly, maintain good wing chun structure, and remember the other free arms should in its conventional wing chun chamber position. All theories of foward energy and structure is vital and practiced. Doing this exercise will improve your snapping pak sao power, develop your forearm, and will also train your horse. Oh yeah, make sure the ground is soft so you dont want to break your KB. Enjoy the sore forearms and shoulders after doing this exercise.

[Martin Foot]

Thank you FooFighter, very much appreciated

[FooFighter]

Martin,

No problem. Glad to be some help in this area and happy to read that MMA fighters are adapting new training methodology into their training programs. If there are any questions about Kbs, Pm me.

[FooFighter]

Martin,

Here is another KB wing chun specific exercise. As you know the back fist or perhaps an arrow punch is the milk and butter as an offensive attack in some wing chun schools, you can hold your KB and throw them as if you were going to throw an arrow punch or back fist. I didnt do this with my expensive KBs but a make shift one made from a bowling ball. However, if I lived near a beach or soft grass area, I would do this with my Pavel's KBs. I would suggest a 10Lb KB for this exercise. This helps develop explosive power behind your back fist and or arrow punch. Plus teaches how to work your footwork in addition to punch technique. Make you have good form in your punch technique before using external weight and dont do this exercise to muscular failure because this will only hinder good future peformance.

[AndrewS]

Ernie,

so Rob's still hooked, eh? Cool. Let me know when you want to get into the k-bell thing. I have an 18, a couple of 36s, 55s, and a 72, and am gonna pick up a 24 for Hope, maybe an 88 for me. We could do a couple workout thing sometime if your lady is into it.

Victor,

one beauty about k-bells- trained right they don't beat up your joints, and, in fact, are lovely for recovery workouts, and range of motion strength.

Foo,

interesting drill, I'll have to play with it.

Martin,

it's the approach, not the object. I can't say what bell is best for you- depends on your strength and conditioning. If you can single arm press a dumbell of similar weight overhead for a single rep, you should be able to work with a bell of that weight.

I haven't tried the club-bell thing yet. I understand the theory, but haven't had the time (and will probably go with sledgehammers for a bit before then).

A few other comments-

Interestingly, the one thing Pavel makes a big point about with k-bells is their populist nature compared to another sport- Olympic lifting. Curious that he considered that the only competition.

I was showing a buddy some k-bell stuff when sifu Emin walks by. He picks up the 36lb bell and starts doing walking lunges while making 3D figure eight passes around his body from between the legs to over the shoulders, around the head, around the legs, not breaking stride, and off-handedly say something like 'yeah, I used to use these all the time working with wrestlers'. Someday, I'm gonna sit that man down and pick his brain to find out all the conditioning stuff he's done- the breadth is staggering.

Andrew

[Ernie]

andrew
[[Ernie,

so Rob's still hooked, eh? Cool. Let me know when you want to get into the k-bell thing. I have an 18, a couple of 36s, 55s, and a 72, and am gonna pick up a 24 for Hope, maybe an 88 for me. We could do a couple workout thing sometime if your lady is into it.]]


mid summer should be the time , i am going to switch back to my old gym , were a bunch of fighters train and i plan on getting back in the ring , so i will be looking for a different type of wieght work out . if you come across any good deals on the kb let me know .

rob has gotten very creative with the kb as part of his training for his clients as well , you should rap with him about it . he will be fighting in june by the way .
p.s. stay a few feet away from him at all times he is very agro these days
:D

[Martin Foot]

I just put an order in for my first kettelbell at
http://www.intensefitness.co.uk/index.html good if you’re in the UK
Can't wait for it to arrive.

Thanks for the feedback

[Martin Foot]

Received my KB this morning from intensefitness. it is a very well made piece of kit and believe it or not looks great too.
My arms are sore already :eek:

If your in the UK and looking for KB's check out intensefitness, as the service was great, the product is very good, and the price is almost half of Pavels products in the UK.

[fa_jing]

Good that you found your KB on the cheap....

BTW, in case anyone is still looking to pick one up, I recommend starting with the 44lb. or the 53 lb if you are already in good shape. 35 lbs is too small given the cost, you will grow out of it quickly.

Two -KB exercises with two bells of equal weight are very useful as well.

PS seek out a lesson or 2 and watch Pavel's DVD. It takes about a month to get proficient with the basic exercises.
-Keith

[Martin Foot]

Thanks for the advice.

I actually ordered a hollow steel 35lb (16KG) KB which can be filled with sand to approx 62Lb (approx 28kg) or with lead shot to a massive 178lbs (81 kg). It was more expensive than a regular kbs and larger, but I reckoned it would save me money in the long run.
A Lesson will probably be a good idea.

[fa_jing]

For what it's worth, you should learn the exercises in this progression: Swing, Clean, Jerk (or push-press), Press, Snatch.

Swing is the most important as it is the foundation for both the clean and the snatch.

Figure 8 Under-the-legs pass is an easy one and can be learned at any time. It is a good one for learning to maintain/apply tension in your abs at the appropriate time. You also must take care to not round the lower back.

There are other exercises, but concentrate on the ones I listed first.

[Martin Foot]

fa_jing
I noticed I was getting a little discomfort in my lower back the other day, so I backed off the KB's for a few days. I started back on them today with more awareness for my lower back, it feels better already.
I have pavel's book on the KB's so I've checked out what you have mentioned. I also have an on going shoulder injury so I'm going to stay with the basic swing until my shoulder is better and to get the core muscles stronger before progressing