Explanation of the Martial Monk Paradox [Archive]

bungle

04-26-2004, 10:57 AM

Ok here we go. Looks like Moose has the best idea.

That they first developed primitive forms of combat that aimed at a method of cultivation. This form of combat naturally progressed into the vast system of shaolin arts we had at its peak.

Did i get that right moose?

Now i've read barefoot zen. There the author claims shaolin kung fu used grappling sets with no striking as a method of cultivation. He goes into fair detail and i'll start quoting if neccesary but i can see how this two man grappling could of served as the basis of shaolin kung fu.

Could anyone go into detail into how combat cultivates the mind? How especially it does this?

Thanks
Andy

Phenix

04-26-2004, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by bungle

Could anyone go into detail into how combat cultivates the mind? How especially it does this?

combat is dual. conscious thinking mind is dual. those cultivate duality. how is this get to non dual?

bungle

04-26-2004, 12:16 PM

I guess. What effect does it have upon the mind. Pheonix, you seem to be negating the fact that in order to work towards buddha mind we must first purify our deluded conceptual minds.

How does combat purify the mind?

Phenix

04-26-2004, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by bungle
Pheonix, you seem to be negating the fact that in order to work towards buddha mind we must first purify our deluded conceptual minds.

How does combat purify the mind?

How does combat purify the mind ? This is a great question!
How does those Anti-Qing mind purify the mind?

The stanza of Hui Neng said,

" fighting is a mind of win and lost,
That is the opposit of Dao
it raises to the me, others, living beings, and life span minds
How can this type of mind get one into Samadhi?"

What is a buddha mind?
Can it be worked toward?
is there a deluded conceptual minds to be purify?

Is the Shao Lin act opposite to what they preach?

bungle

04-26-2004, 12:41 PM

I think i have some answers. Figthing involves a life and death struggle involving great pain and suffering. In order to get anything easily we must let go of wanting it. The shaolin fighters can mindfully release all of the thoughts that arise from combat. That would probaly help a great deal.

Lessen their desires for:

Protection
Survival
Winning
aversion of pain and injury

Also increases concentration and teaches the mind to remain calm and and mindful even in the most stressful circumstances.

You're talking about ultimate and relative truths. Ultimately there is no mind and bla bla. We need to view things from a relative truth point of view because we cannot see the "ultimate truth" until enough of our attachments and aversions to our mind have been released.

The cloudy mirror. We can't see ****. We HAVE to clean it. Even thought it doesn't even exist.

The best way of putting it is somethin like this. We are unlimited beings that have been fooled into thinking we're beings with limited minds and in life we spend all of our time trying to complete ourselves externally in the outside world. When all along we were already complete.

You keep going back to this and you're not answering my question. Stop going round in circles. Be direct and be explanitory.

mantis108

04-26-2004, 12:53 PM

Martial arts basically is the art of expressing the human body in a combative form (not pattern). Here lies the problem. Some people intellectually choose to see the body (object) and mind (observer) as seperate entities. Others prefers to look at the mind-body continuum as holistic (no mirror and no bodhi tree). So there is no one "truth" way of combative form because people would choose the "appopritate" methodology to satisify their interests or their expression based on individual perspective of the relationship between the mind and the body.

Shaolin recognizes the mind-body continuum. The use of combative pattern (style specific skill set) is to promote devotion, which is a form or rather an expression of love much like compassion. This has root in Hindu traditions (Buddhist was born of Hinduism) as well as root in Taoist tradition (mainly medical aspect). BTW, you don't need combative pattern(s) to become a good fighter. Combative pattern(s) in Shaolin tradition is like sutras, it contains information specific to the spiritual outlook of the system besides the techniques. It can be "recited" or re-enacted by physical motions, it can be "absorbed" by medition and it can be "appreciated" by transmission. It is ORGANIC in nature; however, it can only be such when one recognizes, not just intellectually, the mind-body continuum. You can not share an actuall fight with another but you can share the knowledge, which is personal and intimate, of the combat through combative pattern that promote devotion and at the same time you show your compassion through the sharing.

Fighting is fighting. It is about survival and anyone can do it. It is a personal experience. You can't really share it because no two fights are the same. Combat on the other hand is about self-knowledge. It is a sharable experience and art form.

This is IMHO "how combat cultivates the mind and how especially it does this."

Mantis108

bungle

04-26-2004, 01:05 PM

You make a good point there.

I've heard there are advantages to using physical expression in terms of symbols. This is a big thing in relgion. The transmission through symbols.

The physical actions are symbolic and only understood by participating in two man combat. Much like the koan. They can only be understood intuitively.

The benefit of using symbols is that they in their essence are much harder to distort. Only their interpretation can be distorted.

I would say though. If combat were such a fantastic method to for cultivation then why didn't all of shaolin and all zen temples learn it?

As i understand it. Only martial monks learned shaolin kung fu.

GeneChing

04-26-2004, 01:41 PM

Flower arranging, for example, is a fine method of zen. Some just specialize in that. Martial arts is used as a method by other temples than Shaolin. Shaolin just became most famous for it. There is no 'one' method of zen but zen itself (now there's a paradox for you) so each seeker must travel their own path.

Martial arts has been a very good method, but I'm far from enlightened so it wouldn't really make too much sense for you to listen to my opinions of it as such a method. But FWIW, if you're curious why it makes such a good method, try it. Don't think about it. Just practice. For me, it becomes self evident rather quickly, but it's not necessarily something that is captured well in words.

If that fails, go to up flower arranging.

If that fails, go to the Southern baptists. ;)

bungle

04-26-2004, 01:55 PM

Ya. To be honest i'm rapidly losing interest. I was just using this forum as a distraction from things i should be doing really.

I whole heartedly agree with you Gene. Maybe i will when i get the opportunity. I'm particulary interested in wahnam stuff. Big ass claims but i see no reason why not to do it and see for myself.

At the moment though. I will try n make head way with my releasing n wot not.

GeneChing

04-26-2004, 02:07 PM

I was just using this forum as a distraction from things i should be doing really. Ain't that the truth!

Seriously, unless you're posting from the front lines in Iraq now, martial arts are largely a symbolic practice. If you take it on a metaphoric level, it's very easy to map on to the process of Zen. Then again, if you're good at zen mapping, so is flower arranging. Really, all these methods are like vehicles. Some people like big SUVs. Some people (like me) like hybrids. Both will get you to the mountain top. Find one that your comfortable driving. And when you get to the mountaintop (or at least so I'm told) one view of that panorama and you'll forget all about the car that got you there.

Da_Moose

04-29-2004, 06:14 AM

Bungle,

I hope you're still somewhat interested in your thread here. Sorry it's taken me so long to get in here, my PC has been very temperamental lately.

You pretty much got what I said before correct. Now you ask about how combat purify the mind? Good question!

IMHO, combat purifies the mind as is requires a presence of mind in the here and now. You cannot be worried about the bad sandwich you had at lunch or what's on TV tonight. These are distractions from the here and now and cause you to recieve reality checks (hits, kicks). If you mind is not focused on the moment, you will become a casulty of the situation in some way or another. Basically, you must live in the here and now, and not the past or the present. If you get hit in combat, you cannot dwell on it, you must move on, but you should also not plan to hit your opponent, as now you're in the future. I know this will sound cheesy, but oh well, it still applies:

"But Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future."
"But not at the expense of the moment. be mindful of the living Force, young Padawan."

The same holds true for us I believe, be mindful of your living space, not your space ten minutes from now or three hours ago. Combat teaches us to flow from moment to moment as needed, otherwise we are trapped and then we begin to die. Live in the moment, but do not become attached to it either. Attachments cause pain, as does wandering about aimlessly.

I hope this helps some.

You also may want to find a book entitled The Bodhisattva Warriors by Shifu Nagaboshi Tomio (Terence Dukes). It is a most interesting read that will shed some light on your queries about the monks and their martial practices!

Steve

P.S.

Phenix,

"How does those Anti-Qing mind purify the mind?"

What exactly does this mean? (and please answer with more than a question, maybe with your own thoughts or experiences please)

sean_stonehart

04-29-2004, 06:23 AM

Originally posted by GeneChing
If that fails, go to the Southern baptists. ;)

Dang Gene... had no idea you were so sadastic. Wishing that on somebody... :D

GeneChing

04-29-2004, 09:01 AM

Come on, I'm a professional martial artist. I've made my entire living from the martial arts for over a decade and a half and only a small portion of that was from teaching. You think I got to this position through flower arranging? The martial path is the most severe. Think about it. :cool:

PaulH

04-29-2004, 09:57 AM

"The priest Tannen used to say in his daily talks that : A monk cannot fulfill the Buddhist Way if he does not manifest compassion without and persistently store up courage within. And if a warrior does not manifest courage on the outside and hold enough compassion within his heart to burst his chest, he cannot become a retainer. Therefore, the monk pursues courage with the warrior as his model, and the warrior pursues the compassion of the monk.

I traveled about for many years and met men of wisdom but never found the means to the pursuit of knowledge. Therefore, whenever I heard of a man of courage in one place or another, I would go and look for him regardless of the hardships on the way. I have learned clearly that these stories of the Way of the Samurai have been an aid on the road to Buddhism. Now a warrior with his armor will rush into the enemy camp, making that armor his strength. Do you suppose that a monk with a single rosary can dash into the midst of spears and long swords, armed with only meekness and compassion? If he does not have great courage, he will do no dashing at all. As proof of this, the priest offering the incense at a great Buddhist memorial service may tremble, and this is because he has no courage. - Hagakure"

Phenix

04-29-2004, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
[B Do you suppose that a monk with a single rosary can dash into the midst of spears and long swords, armed with only meekness and compassion?.............." [/B]

Monk Nichiren, while the solder chop him with a samurai sword. He chant " Miuhorengen kiu" and raise his rosary. When the samurai sword hit his rosary, the sword broken, snap into two pices.

Nichiren's rosary is a tool of compassionate but not a weapon to against.

PaulH

04-29-2004, 12:35 PM

If One lives by the sword then he will die by the sword. But if one lives by grace then he will be protected by it. If not, it is time to die with no regret. One always has a choice on how he should live.

Regards,
PH

Phenix

04-29-2004, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
If One lives by the sword then he will die by the sword. But if one lives by grace then he will be protected by it. If not, it is time to die with no regret. One always has a choice on how he should live.

Regards,
PH

there is a big different between a duality conscious thinking intended drive movements and a non duality induce movements.

When movements and rosary have no different. That is the state where the Zen monk rest.

Chan Chuan yee Rou or "Zen and martial art is one alike" describe about non dual induce movements , and not the conscious thinking intended one.

As mother teresa said " I dont match to against war. if you need help to match for peace, count me in."

GeneChing

04-30-2004, 02:22 PM

...to bring up the sword of manjushri? :cool:

Phenix

04-30-2004, 04:48 PM

A martial art without deep rooted in a great solid philosophy cannot last long.

But then philosophy is not just some wise word, but needs to be a description of the reality.

That is the tough part. a description of the reality and not a derivation of thoughts.

I like how oyama put it when he was asked about Killing the Bull.

Oyama said that it is not a show business that some karate ka killing a bull. It is not about agression. It is beyond win or lost. And somedays, he hope that some one will understand that it is about stretching one's capability to the ultimate limit. And then, his own sweat and blood and the bull's life contribute to a higher purpose of transcending to higher state of mankind.

In the lecture of Hsu Yun, the Zen patriach of China around 1950.
He lectured that there was martial monks and martial lamas and what kind of colour thiere clothing were. how the martial lamas burn the westerner's church while in 1900's. and how these martial lamas got kill by the westerner army. as an example of cause and effect of killing karma. He who killed will be killed.

So, are these martial monks and martial lamas are real monks? That is a good question to be research into.

bungle

05-01-2004, 09:26 AM

Thanks for that reply Moose.

I think it is probaly important to point out that pain, life and death stuff and violence work at our most base primitive level. So overcoming these instinctual reactions probaly frees the practioner even more than meditation alone.

I've notice that when i'm releasing i can get some pretty good releases and bring up energy on just about anything i can imagine. Therefore, if i'm afraid of going to the corner shop cos of muggers then i might release my fear. First of all release my thoughts on the subject and imagine going through the motions to bring up the thoughts and feelings. Then release them.

However, it is possible that i missed something or that maybe my imagination isn't powerful enough. Remember i'm a beginner sedona method user. So i could then progress to actually walking to the shop and releasing whatever comes up while doing that and finally clearing everything totally out.

I think maybe that martial arts can work in a similar way. I'm not a 100% sure on this though. I think releasing ability and intelligence have a lot to do with it too.

However. I guess we have to remember that the motivation of an enlightened person doesn't lie in the realm of desire or thought. So we can never understand fully what motivation there was for developing a martial art until we rise above thinking for the answers.

As for the cause and affect of karma. Enlightened folk are supposed to be free from karma. Karma is generated by thought. So, i have a feeling an enlightened guy could kill another and not bear karma. Karma is part of the illusion. Saying that, i'm sure not all martial monks were enlightened. In fact i'm getting the impression that maybe few actually were. Almost getting the feeling that it was a sort of lesser path of devotion to the temple.

Anyone know of any other buddhist temples with martial monks?

Thanks
Andy

Phenix

05-01-2004, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by bungle

As for the cause and affect of karma. Enlightened folk are supposed to be free from karma. Karma is generated by thought. So, i have a feeling an enlightened guy could kill another and not bear karma. Karma is part of the illusion.

it is a serious misconception in Buddhism that Enlightened folk are supposet to be free from karma. that is what it is calld the Wild fox Zen misconception.

There is an account in Chan buddhism about a term "wild fox Zen".
An enlightenment monk was faced by an old man. The old man asked him. Is the Great enlightenment cultivator do not subject to karma? The Zen master said " Great enlightment cultivator is aware clearly about karma."
The next day, there is a crop of old fox around the temple. When the enlightenment monk knows about it. He said, the fox has transcent. The fox is a chan cultivator who thought and trap in the concept of " the cultivator is free from karma. Now he has found the answer thus left his fox body.
That was the story of the term Wild fox Zen. misconception.
Why is this important? because mental state will raise in meditation or Zhan Zhuan. and one has to know how to deal with it.

Those who master Qi gung and Yoga well actually has understanding about the Skandal of Rupa. Daoist who can produce astral travel will has understaning of the Skandal of emotion. There is a clear process of how all these stuffs being cultivate.

Thus, the shao lin martial art secret recorded --- Shao Lin first training is about the immovable wisdom or the unfletter mind. With it one will be able to travel into the Skandal of rupa and reberate it, then continous on to the skandal of emotion....

as said in the Prajna paramita heart sutra:

The boddhisatva of contemplating himself/herself, cultivating deep prajna paramita after awhile, saw non subjectively the five skandal are emptiness ( lively flux).....

For the enlightement one, Karma is the application of the Buddha Nature.

paradox is because general's thought pattern is a linear thought pattern.

Da_Moose

05-01-2004, 09:59 AM

Bungle,

Nice to hear your thoughts! You made some interesting points.

"As for the cause and affect of karma. Enlightened folk are supposed to be free from karma. Karma is generated by thought. So, i have a feeling an enlightened guy could kill another and not bear karma. Karma is part of the illusion."

I don't quite agree with you on the 'karma is generated by thought.' Karma simply exists in my opinion, its not good or bad, its just there. If you're lazy today, your health suffers tomorrow. In my system's training, there is a philosophy regarding karma and killing/hurting an individual.

"To outsiders it looks like fighting; to a monk it is maintaining harmony of space."

If someone enters my space with intent to harm me, I am not reacting to their intent. I am simply reacting to my space, trying to restore it to its previous state of harmony. The more energy I am attacked with, the more respond with to clear my space. It is nothing personal towards my attacker, I have as much right to exist as he does. However, if he runs into a wall, is it the wall's fault? Nope, its the individual's fault. I am simply maintaining my space, not going out of my way to harm anyone. His self-destruction is karma. He asked a question and couldn't handle the answer. If he is killed, so be it, I wasn't fighting him, I was trying to restore my harmony. Why was he close enough for me to hit / destroy him?

bungle

05-02-2004, 12:15 AM

Thanks for all the information. Sounds scary.

Getting back to my original question. How was the white lotus cult connected to shaolin? Anyone know? I'm not sure if the characters in Iron Monkey are accurate at all but the monks did display skill in Kung Fu. I'm assuming then that they were supposed to be trained in Shaolin kung fu.

A long time ago i seem to remember reading something about a cult taking over shaolin for a short period. Have i got my memory banks and wires totally screwed up?