troops before the general

[IRONMONK]

I have been recently reading "on single combat" by Keith Kernspecht.He decribes the head being the general and the hands as the troops.The head/general should be kept back and the troops/hands should do the fighting.
Also when punching the fist should move before the body.The reason given is that the hands overcome the inertia of the body.Also explains that it adds power/bodyweight to the punch(talks about how jack dempsey and Bruce lee using the same concept)
I have experimented this stuff with my training partners and found that when someone attacks me by entering my magnetic zone it works quite well.
But i found the following problems:

1.if i want to attack someone preemptively and especially against a taller person(longer range) its impossible to hit them by moving my fist first.The only way i can cover the distance is by moving in first and then hitting when i am close enougth.However the drawback with this is the punch isnt as powerful when the fist hits before the foot lands.

2.i have seen so many ppl chain punch the air coz they are using the habd before foot idea.And when they eventually land a punch the fist is hitting the surface i.e the elbow is not low/deep/bent at impact the arm is locked out and they havent invaded the opponents stance(not destroying the balance)

Ok these are my thoughts i would like to know what everyone else thinks of this hand before foot idea?do you use it?any tips would be appreciated.

Thank you,
faze.

[Gangsterfist]

I have heard this many times by sifu and others. When someone gets caught chasing limbs sifu would always say:

Why are you attacking the army, when you can just go for the general.

In wing chun (at least how we train) we stand in a side nuetral stance not giving anything to our opponet and making all of our weapons available.


1.if i want to attack someone preemptively and especially against a taller person(longer range) its impossible to hit them by moving my fist first.The only way i can cover the distance is by moving in first and then hitting when i am close enougth.However the drawback with this is the punch isnt as powerful when the fist hits before the foot lands.

I see your point here, but I have trained it differently. We train to strike with the whole body, so moving into range and striking should all be one motion. However, fights are not that clean cut and sometimes its better to establish position before you strike.

Its all circumstancial.

[anerlich]

I'm having trouble visualising how this would work.

It seems to me that you can move your hand a lot quicker than you can move the rest of your body, and step, so if you want to hit someone while moving in on them surely you need to step first if you want to hit with maximum hand speed (you do, don't you?) and get bodyweight behind the strike.

The greater the dstance you have to step in, the earlier your body needs to move. It seems that is why with the hand first approach your hand hits before the step completes.

IMO you should get into hitting range before you try to hit.

Maybe there's sometnig in the explanation that I missed, but that's how it appears to me. I'll have to read Championship Fighting tonight and see if Dempsey really says that too.

[anerlich]

Dempsey deos not appear to have advocated the "punch before step" approach. From Ch10 of "Championship Fighting" - "Relaying and Exploding", he describes how to punch:

"Now that you've got the feel of the stepping jolt, let's examine it in slow motion to see exactly what you did.

"First, the falling step launched your body weight straight at the target at which your left toe was pointing.

"Secondly, your relaxed left hand shot out to relay that moving body-weight along the power line to the target BEFORE THAT MOVING BODY-WEIGHT COULD BE RELAYED TO THE FLOOR BY YOUR DESCENDING LEFT FOOT.

"Thirdly, the convulsive, desperate grab in your explosion accomplished the following:

"(a) caused the powerful muscles of your back to give the left shoulder a slight surging whirl toward your own right.

"(b) psychologically "pulled" the moving body-weight into your arm with a sudden lurch.

"(c) gave a lightning boost to the speed of your fist.

"(d) froze your fist, wrist, arm, and shoulder along the power line at the instant your fist smashed into the target.

"(e) and caused terrific "follow through" after the explosion. "

This doesn't sound ANYTHING like "hand before step" to me.

As a lot of Tao of JKD was notes made from the Dempsey book, I'm betting Bruce Lee followed a similar philosophy.

"Champoionship Fighting" is out of print, but you can find a transcription at

http://go.to/stickgrappler

IMO excellent reading for any serious martial artist.

[foolinthedeck]

its a weak and cowardly general who follows his troops, +++++++++ lead from the front, as did garibaldi - these are true generals.

dont forget about headbutts - should the hands lead the head or the head lead the hands?

movement should ideally be simultaneous, if the troops move before the general how can he control them? if you split your body into pieces - by which means tapping into the whold subject object metaphysics that ruins our world... but anyway, you are one thing, there is no distinction. In fact you and your opponent are one, there is no separation. when you find the oneness, just make contact, and it is there.

also, when punching, is your punch coming from the fist and not the elbow? where is the power coming from if the fist moves first? is a punchs power like a steam train or like a whip? imagine trying to use a whip by moving the tip first?

where is your magnetic zone?

if you find it is impossible against a taller opponent, something must be wrong... "impossible" ? it just sounds as if something must be wrong..

does anyone know what i mean?

[anerlich]

dont forget about headbutts - should the hands lead the head or the head lead the hands?

The hands lead, by controlling the head and neck of the opponent, and to allow you to pull him in while you drive your head into his face or temple.

[foolinthedeck]

anerlich,
you are correct (IMO). but it still seems more like a headbutt is an elite cavalry charge which follows the bridging of skirmishers or a phalanx.. i beleive +++++++++s victory at guagamela is a typical example of how elite cavalry companions can be used in such a devastating way...

to take things further:
if the hands are the troops.
is the head the general? or is it the dantien? or the stance? the intent?

if all parts of the body must fight then the general must also be a warrior.

the army of wing chun is not expressed through a metaphor of general and troops, but through all aspects of the art of war.

[foolinthedeck]

"alexandros"

[cobra]

As I have been taught when defending, Hands before feet.
When attacking, Feet before hands. Just because you move hands before feet doesn't mean you need to extend unnecessarily if you aren't in range.

Good Luck

[anerlich]

cobra,

yeah, hands first makes much more sense when the guy's coming at you.