Wong shung leung and Tsui Seung Tin methods...

[S.Teebas]

Hey all,

I was wondering if anyone here has trained in both the wong shung leung and Tsui Seung Tin linages of WC care to make any comments about the differences.... i hear that Wong sheung leung changed some of the idea to make it more efficent, and i have also heard that the chi sau is very compact compared to others...

any comments???

[rp]

Just based on my experience of training under WSL and training WITH a TST student.

The WSL way is much more direct - the objective is to hit/attack the opponent. My friend's method was to CONTROL the opponent.

TST's way is very powerful - just different approach.


rp

[S.Teebas]

Interesting... i myself am Tsui sheung tin liange, and have noticed the strong emphasis on control. I also admire the WSL method as an excellent interpretation of WC.

This raises the question of is power control??....and is control power??? or are they both the same... just different ways of achieving the same goal i guess :)

S.Teebas

[Martial Joe]

S.Teebas,Have you heard the stories about Tsui and the Tai Chi master?

[fei_jai]

Isn't easier to hit/strike through if you have control?? Control of what? control of the hands? or control of the opponent's balance.

If you have control of their hands, you have the upper hand, in that they cant really hit. But if you have control of their balance, not only cant they hit, but you can hit almost at will.

Dave

[S.Teebas]

Martial Joe,

I have not heard of these stories....fill me in dude!


S.Teebas

[rp]

My experience was that TST student (who was of many years) would over stick to the hands to keep them out of the way. This meant that opportunities to attack were lost.

The WSL way of thought advises that all actions are offensive. The purpose is to hit the opponent with continuous firm blows. Forward pressure is used to assist the reflex sensitivity for "lut sau jik cheung".

The forward pressure described by Armin in another post is not merely from the arms but from the stance and relative positions of the opponents. This pressure is like a coiled spring ready to explode towards the other guy.

The forward pressure does not mean we are leaning or bulling in.

My friend from TST's school has this power but when we trained I would think "s--t I'm f--ked" but because he was preoccupied with controlling my arm he missed the chances and I could recover and attack.

Control of the arms is different from controlling the body. The latter can be used to keep the opponent off balance if necessary by using strong balanced movement to disturb the other chaps centre. This concept can be misused if someone merely trys to play with an opponent who may recover and counter.

Controlling the arms can develop to fighting the arms where ones focus is centred on the enemy's arms and not the body. Basically the VT guy does a tremendous technique to the arm - say pak sao, the other chap is not phased and brushes the painful spanking away. Fighting the body would mean the same technique is focused through the arm at the opponent resulting in distrubed balance for follow up.

As the student becomes more advanced the arms are ignored and by timing and positioning attacks and "blocks" become one and are aimed at the body.

I think I've waffled a bit but to summarize both methods are kool and have the tools - its just that little bit at the end that makes the difference.

To summarize

[benny]

I think alot of vt people take sticky hands to literaly. you stick till there is an oportunity to strike. to many people play with the hands and not the person

[S.Teebas]

RP,
Thanks for your insight and your perpesctive. Im sure you know that each peson has different ideas/interpretations of WC...just like your friend.

It is true that we do concentrate on controle in Chi-Sau, but thats where the sticking ends. I know some guys in my class fight like machine guns fireing non-stop till the opponent is down when the sparing begins, and with all the emphasis on control during chi-sau practice...it's like your fighting a rock (by this i mean the structure of the WC guy...not how soft he/she is or the flow)... we strive for the optimal structural postition during chi sau, and dont find it necessary to hit the opponent (during chi-sau...not sparing)...as we both know that a strike is easily attainable.

Not to mention the different people studying under Tsui...they each have their own interpretations (not saying that this guys is wrong...just different)

Who was your friend studying under??

Fair enought... you are simply speaking from your experience about you and your friend..... but i would like to point out that we aim to disrupt the opponents ballance in every movement, aiming for the centre of gravity. We dont try to move their hands around...to be honest after chi sauing with someone i am not even aware of what my hands/body was doing, just responding to their energy while attacking their centre. (using whole body).

I think our ideas are a lot more similar than you might think.. Just traing is different. I know you WSL guys like to fight! :) In the future i would like to train with some guys from the WSL linage .....i have heard many good things about Barry Lee in particular. But for now i should concentrate on what is infront of me.

Good luck in your training for the future.

S.Teebas

[benny]

well my sigung is Barry lee and he is amazing.
just a question but what d you mean when you say
"and dont find it necessary to hit the opponent (during chi-sau...not sparing"
thats what you do it for. arent you training your body not to hit when you have the oppertunity. the whole point of chi sa is to program certain responses to the appropriate force/action.

[fei_jai]

During chi sau, you can be working on different things, such as structure, focus...

Just because you can sometimes feel a gap in your opponent, it's not necessary to hit through. Being able to feel gaps is good, automatically hitting through is the next step. Better to train the arms to be sensitive to everything, directions of force etc. By *trying* to hit through everytime, isn't always good for chi sau development. Sometimes it's better to work on your structure, moving your structure, relaxing in your motions. Even concentrating on getting a particular motion right.

The main emphasis is not training to hit through, it's training to feel... Once you can feel, you can do whatever.

Dave

[WCK]

With regard to TST lineage:
I dont think in TST lineage the students are preoccupied with forward force, because you are suppose to use your whole body structure.

People who are not using their structure to do chi sau will be thinking about forward force, and this might account for the 'loss of the attack'.
If you are well positioned and using the correct structure that is absorbing your opponents force, then you should have no problem in sparring situation.
Chi sau so follow this 'there is force, but then there is no force'. This idea is simple if you have practice chi sau for a long time.

[fei_jai]

I'm in the TST lineage, and forward force is something we are almost constantly preoccupied with.

However, our forward force is generated using our stance, structure, angles etc. Mentally projecting our body mass through our structure and into our opponents centre.

Dave

[S.Teebas]

Benny,
When a senior trains with a junior he doesn't go as hard as he can because he can...if this were the case what would be the advantage for the junior???...he would just get the crap beaten out of him and not learn anything (well this is our thoughts anyway).

Although this would be an example of restraining one's self from training for real life implementation, This is simply a curtusy (cant spell??) not a weekness in holding back. I guess the same analogy can be taken to as why us guys chi sau this way (not hitting at every opportunity)... Im not saying that this other guy was better than you RP...its juts the way we train, we see or feel a potential hit, and as you said it like "fu(k, i could get nailed here" we know it ..the other guy knows it so we have nothing to prove by throwing the punch...just the way we train, i guess it's a school thing. The guys in my school say that this way the other guy get a chance to work on his chi sau instead of getting worrying about getting hit..this way we use chi sau to train and progress. But we still have the feeling of real fighting when we spar, and i guarantee that sh!t loads of punches get exchanged when we spar. :)

Im not at all saying that if you train the other way that it is bad.... it's simply the perspective that our school takes when we train. (and we all have the oportunity to choose the way we train).

Hope this answers your question without pi$ anyone off. (hard to do these days)

S.Teebas

[benny]

we have two school in newcastle and the other is a tst/ jim fung/toni Bardakos and both our teachers are friends so we train with each other often and i have found that they hit just like us at any opportunity.
training and not hitting a junior to learn techniques I understand but that what you learn the traps for and once sifu thinks you can do it you do chi sao. the tempo is ajusted to fit each person but true chi-sao is fast and hard.
and if they are worried about being hurt how do they fight.
"if your afraid to be hit you will be hit"
old ving tsun saying ;)

[fei_jai]

I'd disagree that true chi sao is fast and hard...
I've actually found it more beneficial to do chi sao slowly. This way, you have more control of your focus and force direction throughout the entire movement. I'd say true chi sao is maintaining focus, structure, forward force, relaxation, stance, EVERYTHING. Doesn't matter how slow/fast or hard/soft it is.

Dave

[rp]

Dear Teebas, My friend studied for 10 years under TST himself. In fact I think he was better than me I am just commenting on the difference in technique.

If you don't throw the punch, you may be misled into thinking the attack is easy. In fact your opponnent can counter and so on...

Not every opportunity in chi sau will be fulfilled and the skills you develop will train you to handle difficulties if someone blocks your attack.

By hitting at every opportunity we are making a habit. To pull/hold the attack is not the habit you want to develop for reality.

I also know other TST students who were mean fighters but I had not trained with them. I think their way is good - but I prefer WSL (of course I am biased)!! :D

[fei_jai]

When I hear the phrase "to hit at every opportunity" I understand it to mean when you feel a gap, hit through. This, to me, really implies that you *try* and hit through, which in turn implies a certain amount of effort. When I do my chi sau, I always try and make it effortless, whilst maintaining forward force, structure, focus etc. I'm not thinking about hitting through, or even feeling for gaps.

The hit comes through as a result of proper focus and forward force. It's not something you have to think about. When I "roll", I can sometimes feel gaps in my opponent, but I dont actively take it. The reason is, that to first feel a gap, then strike through it, is (to me) the wrong thing to do. If there is a gap, your hands should "fall" through it to strike your opponent. No thought processes about "Oh, gap! Strike!"

Dave

Just for the sake of clarification, as far as I understand about TST's method, the whole idea of controlling in sticking hand does not refer to controlling the opponent's arms. The idea is to control the opponent's balance. The two are different.
In my opinion, once a person's balance is captured, he will not be able to exert any power, by that time, he will become an easy victim. I know a darn good TST's Wing Chun practitioner who is able to control a person's balance upon contact.
This to me makes more sense because the main objective of sticking hands is to learn how to feel, react, listen, control, and respond according.
The ability to hit is secondary because once you can capture a person's balance, you can hit him at will.
Only this way can both parties have a constructive chi sao session, don't get me wrong, taking the initiative to hit occassionally does NO harm.
Nevertheless, chi sao is chi sao, it is conducted in a training platform, freestyle chi sao or sparring is another different issue.

Disclaimer: The explanation above does not intend to belittle any approach or expound any approach, just to highligh some ideas which I believe is part of TST's Wing Chun system.

[S.Teebas]

Benny...i must have used the wrong words if the impression you got was that we are afraid to be hit. I believe we use chi sau as a tool for really honing all our skills such as structure, relaxation, using the centre and focus...all good points that fei jai raised. I guess we figure that there is so much of this to learn we want to devote as much time to perfecting our skills as we can.

If you feel that hard and fast chi sau is the best way for you...then go for it! :) It all boils down to what you think is the best method for progressing in WC. As i said before we do chi sau to hone our skills and to work on what stage of development in WC we are at...we also do chi-sau sparing, and sparing in it's self.... so i guess we still cover all the angels.

I dont train at a jim fung school, although i did for a few years... my current training is very different to theirs. I wonder if you could possibly tell me an out line of what you guys do in a typical WSL-system class??

S.Teebas

[WCK]

I think you are right, if you dont practice the hard way (chi sau) then you will be less prepared if the real thing comes along.

Chi sau should be practiced through sparring (of course this is for advance students), you start to learn real chi sau when you get hit.

Getting hit is not neccessarily a bad thing, it helps you to react to the movements and the next time the body will automatically defend a similar attack.

With regards to fei jia's comment:
I am in TST lineage as well, and initially the chi sau training is based on forward force, but later on the forward force is no longer the physical force of your arms. Forward force is really your mental determination to strike the particular point. When you have attain this level it is so easy to coordinate the body. preoccupation = anticipation will be gradually eliminated.

This is my opinion.

[Troy]

tell us of these stories

-The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war-

[fei_jai]

Yes, I know...

Forward force is never physically pushing forward with the arms. I think I mentioned it as a mental focus... but that's exactly what I was saying.... well... maybe not directly..

Dave

[tiger_1]

for W.C.L.style im mean is that fast and penetration is have that big speed so onthers texnic cant be real defence again him . just 3 texnic in fight have W.C.L. and chi sao of 9 texnic . - just my opinion friendly tiger_1 ;)

/

[Martial Joe]

I just watched a Wong Shun Leung tape today at my sifues house.When he did Chum Kui I wanted to touch myself in naughty placs.(not realy) but it was so impressive!


Joe Kavey

[ATENG]

hey martial joe why you holding back on the TST and taichimaster stories?

---------------------
Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

[popsider]

Does anyone know where you can get the wsl tape in the UK? I've been after it for a while.

[dave the dragon]

i would also like to know where in the uk to aquire this tape c'mon spill the beans!!

[S.Teebas]

Yeah, i wouldn't mind seeing this video myself...Hey "benny" or "vingtsunstudent" im pretty sure u guys are in newcastle (NSW)...does your school carry the tape???

[jameswebsteruk]

Hello chaps,
The only WSL tape I know of (Correct me if Im wrong) is "Wing Chun: The Science of InFighting".

You can get it from Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6305884129/o/qid=988887832/sr=8-4/ref=aps_sr_v_2_1/002-6605256-3745665

And if you order now, you can get it by Mothers Day! Thats for all of you with Bad Muthas... :p

[Watchman]

Thanks, man. My copy is on the way!

[dave the dragon]

that version is not playable on uk format though is it ? america and canada only. anybody know where in England a copy of this tape can be found. it would be really useful to me .!!!"!!

[WCFish]

There seem to be many subtule variations between the TST and WSL systems. Everything from the way things are explained to the way they're performed.
With regards to chi sau, although the emphasis, according to some of the posts, seems to be on 'forward force' and 'trying to hit the man' etc, it is also very important to maintain the correct 'facing' and distance as you move around at various angles.This, after all, is what you will need to do in a fight if you want to use your 'forward force' to hit and control your opponent.
Also, I would not be surprised if there is a huge difference in TST schools depending on the teacher, as this seems to be the case with WSL schools. They all talk the same stuff but from what I've seen and heard there is alot of variation

[benny]

WCKhi
no im not with jim fung the other school in newcastle is.
im from the wsl barry lee
S.Teebas
a usual class is
15min warm up
30 min form
10min cerecting the form
1hr dan chi chi sao
finish with punching


martial joe
which video is that as he is not doing chum kui in the video you can buy?

i think the process of learning rolling is to teach you to feel gaps and stepping teaches you to open those gaps from the inside. this does not mean "wait theres a gap" and hit. with proper forward pressure you hand will flow through without thought(as someone said). but you should be able to do this before you start chi-sao.
if your opponent is also not attacking you then how is it applicable to real fighting. if both of you are there going "i could have hit you then" how are you practicing to stop punches from an attacker.
the thing that makes ving tsun better then any other style is the fact that chi sao teaches you to react instinctivly(sp?)without thought to any situation. in other words its teaching you a habit and not hitting someone is a bad habit to get. that is why you try to chi-sao with as many people as you can. in a real fight as soon as you arm touches his you body goes"ive chi-saoed against that type of force/person i need to do this" to teach your body how to do this you must practice hitting as some as your opponent allows it. to teach someone to feel it but not move is adding the brain into it and i know mine is way to slow.
"if you have to stop and think its too late"
barry lee