hasn't been discussed in a while

[red5angel]

for you kungfu, standup, stirking type guys, what is your best response to some of the more common takedown type attacks, like the shoot? Is it a technique that is trained within your arts framework or system or was it somehting you picked up elsewhere?

[MasterKiller]

Ou main defense against the takedown is similar to this video:

http://www.groundfighter.com/uploads/videos/UltimateTakedownsVol5.ra

We practice a similar move in some of our forms.

[CaptinPickAxe]

In Shuai Chiao, I was taught to shoot the lead leg back and controll the attacker with a forearm to the crook between the shoulder and neck. This leaves the option for a crucifix or numberous other neck holds. Out of habit, I try to step around and light up his kidneys. I'm trying to break that habit, seeing how its not always an option to escape.

[red5angel]

so just maintaining a strong leg and kneeing down when the guy comes in?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
so just maintaining a strong leg and kneeing down when the guy comes in? You step back so they can't grab both legs. The wide stance makes it hard for them to get you off balance. At the same time, you use the knee on the front leg to push down on their shoulder and push their head down with your hands.

[Ray Pina]

Drive the lead knee out into them instead of sprawling or backing out .... combine this with an elbow from the back hand after the lead hand has popped the target.

[red5angel]

I think I'm using a combination of captainpickaxes and MK's. I step back with my back leg, sowide stance, but then drive my elbow down into the back of their neck. This tends to get me down on the ground but so far I haven't minded going to the ground.

[CaptinPickAxe]

MK has taken the correct to a tailor and bought it a new dress so it looks good when he makes it his b!tch.

Its like a bow stance. It gives you that split second to take the initiative and put the attacker in a hold or throw.

Another thing we practiced was sort of like a kick to the crotch, grab his jacket (shoulders or what have you), and fall backward into a roll. You end up in a mount. Its a cool little roll. Man, I miss Shuai Chiao.

[David Jamieson]

sprawl and drive the shooters head to the ground.

step off (evade) and deflect the shooter.

move back with the shooter while exerting downward pressure on the shooter.

There's a few more defense to the shoot and of course, if ya get caught and lifted, you get caught and lifted.

cheers

[Ray Pina]

Have you guys ever tried shooting out into that stance instead of stepping back into it?

I've been having good success with this. The intended target winds up in their face with a lot of momentum, power and drive and all focused on the knee to their tucked chin.

From there, then use the back leg as a control center along with the forearm, ect. And I agree with Captain, there are A LOT of head lock opportunities when someone presents their head that way.

[red5angel]

Have you guys ever tried shooting out into that stance instead of stepping back into it?

I've had no real luck with this. I think for me it's a timing thing, I just can't seem to time it right so that it would be effective enough to make it worth it.

[backbreaker]

Well, you see, in Taiji , there's this thing called peng. Other people I have seen call it " wall energy". Taiji is an inside-fighting art, or close wrestling standing for the most part. Basically you have to be able to accept and take what's dished out to you, and internally keep your structure, and fight inside before you ever get to the ground. And important things involved in taking the power, and getting inside to fight, will be the shoulder, and the hip, and knowing left, right, and center equilibrium and all the regular stuff, sweeps, shuai chiao, fajin, elbows, qinna.;) :p

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
Have you guys ever tried shooting out into that stance instead of stepping back into it? In our forms, we practice this move moving forward instead of stepping back. But usually, I'm not quick enough to recognize the shoot in time to step into it, so I step back to keep them from getting the double-leg.

[Face2Fist]

you all guys would get taken down quick and owned. its funny how you f'ers talk about how to defend a takedown when you guys dont know sh*t about wrestling or groundfighting...

why dont you just stick to your chicken forms and shut up

[red5angel]

actually that credit shoud go to e-fist there MK, I was just quoting him.

wow face2fist, I give you a -10 for subtlety in your trolling skills.


I think part of my instinct at the moment is to step back and it was easiest for me to translate that to stepping back with my back leg while "rooting" with my forward leg, and either using my forearm or knee to try to deflect/catch the shoot.

[backbreaker]

That takedown defense video is cool. You have to move from your center or you will have either a collapsed knee or hip. Like this video sort of a little bit, even though the better internal guy is the bigger guy

http://www.brainsalad.com/mov/clip06.mov

[Ray Pina]

Timing hasn't been an issue for me, but that may just be because we step into everything with the same basic shape ... just a little bit more knee here, or a little bit more elbow shielding there, ect.

The hardest part is actually training this at 100%, or lets' say 85-90& for sake of the forum, because when it connects, even with gear, it's pretty nasty. You have your entire body coming forward making contact with the other's upperchest/head focused on the knee.

Playing with some friends I've connected a few and we had to stop. And holding back of course leads to getting dumped. I've seen enough of it though to have confidence that it works and just continue to train the structure.

[Merryprankster]

Its a cool little roll.

That almost never works, IME. It does work on newbies.

Face2Fist, I think I can speak for all of us when I say, "You're wrong." What will more than likely get them taken down is not the initial movement, which is more or less correct, it's the general lack of follow up. If you hit the guy, and he doesn't let go, he's still got your leg. Now, if he's just sitting there like a lump, then you're still good.

But, the minute I feel that wide stance come into place, and/or the knee start to pressure, I'm turning the corner or coming out the back door. If your hands are busy hitting me, they are NOT busy shutting down side movement. And at this point, getting your leg free and getting back to where you want to be is paramount.

In actuality, most people with some time in turn the corner as soon as they contact you, using your leg as a post to turn around. Turning the corner and getting to the side is the name of the game in takedowns. It's much easier...

Secondly, the general tack of the defenses being discussed are useful for the low single, are less useful for other penetration step/shooting style takedowns.

This is one reason why the sprawl is such a recommended tool for the arsenal. One answer for all the leg attacks and it allows you to maintain your feet, strip the opponent off and follow up strong.

[red5angel]

MP - how do you recommend countering that side ways movment when someone who knows what their doing makes contact? I know what your talking about because more often then not, taht is exactly why I get dumped. do you think there is an effective way to stop this without sprawling or going to the ground? Essentially how would you control the sides if I told you to win, you couldn't hit the ground?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
If your hands are busy hitting me, they are NOT busy shutting down side movement. And at this point, getting your leg free and getting back to where you want to be is paramount. We aren't trained to hit, we are trained to use our hands and elbows to push down on the head and neck. Is that any better, or will it still get me pwnd?

[Merryprankster]

Red5,

You can sprawl without hitting the ground. This is the tactic I recommend. It's called a buck back. When you see the guy shooting get your hands or forearms on his shoulders and "ride" his momentum backwards. You will be in an EXCELLENT follow up position.

MK,

If you are just pressing on his head and neck, he'll post on his forehead and spin to turn the corner. i recommend a three quarter nelson.

[MasterKiller]

Is a neck crank a suitable defense against a single-leg if they get the lift?

[Ray Pina]

With a right lead:

Shoot right knee out and keep a strong posture, keep hands in center, elbows down.

Now, the right hand may or may not go out for a head shot but also to set up the back hand elbow strike that travels up the center, like an uppercut.

If the guy breaks to my right, that right lead elbow goes out to maintain contact as I also change.

If he breaks left, that left elbow can cause some major damage. It can also be over comminted and he can get around and suplex me.

This is fighting. Two people with things to do but who does the right thing at the right time and who changes better plus a little lucky gues work ... when both are equal. When not equal, the better guy can do almost anything and win.

Good thread.

[Merryprankster]

how are you doing this neck crank?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
how are you doing this neck crank? Grab the chin/jaw from underneath, grab the ear/hair from top and twist.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Grab the chin/jaw from underneath, grab the ear/hair from top and twist.

A good single leg has the guy's head on the inside, pressed against your body/thigh. Getting a grip like that and putting any sort of power into it == very, very low percentage.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by FatherDog


A good single leg has the guy's head on the inside, pressed against your body/thigh. Getting a grip like that and putting any sort of power into it == very, very low percentage. Better to hook under the outside arm and try to break their balance?

[Merryprankster]

Well, even a high-crotch single (head on outside) is going to turn the corner fast. The issue is also one of balance disruption. He's going to be lifting driving and turning all at the same time. Leverage becomes a problem if you don't secure your base.

If you really like your defense, I really think you should try a three quarter nelson.

Put your inside hand on the guy's head, and get an over hook on his outside arm (the one outside your leg--lateral for you medical types) with your other arm. Snake your arm underneath his armpit and get hold of your own wrist. You can use this grip to tear his hold off your leg - you'll have to use your legs and hips in conjunction with this of course.

Keep the pressure on and follow up with knees and slamming his face into the ground with your bodyweight.

The difference here is that the overhook keeps him from turning the corner.

[Merryprankster]

Better to hook under the outside arm and try to break their balance?

That's one way. You can also overhook putting pressure on the shoulder using what we call a wizzer grip (kinda what I described).

The underhook will be HARD to get if they are in deep.

Bottom line- separate their head from your leg. The more distance you create there, the eaasier to get your leg out.

[brothernumber9]

for a smaller guy like me bracing forward with a stance or knee, even if causing some damage to the shooter would probably still land me getting caught just by weight and momentum (assuming the shooter is bigger and/or heavier than me, which is most probable). So usually I sprawl, not only that but sprawling alone doesn't help me since alot of guys' arms often can still get a grip to my legs since I'm short, so I have to couple that with a strong crossface or wizzer. Pretty much stuff Kung Lek mentioned.

However with enough size or weight and some sense of balance and resistence I can see how a firm forward leg and anticipation can deny a shot since it would happen to me on occasion during bull in the ring and king of the ring drills.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Try shooting your same-side arm between your thigh and the attacker's torso with the back of your upper arm in their armpit.. then, sprawl the back leg while grasping behind your own lead knee.. the sinking produces a scissor effect on their shoulder.. as they relax to avoid the impending dislocation, their grasping arm releases and presents itself for your application of choice.. a folded arm-lock with wrist-twist works well for me..

Be well..

[Ray Pina]

When they have passed your initial defense and have gottten to your waist/torso and go around the back, try stepping back with the same side leg and using all that momentum to swing back that same side arm so that your elbow blasts their elbow joint on the extended arm .... this can be turned into a nice lock, and at least buy you some time to come around with the other hand or elbow on the back of the head.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Heck, a simple elbow spike between the shoulder-blade and spine will usually get you some extra time.. if you can spike the floating ribs at the kidney, the attack is usually neutralized..

I have a student that steps over with his rear leg and executes a triangle choke with his legs (talented creep).. i can't yet find the gumption to take the punishment of the resulting slam and maintain the leg-lock (but, i'm working on it)..

Be well...

[Ray Pina]

TaiChiBob, I land in Jacksonville tomorrow at 1:30. Any news on potential surf? Last I checked they were saying maybe 3 foot.

[brothernumber9]

sometime a defense to a shot is proposed by a punch or elbow strike to the back or back of the head, etc. This could certainly be valid and I'm sure some people wouldn't propose it unless they'd actually seen it work or done it themselves.

Personally I think the chance of being able to execute such techniques with effect or far less likely than likely, unless a shooter clearly presents or even teleqraphs their shot or intention to do so without any set up.

When I used to wrestle I picked up a simple but effective set up from a competitor that used it well and helped him win a county championship. He would simply but quickly either palm strike (though not hard) the forehead of the opponent, or palm their face (not striking), or hold his hand up right in front of their face, then shoot. He would basically block or alter his opponents vision so they couldn't see when he first moved in or once they caught on, he could anticipate that they would try to drop to anticipate his shot and could sometime get a chancellor or chicken wing, wizzer etc.

[Merryprankster]

Try shooting your same-side arm between your thigh and the attacker's torso with the back of your upper arm in their armpit.. then, sprawl the back leg while grasping behind your own lead knee.. the sinking produces a scissor effect on their shoulder.. as they relax to avoid the impending dislocation, their grasping arm releases and presents itself for your application of choice.. a folded arm-lock with wrist-twist works well for me..

Who in heavens name is letting you do this to them? I'm lifting you straight up if you try this. You've put your center directly over mine. I'm not relaxing, I'm going to lift and drop you on your head. Or dump you without lifting. If your lead leg is forward and your rear leg is back, you're weak to the corner, PERIOD, and that's where you're headed.


When they have passed your initial defense and have gottten to your waist/torso and go around the back, try stepping back with the same side leg and using all that momentum to swing back that same side arm so that your elbow blasts their elbow joint on the extended arm .... this can be turned into a nice lock, and at least buy you some time to come around with the other hand or elbow on the back of the head.


Heck, a simple elbow spike between the shoulder-blade and spine will usually get you some extra time.. if you can spike the floating ribs at the kidney, the attack is usually neutralized..

Both of these have a severe disadvantage. If you miss, or if they just decide not to let go, you're on the ground. On the other hand, if you spend your time here focusing on your balance and getting out, even if you don't get it precisely right, you've bought yourself REAL time. Not the limited hope of pain compliance...

EF, you're simply not going to have time for what you're talking about. Secondly, WHAT extended arm? How did you get it extended? Here's how you turn the corner on a sweep single. While these are done from wrist control or a tie up, no need. I hit mine from a distance, and when doing MMA I usually hit it as a counter shot off of somebody trying to punch or kick me...slip, sweep single, follow the kick back in, sweep single, etc...:

Slow motion: http://www.lesgutches.com/real/swing_small.rm

Three different animated gifs.

http://www.themat.com/ted/brandssweep/sweep1.gif
http://www.themat.com/ted/brandssweep/sweep2.gif
http://www.themat.com/ted/brandssweep/sweep3.gif

In the last, you'll note the use of the wizzer grip to try and counter the single.

[Merryprankster]

This could certainly be valid and I'm sure some people wouldn't propose it unless they'd actually seen it work or done it themselves.

Only if you knock them out or are dealing with somebody who doesn't know what they are doing, barring some other sort of luck.

Why bother?

Recover. Split him from your body. Pound the crap out of him.

[Nick Forrer]

'Put your inside hand on the guy's head, and get an over hook on his outside arm (the one outside your leg--lateral for you medical types) with your other arm. Snake your arm underneath his armpit and get hold of your own wrist. You can use this grip to tear his hold off your leg - you'll have to use your legs and hips in conjunction with this of course.'

Merry, is your arm that is snaking under his armpit over his head or under his chin.

Also if his head is right next to your leg i.e. if hes clamped on tight how do you get the room to snake the arm through- what i mean is how is it any easier to snake the arm underneath his armpit than to get an underhook with the other arm

[ShaolinTiger00]

sprawl, crossface to rear naked choke.

sprawl to quillotine

sprawl to knees.

sprawl to airplane ride for control

sprawl to 3/4 nelson

sprawl to elbow chop

tomoe nage

sumi gaeshi

[Merryprankster]

Merry, is your arm that is snaking under his armpit over his head or under his chin.

Neither.

Envision your opponent having your leg. One arm is on the outside of your body, the other is between you legs. Together they wrap the leg. Your outside arm is going to go OVER his outside arm, between his tricep and lat. Your inside arm is pushing on the back of his head, away from your leg and down. Your hips and legs are used to try and extend that outside arm as much as possible while putting all your weight on that head. This will help you get your arm through and connect with the wrist of the hand that is on his head. It separates him from you, increases your chances of not getting put on your butt.

The difference between this and what MK was talking about is that the overhook helps keep him from turning the corner (along with hip pressure, of course, which, for what it's worth, does NOT happen if you leave your forward leg where it is)




Also if his head is right next to your leg i.e. if hes clamped on tight how do you get the room to snake the arm through- what i mean is how is it any easier to snake the arm underneath his armpit than to get an underhook with the other arm

I'm coming in from the back, over his arm. It's easier to help smash the person down with an overhook (wizzer) and work to pry him off than to get the underhook on the same side if he's already deep for two reason:

1. If you're working for that outside (lateral vice medial) underhook, then he can turn the corner on you--by having your arm inside his, you can't block off his body.

2. His chest is smooshed to your leg. It's a lot harder to make the space you need to get your arm in there and it's awkward. But mostly, it's reason #1.

If you did good and have a bit of room, there's nothing wrong with the underhook, but if they are already in tight, it's hard to get.

Finally, if you are going for the medial underhook, you run into the same problem. He's going to turn the corner unless your other arm is blocking to the outside - most easily done with a wizzer type grip.

You can, of course, work all of this in conjuction with crossfacing/pictureframing the crap out of them, which works nicely and starts the process of getting their head unglued from your appendages :D

The main thing I'm seeing is either a disinterest or unwillingness to get that lead leg back. It's a MUST! Most of what is being talked about here will have a much higher success rate once that's done, IMO.

[Merryprankster]

tomoe nage

suma gaeshi

Yeah, but I don't know about you--seems to rarely work for me without the gi and against a good shooter. Have you had more success?

I sure haven't.

[brothernumber9]

the pushing down on the head facilitates that

[ShaolinTiger00]

Have you had more success?

Ask Nakapan! :D (between the sumi gaeshi and the rice bag reversals)

Yeah, in that circumstance I knew that he was going to shoot so I kept my knees bent low and waited. He came in and I buck and get deep underhooks and let his momentum carry us as I get my feet inside his knees for the sumi gaeshi, and land in the mount.

[brothernumber9]

**** quick posts and the refresh button

[Merryprankster]

Yeah, in that circumstance I knew that he was going to shoot so I kept my knees bent low and waited. He came in and I buck and get deep underhooks and let his momentum carry us as I get my feet inside his knees for the sumi gaeshi, and land in the mount.

huh. :D

I've probably just never been very good at it. Is it working for low singles? Sheer curiosity.

Of course, I'm six feet tall and relatively light...probably why I'm not very good at it.

I prefer to counter with a wizzer-grip uchi :D

[Nick Forrer]

'This will help you get your arm through and connect with the wrist of the hand that is on his head.'

My mistake- i thought it was the inside/head pushing arm that was grabbing the overhook arm rather than vice versa.

So in essence- shooting the lead leg back i.e. the leg he is grabbing, in conjunction with levering down on his head (and thus pushing and pulling him in opposite directions at one and the same time), will/should give you enough room to snake the outside arm through. And furthermore this is preferable to going for the underhook because that would make it easier for him to turn the corner.

How'd i do?

[red5angel]

The main thing I'm seeing is either a disinterest or unwillingness to get that lead leg back. It's a MUST! Most of what is being talked about here will have a much higher success rate once that's done, IMO.

I think for my part, it might be that feeling of off blance-ness you get having to use your opponent as a sort of third leg to stay up if you pull both legs back. The other thing might be that I am sort of considering the options from a "reality" type situation. I don't know who would go for a shoot in a reality type situation offhand, but it's a possibility and I train for possibilities.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's not a good idea even in a reality type situation, just that my thinknig coupled with my lack of knowledge probably are stopping me from using this in practice. Something I may have to use here soon.


It also turns out that if someone shoots on me I can just gouge their eyes out.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I've probably just never been very good at it.

gotta drill it..

low singles? no way!

[Merryprankster]

ST00,

thought not...and yup, drilling is always key.


The other thing might be that I am sort of considering the options from a "reality" type situation. I don't know who would go for a shoot in a reality type situation offhand, but it's a possibility and I train for possibilities.

I don't understand this. What do you mean?

re, the sprawl, you don't have to go to the ground. You don't even have to get particularly far forward. Like i said, a buck back will let you ride his weight a bit.

NF, perfect!

[Ray Pina]

I could only open the first of that set of three.

I'm saying the guy in red should, instead of bringing his right arm all the way around the the guy in blues left, he should keep it closer to his own body and work the leverage better on the guy's right elbow joint.

Anyway, I find there's just as much time to do this as their is for the other to complete his lock and set up a throw.

As for having time to stop the shoot, I believe it is essential to not have too much technique. I generally keep my lead hand just at about my belly button when aproaching to deal with incoming kicks. I also like to jam punching from the bottom, using the back hand as a sensor/blocker and the lead as a jammer/striker.

If one shoots, it's very easy to deliver an elbow from this position, similiar to an overhand ... in Hsing-I it's called Snake. There is also a combo rising strike after this called Chicken. It's one of those things you have to see.

MP, we'll have to save it for one of those "show me yours I'll show you mine" get togethers. I'm actually very curious in seeing how it works against higher level ground guys like yourself.

I have the Gracie school here in the city but want another year before I go there. Because I want this $hit tight first.

[Merryprankster]

I have the Gracie school here in the city but want another year before I go there. Because I want this $hit tight first.

Go find the local wrestling club instead. Much better choice for what you are talking about. Of course, you'll have to find somebody that doesn't mind getting hit.

Watch the video closer. He can't get to the elbow. Brands (blue) is clear and by. Red's balance is gone and he pitches forward as Blue goes under the arm. Red goes to the overhook, trying to get a wizzer but can't reach the elbow at all. He'd have to reach nearly to the opposite hip behind himself to get a decent grip. Unless you're gumby, that's not happening.

While this is "this particular situation," it's generally applicable that the guy is going to turn the corner off a low single and you're going to have a VERY hard time doing what you are talking about. The elbow will be bent for one, never mind the leverage and balance problems.


Anyway, I find there's just as much time to do this as their is for the other to complete his lock and set up a throw.

Against who? You've pretty much admitted that you're not practicing these things on people who know how to take other people down. Why waste your time? Refining a move that seems to work on people who don't know what they are doing is miles different than on people who do.

[Ray Pina]

"You've pretty much admitted that you're not practicing these things on people who know how to take other people down"

I wouldn't run that far with my statement. I have a GJJ student and a 190lbs collegiate wrestler in my class and play with a few mid-ranked BJJ guys out on the island.

What I don't have is, full contact, strikes allowed work against guys who are considered their organizations best or good reps... But like I said, I have a lot of work to do first.

[Merryprankster]

190lbs collegiate wrestler in my class and play

Well, he knows what he's doing, I would think.

But you guys aren't allowed to go full contact? Ever?

Well, let me amend that. I'd say hard sparring is still knock-out capable, but not quite all out.

[Ray Pina]

Stand up fighting, yes, we go full... or to be internet friendly: punching and kicking as hard and fast as we can with the intent to not be the guy that gets his a$$ kicked.

On the ground, we play for position, pins and submissions at the same intensity, but when I can jam the guy in gurad's legs back with my knees and hips while standing over him I swing with speed enough to get in but pull the punches to not land heavy to illustrate that he has to change position and does and then we play again for submissions and pins and keep going.

These guys are more "ground fighters" than me. They go for the locks. I fight to maintain a strong structure and not give them an arm, control their hips and look for an opportunity to control them enough to strike.

I actually suggested last night to my partner that we use headgear and boxing gloves next time. I think this aproach will be to my advantage -- because lots of my strikes are taken with a "hhhmmmmm,, that would have gotten me but here's my lock now anyway" when they can actually be quite heavy.

I don't know. I guess I'll see Tues. night. But I am enjoying this. The entire school's intensity has been raised recently with some fresh blood, guys bringing other disciplines into the mix.

[Shadowboxer]

Technical question for you grapplers. From the clinch, we do a duck under for a single. Should my head be on the outside of the leg? Does it matter? What are the pros/cons of head inside/outside? Thanks.

[red5angel]

I don't understand this. What do you mean?

I mean that I am training to do damage. I can't focus on grappling, I just don't want to, so some things will be out of my range. I have fully accepted that I will probably go to the ground if someone wants to take me there and they have the right stuff. for my part, I'm training so that I can try to stop the grounding if possible, with anything I can think of.

As an example, remember my wrestling buddy? He and I worked on some stuff over the winter and I think ears might be a vulnerable spot. I know it sounds strange but heres the deal. they say it takes only 4 pounds of pressure to tear an ear off right? So we worked a little on geting to an ear or two while someone is trying to take me down. That's one of those injuries that will make a person pay attention. I believe it's an effective tactic for self defense, so I train it that way.
Take note, I'm not trying to start a fight between what's right and what isn't. I believe the ear thing, while sounding strange, works. I haven't torn off any actual ears so I can't confirm the 4 lbs thing, but I can say that I can get a hold of an ear just about every time. So for now I train to do what I can within my own abilities, and as those abilities increase I work on expanding.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
Technical question for you grapplers. From the clinch, we do a duck under for a single. Should my head be on the outside of the leg? Does it matter? What are the pros/cons of head inside/outside? Thanks.

Head inside on a single, always.

Keeping it outside will get you crossfaced or choked.

[Merryprankster]

From the clinch, we do a duck under for a single. Should my head be on the outside of the leg? Does it matter? What are the pros/cons of head inside/outside?

It doesn't matter, but if your head is on the outside, you MUST clear the arm and turn the corner **** fast or lift, because the cross face is going to rip your head off or push you over.

Head inside makes it harder to peel away from the body.

I assume you're moving, really to "Duck under, high crotch to single leg?" You're clearing the outside arm anyway, so you'll be able to turn before they start trying to tear your head off

[Merryprankster]

I mean that I am training to do damage. I can't focus on grappling, I just don't want to, so some things will be out of my range. I have fully accepted that I will probably go to the ground if someone wants to take me there and they have the right stuff. for my part, I'm training so that I can try to stop the grounding if possible, with anything I can think of.

Fair enough.

Listen, you want to learn the buckback sprawl and the 3/4 nelson. These are without a doubt the two best defenses for staying on your feet - and I mean WELL on your feet, without that laying on your opponent stuff - around.

[red5angel]

I'm pretty sure I've picked up the 3/4 nelson, just need to work it alot more. I'll have to ask about the buckback.

[Merryprankster]

all it is is, when they shoot, you put your hands or forearms on their shoulders and ride their drive back. You throw your legs and hips back, but it's not the same as that hard slamming sprawl.

You're intercepting at a greater distance so you don't have to go down on top of them.

[red5angel]

ok, I've worked it a few times as well, stil working on the co-ordination thing but I can see what your saying.

[mickey]

Greetings,

For a real shoot:

1- Catch headby sides, thumbs gouge into eyes.

2- Push head down, grab adam's apple. Snap Pinch it.

3- Hard stiff arm strike(as in football, but with intent to hurt), while moving body to side.

mickey