8 Locks or 8 Tests?

[MantisCool]

We have a partner set here called "Pak Kao" in Cantonese. In Mandarin it is either Ba Kao (8 Tests) or Ba Kou (8 Locks).

Unfortunately, I have not seen this form before. This form was practised by my Si Paks in the 60's. It involve locking and hitting to the various parts of the body like the back and stomach and also has a Chou Dui (Sweeping Kick). One would hit and the other would take the blow.

When in the demonstration the hard hit would produce sound. It could results in injuries to the novice and thats why my sifu didnt teach.

Anybody heard of this set before?

[B.Tunks]

MC,

Yes. this is Ba Kao= eight lean on/close against. They are Kao Da exercises and not a form perse, more a partner drill. They are very important exercises and should be practiced often, especially in the early/formative years. Qixing Tanglang pays close attention to these drills.

BT

[German Bai Lung]

Although I can imagine what you mean, can you give some material (like Pics or vids) of it, Brendan?

We got a Partnerset which also got a lot of Locks and Grabbing. Takedowns, sweepings and groundfighting.
It is called: chyn ji doi da.

[B.Tunks]

Hi GBL,

I cant post any videos because I am a dinosaur, Tainan can vouch for that.
It is a pretty simple exercise that involves conditioning and striking with 8 surfaces of the body. They alternate left and right moving up and down in a straight line or can be linked one after another in series. Basically one partner strikes and the other responds with either a block, diao shou, evasion (depending on the attack) and responds by closing in and crashing against the opponent, the opponent bumps back with equal force (its a conditioning drill, amongst other things). These attacks are coupled with interlocking or colliding stances or stepping and in actual application, result in knocking the opponent down.
Being a drill, knocking them down is not required. Knocking is done elbow to chest, arm (and side of body) to chest (and side of body), shoulder to shoulder, chest to chest, hip to hip, side to side and back side to backside. various sides of the shoulder can be worked.
This drill is great for conditioning the internal organs from heavy impact and penetrating force and of course regular impact damage (bruising, soft tissue damage etc). It also develops explosive force, fajing if you will.
Kao is one of the key principles and a good way to understand and apply is by closing with this drill. We can say this is one of the Duan Da or short range skills of Tanglang Quan. It is often overlooked.
hope this helps.

BT

[mantis108]

Adeptly put, Brendan. I totally agreed with you.

Kao Da is found in most TCMA systems especially sothern systems. It is known as 2 stars or 3 stars striking (Da San Sing). However, most of the Kao Da that I have seen are rudimentary. Only in Mantis that I found most comphrensive Kao Da protocol. It is an excellent training methodology although most people viewed it as seperate and finite "techniques". As Brendan pointed out, there are more than meets the eyes with Kao Da. You can practically practice any techniques you want be it Da (striking), Ti (kicking) Na (siezing), and Shuai (throws and takedown).

BTW, Kao could also be "lean" or "torture" in Chinese. Both characters have been used in different schools. Kou is knocking. Qiao (as in Knocking the door) is also used. So Kao Kao, Kao Kou; Kao Da, Kou Da; Qiao Da, etc. all mean the same thing IMHO.

There are at least 2 ways to do Kao Da - stationary and mobile. Brendan described in detail the mobile ones. The stationary ones are done in Horse stance. Actually stationary would be better to describe as locally because you do move with the stance but you remain in the same space. If you have Lee Kam Wing's book, you will see the local ones which he does it as fluid drill. In CCK TCPM, we break this down in to smaller pieces. We also has one that done in horse stance to cat stance. Having said all this the stationary way is not consider as Kao Da in many schools. But is the same principle. As for the mobile one there are again 2 different approaches. One is going in a line and the other is going in circles. It is just different way of practicing stepping or footwork.

In TJPM tradition, the line method is used mostly. There are about 7 or 8 different ones. The 7 lines one is called Qi Tan Kao Da. Sifu Profatilov listed those on my forum before.

Right now, I use the one Kao Da "routine" about 6 very basic ones shown to me by Tainan Mantis to teach the 7 hands forms (Qi Shou Quan). This is to polish the takedown and counter takedown techniques besides conditioning. I also use them to lead into ground fighting.

Finally, there is also a "sticky" leg method for training takedowns which are mostly leg techniques. It is similar in principle with the Kao Da methodology except that it uses the legs instead of the arms. On a side note, throw involves picking some off his/her root(s) and literally dump him/her down on to the ground.

Mantis108

[MantisCool]

Thanks everybody for the explanation.

So the "Kao" is actually lean or close in and since it involve striking IMHO it can be said as "Close contact" or "Full contact" like in fighting.

Can Brendan please list out the actual 8 movements of the Ba Kao? Is it to strike at 8 parts of the body or to use 8 parts of our body to strike?

[B.Tunks]

Hi all.

108 is right on all counts. I forgot to state that this can be done both in a circle and stationary. In fact much Kao Da training is done stationary.

MC wrote:

So the "Kao" is actually lean or close in and since it involve striking IMHO it can be said as "Close contact" or "Full contact" like in fighting.

Everything in TLQ should be 'like in fighting.' You will not find these kind of real gongfu methods in modern wushu or half assed Tanglang systems. I think 108 has expanded the definition of Kao widely enough for you to take your own meaning of the name, however; the proof is in the practice. 'close' as I put it is 'close' as in to 'close in ' on something. When you 'close in' you 'lean against'. This 'Leaning' is as 108 highlighted, the major definition.

MC:

Can Brendan please list out the actual 8 movements of the Ba Kao? Is it to strike at 8 parts of the body or to use 8 parts of our body to strike?

I kind of already tried. It is more to 'kao' in 8 different ways (8 different parts if you like). In my initial explanation I left off: upper-back to chest. There is also Kao Da with the head. I can not give you a universal list of Ba Kao because, as is always the case with TLQ, it varies across the board. All methods are valuable.

BT

[MantisCool]

Since the name is Ba Kao. I am just qurious to know what strokes consist of the Ba in its traditional form. Ofcourse, comtemporary people can use any Kao Da or add to 10 or more Kao but than the Ba Kao would lost its original meaning already.

You are right that it varies across the board. I dont know whether our set of Ba Kao is handed down by LKY or already have some variation.

According to my Si Sook, ours is a linear set moving up and down the line. Maybe, I would ask my sifu and hear what he says.

In my earlier message I mentioned Si Pak. Instead it should be Si Sook because my sifu is the Tai Si Heng.

[mantis108]

Thanks Brendan for sharing.

I'm not sure of the exact content of the Seven Stars' 8. But I can see similarity from Brendan's description.

Here's the 7 that Shifu Profatilov listed:


"Qitang Kao" — seven sections of body-hardening by means of striking bodies against each other.

1. Yitang Ti (first section is kicking)
2. Ertang Qiao (second section is sweeping)
3. Santang Tui (third section is pushing)
4. Sitang Bai (fourth section is swinging)
5. Wutang Lei (fifth section is ribs)
6. Liutang Dingzhou (sixth section is hips)
7. Qitang Jian (seventh section is shoulders)

The last three are essential to Tie Kao. #6 for example is particularly good in the first turn of the road in the 7 star version of Bengbu. In there, one could use the bump check which is drilled in Liutang Dingzhou.

Mantis108

[MantisCool]

I checked the book of Wong Hon-Chiu " A Discourse on the history of PM Boxing....." paged 214, he listed the set as 8 Locks not 8 lean or 8 close as we mentioned. He further mentioned it is a "Pai Da Gung"

With his variants, I think we should analyse further the actual meaning of this 7-star set. What is "Pai Da Gung" ?

[GermanMantis]

Originally posted by MantisCool
I checked the book of Wong Hon-Chiu " A Discourse on the history of PM Boxing....."

Hi MantisCool,

could you post the ISBN of the book?
Thanks!
Best regards
Chris

[bungda07]

Re: Mantis Cool, Pai Da Gong is Body conditioning exercises. To strike or swat the body.


German Mantis: ISBN is: 962993789-1



V/r

Steve M.

[MantisCool]

Steve, thanks for the translation.

Hi! Chris, the book is in Chinese.

Regards
khoo