Jow Gar and Hung Gar [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Fu-Pow

04-28-2004, 12:24 PM

They call Jow Ga "Hung Tao Choy Mei" or head of Hung and tail of Choy.

But which Choy, which Hung?

Choy Ga? One of the five family styles of Southern China ie Hung, Mak, Lau, Li and Choy?

Choy Li Fut? As in Choy Fook (aka Scar head, Green Grass Monk)?

Or is the Choy in Choy Li Fut the same Choy as in Choy Ga?

Does the Hung in Hung Ga refer to one of the five family styles or does it refer to the Hung Moon society? Or is it a completely different Hung?

This all gets very complicated very fast because we are talking about the history of bandits, secret societies, religious institutions and revolutions. Furthermore, as westerners we have a language barrier to overcome.

All I can say about Southern styles (ie 5 family styles, Hung Kuen, Jow Ga, Hung Fut, Choy Li Fut, etc.) is that they seem to share certain elements:

Circular, powerful movements, strong stances, explosive "strong" power.

Compared to the Northern styles that "appear" softer, are more lengthened, are more flowery, etc.

Even these are general impressions and not true across styles.

RENEGADE_MONK

04-28-2004, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by Kung Lek
rm-

do you see similarities in teh forms between jow ga and choy li fut or do you think the form are more similar to hung ga?
spin? you are a jow ga player are you not?

cheers
Yes i see similarities between the two, Jow ga forms are a combination of both but jow ga is more similair to choy li fut than it is to hung gar in the beginning we very close or similair to hung gar having only a few forms 1 or 2 that are very close to hung gar.

Am I a jow ga player? yes......am I currently practicing in a formal school at the moment? no

David Jamieson

04-28-2004, 04:47 PM

fp-

lol. yes, which indeed. and here's an even more interesting thing.
When I was speaking with a friend we started talking about Hung.

Now, there is Hung which means "red" and there is Hung that means "big" and there is Hung that is a surname.

So three meanings for Hung! (not all the same character, just pronounced the same)

Anyway, he also told me that it is pretty hard to find many people with the surname Hung anymore. It's not one of the more common surnames anymore.

But then, there is always this guy (http://www.williamhung.com) :D

rm- you stop training because of scheduling? Or did your school shut down? wtf man? :)

RENEGADE_MONK

04-28-2004, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by Kung Lek
fp-

rm- you stop training because of scheduling? Or did your school shut down? wtf man? :)

LMAO nah man the school didn't shut down, my schedule is pretty screwed up with work, school, and single parent syndrome:)

mysteri

04-28-2004, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by Octavius
Could someone tell me what the differences between the two arts are? By this, I mean that I already understand the back story behind Jow Gar (combo of HG + N.Shaolin) so have an idea of the similarities, but I'm not quite getting my head around the actual differences between the two. Are there differences in the principles and theories between them (i.e. different ways of enerating power?), or just technique (i.e. southern kicking style vs. northern kicking style?) or something like that? Thanks for any input.

as said before, jow ga is a synthesis of hung ga, choy ga, and bak siu lum. hung ga is the mother system off of which everything else is built/added. different lineages may vary, but in my lineage, we considered a southern longhand system. we get our stances from hung ga(and some footwork), hands skills from hung ga, footwork from choy ga(we don't have choy hands) and some sporadic northern flavor forms or techniques from bak siu lum. as far as my sifu told me, we descend from wong fei hung lineage of hung ga. also, the choy ga is the same choy ga which choy li fut comes from.

as a little insight, a lot of people consider original hung kuen to basically be nam siu lum ji(south shaolin temple) gung fu. remiscent of a lot of southern systems are "short hand wide horse." it is said that WFH incorporated longhand techniques into hung ga from lama pai(a tibetan gung fu). therefore, hung ga could hence forth broaden their gung fu range of combat. this (IMO) helped popularize them as a very powerful, formidable fighting system.

in my trainin, i spent the first few years focusing on what i would consider "hung ga-like" training. my fourth year, my sifu suddenly emphasized that the footwork we'd learned before be much swifter and focused on it more(choy). i think the "hung tao choy mei" can also be taken as "hung early, choy later." this is from my own limited training and experience though.

finally, have u seen jow ga performed? i'm sure some people on here can point u to many different vids of jow ga being performed. for me, a lot of what i see looks like hung ga in the beginning(much dynamic tension, little or no footwork). then suddenly, much dynamic footwork patterns, short and long techniques, high and low. forms i've seen like this are sei ping kuen, moi fa kuen(northern and southern), maan ji kuen, siu hung kuen, chai jong(if i remember correctly), fu hak seurng ying kuen, fu pao seurng ying kuen, sup ying kuen, and sup ji kuen. i'm sure there are others, but i can't think of them right now.

my siu hung kuen(the last form i learned) actually fits this pattern perfectly. if u compare a HG form like gung ji fok fu kuen and siu hung kuen, u'll notice they start similarly with much dynamic tension(though my siu hung kuen is narrow horse in beginning). then, after the first part of the form, u'll notice siu hung kuen's footwork picks up considerably much more than GGFFK and speed is emphasized more. better?? by no means. do u prefer vanilla or chocolate?

mysteri

04-28-2004, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by Kung Lek
fp-

lol. yes, which indeed. and here's an even more interesting thing.
When I was speaking with a friend we started talking about Hung.

Now, there is Hung which means "red" and there is Hung that means "big" and there is Hung that is a surname.

So three meanings for Hung! (not all the same character, just pronounced the same)

Anyway, he also told me that it is pretty hard to find many people with the surname Hung anymore. It's not one of the more common surnames anymore.

But then, there is always this guy (http://www.williamhung.com) :D

rm- you stop training because of scheduling? Or did your school shut down? wtf man? :)

its also been noted before that, if we go along with the "jee shim sim see-->'hung' hei guen" story, the name "hung" was used here as a pseudonym to mean "heroic" in support of anti-ching sentiment. so "hung kuen" or "heroic fist" was what was being spread. the "red fist"(hong chuan) to my knowledge is bak siu lum(like xiao hong chuan-small red fist/daa(?) hong chuan- big red fist). however, i'm not sure of what "red" is symbolic? but then, everyhing in chinese is symbolic right? if we're confused, then they've done their job well :D

Fu-Pau

04-29-2004, 08:18 PM

Yup... what Mysteri said... :)

though I think that the balance between hung and choy in Chow Gar (Jow Ga) is about even. The emphasis in some forms leans more to hung than to choy though, and vice versa (even though all forms have elements of both and a touch of bak siu lum)

mysteri

04-29-2004, 09:11 PM

sihing, i agree that the forms all have elements of hung and choy with a touch of bak siu lum.

since i am still novice in my jow ga, i guess i wouldn't know what kind of choy ga i have encoutered much past the footwork and some ground skills. then again, i can't say that i've seen any good choy ga before. what kind of things would i be lookin out for that are reminiscent of choy ga? to my knowledge, we don't use choy kiu sau faht. maybe ur referring to kicking skills?

also, one thing that i noticed is that we use some shorthand bridges which are like SPM(actually they derive from mantis). are these kinds of things in ur lineage as well(jiu sau, gort sau?) or maybe this is somethin my sifu(or whoever trained him) might have incorporated into our cirriculum? jus makin curious correlations.. thanx in advance.

illusionfist

04-29-2004, 10:01 PM

I've seen a bit of Jow Gar and it all depends on the player really. Some people have more of a Hung Kuen flare, others have more of a CLF. I've never seen a perfect balance. In all honesty, i don't think anybody could achieve a perfect balance of the two.

The faht however seems to revolve around more of a CLF-esque structure using Hung Kuen power. This can be seen in Jow Gar's use of "wheel punches". There is definitely a degree of bin ging, or whipping power that is used, but not to the effect that a CLF player would employ.

Somethings are blatantly CLF, like the "small tiger block' sequence in Siu Fuk Fu Kuen. This sequence is clearly taken from CLF's use of the chyun kiu, got sau, and fu jow. The Chyun Kiu and Got Sau is a fundamental sequence in CLF. However, the structure might be CLF derived, but there is definitely a "taint' of Hung Kuen ging and bridge hand usage.

Other things are not so cut and dry, such as the half step that is very common in Jow Gar. Some could argue that this is a play on CLF's usage of biu ma, whereas others could argue that it's a play on Hung Kuen's usage of siu bo, or mouse stepping.

Peace :D

mysteri

04-29-2004, 11:26 PM

thanx for ur input, illusionfist. maybe u can help to elaborate on some things...

Orinigally posted by illusionfist:
...There is definitely a degree of bin ging, or whipping power that is used, but not to the effect that a CLF player would employ.

care to elaborate a bit? i think i may know, but would rather not assume...

...Somethings are blatantly CLF, like the "small tiger block' sequence in Siu Fuk Fu Kuen. This sequence is clearly taken from CLF's use of the chyun kiu, got sau, and fu jow. The Chyun Kiu and Got Sau is a fundamental sequence in CLF. However, the structure might be CLF derived, but there is definitely a "taint' of Hung Kuen ging and bridge hand usage.

would u mind to help with some terminology to keep us all on the same page? i'm reading chuen kiu "drilling bridge", got sau "slicing bridge." no? so do u feel these bridges from CLF derive from choy ga? could be a common link.(i'm tryin to think of the sequence u speak of in small tiger)

...Other things are not so cut and dry, such as the half step that is very common in Jow Gar. Some could argue that this is a play on CLF's usage of biu ma, whereas others could argue that it's a play on Hung Kuen's usage of siu bo, or mouse stepping.

aren't darting horse and mouse stepping basically the same thing? is this what u refer to as half stepping(foward slide- step/shuffle)? in my school, we refer to half step as in "sei ping baat foon ma"(half-step horse). we should try to put our terms on the same level to avoid confusion, huh ;)

The faht however seems to revolve around more of a CLF-esque structure using Hung Kuen power.

::nod:: we're in agreeance. i would probably say that one way to distinguish CLF from jow ga is the way the two "float, sink, swallow, spit." i think the different ways/times we root is prolly different as well. jus some of my own observations. looking foward to more input!

illusionfist

04-30-2004, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by mysteri
thanx for ur input, illusionfist. maybe u can help to elaborate on some things...

care to elaborate a bit? i think i may know, but would rather not assume...

would u mind to help with some terminology to keep us all on the same page? i'm reading chuen kiu "drilling bridge", got sau "slicing bridge." no? so do u feel these bridges from CLF derive from choy ga? could be a common link.(i'm tryin to think of the sequence u speak of in small tiger)

aren't darting horse and mouse stepping basically the same thing? is this what u refer to as half stepping(foward slide- step/shuffle)? in my school, we refer to half step as in "sei ping baat foon ma"(half-step horse). we should try to put our terms on the same level to avoid confusion, huh ;)

::nod:: we're in agreeance. i would probably say that one way to distinguish CLF from jow ga is the way the two "float, sink, swallow, spit." i think the different ways/times we root is prolly different as well. jus some of my own observations. looking foward to more input!

Essentially the bin ging is enough to be a little bit more than what a Hung Kuen practitioner would utilize during a gwa/sow sequence, but there is enough reserve energy within the move that the sow choy does not cross the person's centerline (like how a CLF player would- i.e. massive amount of follow through). So it's almost a kin to hung kuen's "gold star hook" technique.

Chyun Kiu is "inch bridge", albeit used in it's typical fashion denoting "penetrating". Got Sau is "cutting hand". I couldn't really comment on them coming from Choy Ga or not. I haven't really seen much Choy Ga so I couldn't say. If I was to guess, it's a play on moves found in Hung Kuen- just done with a different ging. In the form it's probably the most repeated bridging sequence, so i'd say it's pretty integral.

Biu Ma and Siu Bo are very different. Biu Ma darts in, so it is a very quick move that typically overwhelms the opponent. Siu Bo on the other hand can be used in a variety of ways, most of which are very sneaky. You can also have combination of grinding and sliding with siu bo, which can also differentiate things. Sei Ping Baht Fun Ma can be used in a variety of different ways that can employ both biu ma or siu bo, or both in conjunction with each other.

Tun To Fou Chum is a hard model to use to differentiate both CLF and Jow Gar. In this regard they can be very similar. It also depends if you are talking about breathing (hei gung) or are you talking about bridging? Both present their problems as a description.

Peace :D

Fu-Pau

04-30-2004, 01:00 AM

Mysteri,

I wasn't talking about the footwork or kicking per se, although I would say that the 'ke lum po' - wu lung bai mei and siew yeng bai mei are probably more Choy influenced than Hung. I was actually thinking of the hands and typical Choy gar techniques such as 'bing choi', 'lok choi', 'kam choi' etc.

Also I would not have thought that shifting (half steps) were particularly Hung or Choy... rather just southern kung fu.

As far as SPM... I have seen (and occasionally felt) Sifu use some SPM-ish like techniques before in sparring. But I can't quite think of any set that you find it in. (mind you there are many Chow Gar sets that I do not know yet).

A good illustration of a form that contains a good balance of Hung and Choy would be 'maan ji'. The focus on the stances in this set is low strong Hung gar, as well as a lot of the punching, so in outward appearance the set would appear to be very Hung influenced. However when you consider the amount of shifting, the use of kam choi, bing choi, gwa choi combined with gwaang (backfist strike to the groin) and the subtle interaction between strong short range techniques and explosive long range (penetrating) techniques within combinations, you can see the Choy influence coming through to compliment the Hung.

Illusion,

Still not sure what part of 'siew fok fu' you are referring to... (darn terminology!):(

Fu-Pow

04-30-2004, 10:25 AM

Man!! Your guys romanizations suck!!! :D

mysteri

04-30-2004, 12:55 PM

fu-pow,

ahhh, glad u showed up! now we have a CLF guy that can help out a bit... besides, when u've got an aussie, a black male, and a texan tryin to make english out of chinese... welllll!! :D

illusionfist-

since neither of us have seen much good choy ga, its hard to know some things for sure. perhaps (CLF) fu-pow can help us out a bit? i only notice (visual) difference btwn jow ga and CLF longhand from the ma. i think overall, we emphasize different type of sink/root in the footwork. i'm not sure about the internal tun to fo chum(never been taught TTFC as a 'model' in jow ga).

i can't recall ur 'mouse-stepping' bein used in (our) jow ga either. we have "triangle stepping" and "snake stepping" as some real basic types. maybe there's a correlation.

(chow gar)fu-pau-

i agree that half-steps are pretty common in nam siu lum gung fu. though i don't know the form, i can also see ur illustration of "maan ji." good illustration. we REALLY need to start beefin up on our technology so we can share imagesm, audio and video bout this stuff, huh? :D

illusionfist

04-30-2004, 01:09 PM

mysteri,

The Chyun Kiu, Got Sau sequence is also repeated in Siu Hung Kuen if i'm not mistaken. Just change out the fu jow with a ping choi this time.

So basically what you have is what appears to be a crane wing block, a circular block downward into a grab (all with the same hand) and a simple reverse punch (ping choi). The "crane wing" block is the Chyun Kiu, the circular block downward is the Got Sau.

*edit*
Actually, now that I think about it, the whole sequence is a chyun, got, ping choi that is repeated and not a fu jow. The fu jow was a rare variation that I've seen, but most lineages play it with a ping choi. So hopefully this will clear up a bit of the confusion.

This sequence is obviously important because it's repeated in many of the forms.

Peace :D

CLFNole

04-30-2004, 01:36 PM

I think its a misconception that CLF comes from Choy Gar. Choy is for Choy Fook and is not associated with Choy Gar but rather the Shaolin Temple.

Much of the CLF fistwork was influenced from Choy Fook, legwork from Lay Yau San and palming from (well lets not go there) buddhist influences.

Of the five famous southern family styles: hung, lau, choy, lay & mok. According to some history Lay Yau San was the founder of Lay Gar but Choy Fook was not the founder of Choy Gar.

Having never seen Choy Gar as it is quite rare the founder could have had common lineage with Choy Fook. Choy Fook's teaching come from Monk Gok Yuen and Bak Yuk Fung.

I have heard many times that some of the Jow brothers learned CLF. Maybe people claim the Choy Gar Hung Gar mix instead of the CLF influence for political reasons, who knows. CLF has northern influences, which could explain Jow Gar's northern influence as well. Jow Gar does not resemble Bak Siu Lum at all (northern shaolin - the style of Ku Yu Cheong).

Just something to think about.

To me though Jow Gar is about the mid point between CLF and Hung Gar. Not quite the same power as CLF and not the same as Hung Gar, but rather mixes the best of each somewhat.

Peace.

Fu-Pow

04-30-2004, 01:54 PM

CLF Nole-

That was what I was trying to get at in my post from before. Some people claim CLF is Choy Ga + Lee Ga. I don't think that is correct. If you started a style and your surname was Choy or Lee then anything you taught might have the name Choy Ga or Lee Ga. In other words, there might have been hundreds of Choy Ga and Lee Ga styles in Southern China. Not just one of each!

As to the combination you guys are describing it sounds like

Left Chyun Kiuh (penetrating bridge), Left Puhn Kiuh (downward and inward circular block), Left Lah (grab), Right Ping Cheuih (level strike) as we would say in CLF (correct Yale romanization BTW:p ).

But hard to tell without seeing it. Too bad we don't all have webcams.

illusionfist

04-30-2004, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
CLF Nole-

As to the combination you guys are describing it sounds like

Left Chyun Kiuh (penetrating bridge), Left Puhn Kiuh (downward and inward circular block), Left Lah (grab), Right Ping Cheuih (level strike) as we would say in CLF (correct Yale romanization BTW:p ).

But hard to tell without seeing it. Too bad we don't all have webcams.

Yer on the money Fu Pow. That's the technique.

Peace :D

mysteri

04-30-2004, 02:01 PM

illusionfist-

ahhh! NOW i know what ur talkin about. i think in CLF they call one of their open-handed outside circular bridges "chuen nau." in my branch of jow ga, we call that repeated sequence "jiu sau"(dissolving hand), "gort sau"(cutting/slicing hand), "na sau"(grabbing hand). this sequence is repeated in all of our forms and yes it is most important. the "jiu sau" and "gort sau," however, come to us from SPM(according to my sifu). we do it a lil different than CLF and SPM. actually, they're both used a lot of different ways. the "na sau" looks similar to "pak sau" of wing chun, but we use is as a soft bridge to come over-down-grab(one motion), but its unlike fu jow or ying jow. glad we got that clarified, u are certainly correct about its importance.

CLFNole-

thanx for ur input on the matter. ur theories make sense and none of us do really know for sure. all we can go by is what we've been taught and how we "play" our gung fu. i think if more choy ga were to start sprouting up, then we could definitely clear up a lot of mystery. and u r correct, jow ga does not resemble bak siu lum at all. however, there are some northern forms that some people like to practice and incorporate into their gung fu. i guess they like the variety. me, i jus like whatever works, is simple and is not unnatural.

illusionfist

04-30-2004, 02:18 PM

Mysteri,

Yeah, lots of words to describe the same stuff. I stayed away from using the term "poon kiu" because I've heard it as "got sau" more- even between CLF, Hung Kuen, and Jow Gar camps. So I figured it would be more common of a term.

I find it interesting that you say this sequence is actually from SPM. I can't see the SPM in it at all. The shape doesn't seem conducive to their type of ging. Is this where you were thinking the Tun To Fou Chum came in? If so, I'd have to disagree because that type of usage is not present in the way Jow Gar uses that faht.

Peace :D

Fu-Pow

04-30-2004, 03:31 PM

mysteri

04-30-2004, 10:45 PM

Originally posted by illusionfist
Mysteri,

Yeah, lots of words to describe the same stuff. I stayed away from using the term "poon kiu" because I've heard it as "got sau" more- even between CLF, Hung Kuen, and Jow Gar camps. So I figured it would be more common of a term.

I find it interesting that you say this sequence is actually from SPM. I can't see the SPM in it at all. The shape doesn't seem conducive to their type of ging. Is this where you were thinking the Tun To Fou Chum came in? If so, I'd have to disagree because that type of usage is not present in the way Jow Gar uses that faht.

Peace :D

illusionfist, the way that fu-pow describes the sequence(chuen-gort-la) is the way that we do it in my lineage. as for the "sequence" comin from mantis, i think u misunderstood my words. only the "jiu sau" and "gort sau" as far as i know derive from mantis. lemme try to elaborate a bit.

jiu sau- from natural stance(like wuji), right fist is chambered and left guarding hand is across the body(like "hiding the fist"). jiu sau comes from right middle gate in an outside motion past the face and does not go past left shoulder-line. this motion pivoted on the left elbow(which of course remains sunken). the fingers are open and relaxed and shoulde make a straight line across the top of the wrist with the forearm. the thumb, for the most part, is pointin toward ur opponent/bridge. this is our outside circular dissolving hand(jiu sau).

gort sau- if we go from the previous jiu sau illustration, gort sau could go as follows... from left jiu sau, move the bride in front of the center line with elbow still sunk and the four fingers should all be along the centerline toward opponent/bridge(thumb foward). using sinking energy(and yiu ging, if u like), the fingers point downward creating a hook along the outer(left) wrist and the pinky finger. as the elbow and forearm ride along the body, this bridge moves from upper gate to middle gate by "slicing/cutting" downward(usually along the centerline) finishing in an outward arc and stopping at the (left) hip(fingers out about 45deg). i'm not sure how "gort sau" is used in CLF so i can't comment. poon kiu, as far as i know, doesn't look anything like our gort sau.

hopefully my illustration was vivid enough for u all to capture;, keep in mind also, however, that these two examples are jus two common primary ways to apply this technique. the "shape" of the hands definitely do look like what u'd see in SPM. can't compare their ging and faht cuz i'm really not familiar enough w/ SPM to be sure. as far as swallow/spit/float/sink, i guess i really shouldn't comment on the way its done in jow ga since i've never been introduced to it formally in jow ga yet. what i was refering to more was in the footwork and rooting. in my own opinion,from watching CLF and comparing it to what i practice, it feels like jow ga still is prolly more heavy-footed in its footwork whereas CLF still seems to be much lighter and mobile with the footwork. i would attribute that to the hung essence of jow ga. but this is from my own limited experience and observation of course.

hope i made sense! :D

illusionfist

05-01-2004, 12:12 AM

Gotcha.

Peace :D

Fu-Pau

05-02-2004, 09:19 PM

CLFNole,
I have seen a couple of websites that say that Chow Gar is a mix of Hung Gar and CLF. But I think that is a misconception. Usually that assumption is made (IMO) because CLF is better known than Choy Gar and the people that say that Chow Gar contains CLF are not really aware of the distinction between CLF and Choy Gar. Usually the histories that refer to Chow Gar containing CLF are inaccurate in other respects too.
As far as it being 'political' to claim Choy Gar instead of CLF, I just can't see that. Why would Chow Lung and his brothers (or their students) have wanted to hide a connection to CLF? What purpose would that have served?
Anyway, Chow Gar's history is not that old. My Sifu was taught by Chow Biu, and he tells me that Chow Lung learned Choy Gar. What we do 'know' is that Chow Lung learned from Choy Kau in Siu Hing County. I don't know where you could find a Choy Gar family tree to find reference, or even if Choy Kau would necessarily show up on it anyway? It would be interesting to know if Choy Kau of Siu Hing County appears in any CLF lineages?

Mysteri,
I'm with Illusionfist regarding jiu sau. I can't really see the SPM link there. Also jiu sau is in every Chow Gar hand set that I can think of (and some weapons too. eg 'seung tau kwan', and 'seung gaarp tan' - both in the opening ceremony). it is probably one of Chow Gar's most important blocks.
I can't recall for certain (so don't quote me) but I'm pretty sure I've seen jiu sau in a Hung Gar VCD from China that I saw a couple of months ago.

I don't think that I have seen Bak Siu Lum live. However I did see a webpage recently (which I now regret not book-marking) that had photos of various postures/techniques, quite a few of which looked very much like Chow Gar. I suppose you can't always tell a lot from still photos though... but looked very reminiscent of 'lohan kune'.

cheers

CLFNole

05-03-2004, 08:01 AM

Fu-Pau:

I am by no means any kind of authority on Jow Gar. The thing I wonder about though is that, as you said Jow Gar is a relatively new style. That being said you don't see any Choy Gar around now so why the drop off of that style so quick. Maybe it is popular in China still. During the time of Jow Lung and his brothers there was definately some kind of link with buk sing CLF, as a number of sifus learned both styles.

Neither of us have seen Choy Gar, however knowing CLF and having seen Jow Gar there are things seen in both as discussed earlier. When you get down to it all of the southern styles have common elements and likely borrowed from each other. Choy Gar is one of the 5 souther family styles so Jow Gar is likely Hung Gar and Choy Gar. I am not trying to change anyone's history.

Peace.

Fu-Pau

05-03-2004, 07:36 PM

CLFNole

I'm no authority either :) all I know is my own school's lineage. I have read however that Kong On (an early sifu in the Bak Sing CLF lineage) had been a student of Chow Lung for 4 years. When Chow Lung passed away, Kong On went on and learned CLF and incorporated some Chow Gar into his lineage of Bak Sing CLF. (see Vince Lacey's web site).
I am not aware of any other Chow Gar / CLF connections... except that both styles flourished at the same time in HK and Canton.

cheers

mysteri

05-04-2004, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by Fu-Pau

Mysteri,
I'm with Illusionfist regarding jiu sau. I can't really see the SPM link there. Also jiu sau is in every Chow Gar hand set that I can think of (and some weapons too. eg 'seung tau kwan', and 'seung gaarp tan' - both in the opening ceremony). it is probably one of Chow Gar's most important blocks.
I can't recall for certain (so don't quote me) but I'm pretty sure I've seen jiu sau in a Hung Gar VCD from China that I saw a couple of months ago.

I don't think that I have seen Bak Siu Lum live. However I did see a webpage recently (which I now regret not book-marking) that had photos of various postures/techniques, quite a few of which looked very much like Chow Gar. I suppose you can't always tell a lot from still photos though... but looked very reminiscent of 'lohan kune'.

cheers

fu_pau, i really don't know what to say. yes, jiu sau is in almost every form i've seen as well. but since i've not seen much SPM in person, i guess i can't really confirm. i do specifically remember my sifu pointin out to me before,"jiu sau and gort sau derive from mantis." at the time, i never really asked for specifics or clarity so i've always assumed it was SPM. he's performed other SPM techniques for us before(w/ phoenix eye fist) and to me i thought his open-handed techniques looked an awful lot like our jiu/gort. o well, i guess sometimes its jus okay to agree to disagree :)

as far as bak siu lum is concerned, i've seen this performed at tournaments and in person and to me, only a few of our forms(other than the completely northern ones) have what i would call a 'hint' of bak siu lum. i definitely think "hung tao choy mei" is a better representation of what i've practiced over the years if we're talkin about derivative. my sifu doesn't let on to care too much for much northern technique(but then again, he was raised in canton and hong kong, so go figure! :D) i don't know lohan kuen and i've never actually seen it in my school, so i can't comment. have u ever seen a form called "shaolin iron shoe?" now THAT form is pretty interesting. :D

Fu-Pau

05-04-2004, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by mysteri

fu_pau, i really don't know what to say. yes, jiu sau is in almost every form i've seen as well. but since i've not seen much SPM in person, i guess i can't really confirm. i do specifically remember my sifu pointin out to me before,"jiu sau and gort sau derive from mantis." at the time, i never really asked for specifics or clarity so i've always assumed it was SPM. he's performed other SPM techniques for us before(w/ phoenix eye fist) and to me i thought his open-handed techniques looked an awful lot like our jiu/gort. o well, i guess sometimes its jus okay to agree to disagree :)

Mysteri, i'm not disagreeing per se :) I just couldn't personally see the SPM link in there. You could be right though if that is what your sifu told you. However I would have thought that a 'block' (not that it is really a 'block') like jiu sau would have been fairly universal to southern kung fu and is probably in hung gar, choy gar and spm as well as chow gar? until this thread the origin of jiu sau had never really crossed my mind :)

as far as bak siu lum is concerned, i've seen this performed at tournaments and in person and to me, only a few of our forms(other than the completely northern ones) have what i would call a 'hint' of bak siu lum. i definitely think "hung tao choy mei" is a better representation of what i've practiced over the years if we're talkin about derivative. my sifu doesn't let on to care too much for much northern technique(but then again, he was raised in canton and hong kong, so go figure! )

That's cool. At least you've actually seen Bak Siu Lum performed. I haven't. My comment was really based on some photos on a website that I had seen that looked a lot like 'lohan kuen'

i don't know lohan kuen and i've never actually seen it in my school, so i can't comment. have u ever seen a form called "shaolin iron shoe?" now THAT form is pretty interesting.

Lohan kuen is full of long fist techniques - a lot of pow choi, lok choi, kam choi, siew yeng bai mei etc, and ke lum po stance as well. a bit like double daggers but without all the sweeps :) It clearly has northern influence in it but blended with southern stances.

I haven't seen 'shaolin iron shoe' ... well at least i don't recognise the name... Do you know its Cantonese name?

cheers
Fu-Pau :)