CMA vs. JMA training focus

[Octavius]

Just some random thoughts:

Been doing some JMA for a bit (Japanese JJ, aikido, BBT)

And CMA (HG, TJC, BGZ, TLKF)

Prior Caveat #1: all of these arts train for fluidity, power, balance, structure, etc, etc.

Prios Caveat #2: I am not making any value calls, just some objective observations.

I've notices that in the CMA, the 1st emphasis is in learning the control your own body - structure (i.e. stances), energy (i.e. hei gung), power (i.e. fajing development, etc).

In the JMA, the 1st emphasis is in positional control - i.e. moving your body in an advantageous way around/about/relative to the opponent.

In CMA, positional control comes as a result of the body control. In JMA, the body control comes along with the positional control.

Anyone have related experiences or observations?

[rogue]

As a generalization, I'd agree with that.

[SevenStar]

good thread.

[red5angel]

ok

[Vash]

What about OMA?

[joedoe]

Interesting observations.

[IronFist]

JMA is about the whole class turning and punching and yelling "kiai!" all at the same time.

CMA is divided between being flowery, and learning why your art is too deadly for the street or ring.

:D

j/k

[Vash]

And OMA is about fuggin' up them playa hatas.

Sho Nuph!

[YinYangDagger]

IMO, the OMA are probably closer to "the real deal" than both JMA and CMA.

When I trained in Isshinryu, it was very, very hard core. The guy I learned from, Tom Mosman in Jacksonville, NC, believed in full contact right after learning the basics. When I say full contact, I mean everything was allowed except punches to the face (on those days we had to wear boxing gloves). Groin shots, full-power kicks to the head, low kicks to the legs, all legal. He learned his Isshinryu while stationed in Okinawa for years. The dropout rate at his school was around 90%. One of his philosophy's was, when you punch the makiwara, you only stopped after leaving blood on the post. I know I'll get a lot of derogatory statements over this, but the makiwara training was optional. :D

Also, we focused a lot on bunkai, techniques performed exactly as they were taught in the kata. I have yet to find any school that comes even close to the level of intensity as his. Granted, not all OMA teach this way, but this is just my personal experience. Also, look at the forms in the Okinawan arts, hardly any "flower-power" at all. Sometimes I think that if the REAL kung fu is still alive, it's coming from the OMA. Just my opinion.

[Vash]

YYD has taken the correct and forced it to do knuckle pushups on the concrete.

Seems like it's always the Isshinryu peeps who was goin' hard core.

I've been whupped thoroughly by both CMA and JMA practitioners, though.

In all honesty, I pizz on the makiwara. The heavy bag is much safer. And injuries incurred during sparring don't make you a better martial artist, they make you an injured martial artist.
Intensity = Golden, Full Contact = Golden, Causing Injury for Sake of Toughness = *******.

[YinYangDagger]

- forced it to do knuckle pushups on the concrete.

Funny you should say that. We each had two bricks of our own that we would do knuckle push ups on.

The makiwara was not only used to train power, but also for pain-tollerance build up. Everyone that stayed training there really had a feeling that they could hold their own in a fight, which IMO is a neccessary key to surviving an encounter.

We had some Uechi-ryu guys come in every once in a while. Each and every one of them tough SOB's. They actually used their shins on the makiwara posts. I'm not talking patty-cake type strikes, either. Full force strikes you could hear inside the dojo (the makiwara were all outside in a neat little row).

Ahh, the good old days :D

[SevenStar]

bah. OMA is just watered down CMA. real men train thai boxing. :D

[Vash]

All right, who snitched?

[No_Know]

One goes one way, one goes the other.

They meet on the other side of World.

Then they pass and walk the other's path.

And advance by returning to the beginning-Ernie Moore Jr.

I No_Know

[joedoe]

Originally posted by YinYangDagger
IMO, the OMA are probably closer to "the real deal" than both JMA and CMA.

When I trained in Isshinryu, it was very, very hard core. The guy I learned from, Tom Mosman in Jacksonville, NC, believed in full contact right after learning the basics. When I say full contact, I mean everything was allowed except punches to the face (on those days we had to wear boxing gloves). Groin shots, full-power kicks to the head, low kicks to the legs, all legal. He learned his Isshinryu while stationed in Okinawa for years. The dropout rate at his school was around 90%. One of his philosophy's was, when you punch the makiwara, you only stopped after leaving blood on the post. I know I'll get a lot of derogatory statements over this, but the makiwara training was optional. :D

Also, we focused a lot on bunkai, techniques performed exactly as they were taught in the kata. I have yet to find any school that comes even close to the level of intensity as his. Granted, not all OMA teach this way, but this is just my personal experience. Also, look at the forms in the Okinawan arts, hardly any "flower-power" at all. Sometimes I think that if the REAL kung fu is still alive, it's coming from the OMA. Just my opinion.

Interesting statement. So you have visited every CMA and JMA school? ;)

[YinYangDagger]

Read again, where I said from MY experience. Yes, I've tried other JMA, CMA, and KMA martial arts.

Are there other "hard core" schools out there? Yeah, prolly so.

[ShaolinTiger00]

real men train thai boxing.

SevenStar has plumbed the correct and is skipping knees off it as we speak.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by YinYangDagger
Read again, where I said from MY experience. Yes, I've tried other JMA, CMA, and KMA martial arts.

Are there other "hard core" schools out there? Yeah, prolly so.

You read again. You did not say 'in my experience' you said 'IMO' which implies a completely different thing. ;)

[YinYangDagger]

ok, ok... How's this: IMO based off my experiences...:D

[joedoe]

Much better :D

[dodger87]

And MMA is all about rubbing all over other men on the ground as if you were having gay sex.

j/ks.

[WinterPalm]

I think people also need to question the reason why they are learning a martial art. If you are wanting to enter a ring on the level of UFC or something to that sort, then you should be trained as to the guidelines expected in that venue.
If you expect constant conflict on the street, then something of a military art such as what most people describe of JMA and OMA. That is just what I've heard I have no experience in either, however, most people have said they learned these while in Okinawa or Japan while in the military. The use of military martial arts is obviously going to be very high in intensity.
For people like myself, students who don't wish to be beaten to a pulp in a ring, or broken apart and unable to study from the training, a slower process is necessary. I feel that is where most CMA that I know, including the one I practice, are at. Not to say the training is not brutal, I've had so many weird bruises, or that the training has no application in a real world situation, but the approach is not to go out and fight but to avoid the fight but higher thinking.
I suppose quite a few people will disagree, which is odd considering this is a Kung Fu forum, I see more and more people learning martial arts to beat people up or to be tough and I think that is really missing the point.:)

[greendragon]

In my experience, CMA stressed being rooted, power coming from the ground up. In JMA, more mobility is stressed. Still "under-weighted" but moving to distract, unbalance and lead, more like TaiChiChuan with a circular BaKua finish. However as i am writing this i realize that these terms (CMA & JMA) are far too general and both share a great deal. I train in both.
And as for OMA, they are clearly closer to the Japanese than the Chinese.

[YinYangDagger]

And as for OMA, they are clearly closer to the Japanese than the Chinese.

I don't believe that to be the case at all. The Okinawans learned their martial arts directly from the Chinese. It was a period of many decades BEFORE Okinawa-te was presented to Japan. Look at styles like Uechi-ryu. It looks A LOT more like kung fu than Shotokan.

[rogue]

Shotokan doesn't look like Shotokan.

[Starchaser107]

http://www.uechi-ryu.com/videos/u_kata.html

[Starchaser107]

in all fairness looking at the sansei ryu kata @ the above posted link, it does imo have more of a chinese flavour as opposed to japanese. i'm not sure about the others though , but if somebody said they saw it i wouldnt say they're out of thier minds.

[Starchaser107]

might i add that comment was in refernce to the first guy that performed it , in the blue shirt ...fat guy with long hair, not the second guy, old guy in white karate gi.

[YinYangDagger]

From the same site, on their boards:

Urchi-ryu Kata: I have overheard comments such as "what the hell was that" or "geez that looked weird" after someone finished viewing a Uechi kata performance." U-eee cheeryu?" "oh yea, that funny style where you walk like you're crippled".
Uechi kata tend to be a tad short for competition purposes in a mixed style venue. Many styles employ varied emphisis and speeds when executing kata--most Uechi people tend to be too fast with the same emphisis on every move ka thump - ka thump -ka thump- ka thump-ka thump until finished 30 seconds later.
We stand up too much,knees are too pinched and we do not have an abundance of LARGE "KARATE" MOTIONS of the generic type.

[greendragon]

OMA.. maybe coming from Daito Ryu not Shoto Con. I'm sticking to my story.

[WinterPalm]

The guy in the blue shirt was incredible! That was the best Karate I've ever seen and probably how it was meant to be done originally.

[Vash]

*gasp*

That was some good stuff. Check this out. (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/009/002/001.html) Same set, different practitioner.

Wish there was more quality OMA. *sigh*