Curious..

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

As i read many of the posts on various forums a question comes to mind.. assuming i know the difference between Tai Chi and Taijiquan, what is your opinions of the Art as a whole.. is it primarily a martial art and should be taught as such, or.. is it a complete system of martial arts, health practices, meditation, philosophy, ethics, etc... I hope this can remain a civil discussion, many of the posters here have valid insights and it's a question that i personally find intriguing.. as a lead, i will admit to teaching it as a more complete way of living one's life (with a liberal dose of Martial applications).. Do you think that it is appropriate to link Martial Arts to the student's life outside the Kwoon.. to suggest that much of the student's activities aside from direct practice are contributory to the overall quality of his/her chosen Art..

Just curious, Be well...

[bamboo_ leaf]

In East and West, we call someone wise when he can predict the outcome of events when things are still in this neither/nor stage. This stage is also called xuan, or mistery. In western logic something is either A or Not A, in Chinese philosophy we think there's a third state - not A, and not Not A. In western logic we would say something is either yin or yang, but in daoist philosophy we say there're another stage in between - Tai Ji, neither just yin, nor just yang, but capable of producing yin and yang. It has the potential to be either based on interaction of yin and yang inside that object. This is what Wang Zong Yue talks about in the very first line of Tai Ji Classics when he said 'Taiji is the mother of Yin and Yang'.

http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=done;action=display;num=1082743457; start=0

This post was written on EF by one of the posters there, i would like to share it here ;) . The teaching and learning as I approach it is one of really embodying and understanding this concept.

The usefulness of it is exprinced by interactions in everyday life or some type of physical conflict.

[GLW]

I love the misuse of the word Taiji or Tai Chi...

As in "I do Tai Chi"

I end up thinking..."OK, so exactly HOW do you do the ideas of Yin and Yang?"

Tai Chi Chuan - Taijiquan - the fist method martial style whatever based upon the concepts of Taiji - Yin and Yang...the Grand Terminus, the Miraculous Pivot, etc....

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Nicely done.. good link.. quality post..

Thanks,
Bob

[Ou Ji]

Contemplating the duality of the universe (and life) is interesting but completely misses the third. The third being the combination of the two. It's found in eastern (yin/yang = tao) and western (father/son = holy ghost) religeons. Since the two are connected it follows that there is a transitionl point between the two as bamboo_ leaf states.

To answer the question (or at least give my opinion) I think TC is complete although a teacher or school can focus on whatever aspects he/she prefers to teach. Personally I don't see many people looking to TC for the fighting aspects. Most seem to focus on health with the defensive aspects secondary and comforting.

Everything you learn and do should (and I believe does) affect your whole life. If not then why bother to learn something?

When your mind is open you see the relationships between seemingly unrelated ideas and activities. Does a youngster playing baseball realize he is boosting his immune system due to the exercise or is he just 'playing a game'?

[Josh Vogel]

Hi,
I'm new to the forum, so I should explain that I'm no expert and not a particularly good fighter. I do train hard and work to improve. That being said, I've done tai chi on and off for the last four years and have found that it's one of those things that seem like you need the best teachers and devote oneself completely to it. By this I mean that it's much more difficult to reconcile boxing or grappling training with Tai chi than Bagua or Hsing I. That's just my experience. Doing anything besides your choice art is going to influence it in some way, but this seems amplified with tai chi specifically.

I've found personally that it's best to think of it in terms of attributes that I want. If my sparring or playing is getting to static and not flowing, then I will work on doing some tai chi to get more fluidity and continuity into my body. I don't work so much on drilling the specific techniques as when it comes to tai chi; I am not a purist, but I use what I've learned of it as a tool to get something else that I want to see in my sparring or playing. Sort of like using a wrench if I want a tighter bolt. Thanks,
Josh

[fungjiaotasty]

It is of my opinion that true taiji chuan is first and foremost, a martial art. In the past, it is a very serious skill that one did not share outside the family. Being able to apply it is the highest level of skill. All the things about health benefits are all side effects of practicing Taiji. A lot of mechanics, theory, and practice derive from chinese medical practice and qi gong.

In any case, the way I understand it is, one must be strong internally to be effective in Taiji. One practices to open all their channels so that chi flows unimpeded throughout the body, and at best case, to draw and connect to universal chi.

Yet in the case of a sick person alone. Acupuncture, herbology, qi gong... it is all used to fix any blockages. A healthy person is a person with free-flowing chi.

As it is, those who are of really high level in taiji also excel in medicine and healing. ie- Chen Fa-Ke. I believe he was also known as a very good doctor in Traditional Chinese Medicine. Plus, I think those who attain a really high level in martial art alone just become more humble, more at peace.

Chen Fa-Ke use to call himself Chen so-so, Chen "no-good." The founder of Aikido, he always wore a white belt. Shaolin monks don't practice for the sole purpose of violence. Even in the movie "Hero," we find out that the meaning of Sword alone encompasses an idea that the highest degree of martial art training will lead one into inner peace. One can become more self-less, and think for the good of others.

So not in just Taiji, but in any martial art (or hell, even my medical qi gong teacher has this attitude), pursuing it unto the end will turn someone into someone more humble and compassionate [not to mention, attaining amazing skill].

At least that's what I think.

[Josh Vogel]

Hi,
This is not intended to be a jerk reply to what you said, I'm just in a devils advocate kind of mood tonight. Plus, I'm no "king of the internal" so the grain of salt thing very much applies.

From what I understand about alot of the old masters of Tai chi or any art really; there were a fair share of good guys but also a pretty hefty amount of jerks. Even within the Yang family people like Yang Pan hou (I think that's the right one) or Bagua's Ma gui were sort of notorious for being lacking in certain social graces let us say.... Meaning that they were known for being abusive, abrasive and pretty unpleasant and compassionless. But I wasn't there, so I don't know. I do know that some of the more experienced Tai chi guys(and martial artists in general) that I have personally met are pompous, arrogant and selfish people that I've ever met, ex girlfriends included.

I've also met some pretty great people who would give you the shirt off their back or the tires off of their car.

My point is that I don't know if martial arts as such have so much to do with making someone a nicer guy. I think spiritual traditions that have been grafted onto martial traditions play that role more heavily. Anyway, that's my two cents. Thanks,
Josh

[SPJ]

Good posts.

These are all heavy stuff.

The theory of Tai Ji and life philosophy are nurtured thruout Chinese history for over 4000 years. Now modern science and NASA are nurturing it, too.

Daoism and Book of Change tried to relate changes of cosmic events, health of human body, ways of life, etc all the way to determine right monents and right places to do everything. (from giving birth to burials).

General Chen Wang Ting when retired used all his military learning and "invented" Chen Jia Quan. His family studied Wushu since Chen Pu.

As a matter of fact, you have to study Daoism, Book of Change, Wushu, Chinese medicine and human physiology, anatomy, Qi Gong on and on to fully appreciate Tai Ji Quan.

This is a big question. Shall teacher teach all of those? or shall student study all of those?

Da Zai Wen?

[shaolinboxer]

Lately I feel like the difference between tai chi and other martial arts stems from social class.

[SPJ]

I think for the most part, it depends on the students.

If he or she likes to study the "whole" deal or just a piece meal.

When I was in high school from 1975 to 1978. I studied praying mantis in Kuo Shu club. That led to my study of Tai Tzu Chan Quan and general Han Tong's Tong Bei Quan. These are among 18 Jia's in mantis. Legend has it that General Han was fighting Sung emperor. His Tong Bei was "undefeatible" at the time.
I never finished studied 18 Jia's. But I did study mantis, TZCQ and TB well.

When I requested to study Tai Ji Quan, I was told I was not ready.

Even later when I studied Chen's Tai Ji, I was so busied to do the moves right. The Zhuang gong, Qi gong, Jin gong etc. I was told to meditate when I did Zhuang Gong or any other moves. I have no clue what it meant.

My point is that if the student wants to learn more, he or she may. But everything takes time and practice.

Oh, meditating parts.

Chen's Lau Jia Yi Lu. Start->open Tai Ji-> Jing Kong Dau Zwei.

I move my left leg to the left. In order to move down, I have to raise my both hands up first. I move my hands to the left so I can move them the right. I retract my left foot. I move my hands backward a little, so that I may move them forward.

On and on.

[Josh Vogel]

"Oh, meditating parts.

Chen's Lau Jia Yi Lu. Start->open Tai Ji-> Jing Kong Dau Zwei.

I move my left leg to the left. In order to move down, I have to raise my both hands up first. I move my hands to the left so I can move them the right. I retract my left foot. I move my hands backward a little, so that I may move them forward."

Hi,

I have a couple of questions:

1. I may be misunderstanding something, but I'm not sure how the above quote would be considered meditating.

2. I was wondering something about your experience with MA's in general as it sounds like you've studied a few. In alot of systems, (I think most heavily focused on in I chuan), there is a practice method of using opposite force. Meaning if my left elbow pulls straight left, then my right elbow pulls straight right to balance it out. Same thing with pulling up on the head and down with the hips and pushing out with the knees and feet; basically every thing pushes in every possible direction in direct relation to it's corresponding parts (use hold the ball posture for example, the arms make a circle like a bike tire. Expand out equally from the center of the circle. Do this with the rest of your body and that's what I mean). Then there is the opposite, pulling in. For every circle that you are expanding equally outward from, pull in towards the center of that circle a little more than you push out.

My question is if you've found any this particular training method in any of the arts that you've encountered. The only places that I've really seen any in depth focusing on this particular method is in I chuan and some styles of Hsing I.

I guess it's sort of an open question to anyone who has anything to say.

3. How do you (everyone) define meditation? As mentioned above, I hear alot of people use Tai chi as an example and I'm curious what people think. As for me, I can't really say. I've experienced specific meditation inserted into Tai chi forms or Pakua circle walking and I've done some sitting meditation. It seems like there's a fine line between doing chi kung and doing meditation; I'm not experienced enough to say what that line is, but I'd be interested to hear what other peoples experience is.

Thanks,
Josh

[SPJ]

Good insights.

General Meditations may be grouped into 4 basics and more.

1. Mind: focused, refreshed, and then reasoning to know the truth.

2. Emotions/feelings: love, hate, anger, peace, etc, you want to reach true feelings and reconcile. eventually loving kindness or compassion. self moderating and self adjusting.

3. Body: sitting in lotus (leg-crossed) and sense your Qi flow. Feels your internal and external senses. You may also meditate while moving or standing.

4. Spirits: higher consciousness. pondering purpose of your life and all.

5. Prayer or affirmations: religious practices.

Martial arts meditations depend on your school, as you pointed out.

When I practice Zhuang Gong, for example high horse riding stance for 25 min. I have to relax all the muscles and find a comfort center. My mind is not wandering around. I focus my feet to be rooting into earth. I focus my feet, knee and sacral and up to Dan Tien (2 inches below navel). I feels my chest and abdomen, on and on. To outsiders, I am standing. To me, I am meditating by focusing and sensing my body parts and training my body to be able to be comfortable and "fixed" in my fighting stance. (category 1 and 3)

When I practice forms, I was told to focus on 2 moves ahead. (level 1). This is a moving meditation. A lot of forms are moves, countermoves and counter countermoves in a series or several attacks with defenses in a series. This way I may be reminded to think 2 steps ahead. There are more levels and variations of "meditations" for CMA.

Why these important?

When fight, your body "response" or some subconsciousness take over and they are fast. Your consciousness may be in pain, in fear, in anger and is slow. Meditation exercise may remove most of those. Still. Your body is responding faster then your mind. Zhuang Gong will get you there. They are roots.

It needs books after books to discuss CMA meditations beyond Qi Gong.

The example I used in the previous post, is to practice to go to the east that I have to be in the west first. This is a Tai Ji level 1 maneuver. In order to pull, I have to push first. on and on.

Sorry about the confusion. In CMA, thinking or will is the highest level of training. When you practice moves in forms, you are training your mind or thinking too. That part is what I was refering to. At a higher level, there is only mind "doing" the forms and no body movements. Qi Gong is another level, you use your mind or will to move your Qi to the limbs and "practice" forms without actually moving your limbs.

In short, that is a general theory of 3 levels of CMA training. Mind/will, Qi and body. This way the three are in one when fighting.

In other words, these are all "meditations". When you see me praticing Tai Ji forms, I am actually doing the 3 levels of meditations.

[Josh Vogel]

Hi,

That was a great post! Thanks for the reply. Alot of what you were talking about as far as specific meditations are essentially alot of the same practices that I do i.e Standing (I chuan training), thinking two steps ahead (in the Bagua that I've done, there is a similar practice of feeling like you are on the verge of changing into a different technique when doing set forms. It's tough) and other things like dissolving and such.

More and more I'm finding intention and awareness to be very important in martial practices and methods used to develop these things will vary, but I'm finding actual sparring and standing meditation to be the best methods for me that I've found to work on this. But in the end, these meditations are all geared towards martial art purposes with spiritual aims being secondary.

It's a difficult thing to explain and I may be totally off since I'm not the most experienced guy in the world. But I think what I'm getting at is the idea that martial arts grafted meditation systems into their practices, I'm guessing mainly to eliminate unconcious reactions during sparring such as fear, pausing at a critical moment and having exploitable gaps in awareness when ones mind wanders for a moment. One might be able to say that in some instances, martial arts can be an adjunct to meditation or vice versa; but for me personally and as I've been taught the two practices tend to be focused on one at a time if one is to develop more potential in either. I mean that right now, I'm interested primarily in martial arts and less so in spirituality (which is not to say that it's not there, just a lesser focus). Is one a health pursuer or a fighter or a meditator? When my potential is reached in one area, then I will focus on another if it's the right time. I think the phrase "you are what you do" rings true in this case.

Part of this idea is based on the nature of basic meditation. The idea of removing unnecesary distractions from ones mind. Meditation within martial practices is still martial. I think that when one talks about the old cheezy cliche of "going with the flow" and living that way, it doesn't mean because doing so is good or bad, but simply because living that way provides less distractions and less things to cloud the mind. Then one can start to figure out what is really going on with ones self (not that I have, I just figured out how to download video clips; that's as far as I've gotten in my self searching....) How much time can one devote to figuring out what's going on upstairs if you are doing forms, drills, two person stuff, etc... all the time. That's what I meant about doing one thing at a time. Similarly, how good can I get at martial arts if all I do is seated meditation or moving meditation? Even moving meditation is a different intent than one has when sparring (for me).

But I guess, as you pointed out, that it has something to do with what tradition one is involved in or what method one does. Alchemical traditions are different than zazen which is different than Gnostic christian traditions. Also, perhaps it's due partially to the level of development in ones martial arts. I've heard about some people who seem to develop similar personal results eventually through martial practice as meditators do. Who knows? All I know is that it's fun talking about this stuff and it's two A.M, time for bed.....

Thanks,
Josh

[count]

Everything in life is a meditation. The key is, how much of it can you hold onto when you have finished it? Same is true for martial arts (Tai Chi).

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Regarding Meditation, it has been my experience, after trying several types of meditations, that the most beneficial is the meditation of shutting down "mental Chatter".. that little voice in your mind that you dialogue with all the time.. that "voice" is the voice of your mentors, your past experiences, it is your prejudices.. quieting that voice allows you to have a direct unprejudiced experience (live in the moment).. the thoughtful consideration of an experience occurrs while another experience is is happening without our full attention (lost in thought).. to the degree we think about experiences we separate ourselves from the current experience.. Now, that is not to suggest that we don't think.. only that there should be an awareness of appropriate thinking, when it is beneficial and when it is not..

Visualizations, affirmations, and rigidly structured "meditations" may have some uses for beginning the discipline of meditation, but should quickly be recognized as a distraction from the goal.. One of the great benefits, for me, in the "meditation of "still-mind" is that it permits the experience to by-pass the mental evaluation, categorizing and filing system and the experience seems to imprint itself directly into my spirit/soul, it becomes a part of "who i am", not an entry into the mental filing cabinet.. future use of that experience is immediately available as it is needed, it counsels me through "me", i do not spend time sorting through the memory banks and comparing appropriate responses, i just seem to "know".. This "knowing" is extremely useful in Martial Arts, it permits real-time interaction rather than the delayed reaction waiting on mental responses..

Taiji is a remarkable tool for training the art of "mental stillness" in motion.. after learning the form of Taijiquan, we begin to slowly shut down the thinking of the movements in favor of a deeper "knowing" the movements.. this demonstrates the ability to move through life in a meditative state, whenever appropriate..

Just another perspective, Be well..