Larp Sao - Is it a thumbless grip in ALL lineages of wing chun?

[WCFighter]

Hi everyone,

I came across an interesting article :

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/why/articles/historical/pan_wan01.html

It mentions that this particular lineage has different/more grabbing techniques/approaches than the Yip Man lineage.
(which is fine by me. :) )

They don't show pictures of these techniques, but since wing
chun has some crane aspects to it, I was just curious if
any lineages used fingers AND the thumb in their grabs.
(I trained a little in Flying White Crane Kung Fu with Sifu Lorne
Bernard in Montreal and we used to grab with the fingers and thumb. Kinda like in this picture here :
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=132
)

In my lineage we are advised not to grab with the thumb. And searching on articles
on this matter on the net, a lot of people usually advise against
using the thumb in a grab.


I am curious to know what wing chunners feel/know about this
matter.

[kj]

FWIW, we are among those advised to never use the "tiger's mouth. Controlling, yes; grabbing, never. Thumb is along side the fingers or slightly tucked as appropriate, rather than in an opposing, C-shaped, or strength-dependent grip. That's the aim, anyway.

Regards,
- kj

[reneritchie]

KJ, as per usual, has Lap Sao'd the correct.

Typically both variations exist for a reason and each has different advantages/disadvantages (yup, everything has a little of both), which allows each to work better under different circumstances/conditions.

No thumb allows for a strong grip. With thumb allows for more angles of control and sensation.

[Shadowboxer]

We are taught not to grab with the thumb because it can be trapped and broken quickly or it can be torqued in a bad sense when someone rotates into kwun sao from your attempted ding jarn as you punch back at them.

[KingMonkey]

We use the thumb, which bearing in mind humans evolved an opposable digit to solve this sort of a mechanical problem makes sense IMHO.

[WCFighter]

Thanks for your replies.

Rene Ritchie:

So based on your research, you are saying that both types of larp saos exist and are
both valid, depending on what you are trying to accomplish?


Shadowboxer:

Can you give an example of the thumb being trapped?
I have heard of this disadvantage, but noone really showed me
how this is accomplished.

For example:

If I am larping with one hand to attack the person's balance, and
punching him in the head with the other, how can my thumb be trapped?



As for fingers getting broken, I think that other wing chun techniques can get your fingers broken IF they are done wrong.
For example, if your tan sao fingers go right into the oncoming fist, or the garn sao fingers go right into a mid level round kick. Both situations are examples of techniques done incorrectly which
have led to broken fingers. Why are people so worried about larp
sao thumbs helping the grip? I can understand that when counter-attacking a round punch, a practicioner would want to
do the larp with the meat of the hand first, and then adjust the thumb afterwards. But during an attack (Lop/Punch), when the opponent is not doing anything at that millisecond, why not use the thumb for a better grip ( his arms may be sweaty) ?

I have found that larping an opponent's sweaty arm without
the thumb can lead to a loss of grip. Wouldn't this be a good time
to use a larp with the thumb involved as opposed to not using
the thumb?

[Phil Redmond]

I was taught years ago to never use the thumb. But know I've learned that it depends on the circumstance. So I do use the thumb at times.

[Spark]

I was taught with no thumbs, but a collegue of mine larps with the thumbs and it is very effective, so I would say that like others have said, it probably depends on the situation and to a lesser degree your skill level.

[kj]

Originally posted by WCFighter
I have found that larping an opponent's sweaty arm without
the thumb can lead to a loss of grip. Wouldn't this be a good time
to use a larp with the thumb involved as opposed to not using
the thumb?

I can follow your reasoning on this, and have seen it many times. In "olden times" (lol) I used to train that way myself.

For me personally though, I wouldn't go that route. At least not intentionally. I'll offer a little background on why.

The moment I grip with the thumb, some tension necessarily results in my hand. When the hand tenses (even a teensy bit), the combined structure of muscles, tendons, bones and ligaments begins to change in the hand, through the wrist and forearm, all the way up and through the shoulder cage. Even a change in finger position can change the structural and tension dynamic all the way into the upper torso. (You can play and experiment with this for yourself.) Some folks will consider such changes to be insignificant, though in my experience, offering even a smidgen of undue tension to the wrong person can be a grave and unrecoverable mistake.

Once tensed - even momentarily - a more sensitive and skilled opponent can perceive the "lever arm" (sic) in a heartbeat, and utilize mechanical advantage and/or the conduit of my own stiffness against me, to disturb and ultimately control me. Moments expended in recovery offer expanding opportunities for an opponent to continue making things worse for me and better for him/herself.

Another aspect of this dilemma is that some opponents will have experience and wherewithal to turn their energy (forces) and positioning upon me soon as they feel me begin to commit a grip - such that if I release my grip, I'm in deep poo (e.g., opponents hands already positioned and poised for imminent attack). And if I don't let go, I'm still in deep poo (e.g., they can control or destroy my posture and structure, and then, there I go having to try to recover again, as before). So in a sense, by gripping with the hand (and thumb), I ironically risk inviting a sort of "trap" on myself. This sort of dynamic can play out whether the gripping involves both hands or just one. Naturally, for the same reasons, I consider it an opportunity when someone tries to grip me.

Still, as René and others point out, I concede that everything has advantages and disadvantages. Thus, looking at the problem from a different angle and context, your proposed solution may be adequate if one can indeed out-muscle, out-size, or out-skill today's opponent.

In my case, being of inherently weaker and smaller structure (e.g., relatively small bones, wrists, hands), I consider myself backhandedly lucky in the sense that I cannot get away with employing that kind of strength, tension or grips in these, my training days. Consequently, my immediate shortcomings "force" me to develop and rely on different kinds of skills and habits, to mitigate what others might assess as acceptable risks, and compel me to concern myself with what some may perceive as insignificant details.

Not an exhaustive explanation, but a few considerations offered for the sake of the discussion.

Regards,
- kj

[reneritchie]

Yeah, but if they're that skilled, they usually won't have gotten even the slightest bit sweaty :p

[kj]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Yeah, but if they're that skilled, they usually won't have gotten even the slightest bit sweaty :p

Yeah, but we'll be. :D

Regards,
- kj

[anerlich]

All the TWC forms use the thumbless larp sao, but we practice both options.

Ive been told by experts that the grip is actually stronger in the specific direction of the grip without the thumb, but of course the thumb stops the gripped limb being slipped out of in the opposite direction.

Then again, the thumb is more easily damaged this way (thugh if the guy gets out of your thumbless grip, much more of you may get damaged).

I still think I'd want the stability of a thumbed grip (preferably two) on an arm holding a knife or baton.

[S.Teebas]

thugh if the guy gets out of your thumbless grip, much more of you may get damaged.

If we are talking about using this for latching (and if the guy pulls away from your latch) then if you have good forward intention on, the fact you are NOT using a thumb grip is a good advantage.

It's a much easier path for your hand to firm a fist and strike...as opposed to getting hooked by your thumb on the opponents arm.


I still think I'd want the stability of a thumbed grip (preferably two) on an arm holding a knife or baton.

agreed

[Gangsterfist]

What if you lop correctly and do not need a tight grip. You bend your opponets structure with yours, not with force. Then you would not need the thumb. You bend them, you don't break them.

However, I can see where control might be the first option when fighting, lets say, someone with a small bladed weapon.

[anerlich]

Teebas/Gangster,

Yeah you're right - in TWC the thumbless is espoused as it allows for rapid transition between hands, and you usually are not really seeking to hold onto the guy longer than you have to to hit him. And the larp sao can be used to control areas other than the arm, such as the neck, where the use of the thumb is impractical.

In the knife combat system (Hock Hochheim) we practise, and BJJ, strong grips which can be retained and used for control and dominance are much more important.

IMHO the Big Guy put the thumb there for purposes of dexterity, using tools and handling small objects, rather than strength.

[Sam]

In Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen we use the thumb on claws or grabs with a jut pull and strike. Also for pointing. http://futsaoyongchunkuen.com/

[Wingman]

I know that the questions below are not addressed to me; but I like to answer them. If you don't mind...:)


Originally posted by WCFighter
[B]Can you give an example of the thumb being trapped?
I have heard of this disadvantage, but noone really showed me
how this is accomplished.[B]
Your thumb can be trapped (or even broken) if you don't let go. When using the thumb in lap sao, we tend to tense & tighten our grip when the opponent tries to counter. This is the disadvantage. But this disadvantage is not the defect of the technique. The blame is on the practioner who tightens his grip when the opponent tries to counter. Instead, the WC practitioner should go with the direction of the opponent's counter; while still maintaining control over his opponent.

With the thumbless lap sao, there is no tendency to tense & tighten the grip. The natural tendency is the transform the lap sao into a strike or into another technique.


If I am larping with one hand to attack the person's balance, and punching him in the head with the other, how can my thumb be trapped?
Yes, this is the way to do it. One hand strikes; while the other hand executes a lap sao. You should not concentrate on lap sao alone.


Why are people so worried about larp
sao thumbs helping the grip? I can understand that when counter-attacking a round punch, a practicioner would want to
do the larp with the meat of the hand first, and then adjust the thumb afterwards. But during an attack (Lop/Punch), when the opponent is not doing anything at that millisecond, why not use the thumb for a better grip ( his arms may be sweaty) ?
The advantange of using the thumb in lap sao is better grip. But using the thumb has its disadvantages. Refer to my comments above.


I have found that larping an opponent's sweaty arm without the thumb can lead to a loss of grip. Wouldn't this be a good time to use a larp with the thumb involved as opposed to not using the thumb?
Without using the thumb in lap sao, it can lead to loss of grip. True. This is not necessarily a disadvantage. Once you loose your grip, you can quickly transform your lap sao into a strike.

On the other hand, if you use the thumb in lap sao, you may have a better grip. This is an advantage. But this advantage can turn into a disadvantage. You might concentrate on grabbing the opponent's arm and forget about your other arm which you could use for attacking.

[fa_jing]

hmm...seems to me that using the thumb would help guide the opponent's wrist/forearm securely into your grip. I'm think of the thumb more horizontal to the person's forearm, not wrapped around it exactly. For those applications where, you know, you are trying to larp the guy's arm off while simultaneously kicking or punching with another limb. That's only a certain percentage of the larp sao apps.

[Shadowboxer]

I'll check on this tonight in class and reply tomorrow...

[Shadowboxer]

I made a mistake. I was thinking about grabbing arms using the thumb, not lop sao in particular. I also didn't get a chance to ask the person who showed me why we don't grab with the thumb. I'll try again Wed night...

[Popeye's dad]

If I were grabbing with the intent to cause pain, then I would use the thumb. If grabbing only to direct, the thumb isn't critical. I personally like the eagle claw way of grabbing with twisting motions to the joints. I know this isn't always possible, and isn't part of some peoples truth of Wing Chun. But we all know styles can be blinding, and to not do something just because it isn't included in your system is limiting, just as doing something because it is your system can also be a disadvantage.

[PaulH]

Thumb's chief usage is for grabbing onto things. As WC action must be direct attacking his center, it facilitates one's pulling action in attacking the other's balance. If it is used as a deflecting tool, there is always a danger that it can be used as a handle against you.

Regards,
PH

[Gangsterfist]

I like to use the lop on my opponets neck/shoulder region. So I generally don't use the thumb. The lop is more a sinking energy. When you grab with your thumb its more of a grappling mentality. Wing Chun definately has chin na application in it. I think its just not emphasized as being the best solution.

So, depending on how you want to lop (ie if you want to trun it into chin na) will depend on how you execute it.

I also acknowledge that sometimes you just might need to grab with the thumb to gain better control. Sometimes its harder to control certain people over others.

[IronFist]

Whoever said a thumbless grip is stronger is wrong. It might be more advantageous for whatever reason, but it's not stronger.

[anerlich]

Whoever said a thumbless grip is stronger is wrong. It might be more advantageous for whatever reason, but it's not stronger.

I'm no expert either, but can you justify or elucidate your answer?

[reneritchie]

Define "stronger" ?

In the end, like everything, this is context dependant. At what angle do you need to apply leverage? What part of your hand needs to be in contact?

Take your hand and grab your (other) forearm. Do it with the thumb first. See what angles it provides, what part of your hand it connects to your arm, what type of tension it creates, etc. Then repeat with a thumbless grip.

Rather than worry about which is "stronger" in the abstract, figure out the advantages and disadvantages of both and then apply each where they are best suited.

(Again, I use thumb when I need to control to position, no thumb when I have control in position and need to simply press).

[IronFist]

reneritchie said:

Rather than worry about which is "stronger" in the abstract, figure out the advantages and disadvantages of both and then apply each where they are best suited.

^ As I said, thumbless may be more strategically beneficial, but it's not stronger.

anerlich, with a thumb is stronger. Take a Captains of Crush gripper that you can barely close with a regular grip, and then try to close it without the thumb.

Well, ok, I'm 99% sure that with a thumb is stronger. I think it has something to do with the mechanics of where the fingers are relative to each other in each grip. If the purpose is to compress the most force into an object in the center of the hand (like you're holding/squeezing something), then thumbless grip is completely missing out on all the force you could generate with the thumb. Make sense?

[anerlich]

Ironfist,

I see your point regarding the crush gripper. I guess the question is whether the same sort of strength is applicable to "crushing" as it is to "controlling". In wrestling we are told to use the C grip without the thumb as one of the strongest general grips, though that's normally in the context of "strongest across the total range of possible angles between the forearms".

Then again, I don't see too many people deadlifting with a thumbless grip either. Anyone have any deep knowledge on this particular subject?

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Wow!
I always thought that the thumbs were also dependent on situations because of all my past training in WC but I now understand differantly, I realized that lop sau I did and know do were not the same and hardly ever the same to the T. Because of this I felt very unsure of what was being taught. Now that I understand a little more and I get a little deeper in knowledge, I see that LP needs no thumb because........ Ya, not enought time for me to explain the space I use so, got to go!
I ask one. Do you need your thumb in any other Tec. other than the grappling one?

[IronFist]

Well, don't change your technique cuz of what I said. I'm just saying that as far as strength is concerned, I'd much rather be grabbing something with my thumb than without.

But maybe positioning or other stuff might make it more advantageous to not use your thumb.

Ask your sifu about the strength thing, tho, and see what he says.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

as far as strength is concerned, I'd much rather be grabbing something with my thumb than without. This sounds as if you prefer the force against force aproach. If you're doing it because with out the thumb one looses ones stick, then maybe the action that was used was over committed or pre judge as to were one takes it (long or short). This can easly be reacted to IMO. But MO is just MO and until one feels the reality of what I speak of, only self exists.
But maybe positioning or other stuff might make it more advantageous to not use your thumb. You said it!:D

[anerlich]

Ask your sifu about the strength thing, tho, and see what he says.

My Sifu advocates both grips for different purposes. A BJJ black belt told me that the thumbless grip was stronger. Neither has deep acedemic qualifications regarding human biomechanics.


This sounds as if you prefer the force against force aproach.

I think that's a bit condescending to IronFist. Efficiency would indicate using the best grip for the circumstance.

If the larp sao'ed arm has a knife in its hand, anything but a firm grip will get your forearm sliced when he cuts the knife back or twirls. You want to CONTROL that weapon with a death grip.

Even if you allegedly never need a strong grip for fighting (an unlikely prospect IMO), there are other life situations where it could come in very handy.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

I think that's a bit condescending to IronFist.
O yeah! Sorry about that!



If the larp sao'ed arm has a knife in its hand, anything but a firm grip will get your forearm sliced when he cuts the knife back or twirls. You want to CONTROL that weapon with a death grip. You have your reality and I have mine. I figure if I really have to hold on, I'm doing something wrong. But I'd rather not chase the hand. I just think that if you really insist on grabbing someone, try not to use thumb, because this extra motion will slow your hand down by one/half of a beat, since that is working in a bigest, strongest, fastest mind set. I catch myself there playing that alot. Oops! Anyhow, Good luck in trainings, I'm out!

[Gangsterfist]

I think its all situational. I think that if someone comes at you with a knife you could get away and perhaps benefit in certain situations with out using the thumb. We train to use a monkey-grip (thumbless grip) because the thumb will put some tension throughout your arm when gripped, especially when gripped tight. More than likely if a knife came in at me (of course this if it worked this way) I would gan sao, or di bong sao it and then snap the person's neck who is trying to stab me. I wouldn't even worry about the knife, I would try to end their life as quickly as possible so I wouldn't get stabbed.

However, we all know that is not always the case. So sometimes you will have to do, what you have to do to survive. Here are some pros for using the thumb:

1)tighter grip
2)more control
3)easier to control

Some cons for using the thumb are:

1) over committment (it can be used against you)
2) well, you can break your thumb using it hehe
3) tension

So, there is obviously and time and a place to use the thumb. I mean if we didn't need them we wouldn't have them, and I am pretty sure that the human race has not evolved past the point where thumbs are used for technology. We have thumbs so we can climb, hold, and grip things.

In my experience, when I want to play nice and use submission stuff I use my thumb on the lop sao technique. However, I never hold the thumb there too long. I only hold it to get the position I want then when putting someone in a submission (chin na) I usually switch back to a less comitted grip. So, for my personal use I find it to be transitional and only use the thumb when needed to reach a certain point, then switch back to a monkey grip.

results may vary...

[burnsypoo]

anybody ever catch Moy Yat's tape on Locks?

[Ernie]

I think its all situational. I think that if someone comes at you with a knife you could get away and perhaps benefit in certain situations with out using the thumb.



oh my ,
if some one comes at you with a a knife and knows how to use it , it won't matter were you put your thumb you will be dead !
anyone telling you other wise is simply not telling the truth or has no idea about knife application

secondly if some one want s to stab you , you won't see it coming until it's coming out , our when you see your guts coming out

:rolleyes:

[Gangsterfist]

Yeah ernie I know. However, there are not many assassins after me that I know of.

I have had a knife pulled on me before, so it wouldn't be the first time. I would still be scared if it happened again. I just know if someone was that serious and wanted to hurt me, and it was in my power to end them I would with out a doubt or second thought.

I want to be stabbed and/or cut exactly ZERO times.

---If you reread my post I said, if it worked out that way I would do that. Its completely situational. Someone mentioned that using the thumb would be ideal when defending against a knife. I just simply stated its all situational.

However, I advocate the thought of, if someone does pull a knife on you then expect to get cut.

[Ernie]

gfist
just starts treading into the waters of non reality like gun defense ,knife defense is a non reality ,
as for assiasins bro ,

were i'm from almost every kid i knew growing up knew how to shank some one and were to shank some one

god forbid it be some one with some filipino training


things like were a finger is or were the toe points rather meaningless in the big picture

you spar you know even in controlled enviroments that stuff next to never comes up and if it did it would make or break the situation

it's when things are not tested that all these '' concepts '' become the filler for conversation

[IronFist]

I didn't take any offence about the condescending remark or whatever, don't worry.

I didn't say using a thumb was better, I just said it was "stronger" :)

[Gangsterfist]

Yeah I see a lot of people carry knives where I live. I carry one myself (i used to atleast, but it broke when I let an irresponsible friend borrow it). I will say that is not hard to stab someone but there is definately a difference in intent, between someone who really knows how to use a knife, and someone who just knows how to stab.

I realize that 99% of people will get cut when fighting someone with a knife. I realize I am in that 99%, that is why I don't fight unless I have to. Two weeks ago I saw a fight break out and there were brass knuckles brought out.

[anerlich]

Someone mentioned that using the thumb would be ideal when defending against a knife.

I NEVER said "ideal". There's nothing "ideal" in knife defense, other than never getting in the situation in the first place.

Unarmed knife defense is pretty out there, Ernie, but in these days of home invasions and robbery it's not something you may be able to avoid. If I find myself in a kitchen with a home invader, I'm going to try to get to the knife block first and do whatever I have to do. If he gets there first, I can't just say "Well that's it, knife defense is fantasy, I'm ****ed". I wouild be trying to improvise an impact weapon or shield if I couldn't get me and my family out of there, but if not, I'm still not going to ever give up.

My coach has been in five knife fights. One was against a Vietnam Vet who had just beaten several people at a pub unconscious. The guy had a knife and knew how to use it. My coach grabbed an iron stake from a garden and eventually managed to bash the guy's forearm and break it.

Five knife fights ... he also has seven stab wounds. Not something you want to make a habit of.

[Ernie]

rules in knife defense

1st there is no defense
2nd run
3rd if you can't run find a equalizer


i don't beleive in teaching people to die , i'm sure you have been on the end of skilled weapons people

you aint going to stop them

dis arms are a joke

the actual percentage of people in this world that can pull off a dis arm ,vs the possibilites of them getting in a knife fight were the person shows them the knife first and then gives them the time ,distance and so on to actually pull it off.

you do the math

even though i train in filipino weapons and i am faster then most , i would run

to chance that i might end up in a home invasion with a person with a blade [niot a gun ] and i will be in a position to defend myself and have the time and awareness to do it
again very slim

just recently my friend [ great ma and stuntman ] got stabbed a few times in a 5 second fight with 2 kids , he dropped both of them only to realized he stabbed in the chest and back , never saw the blades

so this is fresh in my mind , this happened near my home , could been me

[IronFist]

How did your coach manage to get in 5 knife fights? Like maybe 1 I could understand. Or maybe 2. But 5?

[anerlich]

Just found this funny thread on knifefighting:

http://ask.metafilter.com/mefi/7028

[anerlich]

How did your coach manage to get in 5 knife fights? Like maybe 1 I could understand. Or maybe 2. But 5?

He had "anger management issues" and actively sought violent confrontations in his late teens early twenties. He's mid forties now and readily admits the foolishness of his attitudes back then.

[kj]

Originally posted by anerlich
Just found this funny thread on knifefighting:

http://ask.metafilter.com/mefi/7028

Thanks for that ... it's one of the best "what if" threads I've seen in months! :D

Regards,
- kj

[Ernie]

Originally posted by anerlich
Just found this funny thread on knifefighting:

http://ask.metafilter.com/mefi/7028

awsome dude

that thread sound like most wing chun technique arguments i read ha ha a thing of beauty :D


if i gather all my chi and put in my knife chakra then i can root my stance and destroy the bears meridian

classic

[kj]

Crimson, thanks for your several clarifying comments on hand, arm, and shoulder anatomy re nerves and muscles. These are consistent with what I've empirically observed and experienced, and my limited research.

Regards,
- kj

[Ernie]

re reality and knife defense, i think ernie you need to step out of your somewhat black and white view of things.


to each there own , i think worst case , not the well maybe this person is not as skilled or just mad or not right in the head ,

if you treat each person the as worse case your are less likely to try something stupid

the first mistake is to not respect the blade , a child could kill you

in your cases the person showed you the weapon , that type of person is probably just as scared if not more then you . seeking some artificial power to hide behind , thus no real intent to use it

if there is intent , why show it , just get the job done

still have no respect for knife defense ,or gun defense , it's a formula for death

have i trained in it , of course of course , train with weapons all the time ,
which allows me to have a honest view of what a blade can do in motion during sparring [ your not going to grab or dis arm some one ]

now people play with static drills all the time , not real just dead patterns with pre determined out comes , this = false hope = corpse

but hey i guess anything is possible

[KingMonkey]

Ooh knives ! And I thought you were all still banging on about the thumb :-).

Since moving on from WC to JKD I have started to train weapons. I love it.
The knife sparring has done wonders for my mobility and consigned my flatfooted, non 50/50 WC footwork to the dustbin once and for all.
:D
Anyway I digress....
Just wanted to chime in to agree with the sage Ernest. Most anti-knife disarm training is unrealistic and placing the person trying it in harms way.
The premise is nearly always that the knife wielder is going for the body when anyone with any brains or experience will be going for the extremities.
Not much to add to his 1 2 3 but if you have to deal with it for gods sake dont move in, try and keep the range until the cops/too many witnesses show up or you can get back to the previously mentioned better options. ie run, find an equalizer.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie, KingMonkey:

Just want to put in my two-cents...While I agree that unarmed defenses against knife attacks are low percentage - the man has a weapon and you don't - nonetheless, these defenses are important to know and train, IMO.

What if you have no choice?

As far as a good knife man going for the limbs - William Cheung teaches keeping the hands and arms back and close to the body for this very reason...only to come out when he starts committing in some fashion.

And the best advice William has ever given when unarmed against a knife - assuming you have the chance...is to quickly take a shoe off and put your hand in it to fight the knife on the same side (ie.- his right handed knife attack vs. your left-handed shoe defense.

You can also look for opportune moments to kick at him with your opposite foot.

Just some thoughts.

[Gangsterfist]

Its a matter of experience. In my experience the guy who pulled a knife on me was nervous, but he held the knife up near my face, which I didn't like. Needless to say it was resolved with out any fighting, I just gave him what change I had in my pocket and he ran off. I think he got maybe 6 dollars from me or less. This is not an uncommon thing where I live. I have no real enemies at all. So, I doubt someone would come out of the shadows and "shank" me right in my back piercing my lung so I couldn't scream in pain. I have also had baseball bats, brass knuckles, pepper spray, make-shift weapons, sticks, and a giant rock (yeah some guy picked up a giant rock once, football sized) pulled on me and the people I was with.

There is some realistic level of weapon defense but its always high risk. I am sure there are people out there that I could not win a fight against even if I had a knife. I could probably cut them a few times, but ultimately lose the fight.

I don't delude myself with notions and thoughts that I can take an armed assailant with my limited martial arts training. I have only really been in one fight in the last 4 years, and I won with out using any martial arts training. I just boxed the guy, didn't use any of my previous martial arts training - because I didn't have to. I am still going to train against bladed weapons because I would rather have some sort of training than none.

[KingMonkey]

Yeah well fair enough guys sh*t happens I agree.

I guess what pinged my radar was a feeling that a lot of people both posting here and in the wider TMA world dont properly appreciate and respect the deadly threat and incredible difficulty a weapon like a knife presents even in untrained hands let alone someone with a bit of training.

Goal number 1 is dont get cut. And about the only way to do that reliably is to be consistently out of range.

I dont want to single anyone out but some of what I was reading seemed like a fairytale land recipe for disaster.

[KenWingJitsu]

Victor, removing your shoe is not a viable option when you're about to get stabbed Seriously. Have someone use a fake knife or a marker & have them "draw" before you can grab NAY weapon....shoe or otherwise. You'll see it fails every time.

Best option I have found for empty hand vs knife defense is found below.

http://www.centerlinegym.com/red%20zone%20II.htm

[KenWingJitsu]

Victor, removing your shoe is not a viable option when you're about to get stabbed Seriously. Have someone use a fake knife or a marker & have them "draw" before you can grab NAY weapon....shoe or otherwise. You'll see it fails every time.

Best option I have found for empty hand vs knife defense is found below.

http://www.centerlinegym.com/red%20zone%20II.htm

[KingMonkey]

Sorry I had to laugh at the picture on the website.
Why didnt he just shut the car door and drive off ? ;)

What in particular did you like about their approach KWJ ?

[Ernie]

hey i know his guy :D
http://www.centerlinegym.com/dhira_yesufu.htm

[Nick Forrer]

heres an excerpt from an interview with wsl- draw whatever conclusions you wish

Barry Lee: Sifu has a good friend who has trained in some Wing Chun, but normally doesn´t train in Wing Chun. He´s just a good friend who comes to talk to Sifu. This friend is an habitual gambler and has lost hundreds of thousands of dollars at a time, and in this instance he owed a lot of money in gambling debts. Sifu and this person were in a restaurant minding their own business in the evening and more than 13 men came in, all with weapons of some kind in order to get this man. They were going to finish him and Sifu was forced to defend him. Normally Sifu would let them come to him but, because they were after the other man, he stepped between him and them and stepped into them. In his whole life, maybe more than 30 years of fighting, it was the first mistake of stepping in rather than doing the Wing Chun practice of allowing the fight to come to him. But he had to save his friend; otherwise he would have isolated a number of them and taken them out that way. Sifu fought them and knocked four or more of them down. He went to punch one of them and his sleeve – because he was wearing the long Min Lap (Chinese jacket with rolled up sleeves) at the time – the Min Lap unravelled and the man grabbed the jacket and came up with a knife. As the knife came up Sifu had the reflex action to move and the knife just caught him between the eyes (There is a scar on Wong´s forehead, between his eyes). The man grabbed his arm and as he pulled Sifu in, Sifu finished him with one punch. The rest of them ran away as the police came.
But Sifu never advocates fighting a man with a weapon unless it is absolutely necessary. In a group fight, you angle yourself so that you are facing one man and the group has to come from behind him to get to you. So you isolate them by taking the man at an angle.

[russellsherry]

hi nick my friend david peterson , gave me a video of wong sifu doing, a semminar in perth ,a student asked this ? and sifu said,
he did not know if he could handle this type of attack every time , it just show"S the man"S greatness as a martial art sifu,as this was bruce lee sifu saying this.
i showed this tape i think to my arnis guro roland dantes, and
he was very impressed by what sifu , said and guro dantes is a 8 th dan in arnis and no slouch by any mean he said sifu wong was being very honest , in what he was teaching peace russellsherry

[kj]

Originally posted by Ernie
rules in knife defense

1st there is no defense
2nd run
3rd if you can't run find a equalizer



I respect your responses, and especially that you take this stuff seriously.

Still, I can't help pondering just a bit further. Why only knife defense? Would your recommendation significantly differ for other types of weapons? Why and in what way would responses 2 and 3 be different if the predator or attacker is [presumably] unarmed?

I understand clearly why it is important to treat a potential or imminent knife attack with utter seriousness. What I don't immediately see is why we should take other means of attack less seriously, or willingly engage if there are other viable options.

I do appreciate that all the dialog thus far is overly generalized, perhaps necessarily so, including yours and mine. Just hoping to explore the present line of reasoning a bit further.

Regards,
- kj

[Ernie]

kj

in a real situation , running would be top of the list , finding a equailzer
second
if i can help it i will never fight a fair fight

i am known for being as dirty as they come , to me it just means being honest :)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"And the best advice William has ever given when unarmed against a knife - ASSUMING YOU HAVE THE CHANCE...is to quickly take a shoe off...."

No...I wouldn't try this when he's already 5 feet away.

[kj]

Originally posted by Ernie
kj

in a real situation , running would be top of the list , finding a equailzer
second
if i can help it i will never fight a fair fight

i am known for being as dirty as they come , to me it just means being honest :)

Ha ha - that's what I keep hearing. :D

All joking aside, thanks for your response. There is nothing "fair" about a serious fight - with or without a knife or other weapons. And avoiding a fight isn't "dirty" - it's smart. ;)

Regards,
- kj

[Nick Forrer]

Victor-
I tried taking of my shoe to see how quickly I could do it

Wearing trainers that slip off easily, i had a shoe off my foot and in my hand in about 2 seconds. Whether that would be quick enough for real I dont know. However desperate times call for desperate measures- that said having only one shoe on would make it more difficult to run away. So its 6 of one and half a dozen of the other i guess.

Russell-
one of the things i respect about the late wsl is his lack of BS and his honesty about fighting- how you should expect to be injured in a fight and that while kung fu training will give you an advantage in a confrontation it wont make you invincible or even necessarily the victor.

[kj]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
... you should expect to be injured in a fight and that while kung fu training will give you an advantage in a confrontation it wont make you invincible or even necessarily the victor.

You can say that again.

Regards,
- kj

[reneritchie]

People often recommend running, but like any element of serious self defense, it needs to be addressed seriously.

How well can you run? Are you healthy/uninjured? Do you have good enough cardio to run as far and as fast as you might need? Are you a better/faster runner than the person with the knife/weapon? Are you wearing silly shoes that will inhibit running? If you take them off, is their hazardous material on the ground that will inhibit running?

Where are you going to run to? Is there a public place? A safe place? A more defensible place?

What else can you do while running? Scream 'fire'? Set off car alarms?

And what mistakes would you have to make to put you in the situation to begin with? Have you mind-setted and role-played the situation so you have the best chance possible to avoid it in the first place?

And to lighten the mood, my favorite Judo Gene LaBell quote eva:

"If you can't win--cheat. Heck, cheat anyway."

[Gangsterfist]

Ernie,

I almost 100% agree w/ you. Knives are no joking matter, and if one gets pulled on you your options are even more limited than before. Of course avoiding the situaion and getting away safely are the best things you can do.

....but what if you have no choice to fight....

Running away sounds like a great idea, but I have one problem with running away. When you run away your back is now turned towards your opponet. Also, you can only assume that you can run faster. For all you know that person holding a knife is an ex track star and can run very fast. That is a risk to take as well, and one that should be accounted for and taken seriously. If you back is turned to them, then you have absolutely no defense. If you are facing them at least you have all your weapons available for attack/defense (we see the human body of having 13 weapons in my lineage).

When I had a knife pulled on me I did a few things that allowed me to walk away unscathed. I remained calm. Made no sudden movements. Moved in slow controlled motions. Did not make direct eye contact. Gave the person all the money from my pocket, and then slowly backed away. Now, if that person had come at me it would have been a whole different story. Heck, I could have died that night, and then I would not be able to troll the wing chun message board - jk ;)

So, what if (yes I know, another what if) that guy had decided to attack me with the blade? If it would have happened I would have to fall back on all my training which may or may not have even made a difference. So IMHO it is very important to train how to use and defend with some common street weapons. We have had several classes of just knife fighting, and fighting against knives both armed and unarmed. It is also VERY IMPORTANT to take this type stuff seriously and cut out all the extra BS.

However, if we take this discussion further I suggest a new thread, so we stop hijacking this one about the lap sao.

[Ernie]

but what if you have no choice to fight....

Running away sounds like a great idea,

oh no the what if's

first running away can also imply controlling distance , staying out of range and unless your in a knife fight in a phone both and you have the time to see the knife , you should be able to control distance

what prevents a person from controlling distance

fear and ego

as for being able to out run people in general , i couldn't really consider some one a serious martial artist if they were so out of shape they couldn't pull of a decent sprint

hell i put in 3 miles a day 6 days a week on top of my regular training
and that to me is not good enough

so out running some one jumping fences and walls climbing stuff no problem here part of my ' weapons of survival '

see it's when you let yourself go you start having all these what if's and problems


ha ha to much yakity yack not enough running the track :D

now back to overwhelming importance of the thumb in a lop ha ha

[KenWingJitsu]

What in particular did you like about their approach KWJ ?
Simple. 1 "counter" for every type of knife attack...thrust, slash etc. And most impportantly, the way it's trained is "alive". Nothing fancy, just one guy tries to shannk you, and you try to pull off the technique which is a control of the 'stabbing' hand'. The guy 'really' tries to stab you, and you really try to control the 'stabbing hand. After an hour or so of this training, your ability to shut off the knife hand is greatly increased.

And the best advice William has ever given when unarmed against a knife - ASSUMING YOU HAVE THE CHANCE...is to quickly take a shoe off....No...I wouldn't try this when he's already 5 feet away."
Victor, that's the point I was trying to make. I watched a video on the net with the guy who made the Red Zone tape, and it was a convinience store robbery. The robber had a knife and stood about 3 feet from the clerk, knife at shoulder level. He just stepped forward ansd shanked him twice in the pec. It's on the web somewhere. The clerk didnt have much room or time to defend.

[Shadowboxer]

Ernie, in your Filipino training do you guys practice empty hand vs. knife or knife disarms/control? If so, why?
Just curious...Thanks.

[Ernie]

my filipino training
was odd in the sense they cut out all the b.s.

it was geared towards developing attributes and useing the weapons as a way to speed things up

i was shown the basic strokes and some counter for counter patterns

then right into sparring , everything is based of live contact

we isolated range , and targets so it's not overwhelming

like for example lead hand to lead hand defang the snake stuff [ kill the hand holding the waepon ] then we would insert rear hand and or leg and combine it all with high low high

stuff like that

the only dis arm that mattered is killing the hand with the weapon .

for close quarter besides wing chun we trained head but knee elbows , dumog/clinch then on the ground knee control positions and simple breaks and of course biting

empty hand vs. knife was only used to isolate sensitivity , never taken seriously as a way to address the situation

why

simple it's just plain stupid to try and dis arm and catch a blade

if you can control range why bother

sure we all know what '' can'' work and how to zone and only offer area's of the body that can recieve a cut [ back side of the arm vs the inner arm were your viens will get slashed etc..]

we trained all the distructions and pain infliction concepts

but in reality [ or the limited reality of a sparring match ] dis arms are non factor .

i could only see knife control or dis arms being used to develop coordination and feel but beyond that a waste of time

if you kill the hand there is no need to dis arm , so become good at killing the hand

i like to keep it simple

to be completely honest i never had the passion for the filipino system that i have for wing chun , so i allways approached it as a game , that improved my speed timing and feel
that's it

the idea that i will have a stick and the other guy will have a stick or knife in a street fight is very far fetched if i compare it to the possibility to both men having fist which is always the case
so i invest my limited time into the area which i percieve to give the greatest rewards

for example i would rater spend 3 hours sparring then working on dis arms , i would get way more out of the sparring session

ha ha whats next chi sau competetions or gun defense ?