What style of Baguazhang do you do?

[goldendragon]

I do Yin style bagua. These are the other styles of bagua I've heard of:

1)cheng style
2)wudang style
3)yin-yang style
4)complete techinque style
5)emei style
6)xingyi stlye baguazhang
7)swimming body style*
8)jiulong(nine dragon) style


*the full name of the style I train in is:
Yin Style swimming body baguazhang so I'm not sure that if swimming body refers to Yin style or another style all together.

-In your style do you train:
1)standing postures?
2)singular strikes?
3)changes if so what are names?

also I would be intrested in a layout of your styles like so;

YIN STYLE BAGUAZHANG is set up like this:

-systems Lion(interlocking), snake(moving with the flow of force), dragon(lifting and holding), bear(turning the back), phoenix(windmill), rooster(lying step), unicorn(reversing the body), and monkey(squatting). Each is its own martial system and all the other systems can be found inside each or the other.

-Systems each have 9 standing(non-moving) postures

-of the 9 postures 8 contain striking forces(the 9th is a combo of all 8 forces)

-of these 8 postures there are three truly natural ways to express the force as strikes (24 strikes per system+ some not so natural ways to using that force)

-each of the 8 postures also have 7 changes(7 move forms) in witch the strikes are used in a certain order. so the entire (animal\tri-gram)system has 56 changes.

changes are where the other systems come into each other. If you are doing the lion system and you start learning changes for oh, say the "sweeping strike"(the main lion attacking strike) the first change will be the "lion sweeping in the snakes house" or the "sweeping moving with the flow of force change".

THE ENTIRE STYLE OF YBS HAS:
-72 postures(8 are circle turning postures)
-96+ strikes
-448 changes
-72 leg tech.s(monkey contains most the leg strikes)

I don't know even an 8th of it. I'm not planing on learning it all either just a couple tri-grams thunder(dragon) and heaven(lion). My master said only to work on one at a time so I'm doing dragon for now.

[Buddy]

Yizong Gao style.
You are learning Xie Peiqi's style. Does your teacher insist that you call him master?
Buddy

[Brad]

My teacher's personal style is a combination of 3 lineages, I think. Cheng, Yin-Fu & something else? I have no idea... I haven't had any real formal training, just a couple of free Bagua lessons after my Taiji class :P.

[goldendragon]

No, He JinBao doesn't ask to be called master. I guess I'm a bit old school. Too many kung fu flicks, but I feel that as the Yin Style lineage holder he is the master\sifu. since he's the one I learned everything I know of bagua from I feel that to be the most fitting title. I also don't like to use sifu because I speek english, not chinease(spelling?). I wish I could, but I don't have the time for that too. Dr. Xie was He Jinbao's master before he passed away.

[dturner]

Is this style a internal.is it a good kung fu for defense.could you recomend one.

[goldendragon]

yes this is a very good art for defense. If you want to be more defensive than anything else you should try the Phoenix system in Yin style Bagua. The Phoenix's personality is more intrested in getting out of the way of any incomming blows first and formost, then counter attacking. check out www.traditionalstudies.org/ they list all the studie groups here in the states and have videos, a very detailed history, as well as discriptions of the animal personalitys for the systems that are available.

[omarthefish]

Song "style" :p

[jun_erh]

bagua reminds me of a waiter

[sean_stonehart]

Jiang Rong-qiao

[goldendragon]

Hay Omar old buddy I woundered how long it would take you to show up. You care to lay out your style as I have? or do you still believe in the close door crap?:D

-oh and note I posted this topic before we got into out chat in the footwork topic, and please no spam just the tipic at hand.;)

[omarthefish]

"old buddie" :D

I'm afraid some of that "old closed door crap" is still alive and well although that's not why I don't have much to post here. I'm only "in the door" on the Baji side. With bagua I stick to the basics. I've had experience with Gao, my original style and Yin through various acquaintences. My current teacher's lineage comes down fro Song Wei Yi who is a very controversial historical figure. He's controversial because there are a number of scholars around who think his lineage is made up. He alleggedly met with Dong Haichuan in Beijing in 1876. Most accounts have Dong in Beijing at about that time, give or take a year or two. At the time, Dong suppedly recognized him as a Shixiong. The problem is that this story conflicts with the official record of Dong Haichuan as the sole creator of baguazhang. It goes back to the monk who taught Dong, Bi Deng Xia and the other monk from the San Qing Monestary, Bi Yue Xia.

The only parts of the system I know of personally are those that are common to all lineages. The 8 mother palms. The 64 palm change set, single, double and piercing palm changes. I have seen the deer horn knoves and Song's favorite weapon the double ended spear. I am aware of many other aspects of the system indirectly though acquaintences. Zhang Xiang Wu who learned it from Song Weiyi along with the Wudang jian, seems to have been very close with Gong Bao Tian. When he felt it important to introduce his little "brother" Liu Yun Qiao to the internal arts, that's where he took him. A lot of these guys hung out together. General Zhang was in a special position as he was a high ranking government official so he was freed of many of the typical restrictions preventing people of that era from studying under multiple teachers. He was also the vice-president of the Nanjing Wushu Acadamy that was so famous for all the big contests in the 20's and 30's.

....it just occured to me there ARE actually a few other details I could add about the "style" (I hate that word in this context)

There is a complete overlap with the principles and theories of taijiquan and the essential sameness is emphasised. It includes use of a 5 element theory and 8 shenfa (bodymethods) which is analogous to the 5 steps and 8 shenfa making up the 13 postures of taijiquan. It's part of why and 8 step circle is so fundamental.

On a practical down to earth level:

-precision in stepping. Natural should not be confused with random or casual. You learn to step exactly where you wish to step. It also ingrains a 45 degree angle advance and retreat. More extreme angles are trained with the kou bu / bai bu combination. In various changes there are up to 360 degree spins with a single step. There's no need to walk bigger or smaller circles. When you add in the changes, every angle is there. Also, if you are circling with a partner/opponent and both of you are in the bagua stance hands touching at the wrist....that's just about as big as the circle is going to be. Your imaginary opponent isn't in the middle. He's just across from you.

On a more . . . abstract level:

The system is still structured around the Yi Jing. The cardinal directions have signifigance as do the 5 elements. So while, aftere a certain point you could do a completely free form practice, the core of your practice will always be that same circle.

I have been taught that standing postures is contradictory to Bagua. Bagua is all about training "walking gong fu". But the big over riding goal, the one that dwarfs all the other techniques and forms in comparison is the unification of jing-qi-shen in all movements and thus the heavy emphasis on muddy stepping extremely slow walking and pre-dawn training.

[goldendragon]

Well this is where the style differences lay as I see it (from what you said):

1)in yin style you are to train standing postures every day for the rest of your life along with your other training. He JinBao says that he likes to do them at the end of his routine, meaning he still trains them. First their were taoist (non-martial) postures that are done to link to chi to the li and so that you obtain health, these postures have been changed to maximise the martial force production.

2)Yin style on the Men Baozheg--Dr. Xie--He Jinbao line doesn't have "the 8 mother palms". I have see them in books but we don't have them. Jinbao mentioned that one of the three basic direction changes (not forms there only 2 moves) is the equivalincy(spelling?) of the single palm change but thats as close as yin style gets, his yin style is not the same as all yin styles he said. So no, the Yin style that I train doesn't have the 8 mother palms (though most other styles of bagua do).

3)also if you note nowhere have I (on the first post) mentioned the 64 palm sets (nor does the # 64 ever come up)so as far as I know it's not part of the style either.

4)He Jinbao told us that one day early in his training he saw some people in a park training "muddy stepping" and then he thought he would try it out. He was doing it in class and his teacher asked him what the hell he was doing. He said he saw some people doing it in the park. His teacher got angry with him and told him to go train with them then. So he stopped doing it. One of the other students told him that it's not part of their style so not to train it. So this is also not in Yin style bagua.

5)we also don't train walking very slow we walk slow but not too slow. He Jinbao told a cupple students repeatedly to speed up a bit that they were walking too slowly. there were students that had backgrounds in taiji, though they were moving much faster than any taiji player doing slow traing.

The core training methods in Yin style bagau are:
1)postures
2)strikes-there are several method to train strikes
3)turning-changes are contained in turning as "direction changes"

[Buddy]

Actually you should refer to your style as Xie style. You might want to research more orthodox Yin Fu styles. Mr. Xie formulated himself much of what he called Yin style. Not a critiscim, just a note.

[count]

I agree with Buddy. Athough history is just that. HIS-story. But you might include in your research, studying the songs. Than you can understand what is different from Xie style compared with Yin Baguazhang.


EDIT: Xie style as you describe it here.;)

[goldendragon]

I've not heard anything about Dr. Xie changing the training methods. I know that once an artist (martial) reaches a high level in bagua they can arrange the changes as they see fit. Because it's energy related, the strikes have a bit of flexability as to what strikes come when in the changes(forms). Where did you read that he changed the style? I don't think there are too many major differances from the Yin styles, from what I understand.

If there aren't any other "lineage" holders of the Yin style how could his be changed, and from what? As He jinbao teaches Yin fu was Dong Hai-Chuan longest trained disciple, the only who learned all of the art. Including martial, medical, chi gung, and medation. Man Baozheg in turn did the same by learning the entire system and gained the name of lineage holder. Dr. Xie did the same and so as I understand it he trained the same exact style that Dong Hai-Chuan did (pluss a little added hear and there). Infact only disciple to not learn the entire system is He Jinbao. Dr. Xie's successor was to be a differant student that passed away in '85. Since then he has trained He Jinbao in all the martial (maybe chi gung and or medation too I'm not sure) but He Jinbao didn't have the time before the Dr. died to learn the medical aspect of Yin style baguazhang. He is the named lineage holder. If this is true (as I presume) than the other Yin styles are infact the ones that come from students that didn't learn the entire system of bagua, and so they should be the ones to go by their teachers names insted of the title bagua. Being that theirs is not in the lineage line. An example would be that you never heard of any other style of bagua accupunture have you?

I don't know of any other lineage holders but then I also don't know of any other Yin styles lines either, but I live in the US so I imagine that they are in China and have yet to come to the west to teach. Unless you can say where you read or heard this I don't feel it has any validity. Point being that if it really was that different don't you think that the Dr. would have changed the name himself? Or that Jinbao would have changed it after the Dr.'s passing to honnor him? To me it makes no since to call a style by a name that it's not called by its successors IMHO.

[Walter Joyce]

Originally posted by count
I agree with Buddy. Athough history is just that. HIS-story. But you might include in your research, studying the songs. Than you can understand what is different from Xie style compared with Yin Baguazhang.


EDIT: Xie style as you describe it here.;)

But I thought ba gua was ba gua?

Is what He Jin Bao teaches ba gua or not?

Serious inquiry here, not trolling.

[count]

Dong trained more than 20 and he didn't train animals or the I-ching for that matter. Yin Fu had a few formidable students too. LOL.

I don't know Walter, from what I have heard about He, he was a powerful fighter with a background in Hsing-I before he met Xie Pie Qi. What I have seen him demonstrate in public and in video is bagua. I can't say what or who he teaches. Whether or not Xie was Men's torch barer is going to be debated for as long as lineage is an issue and people who were there are still alive. But Xie was not a to my knowledge, a student of Yin Fu.

Bagua is Bagua unless you miss the point. All we have to go by left from Dong are the songs. They are very clear about training and practice as well as theory and application. There are certain things that all methods have in common. If they are not common than how can it be called baguazhang let alone Yin Baguazhang?

[Buddy]

Actually there are a number of different lines of Yin Fu. Ma Shrjing being one. Zhu Baojin teaches another line in Beijing. Black Taoist in NY and Eric Tuttle in Canada each teach a different line. These are orthodox Yin Fu styles. I believe Mr. He learned a Shaolin style before going to Mr. Xie, not Xingyi. There is a great deal of speculation in Beijing as to whether Mr. Xie studied very expensively with Men Baojen or not. I worked with Mr. He and Dr. Xie here in the US (just at a couple of workshops) and I didn't think it looked like bagua. Just my opinion.

[RICK JAMES]

What's strange is the lack of "single palm change."
The last thing I would omit from BaGua practice is
the SPC.

SPC has nearly everything from body method to stepping, body over turn, drill rise fall, can be done with nei or chi gung flavor, moving root, strategy... etc.
I can see this mentally? Can I do it all with SPC? No, otherwise I'd teach and make no money!


Interesting thread though.

[Walter Joyce]

Count and Buddy,

Thanks for the input.

Buddy, did you mean expensively or extensively, or was that a freudian slip?


Walter

[Buddy]

I bow to your psychoanylasis, counselor. My ego the former, my id? Who knows? Oh wait that's Jung.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by goldendragon
No, He JinBao doesn't ask to be called master. I guess I'm a bit old school. Too many kung fu flicks, but I feel that as the Yin Style lineage holder he is the master\sifu.

i feel anyone who knows more than me or is teaching me is comparitively a master..and generally, whether they expect it or not, that's how I will address them...especially once you see the lvl of skiill in shaolin shifus...afterall...until we have as much skill/knowledge...they can whoop all our butts...so for me...master it is...;)

[RICK JAMES]

Few people in this life are "Master" of anything.
I do not call one "Master" lest he demands it.
The best MA's I've ever met have seemed a bit
uncomfortable with these titles.

Some I would imagine feel it is disrespectful to their own teacher's who were buried long before anyone dared call them "Master".

Maybe this is the reason, or at least the best one I can think of.


"Master" is the most abused word in the language.

[Walter Joyce]

Originally posted by RICK JAMES
Few people in this life are "Master" of anything.
"Master" is the most abused word in the language.

Unless of course we are speaking of the great fisher men, also known as master baiters, o Superfreakness.

:cool: :rolleyes:

[goldendragon]

1)We do have a few direction changes that one of which He Jinbao noted to be the equivalence of the single palm change.

2)As to Dr. Xie's training with Men Baozheg he said that he was schooled from when he was 13 or so on. As he lived next door to Men Baozheg and was so much younger he was trained as a son. Because of the age difference he was given open training in such a way that other students didn't at the time because Men felt him as no threat. Where other students that had backgrounds in other styles may try to challence him once they knew the style he used.
Why would you say that "There is a great deal of speculation in Beijing as to whether Mr. Xie studied very expensively with Men Baojen or not." Does someone else clame to be the lineage holder? Dr. Xie didn't train with Yin Fu because he was dead by then. If the Dr. didn't learn from Men than where did he get this knolage? He noted only Men as his teacher.

3)There are certian things in common with the styles of bagua(hence the name bagua), but the things that I noted as not being in Yin style baguazhang are not them. I know He Jinbao has a book written by Men Baozheg and he said he has read it and that only after 20 or so years of training did he understand it all. Now that he did understand it all would tell me that yes he does teach Bagua. Because his traing methods are different than some of the other styles doesn't mean that it won't produce equaly skilled fighters, it simply means that the training methods vary.:rolleyes: which is why I made this thread.

4)No one other than my self has writen out a list of extersizes or methods that they use in their training as well as their styles "blueprints." Why is this, are we only dissecting Yin style on the Yin fu--Men Baozheg--Dr. Xie Peiqi--He Jinbao lineage line? Someone mentioned the single palm change, I know of the 8 mother palms, and that being the single and dubble palm changes, I have also seen the other 6 of the 8 changes but don't know what there called or what not. I have a book by Dr. Yang Juing-Ming(spelling?) on Emie Style bagua so I know a bit about the layout of that style but yous guy don't do Emie anyway. I'm intrested in the training methods of these systems that I don't know much about yet*. I don't understand what muddy stepping trains either, in the Yin style He Jinbao teaches we are carful not to slide the feet so as to have a good firm root when stepping(to me muddy stepping seems counter productive).

*I'm intrested in Baguazhang in general; all styles and systems of all lineage lines.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by goldendragon Does someone else clame to be the lineage holder?

Carefull with those articles kiddo. Anyone who is designated a "chuanren" is a lineage holder.

I haven't got but the tiniest fraction of all there is to learn in Bajiquan but technically I am a lineage holder. All lineage means is that someone has been accepted as a formal disciple and not just a tuition paying student. It doesn't necessarily mean that a complete system has been learned and it CERTAINLY doesn't preclude other people from holding the same status as "lineage holders".

[Buddy]

Gold,
No problem, you only know what you've been told. But it's like when Jimmy Olsen exclaimed to Perry White, " Gee chief, you've taught me everything you know!". The editor of the Daily Planet then retorted, " No, I taught you everything YOU know!"
According to some reports from Beijing the Men family disavow Dr. Xie's claims of extensive study. Most Yin Fu practitioners in that city agree that Dr. Xie made up the eight animals. Someone had to, I guess. For my money the mechanics I learned differ from Dr. Xie's method. Briefly, Gao style consists of: Basic Trianing, Basic Hand methods, Whole Body Power training, Single Palm Change and its variations, Eight Mother Palms and Black Dragon Waves its Tail. This is the pre-heaven (Xiantian) method. Then there is the Sixty-four application forms and their linking sets, or post-heaven (Houtian) methods. There's a bunch of other stuff as well.
I would direct you to a pair of videos available on ebay by my teacher, Luo Dexiu and a series put out by my senior, Marcus Brinkman, also available on ebay. Further if you'd like a more extensive bit of conversation about the Chinese Internal Martial Arts in general, and Baguazhang in particular, visit the forum at Empty Flower.

[count]

I hope you don't take this as an insult. I truly appreciate your enthusiasm for baguazhang and your disire to learn. But you won't learn baguazhang by memorizing forms and sets, and if you don't go out and try it with other people who know baguazhang, you'll never know if the line of rhetoric you're being taught is truth or fantasy.

So I highly recommend you take Buddy's advice, and go out there and do some research. Here is a great place to start:
Baguazhang History (http://www.geocities.com/ottawakungfu/250Bagau002Z.htm)
Read about some of the other famous students of Yin Fu like Ma Gui, Cao Zhongsheng, Gong Bao Tian (My Grandmaster). How about Yin Fu's own son Yin Yuzhang? If you consider Yin Fu a separate style, wouldn't his own son's line hold the lineage holder?

That should get you started on history. Than read some of the classics. If you don't read Chinese, I can recommend Liang Zhen Pu, Eight Diagram Palm which is a translation of Li Ziming's transmission of the songs. If the trigrams interest you, read the I-ching.

But all that his-tory, theory, and philosophy won't do a thing to make your baguazhang anything more than useless. Train your ass off. I suggest focus on the basics. An hour of circle walking a day. Low and slow. Dynamic basics of rising, falling, turning, overturning, drilling, thrusting, wrapping, piercing...basics, basics, basics...

But even this won't teach you to use your baguazhang. I recommend you make a trip to New York for the "All Baguazhang" annual tournament and meet Ben Hill of the Baguazhang Reasearch Institute and Novell Bell, The Blacktaoist (http://blacktaoist.com) Challange yourself. Keep an open mind. Forget about forms or styles and train the basics. Forget about lineage. Make yourself baguazhang.

Good post Buddy, you beat me up this morning. LOL

[count]

Oh Ya, I forgot to mention you can purchase the entire series of the Pakua Journal on CD from Plum Flower Press (http://plumflower.com) which is full of his-tory, training methods and anything you want to know about the different methods of baguazhang.

[Buddy]

Ha ha Jeff,
I live on the right coast! And to echo the count...live it or live with it!
Buddy
Also to say, as I've said elsewhere, Yin Fu looks different than Cheng Tinghua. They emphasize different things. But by god from what I've seen of orthodox Yin Fu it's still bagua as I know it.

[count]

Sure, That's because Yin Fu was thin and Cheng Ting Hua was a robust and heavy set fellow. Of course they look different. :D

[goldendragon]

Omarthe fish--as I understand it there are indoor disciples and there are lineage holders both are not the same. A lineage holder did learn the hold system and the indoor disciple is just an openly trainind person who is going to be trained without the teacher holding back info. I'm not saying that I'm right or your wrong this is just as I understand it pertaining to my training.

Buddy--"Most Yin Fu practitioners in that city agree that Dr. Xie made up the eight animals. Someone had to, I guess."-I have see pictures of the same postures (Signature animals)in a Kung Fu magazine article about Empiror's (spelling?) longfist a style that combines bagua, taiji, and Xingji that dates back before bagua's creator Dong. So if you think that the Dr. invented the postures or energys (animals) for that matter your incorrect they have been noted elsewhere. He may have come up with the names of animals for the energys(trigrams) but he is only putting new names on old training methods. Personaly I find your comments to be generally an attempt at disscrediting Dr. Xie and insulting to me as a trainer of his Yin style bagua. In fact the only part of any of your comments that even pertained to what I'm asking about was;
"Briefly, Gao style consists of: Basic Trianing, Basic Hand methods, Whole Body Power training, Single Palm Change and its variations, Eight Mother Palms and Black Dragon Waves its Tail. This is the pre-heaven (Xiantian) method. Then there is the Sixty-four application forms and their linking sets, or post-heaven (Houtian) methods. There's a bunch of other stuff as well."--that's good this is what I was looking for, and to think in 23 replys I only got a paragraph of what I'm asking about. Lots of SPAM, so knock it off! All of you.

Count--"I highly recommend you take Buddy's advice, and go out there and do some research."--I'm sorry but I do find this rather insulting I have 5 books on other styles of bagua and have read them all. Not only that, I have looked all over this interweb thing and have found more info on oh say weaving baskets than bagua. I have read alot of the songs and most of them concure with what He Jinbao has tought me. But they do not address my personal flaws as He Jinbao does and the song can't look at your posture and say no, no, do this not that, or think about this not that. Songs to me are like trying to learn kung fu from a book. you really can't unless you have already reached a very high level. They only remind me of things that He Jinbao already said for the most part.

[Buddy]

"I have see pictures of the same postures (Signature animals)in a Kung Fu magazine article about Empiror's (spelling?) longfist a style that combines bagua, taiji, and Xingji that dates back before bagua's creator Dong. "

Drag,
While I knew you take offense, I assure you I meant none. But you can't expect me take your finding a magazine article seriously can you? I worked with your grandteacher, did you? Please look at your statement. How could something exist before its founder?
Long Fist has completely different body mechanics than does the IMA.

"So if you think that the Dr. invented the postures or energys (animals) for that matter your incorrect they have been noted elsewhere."

Well you just said you think they come from Long Fist. Look dude I'm just telling what everyone in Beijing thinks. And here's another shocker for you. Dr. Xie admitted to some that he made up the animals.

"Personaly I find your comments to be generally an attempt at disscrediting Dr. Xie and insulting to me as a trainer of his Yin style bagua."

Why do you think I would want to do that? My comments have been reasoned and well tempered and concurred with by others. Just how long have you been doing this style that you are a 'trainer'? I worked with Dr. Xie on his first visit to the US and it was not very long ago.


"I'm sorry but I do find this rather insulting I have 5 books on other styles of bagua and have read them all."

All the way through? Seriously son. I have practicing baguazhang for 18 years. You've read a couple books? Please don't preach to your betters.

[RICK JAMES]

And that's what five fingers said to the face, right there....

[shawnsegler]

G-Dragon.

As a yin style practitioner myself, I've got to say take a lude, dude.

As to your Dr.Xie worship. There is no #1 under heaven.

Now relax and play well with others who enjoy bagua.

Best wishes,

S

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by goldendragon
Omarthe fish--as I understand it there are indoor disciples and there are lineage holders both are not the same. A lineage holder did learn the hold system and the indoor disciple is just an openly trainind person who is going to be trained without the teacher holding back info. I'm not saying that I'm right or your wrong this is just as I understand it pertaining to my training.


Well we are all free to define out own terms. If you like, I can try to keep in mind what you mean by that distinction. I suppose an "inner door student" and a "lineage holder" are not exactly the same as even in Chinese they are different terms but the difference may be fairly subtle. Last week I mentioned in conversation something referring to the fact that in the past I was instructed explicitly NOT to tell anyone who I was learning from. He said, "Oh....no, no, no. That was before. Now you absolutely can tell people your are (his name)'s "chuan ren" (lineage holder) But I have only learned maybe 1/4 th of the system at best.

AFAIK, you are a lineage holder whenever your teacher says you are.

Still leaving his name off because I feel weird about posting it on a BBS like this.

[kungfu cowboy]

Engleburt Humperdink.

[Brad]

Buddy--"Most Yin Fu practitioners in that city agree that Dr. Xie made up the eight animals. Someone had to, I guess."-I have see pictures of the same postures (Signature animals)in a Kung Fu magazine article about Empiror's (spelling?) longfist a style that combines bagua, taiji, and Xingji that dates back before bagua's creator Dong.
If it's the same article I'm thinking of, it's my understanding that they basically took some xingyi, bagua, & taiji, and call it emporer's longfist because they never learned the real thing. It's kind of a wierd story.

[goldendragon]

BRAD-you could be right about the Emporer's longfist being a load of crap, but then you could also be wrong:confused:.I found the postures they had for bagua in the diagram to be correct, though the energy of the main strikes didn't coraspawn (spelling?).

BUDDY-Like I said before I think he may have relabaled the systems with animal names but I think the systems existed before that I'll ask He Jinbao when he comes up (next month I think).
"Seriously son. I have practicing baguazhang for 18 years. You've read a couple books? Please don't preach to your betters."--You don't know your better infact I don't know you've trained for more than a month so quit with your ego "buddy". There is this saying "Don't tell me who your teacher is because if I beat you I'm better and I won't tell you how long I've trained for because if you beat me your better."(I realize you'll all say "you told us who your teacher is!" well I know that and only mentioned his name so you know where what I know came from) It really doesn't matter how long you've trained. We're not going to fight and the only thing you get from training is skill at fighting. It will not increace your intellagence or get rid of that nasty ego either.
As for my books well I've read them several times as well as every article I've found on bagua for the past 5 years. if thats not a way to learn other than training than why would you point me to sights with words on them?:confused:

[dwid]

I know I'm late to the party, but...

My style is Guang Hua Mountain Bagua.

From what I was taught by my instructor (Dr. Fred Ming-an Wu), it is mainly a combination of Gao and Han Mu Sha's bagua, with variations on some techniques added by some of their highly skilled students.

[shawnsegler]

intellagence..lol

s

[count]

Classic case of watching the finger and missing the moon. Take the finger out of your eye, Goldendragon. I told you I wasn't meaning to be insulting you. There are contradictions even in your version of the Xie line. People were just trying to point you in the right direction and suggesting you keep an open mind. Everywhere you go, teachers have different ideas of how to cover the same material. There are dozens of good Yin bagua teachers in this country. If you can get past the idea that there is only one way and see the importance of basics, you can begin to make bagua yourself.

[Buddy]

Sigh. You can lead a brick to water but you can't make it float...

"Like I said before I think he may have relabaled the systems with animal names but I think the systems existed before that I'll ask He Jinbao when he comes up (next month I think)."

I know you said it before but you should talk to folks in Beijing. I have and they've talked to the Men family. Look, Dr. Xie was a nice old guy so I really don't want to besmearch his memory but I'm just telling you the truth. If you still like it, fine by me.

"You don't know your better infact I don't know you've trained for more than a month so quit with your ego "buddy"."

Buddy is my name son. You are a beginner, I'm better than you. No brag, just fact. Here's my website www.lungmen.org.
In fact there's a great deal you don't know. But ask the board, there's a number of people who know me here.

"There is this saying "Don't tell me who your teacher is because if I beat you I'm better and I won't tell you how long I've trained for because if you beat me your better."

Is that from a fortune cookie?

"It really doesn't matter how long you've trained.

Of course it does.

"We're not going to fight and the only thing you get from training is skill at fighting."

But you don't know anything about me, son. Training is also a great way to meet chicks.

"It will not increace your intellagence or get rid of that nasty ego either."

I'm sorry I've burst your hero-worship bubble. I tell you the truth and you slag me. I don't expect you to believe me but try to find out for yourself. Go to Empty Flower, go to Jarek's site, Dragonslist, ask around. But you won't because you're afraid I might be right.

"As for my books well I've read them several times as well as every article I've found on bagua for the past 5 years. if thats not a way to learn other than training than why would you point me to sights with words on them?"

That's not a way to learn, I thought that was clear. I've read all those books as well. I've told you where to go. Go to other boards and ask questions. Like I said if you like what you do, great. It's just not orthodox Yin Fu style. Don't blame me.

[Buddy]

dwid,
Yizong is from Zhang Zhunfeng who was great friends with and was greatly influenced by Wu Menngxia who, as you probably know studied with both Han and Gao. Do you guys do Tian Gan (heavenly stems)?
Buddy

[Brad]

BRAD-you could be right about the Emporer's longfist being a load of crap, but then you could also be wrong.I found the postures they had for bagua in the diagram to be correct, though the energy of the main strikes didn't coraspawn (spelling?).
I'm not saying Emporer's Longfist is a load of crap, just that what they practice is not emporer's longfist. They DID learn Bagua, Xingyi, and Taiji + some Chin Woo stuff. Emporer's longfist is a real system, but they don't practice it... that's what I'm saying. I have some info about them, but Royal Dragon would be the one to talk to about specifics. Though I did double check some things he told me.

[htowndragon]

gong bao tian style, to gong bao zhai to eugene chou to me.

[dwid]

Yizong is from Zhang Zhunfeng who was great friends with and was greatly influenced by Wu Menngxia who, as you probably know studied with both Han and Gao. Do you guys do Tian Gan (heavenly stems)?

Well, Dr. Wu died over three years ago now, and I wasn't very far in my training when he did. Can you describe the Tian Gan? What do they entail? We may have practiced them, but used a different name or something.

I mostly practice the pre-heaven circles and the guang hua circles/palm changes, as that is the material I had the best handle on. I learned a lot of the 64 fighting techniques, which were sort of linear forms, as well as some drills and two man sets.

However, I don't really trust the linear forms (just a personal preference - nothing against them per se) and I practice alone, so the two man sets are useless to me.

Some day I hope to find another person to train under who comes close to what I had in Dr. Wu.

[goldendragon]

ha, ha, you so funny! Ya I suck at spelling, what you want a cookie? I'm only saying I'm intrested in what you guys train as far as methods. Like for example I do 45 min of turning every day. I get a lot of crap about what I do but then again most of you didn't say even that which leads me to believe that you don't train every day or you only do circle turning. not that just turning is bad it's the core, but there is other stuff to train like apply your moves and so on.

I didn't at any point ask "Is Dr. Xie's style orthodox?" nor do I care what you think about it, but Buddy you are using an ego to say your better, I mean even with MA if I'm faster and stronger that you I'll beat you. You can't put tech over all other aspects we still fight in three dimentional space am I right? If you really have trained for 18 or however many years EVERY day than I have no doubt your better. However to rub it in and call someone son (like a want-to-be gangster) is on the egosectric side in my book. And regardles what you think I'll check your site, oh I have. wow that was fast theres only a page or two on bagua there not much that isn't in my books, and oh wow your name thats great. well it means crap. because there are Mc dojos dime a dozzen in this country hell I could open one if I wanted to I know how to run stores and open them. After training for 5 years I'd say I'm no longer a newbie your an ass to think so. If you can't learn from reading then what, do you need someone to read to you? someone said reading the songs (written by Dong) would help your understanding so your saying he's wrong. also I went to this place called school and they made you learn by reading so I'd have to say you must have missed out on that if you think reading doesn't help you understand things. Now don't get confused here I'm not saying that I'm gaining martial skill from reading a book thats absurd.

[Buddy]

Drag,

" didn't at any point ask "Is Dr. Xie's style orthodox?" nor do I care what you think about it, but Buddy you are using an ego to say your better, I mean even with MA if I'm faster and stronger that you I'll beat you. "

No, but you took great issue when I brought it up. As I said if you like it, fine. Look, I practiced quite hard for a long time and you haven't. Ergo, I'm better.


"However to rub it in and call someone son (like a want-to-be gangster) is on the egosectric side in my book."


I call you son because you are being childish. Also I'm certain I'm quite a bit older than you.

"wow that was fast theres only a page or two on bagua there not much that isn't in my books, and oh wow your name thats great. well it means crap. because there are Mc dojos dime a dozzen in this country hell I could open one if I wanted to I know how to run stores and open them."

Did you think I was going to put all my knowlege on a website? I don't have a school, only a small class of dedicated students. The difference if someone who knew about IMA came to my class they would recognize that I have some stuff. They would see that you have been at it for five years.

"After training for 5 years I'd say I'm no longer a newbie your an ass to think so."

Well, I'd say five years you should be at the level of being ready to understand what is going on. IOW, a noob.

"If you can't learn from reading then what, do you need someone to read to you? someone said reading the songs (written by Dong) would help your understanding so your saying he's wrong."

Yes I'm saying he's wrong. Look all those classical writings are preaching to the choir. If you don't already know all that poetry won't help a bit. If you already know...

"also I went to this place called school and they made you learn by reading so I'd have to say you must have missed out on that if you think reading doesn't help you understand things"


Do you think you could learn how to fly an airplane simply by reading? Personally I love to read and its helped me with many things, but I'm glad I went into the water when I wanted to learn to swim.

BTW did you ask anyone else about your style or is blind acceptance more preferable?

[Buddy]

dwid,
I'll try but my teacher shows a few of them on his first vid. The first tiangan is called "ban" or to move. Stand in a really deep wide horse stance. Put one hand behind your back and stretch the other out to the side palm up. Turn to one side in a deep bow stance, AT THE SAME TIME swinging the arm over the head as if pushing something down so that the arm is now facing the same direction as your bow stance palm down. Turn into the opposite bow, remaining very low, sort of dragging the back of the hand along the floor. End up in the other side bow stance by tucking the hips under to raise the torso with the hand doing a kind of plucking (think single whip} in front of the body level to the ground. I emphasize at the same time because this is an exercise to develop whole body movement.
How's that?
Buddy

[Buddy]

BTW my kung fu brother has an excellent site dedicated to Yizong Gaoshi baguazhang at www.yizongbagua.com.

[BAI HE]

"because there are Mc dojos dime a dozzen in this country hell I could open one if I wanted to I know how to run stores and open them. After training for 5 years I'd say I'm no longer a newbie your an ass to think so. "

Looks like your planning on making some Whoppers. If your math is as bad as your reading comprehension skills? You should abstain from opening "stores".

Buddy, please give up on GD. Next thing you know you'll have to fly to his house and make balloon animals in funny poses to explain how his parents made him.

GD-
Stop insulting Buddy, because if you ever did it to his face? It would be my sorry ass that would have to carry tou down four flights of stairs and put you in your car and I'm pretty sure you are the fat, pimply sort of book fu teacher.

Buddy is what he is and I think he was polite to you and gave you solid information. While I understand you got a little sand in yer clam over it, try and be polite.

Best,
Pete

[goldendragon]

BUDDY--I understand that your being quite understanding and what not but I just don’t take to people talking down to me. That’s what it appeared that you were doing. I never said that I could fly a plane by reading a book but if you read the book you will understand how to go about flying the plane better than if you skipped the book altogether that’s all. Oh and my spelling is bad because I have ADHA, and I'm disslexick(again spelling). I never got good at it, nor do I see any point to looking it up. I can get the spelling close enough to the point that you can all understand what word I mean. As far as the 5 years training, if it were collage I’d have graduated by now(unless I was going to be a Dr.). At my age having only been out of school 5 years that’s about all the years I’ve had so far. I don’t think many others my age have much more hours racked up either. If they do good for them. When I was in school I spent every free min snowboarding and after I was done school I had more free time and started bagua.

BAI HE aka Pete--I'm not saying I'm going to open a dojo and I'm not reading books to learn martial content. I go to class for that. I just mean that to have a website for a school and list it as a place to look for info on an art is not helpful. also this is my topic so if you don't like it than don't read it. I am simply stating that this thread was not pertaining to the questions for which it was made. You really can’t tell someone to stop insulting another person and then say things like: “because if you ever did it to his face? It would be my sorry ass that would have to carry you down four flights of stairs and put you in your car and I'm pretty sure you are the fat, pimply sort of book fu teacher.” And expect it too work? Also your first question mark is poor grammer(ya, ya, I know spelling). So you really have no place dissing my spelling. And another thing not that it matters but I’ve got no pimples, I’m 23 for god sake I haven’t had pimples since I was 17 or so. I’m 6’ and 210lbs so if I do bagua 1.5 to 2 hrs EVERY day, you do the math. Am I fat? What ever gave you the idea I’m a teacher? I think it is you that needs to work on your reading comprehension skills.

COUNT—your sites were helpful, thanks.

[BAI HE]

See,
now you've calmed down a bit.

What is the primary focus of your practice right now?

Best,
Pete

[dropway]

hmmmm this tread was very interesting at the begining,
could you get back to the main topic and explain your basics in bagua, that's very interesting,
as for me, i'm not a bagua adept, so i have nothing to say

[Buddy]

drop,
As you see above I described one of the basic whole body power exercises from Gao style. Did it make sense to you?
Buddy

[Buddy]

Drag,

"BUDDY--I understand that your being quite understanding and what not but I just don’t take to people talking down to me. "

Sorry but you took issue with my, what I thought was delicate handling of a controversial subject and were rude.

"That’s what it appeared that you were doing. I never said that I could fly a plane by reading a book but if you read the book you will understand how to go about flying the plane better than if you skipped the book altogether that’s all."

OK fair enough but learning IMA is a whole 'nother thing. I'm not against reading books but frankly none of the ones out in English would help at all learning Baguazhang. Parks would give you some good evercises but you wouldn't know if you were doing them properly w/o a live teacher. And in that regard one might hurt ones self. Yang's has nice history (not as good as the Pa Kua Journal) but mostly shows waigong. Would you care to list and comment upon the ones you have read? That might put us on even ground. I've read them all.

" Oh and my spelling is bad because I have ADHA, and I'm disslexick(again spelling). I never got good at it, nor do I see any point to looking it up. I can get the spelling close enough to the point that you can all understand what word I mean."

I never commented on your spelling, that was others.

"As far as the 5 years training, if it were collage I’d have graduated by now(unless I was going to be a Dr.). At my age having only been out of school 5 years that’s about all the years I’ve had so far. I don’t think many others my age have much more hours racked up either. If they do good for them. When I was in school I spent every free min snowboarding and after I was done school I had more free time and started bagua."

Hmmm. Having trained those first five years many years ago I can assure you that you have a very arduous and pleasant time ahead of you. Learning bagua is not addition it's geometric. It's like peeling an onion. There is always a higher level and thats a great thing. When I was first starting to "get it" I would gain an understanding and then practice like hell my newly found skill until I became proficient. Then I would get a new and more advanced understanding. And then where before, I thought I was pretty good, all of a sudden I sucked at the new thing. It was depressing. Then I realized, yes I suck. But I suck AT A HIGHER LEVEL. It is still the case. BTW did you try the exercise I described? Have you thought about buying my teachers tape(s) to see what my style looks like? They're not terrilby expensive and show IMO some of the best Cheng Tinghua bagua on the planet.
Buddy

[8gua]

so this is interesting....irrelevant but interesting...i am not sure that orthodox has any relevance to anything...after all what does the Bagua look like? If Xie Peqi made up the system that he passed on it is only a testament to his geinius and capacity for organized thought. the breadth of YSB is astounding and also from what I have seen truly reflective of the Bagua. which as far as I am concerned is simply an attempt at classifying phenomenea within a logical and qualifyable framework. In this instance an attempt at marking the changes in relationship and possibility in the context of interrelational movement with the intention of gaining advantage over another.
I have spent time around the Dr. both in Beijing and the states. I never saw anything other than respect and perhaps fear from others in relation to the Dr. in Beijing. Personally I have no doubts to the veracity of his claims with Men Bao Jun, regardless he has left behind an art of tremendous depth and quality. One only needs to spend a small amount of time with He Jin Bao to feel the truth of this. Who the people are in Beijing that no better are beyond me and who cares. The biggest trap in martial art is squandering your own potential and ability in speculation about anothers, regardless of what the truth is it means nothing for you. We all have to "drink from the dregs of the elders and extract clear liquid" - ralston.

[Thundermudd]

"Learning bagua is not addition it's geometric. It's like peeling an onion. There is always a higher level and thats a great thing. When I was first starting to "get it" I would gain an understanding and then practice like hell my newly found skill until I became proficient. Then I would get a new and more advanced understanding. And then where before, I thought I was pretty good, all of a sudden I sucked at the new thing. It was depressing. Then I realized, yes I suck. But I suck AT A HIGHER LEVEL. It is still the case."


Nicely said Buddy.
I couldn't agree more. I have only been going at it for about 3 years now and I can attest to the depression. :D I start grasping a concept or finally getting a part of my body to cooperate and I am handed something new. ARRGGHHHHH!!!!
I know that I definately suck, but I love it!! I suppose its what keeps me coming back for more.

[Buddy]

Thanks Thunder,
It's good to know I'm not writing just to amuse myself. Keep plugging and write here with your advances and we can talk about them.
Cheers,
Buddy

[blooming lotus]

don't know if I've mentioned it before but currently chen tai ji and a little bagua zhang omei...conditioning and form

[dropway]

"drop,
As you see above I described one of the basic whole body power exercises from Gao style. Did it make sense to you?
"

ah, yes thanks buddy

[maoshan]

Peace

Sorry I couldn’t reply earlier but I didn’t have the time before, now it’s all good.

GD
I applaud your enthusiasm, we need that in the internal these days, but you need to acknowledge your seniors in terms of knowledge and experience above yours.
I’m going to give you what you asked for after I respond to certain points you’ve made.

(*the full name of the style I train in is:
Yin Style swimming body baguazhang so I'm not sure that if swimming body refers to Yin style or another style all together.)

In all my years of learning Ba-Gua (27yrs), I’ve never heard of a “Swimming Body” aspect of the Yin style. In particular, Shi Pei Qi’s method is more of a Yang (hard) approach to the style than most. Swimming pertains to a continuous flow of movements or techniques. Shi’s method is more direct. In fact most of the Yin methods are practiced this way. The most fluent Yin I’ve encountered is Lao Shi Xu Shi Xi’s method, which I believe is based on the attribute of the snake. My Brother, BlackTaoist is his US rep and he can elaborate on this a lot more than I.

(3)also if you note nowhere have I (on the first post) mentioned the 64 palm sets (nor does the # 64 ever come up)so as far as I know it's not part of the style either.)

All Styles of Ba-Gua do the Single Palm Change. It’s the hallmark of the style. Walking the circle is the most basic aspect of the training. Walking the circle is how the SPC is trained. If you don’t do this, it’s not Ba-Gua but rather a hybrid.
As for this statement above, your wrong, each animal has 64 postures, which are practiced on all three basins, which add up to 168 movements. This structure is the same as most Ba-Gua styles.
Also, your style has a 64 Qinna 2 man set

()He Jinbao told us that one day early in his training he saw some people in a park training "muddy stepping" and then he thought he would try it out.)

The equivalent to mud stepping is the Snake step, which Yin Fu taught. The Lion step is what Shi emphasizes. This step is for combat, the others, for developing moving root, which is another hallmark of Ba-Gua. If you don’t walk the circle, you cannot develop moving root. Again this is not Ba-Gua, but a hybrid and in this instance, a poor one.
Ba-Gua is known to hit with full power while in motion, if you don’t train it, how can you do it.

(If there aren't any other "lineage" holders of the Yin style how could his be changed, and from what? As He jinbao teaches Yin fu was Dong Hai-Chuan longest trained disciple, the only who learned all of the art. Including martial, medical, chi gung, and medation.)

I have an issue with this whole response but just took a piece so that you’ll know what I referring to.
To begin, you’re so far in the dark a flashlight wouldn’t help you.
As for there not being any Yin style Lineage holders in the US, again your wrong.
Chen Xiao Ping Of the Cao style in NY and Xin Yun of PA is from Ma Gui, Yin Fu’s top student.
Men Bao Zhen was the third best in Yin’s Ba-Gua. Ma Gui and Li Yong Qing didn’t learn anything other than the fighting and they were better than Men In that aspect.
What made Men the lineage holder was that he learned all the aspects of the system, which you mention in your post.
Cao Zhong Sheng was a student of both Yin Fu and Ma Gui for 10yrs. Cao’s system has no animal styles, it teaches the single palm change and the stress is on walking not holding postures.

(He is the named lineage holder. If this is true (as I presume) than the other Yin styles are infact the ones that come from students that didn't learn the entire system of bagua, and so they should be the ones to go by their teachers names insted of the title bagua. Being that theirs is not in the lineage line. An example would be that you never heard of any other style of bagua accupunture have you?)

Your original post stated that you wanted to know the training methods of other styles of Ba-Gua, not the meditational, medical, etc…
This lead to the discussion of the methods in particular and who is teaching them and whose method is more authentic. As I said earlier, Ma Gui was more knowledgeable then Men Bao Zhen in the Combat aspects, which makes sense being that he, learned from Yin and Dong Hai Chuan. You said that you’ve read 5 books on the topic. Just what are you focusing on in your reading? You need to do a lot more research.
Look, I learned from both Shi Pei Qi and He Jin Bao and I’ve got mad respect for them.
He Jin Bao is a monster; I was part of the group that hosted them in PA in 1997, but their skills has nothing to do with the truth. Kung Fu is great business for China when it comes to westerners. All they have to do is be Chinese and mention lineage and another sucker bits the dust. It’s a money scam. Through Andrew Shi established himself in America. It really wasn’t necessary given their skill, but in China, the land of Kung Fu, if you don’t know any better, a WuShu king can make you think they are the ends all be all. So you have to come up with a gimmick. The lineage (which is common) and the Animals (which was unique) was Shi’s. But the lie has to be maintained now in order to not lose credibility and Face. Yin and Men’s family disavow Shi. Do you understand Chinese culture? This means a lot. Now if you want to believe what you’ve been taught, that’s on you, but don’t think that you can come on this board with guys that have a hell of a lot more time in this and expect them to just go alone with it. A lot of us at times disagree and practically wage minor wars up here, but it’s based on common knowledge to some degree, but you know little to nothing even about your own style, but I’m going to finish hitting you on your points.

to be continued

[maoshan]

Part II

(I don't know of any other lineage holders but then I also don't know of any other Yin styles lines either, but I live in the US so I imagine that they are in China and have yet to come to the west to teach. Unless you can say where you read or heard this I don't feel it has any validity.)

LOL, I answered this above.

(Why would you say that "There is a great deal of speculation in Beijing as to whether Mr. Xie studied very expensively with Men Baojen or not." Does someone else clame to be the lineage holder? Dr. Xie didn't train with Yin Fu because he was dead by then. If the Dr. didn't learn from Men than where did he get this knolage? He noted only Men as his teacher)

Where did he get his knowledge?
What do you know about it? You was told this, where is your proof of truth?
It’s not to say that what Shi and He are teaching is fake but rather is what they are teaching in fact the end all be all of it. Just because no one claimed it doesn’t mean that it’s not known or what Shi now calls it is not known by another name.
Many top masters don’t even teach. Some lived and died and never had a student. Most of the greatest masters are totally unknown. There is a very high master of the Gong Bao Tian lineage living in NY’s Chinatown who teaches no one except My brother BT, and that’s only because of his dedication to training and keeping the art real and not some dancing philosopher. Chen Xiao Ping Only started teaching because he saw how hard me and BT trained and even then was vary cautious with what he taught until he was very comfortable in knowing that it wouldn’t be a waste of his time.

(Omarthe fish--as I understand it there are indoor disciples and there are lineage holders both are not the same. A lineage holder did learn the hold system and the indoor disciple is just an openly trainind person who is going to be trained without the teacher holding back info. I'm not saying that I'm right or your wrong this is just as I understand it pertaining to my training.)

There have been many instances where the indoor student was more knowledgeable than the lineage holder. I gave you one with the Yin Fu Lineage, another is the Yang family Tai Chi. Yang Cheng Fu didn’t begin to train until after his father died and that only happened because the senior student’s being loyal to the master locked Yang Cheng Fu up and made him train. Because of this, even though he eventually earned the name “invincible Cheng”, he never reached his full potential because his heart wasn’t in it in the beginning and the amount of wasted time before it set in. Again, you know nothing.

(I have read alot of the songs and most of them concure with what He Jinbao has tought me.)

Really? A lot of what your saying doesn’t concur with the song’s at all. Earlier I pointed them out and will continue to do so.

(After training for 5 years I'd say I'm no longer a newbie your an ass to think so.)

Again, wrong. Being a westerner, Kung Fu is not part of your life, nor is it part of your culture. At best you’ve just entered the intermediate stage and your just starting to see through the fog that clouds your vision, and this statement applies to most.
I learned that in order for anyone to be good in the Martial Arts 3 things are needed
1) A good teacher, 2) A good method (as far as how it taught to the individual), and 3) innate talent. Any thing less, the results will be just that. Your standard will not be that high.

(also I went to this place called school and they made you learn by reading so I'd have to say you must have missed out on that if you think reading doesn't help you understand things.)

You don’t learn the Martial Arts by reading. You learn by doing. Reading gives you an idea, but after doing hands on for a while, you’ll throw the books away. They may point in the direction but are hardly the destination.

In the end, there is much I didn’t say to a lot of what you’ve written but you need to do a lot of research if really learning is your true goal.

After reading what you’ve written I originally intended to tell you all the forms of your style, but I’ve changed my mind because you need to search on your own. Many have tried to talk to you and your adamant with your stand and such bull headedness offends me. But I will give you a little of what you asked for:

(-In your style do you train:
1)standing postures?
2)singular strikes?
3)changes if so what are names?)

Standing Postures:
San Choy (San Ti)
Embrace
Hawk
Hanging Leg
T-stance
Ma Bu
Classic Guard Stance

Moving Postures: (Changes)
Single and Double palm
8 Mother Palms and the changes according to the 3 Basin they are practiced in.

Singular Strikes:
Various Palms such as the Pounding palm, Sweeping palm, Tornado palm, Reverse palm, etc… and these are combined a various points depending on goal.
The same holds for the kicks.

By the way:
(THE ENTIRE STYLE OF YBS HAS:
-72 postures(8 are circle turning postures)
-96+ strikes
-448 changes
-72 leg tech.s(monkey contains most the leg strikes)

What happened to the:

168 Stabbing Palms
504 free hand exercises
72 straight-line fighting sets
72 counter Qinna exercises and the
72 striking points?

You said that what you wrote was the entire system and I still left some out. Come on man.

Anyway back to me.

64 palms
64 palms two man set
72 Kicks
Anti Qinna methods
Rou Shou
Push hands
Free sparring

Two man conditioning methods
Apparatus conditioning methods

Weapons:
Staff
Spear
Double head Spear
Big Dao
Straight sword
Fan
Deerhorn Knives
Judges Pen
Chain Whip

And so that you understand, I’ve trained a variety of Ba-Gua styles over the years and these are all part of my practice and teaching methods.

You may feel dissed, but the way you come off, I don’t care but hopefully you may take heed to some of this.
Anyway I’m out.



Practice doesn’t make perfect, Perfect practice makes perfect.

[BAI HE]

Great stuff Maoshan, great stuff.

[Walter Joyce]

Thank you Moashan.

Its nice to have the truly knowledgeable back posting things of substance.

[Josh Vogel]

Hi,

Maoshan, thanks for the great information! I wanted to ask about Xin Yun of Pa; do you know where in Pa he is? Anywhere close to Philly that you know of? Thanks for your time,
Regards,
Josh

[Buddy]

That, I would say, is what we call a schooling.
Buddy

[blacktaoist]

**** Maoshan that was truly one hell schooling you put on money. Any way the Yin teacher name is Zhang Yun not Xin Yun...Hahah **** everyone makes mistakes...Hahaha

Yo Josh for information on Zhang Yun go to this link :


http://www.geocities.com/ycgf/shifu_zy.htm

[Josh Vogel]

Hi,

Blacktaoist, thanks for the link and your time.
Josh