how to center?

[Phenix]

As it was said : come recieve goes return, subdue action with silence, freed hand direct trust, using the Kang and Rou power adaptively.


A fundamental question group before one can applied the above.


How do you center yourself when you face an aggressor or a grappler or a thai boxer?
how do you calm your mind without having a black out or freeze?
how do you slow down you heart rate to not being accelerate unneccesary?
how do you get ready for your physical posture/ structure?
how do you balance or centering to stay in the best condition you can?
How do you make sure your are ready for whatever is coming your way?

Care to share?
you can use your own language to explain in details, from Yoga to modern science to..... to black magic, any terms to explain your process of achieving center ----Jung. :D

[Phenix]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Phil Redmond

But If I know a fight is about to happen I try using breath control techniques to help slow my heart rate down.

I can also use external neural stimulation, etc. Once the heart rate goes up you can experience sensory depravation, (loss of hearing, tunnel vision, etc).

I just attended a seminar on the subject. It's ironic that you asked. Law enforcement is training to limit the sensory depravation that occurs during gun battles. I could have used that type of training in Vietnam.
Phil
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Hi Phil,

Great!
can you please get into the detail on external neural stimulation...these stuffs? Thanks.



I can also use external neural stimulation, etc. Once the heart rate goes up you can experience sensory depravation, (loss of hearing, tunnel vision, etc). -----------phil

Yup. the heart rate goes up and ....
that is where I am trying to brought back the Zen, effort less non expectation alertness training in......
Yee, Nim, Shen... how all those things fit into the big picture.
All those people think me as cooku ZEN ZEN Stuffs, where the ancestors address this stuffs in a serious matter and secretive way.

It is said, "Afraid of hit will be hit. "
lots of these stuffs has traning technics. not just wise words .... otherwise, one's the heart beat goes up everything is forgotern and nothing will work. it is another alter state.

The time, space,..... logic... goes when the tunnel vision and sensory depravation begin.

There is a different between react in an emotional bust state where one has depravative alertness and response with effortless alertness.

[anerlich]

where the ancestors address this stuffs in a serious matter and secretive way

To what end, with the secrecy? Do we need to act like they did in Century 21? Why?

To the subject at hand:

BREATHE. Equalize the internal and external pressure. Exhalation is more important than inhalation, and promotes active relaxation.

MOVE. TRY to stay loose and not "Statue" up.

Try to keep a broad external focus, and in particular do not focus on your internal dialogue and state. I've been told by an expert that it is best not to look directly at the adversary's face, but maybe 10 degrees off line - looking directly at them tends to engage central vision, the emotional centres and cerebral functions, whereas peripheral vision allows for pre-conscious processing of stimuli and faster reactions - Of course this is more applicable to H2H combat than a gunfight where the other guy might be 10 metres or more away.

Scott Sonnon's "Fisticuffs" series, particularly the "Flow state performance spiral" material elucidates these concepts in great detail.

A process of preparation and acclimatisation in training is essential for any of this to work. Knowing how to do it and benig ABLE to do it are very different.

[Phil Redmond]

I'm with you Andrew about all the mumbo jumbo. Common since works wonders.
First you have to deal with the stress of an attack. So you'll need some sort of stress management training. Once the confrontation begins you'll ned to get over the initial trauma. You can use autosuggestion exercises, breathing exercises, and some type of 'live' meditation. Basically you must know that you WILL survive this encounter.
You need to be able to identify a life-threatening situations before they occur. Again, basically, you need street smarts. I honestly can say that I've had a pistol pointed at me on a few occaisons. I won't even go into any boring Vietnam war stories. There are lots of people who have experienced like situations so I'm no exception. Until you've been in situations that are really life threatening it's all academic. I have noticed though that as I get older I take less risk. I've finally realized that I'm not invincible ;) I'm a lot calmer now. I've been through a few muggings since I moved to Detroit 7years ago. I fought my way of of all but one. On one occaison I just calmly gave up the money while smiling with the nervous mugger and his friend. At first my ego was hurt because I was not supposed to be a victim I thought, I'm a martial artist. How could that happen to me? I should have done thsi and that. I eventually laughed and got over that feeling quick, fast, and in a hurry. I wasn't shot and that's what counted.
Phil

[kj]

Nice post, and good references as usual, AN.


Originally posted by anerlich
Scott Sonnon's "Fisticuffs" series, particularly the "Flow state performance spiral" material elucidates these concepts in great detail.

FWIW, I happened upon this review. (http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/fisticuffs-31.htm)

Phil, thanks for sharing your personal anecdotes. Your mature and maturing perspectives win my respect.

I am tangentially reminded of Sanford Strong's sound advice: a) your number one priority is to escape, and b) expect to be injured. I agree that this last aspect can make all the difference in how we focus and respond to the task at hand. Even in the relatively controlled and "safe" context of our Wing Chun training we are often reminded "You will be hit." Knowing that helps under any circumstances; how we respond when it happens matters.

Regards,
- kj

[Phenix]

To what end, with the secrecy? Do we need to act like they did in Century 21...........

[/B][/QUOTE]




Thanks for your input. Great View!



Somehow you seems to not like about mentioning about WCK's ancestors teaching and the way how they taught :D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
I with you Andrew about all the mumbo jumbo.

Hi Phil,


Great Sharing! Thanks.



hahahaha, can't get rid of Grandma's tradition. :D

I take and embrace their tradition and their teaching as it is, similar to some love Pizza some love noodle.. embrace them and show other as it is. whether I like the way they do things or not.

The question always is ofcorse, in WCK how far has those ancestors reach or attain, compare with what we know today.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no mumbo jumbo if one understood why they say or do behind the what. :D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond

You can use autosuggestion exercises, breathing exercises, and some type of 'live' meditation. Basically you must know that you WILL survive this encounter.......



Great!


and ofcorse, this is a good question that , whether do we have this exercises and training in our daily WCK training.

[Phenix]

Hey Phenix. You ask some good questions. I just hope some ones can answer in wc terms.

I have a long ways to go but it seems to me that the balance you are talking about starts with sil lim tao and builds up from there during chi sao and the other forms. And then you have to try and maintain that kind of balance when things heat up.

In order to control all the breathing and reactions, well thats hard and no guarantees when the flap hits the fan. One thing we do and we have to do is to gradually turn up the heat in practice. Maybe there is something mysticle about it but I don't think there hast to be. I need a lot more work on that but already I can see changes happening in myself so I know the training is making a difference.

It would be great it if you could give some of your own explanations in wc terms. Yoga is fine but I would rather go to the yoga forum to talk about yoga and talk more directly about wc stuff here. Don't you think the wc designers built the stuff we needed into the system already?

I would really like to here some other people's ideas on this too. The centering, balance, breathing and mind are all good questions. And I also would like to hear some wc stories even if they don't interest you. I think we can learn a lot from other people and the stories they have to tell.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey Fresh,

WC stories is great. However, we need to get realistic. Otherwise, we are greating false seculity and illusion for us.
I dont buy this kind of stuffs. http://www.kungpowmovie.com/swf/KPmain.html


I like myth and tales and fantasy similar to this one.
Hehehehehe Oh my God, here comes again.
http://www.apple.com/trailers/universal/van_helsing/trailer/large.html

mix old mumbo jumbo with new high tech and some wild things are born. :D




"In order to control all the breathing and reactions, well thats hard and no guarantees when the flap hits the fan. One thing we do and we have to do is to gradually turn up the heat in practice. " -------------

I always has toy like this
http://www.healthchecksystems.com/suunto_x6hr.htm
to test the so called Mumbo jumbo method.
So, we can know some mumbo jumbo can be verified with high tech. :D

And from these toys, what I found out is. Just do it. or Just do SLT or SNT....physically doesnt work to build up the balance. it has its limit if the Mind/breathing/body unity technics is not brought back.
So, some mumbo jumbo did makes a big different.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by anerlich


Try to keep a broad external focus, and in particular do not focus on your internal dialogue and state. I've been told by an expert that it is best not to look directly at the adversary's face, but maybe 10 degrees off line - looking directly at them tends to engage central vision, the emotional centres and cerebral functions, whereas peripheral vision allows for pre-conscious processing of stimuli and faster reactions -.


That is great. and I do believe this is very true.

However we almost need " a way of life" training of non subjective observation (Zen or called it what ever you like) ; otherwise, once the heart beat goes up. everying over write and off the bet.

And now the question is ---- does our SLT which we keep train in and train in.... give us that training?
Do we want to evoke this technology if it is there. Do we want to import a technology into SLT if it is not designed with it.


IMHO, before we knows what is centering or balancing or the state of dynamic centering.. or Zen whatever one wants to call it, it doesnt matter.
There is no simple, direct, straight forward WCK. Because our mind/breathing/body lead us to a path we never know how to deal with and logic doesnt work there because it is a functional control issue, not a intelect thinking issues.

[anerlich]

Somehow you seems to not like about mentioning about WCK's ancestors teaching and the way how they taught

Somehow you don't seem to like mentioning it either, seeing as you've dodged my question about the validity of their methods by trying to turn it back on me.

Some of their methods seem to go to great lengths to avoid sound basic principles of education.


The question always is ofcorse, in WCK how far has those ancestors reach or attain, compare with what we know today.

Well, yeah, that IS INDEED the question. Leaving aside the probable hyperbole of legend, if they *were* as great as claimed, and few of us have *allegedly* reached their levels, does not that then imply that they can do it, but not teach it? i.e that their teaching methodology sucks?


There is no mumbo jumbo if one understood why they say or do behind the what.

Oh, so once you break the code or lift the veils, everything is simple. What then is the point of the obfuscation, in the age of machine pistols and helicopter gunships, when arcane knowledge of oriental MA esoterica is no longer likely to mean the difference between life and death?


And now the question is ---- does our SLT which we keep train in and train in.... give us that training?

No. SLT is a vocabulary of technique and structure. It is not a means of increasing one's tolerance for stress or ability to manage fear, at least not any more so than the way any other form of exercise can.

SLT is used by some as a form of meditation, but IMO to treat it that way is to both meditate and practice MA inefficiently. You may say 2+2=5, but really 2+2=3 and we all know it. In any case, IMO a meditative state is not what you want in the middle of a violent attack.

To reach the goals you are discussing you need incremental exposure to the specific stressful situations you are training for or close, safer approximations thereof, or if that is impractical or too dangerous, through visualisation and role playing. As discussed in Strong on Defense ;)

[Phil Redmond]

>>Oh, so once you break the code or lift the veils, everything is simple. What then is the point of the obfuscation, in the age of machine pistols and helicopter gunships, when arcane knowledge of oriental MA esoterica is no longer likely to mean the difference between life and death?<<

You had to go there eh Andrew? Your statement reminds me of the Boxer Rebellion ;)

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
>>Oh, so once you break the code or lift the veils, everything is simple. What then is the point of the obfuscation, in the age of machine pistols and helicopter gunships, when arcane knowledge of oriental MA esoterica is no longer likely to mean the difference between life and death?<<

You had to go there eh Andrew? Your statement reminds me of the Boxer Rebellion ;)


Sure, there is boxer rebellion,
In the past of Chinese martial art history.

But, there is also:

Why is it those indoor students or the sifu's son in the old time always better then those hard train external door or different last name students?

Why is 90% of TaiJi people doesnt know how to Fa Jing?


BAck to the topic of centering.

WCK rely on listerning. it is a listerning art. So, if there is no mind/breathing/body training which makes the listerning is less independent or independent to the stress and be able to be alert all the time or most of the time.

All training will be wasted once the heart beat goes high. Doesnt make sense isnt it? :D

[Phenix]

SLT is used by some as a form of meditation, but IMO to treat it that way is to both meditate and practice MA inefficiently. You may say 2+2=5, but really 2+2=3 and we all know it. In any case, IMO a meditative state is not what you want in the middle of a violent attack. ----------------

what if the meditation you thought is not the type of meditation which it means to be?
Meditation is a broad word.



To reach the goals you are discussing you need incremental exposure to the specific stressful situations you are training for or close, safer approximations thereof, or if that is impractical or too dangerous, through visualisation and role playing. As discussed in Strong on Defense ;)


Sure, and how did WCK's training bring one there---- centering?
other wise, forget about those tan sau or lap sau. :D it might not work.

If the art is incapable of bring one to Centering then the art is about a taking chances. hopefully, one's heart beat doesnt goes up. one's doesnt go into tunel vision. one...... to many chances for one to screw up.

[anerlich]

"Why is it those indoor students or the sifu's son in the old time always better then those hard train external door or different last name students?"

Other than wishful thinking, what justification do you have for that statement? Are you SURE that yesteryear's fabled experts would REALLY come out on top if they fought today's elite?

( ** Andrew suspends disbelief for a few seconds **)

If this were the case, mightn't it just be that the family members and closed door students spent more time with the instructor?

Hopefully you would be better if you did that, wouldn't you, otherwise what's the point?

Or that they didn't tell the hoi polloi everything they knew, which only reinforces the argument that as educators they were no great shakes?

"Why is 90% of TaiJi people doesnt know how to Fa Jing?"

Why do 90% of streetfights end up on the ground? Do you have any evidence to back up that sweeping statistical generalisation?

Maybe because their teachers couldn't teach effectively, and theirs before them?

Why, if either of your statements were true ( ** Andrew suspends disbelief for a few seconds **) does this refute my observation that perhaps their educational principles are inefficient and outdated?

"BAck to the topic of centering."

Sure, whatever, seeing as you seem to want to appear mysterious and enigmatic (IMO a sign of a poor teacher, concerned with self-image rather than students) rather than bring up any effective arguments as to why the old ways were better.

[anerlich]

what if the meditation you thought is not the type of meditation which it means to be?

As a famous Australian once said "Please explain?" that statement makes no sense. What is the "it" in what "it means to be"?


Meditation is a broad word.

And exactly how broad depends on the font in your browser. :o

If you're trying to imply you know more about this than me, then perhaps you could one-up your WC ancestors and explain how so in detail, thus educating your readers more effectively than they. Assuming that you actually have something worth reading ...


Sure, and how did WCK's training bring one there---- centering? other wise, forget about those tan sau or lap sau. it might not work.

Wing Chun training should include progressive exposure to stress. But practising SLT alone does not do that.


If the art is incapable of bring one to Centering then the art is about a taking chances.

Combat is always a gamble, despite claims to the contrary about a particular lineage made in a recent WC book.

"hopefully, one's heart beat doesnt goes up. one's doesnt go into tunel vision. "

That isn't a gamble. That will always happen at levels of extreme stress and exertion. Training can mitigate it, but until effective cybernetic or pharmacological overrides are invented, you can always count on it happening eventually.

[Phenix]

Other than wishful thinking, what justification do you have for that statement? Are you SURE that yesteryear's fabled experts would REALLY come out on top if they fought today's elite? -------


I dont look at this in a yesteryears or today elite's view.

I look at it as how advance a "state" has been attained both in mind/breathing/body cultivation and fighting applications.



Sure, whatever, seeing as you seem to want to appear mysterious and enigmatic (IMO a sign of a poor teacher, concerned with self-image rather than students) rather than bring up any effective arguments as to why the old ways were better. ----------------


There is no mysterious about centering.
There is no arguements of old ways or new ways.

The question is IS IT A WAY for advance state? New or Old doesnt matter.

and IMHO,
With L J's and other's writing as evidents compare with Mas Oyama's description of his mind/body states. There is such way in WCK and some one in the past has achieved atleast what Mas Oyama achived.


Now, the question is how do we train to attain centering, a very basic fundamental requirement of a martial art system.

[Phenix]

As a famous Australian once said "Please explain?" that statement makes no sense. What is the "it" in what "it means to be"?--------------


Is the training and capability of be able to live in NOW unconditionally a meditation?





If you're trying to imply you know more about this than me, then perhaps you could one-up your WC ancestors and explain how so in detail, thus educating your readers more effectively than they. Assuming that you actually have something worth reading ... ------


Say based on the L J lineage kuit which I post up days ago. There are plenty of things there can be studied from.
Thus, there is no implication but my take is the ancestors of WCK knows more then lots of us today. They have achived advance "state" which we might even not believe exist.








That isn't a gamble. That will always happen at levels of extreme stress and exertion. Training can mitigate it, but until effective cybernetic or pharmacological overrides are invented, you can always count on it happening eventually. ---------


I agree with you to some degree.
ANd my question is, for a general WCK practioner, how much such training has he or she recieves? how much they can center in the WCK training?

[Phenix]

I hope that the others WCK sisters like KJ participate in this discussion. IMHO, i thinking centering is critical if one is going to rely on this art for self defence.

On the other way, Centering will help us on daily life too. We can see things and deal with things better. Be it at home or work.. serious or while playing.


I certainly believe there is technology embeded in SLT training for centering.....



what do you all think? anything is great. See, long time ago, WCK emphasis in center line. immovable elbow....
I see the same philosophy or concept... applied in physical also applied in mental and breathing realm. Once upon the center line and immovable in the physical realm needs to move further into the breathing and mental realm. --- and form the key of centering.

I can be right or wrong. however, if we cant center when someone rush in to grap. Then, all the WCK training will have low effectiveness.

[anerlich]

There is no arguements of old ways or new ways.

LOL. Most of the thread has been you saying the old ways and guys were the best, me saying "not necessarily bacause, and if so why?" and you throwing out red herrings and avoiding the issue.

But, OK. No argument if you say so.

"Thus, there is no implication"

LOL, see above.

"but my take is the ancestors of WCK knows more then lots of us today. They have achived advance "state" which we might even not believe exist."

But this is unverifiable. And as such how does it help anybody? You have to work with what you have living in the HERE and NOW, as you keep reminding us ad nauseam.

[PaulH]

Okay, Hendrik! I give up so how do you balance or center when an incredible Hulk rushing in at you at some futuristic time?

As I mentioned on another thread that it takes two to tangle. It is interesting to speculate the what if one has no fear and acts as though the opponent is not really there accordingly. Something like if he is not a real threat, why do you breath and pant so hard or lose your balance for that matter? It's all so very existential! BE IMO is the DO sufficiently for now!

Beimodo yours,

PH

[Da_Moose]

I agree with Paul here,

While the initial question of the thread is very valid and worth a good discussion, how can we go about doing so without all of this bickering? "This old way vs. that modern way."

Hendrik, you seem to be getting frustrated by the vaugeness of other people's answers, yet you stated in the beginning post that we could use any language we wanted to explain our ideas. Dude, what's up? Make up your mind! Do you want us to be specific and follow certain standards, or are you sticking to your original request for explainations? Please pick one and then adhere to it.


Also, as has happened before in these types of discussions, where is the scenario to use as a starting point? This is an important detail, yes? What is the aggressor ready to do? Has he already engaged with you and broken your center and now you need to recover it, or has the battle not yet started? Does he have a weapon? If so, a knife, gun, stick?

In the onset of a fight, I would strive to maintain my center by setting up my space to limit the aggressor's options. What he wants to do is not my primary concern. I react to what my space tells me to. I don't react out by trying to guess what he'll do, this causes me to break my center. My body is aligned in a way to protect my center, but so that I can also move while maintaining my center, as well as my forward energy. Ultimately, I want to position myself so that I am just outside of my opponent's structure without him being able to perceive it. This is how I train, it is how I react as well. I train with a spatial mindset and turn off my emotions. I am true to myself, to my space and time and no other, this is my center.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by anerlich


LOL. Most of the thread has been you saying the old ways and guys were the best, me saying "not necessarily bacause, and if so why?"
and you throwing out red herrings and avoiding the issue.





if you want to keep your focus in the old and todays... you are free to do so. What's wrong with the old chinese ancestors can do better then us today?





As I post above:

---------------------------------------

I dont look at this in a yesteryears or today elite's view.

I look at it as how advance a "state" has been attained both in mind/breathing/body cultivation and fighting applications.


IMHO,
With L J's and other's writing as evidents compare with Mas Oyama's description of his mind/body states. There is such way in WCK and some one in the past has achieved atleast what Mas Oyama achived.


------------------------------------------


If the Old Ancestors has leaved us writting about the "state" they achieve what is the reason we can not brought them up?

L J fought alots and you didnt hear him go learn Mongolian Wrestling or Northern kIcks dont you? He always did WCK :D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Okay, Hendrik!

1, I give up so how do you balance or center when an incredible Hulk rushing in at you at some futuristic time?

2, As I mentioned on another thread that it takes two to tangle. It is interesting to speculate the what if one has no fear and acts as though the opponent is not really there accordingly.

Something like if he is not a real threat, why do you breath and pant so hard or lose your balance for that matter? It's all so very existential! BE IMO is the DO sufficiently for now!

Beimodo yours,

PH


Pual,

1, when Ernie spar with you do you have a balance before even the sparring starts? if you are in balance then how do you keep it? if you are not isnt it a big issue? because before the sparing you have lost balance.

2, what needs to be brought to center or balance if one has no fear? as a human, one can sense all the sensation, and what to do about it is about centering. the question is how to center/balance so things are not out of control?

[Phenix]

While the initial question of the thread is very valid and worth a good discussion, how can we go about doing so without all of this bickering? "This old way vs. that modern way." ------------


---------

I dont look at this in a yesteryears or today elite's view.

I look at it as how advance a "state" has been attained both in mind/breathing/body cultivation and fighting applications.

----------------------


Either one wants to continous "This old way vs. that modern way." or discussing "state" which beyond "old way vs modern way" that is one's choice. IT is a free wolrd. but what is the modern way of breathing anyway? :D




Hendrik, you seem to be getting frustrated by the vaugeness of other people's answers, yet you stated in the beginning post that we could use any language we wanted to explain our ideas.

Dude, what's up? Make up your mind! Do you want us to be specific and follow certain standards, or are you sticking to your original request for explainations? Please pick one and then adhere to it. -----------------



IMHO,
Attainment of "states" is not limited by language. describe what one have attain from one's "state" that is the key.

however we need to be able to be open and embrace on other issues raise, and how others see things.




Also, as has happened before in these types of discussions, where is the scenario to use as a starting point? This is an important detail, yes? What is the aggressor ready to do?
Has he already engaged with you and broken your center and now you need to recover it, or has the battle not yet started? Does he have a weapon? If so, a knife, gun, stick? --------


There no needs a scenario. IMHO

human mind/breathing/body is not linear of static. It is a dynamic flow. Centering IMHO has to aware of this dynamic flow. and A martial artist has to know and be able to some degree compensate this dynamic flow before even engage.







In the onset of a fight, I would strive to maintain my center by setting up my space to limit the aggressor's options.

What he wants to do is not my primary concern. I react to what my space tells me to.
I don't react out by trying to guess what he'll do, this causes me to break my center.
My body is aligned in a way to protect my center, but so that I can also move while maintaining my center, as well as my forward energy.

Ultimately, I want to position myself so that I am just outside of my opponent's structure without him being able to perceive it. This is how I train, it is how I react as well. I train with a spatial mindset and turn off my emotions. I am true to myself, to my space and time and no other, this is my center. ------

Great.
Thanks for sharing.

how do you turn off your emotion?

[Ernie]

How do you center yourself when you face an aggressor or a grappler or a Thai boxer?

[[[[[[There is no center or ‘’ myself ‘’ unless you mean a neutral state of mind, a cold calmness, I treat it all the same if I get hit then I get hit if I hit him then he gets hit if I walk away then I walk away, no different the tieing my shoe or walking across the street]]]]]]]]

How do you calm your mind without having a black out or freeze?

[[[[[Referring to the above situation, well there really is only one way, as others have said to place yourself through stress overload in incremental doses, if you want to swim then get in the water don’t practice on dry land, find your calmness through the fog of war, in life when you meet people that have been though real combat and killed people there is a calmness of spirit, it’s the guys that never really fought that make up all the ‘’ safe ways to pretend ‘‘ like sit in your stance and calm your mind and breath and then you will be ready for anything , drop those same dudes in south central at night and they will **** there panties ]]]]]


How do you slow down you heart rate to not being accelerated unnecessary?

[[[[The only way is to get experience or else your just pretending and even after much experience you still never now since you might have different reactions based on what you feel that day, may be your tired or sick or distracted maybe your best friend just died or you got fired or you have been drinking, nothing is fixed, this is the honest truth but you will find people to lie to you all the time and say if you do step 1,2,3 for ‘x’ amount of time you will have the skills that pay the bills, again drop them in a unfamiliar hostile environment and watch the pee pee flow ]]]


How do you get ready for your physical posture/ structure?

[[[[By having no fixed posture that would mean I need a crutch and thus be limited and non adaptive,
Train from any position if you stand then stand If you sit then sit if you fall on the ground then flow from there, if you can’t well there is always slt ha ha ha ha ha]]]]

How do you balance or centering to stay in the best condition you can?

[[[[You can’t in real life things happen you adapt you can only hope your training has given you the ability to adapt and not be fixed or freeze if you end up in unfamiliar territory as for condition well you should always be in the best condition you can be in at all times if you consider yourself a martial artist and have respect for your body]]]]]

How do you make sure your are ready for whatever is coming your way

[[[[[You don’t, how can you be ready for a guy coming up behind you and stabbing you in the kidney, or different terrain, the best you can do is burn those old scrolls and start training like your life depended on it, sure the old masters fought and died but that was then this is now, killing bulls or picking through fragmented history of some old wing chun dude means nothing to the poor kid trying to make it through the streets today, were mass attack weapons, drive by shootings are common place . adaptability fitness awareness are paramount . and not sitting in a room burning incense staring at a candle in a stance awareness . you want to be centered grow up in the ghetto were you develop a feel for your environment , were your instincts are what you rely on , were any day at school or on the way to the store you can get jumped and you need to run , climb fences and hide control you breathing so the guys looking for you don’t hear you . when your heart is beating so loud it’s deafening and you have to calm down , were split second descions make the difference from getting home safe or waking up in alley missing your shoes and you coat from a beat down .

Go tell that kid about sitting in a stance and killing bulls old fables, watch him spit in your face and walk away

But then again there is always the mystical wonders of slt.

[Phenix]

Ernie,

Thanks for you input.



like sit in your stance and calm your mind and breath and then you will be ready for anything , drop those same dudes in south central at night and they will **** there panties --------


hahahaha. sure some goes this way some dont. may be there are things you dont know? there are things being done right and there are things being done wrong. there are strenght and weakness and limitation in everything and who knows it all? :D




The only way is to get experience or else your just pretending and even after much experience you still never now since you might have different reactions based on what you feel that day, may be your tired or sick or distracted maybe your best friend just died or you got fired or you have been drinking, nothing is fixed,

this is the honest truth but you will find people to lie to you all the time and say if you do step 1,2,3 for ‘x?amount of time you will have the skills that pay the bills, again drop them in a unfamiliar hostile environment and watch the pee pee flow----



True but not all true.
Just swim without a great coach doesnt produce great swimmer.
Just swim without knowing the method doesnt go very far.

lots of things in this world started with 1,2,3 and a feedback learning system. a continous learning system is a system with clear goal, steps, and feedback for correction.

The definetion of Martial art different from person to person. But for self-defence. it is about weak defeating/protecting from the strong. So, how can one center before even anything happen? that is the question.





Go tell that kid about sitting in a stance and killing bulls old fables, watch him spit in your face and walk away ------


You dont like Mas Oyama or L J that is fine. You dont like thier teaching that is fine too. But that doesnt mean you are right because you dont like the way they do things isnt it? :D

[Phenix]

IMHO,

The definetion of Martial art different from person to person. But for self-defence. it is about weak defeating/protecting from the strong and agression. So, how can one do it? that is the question. First, how do one centering ? what needs to be aware of?



a swimmer from a great coach can always says " it is easy". but is that a fact? or that swimmer has been taught and train with the important key points by the great coach. Certainly, the swimmer might not know why he did certain things because he was spoon feed and become a habit. And what if the coach die and the great swimmer was defeated now what? where to start to collect all the pices from scrath?

Throw away the old coach's writing? is the first steps or look deeply into the reason why the old coach did what he did?



A person with a strong physical body since born will always says "just do it", but is that a fact? how about people who was born less fortunate?

What if somedays this strong guy due to eating and drinking and shallow breathing and end up he got high blood pressure or a stroke. Now what? can he being macho and boasting that "Just do it?" Or he has to go back to check what has he eaten which lead him to all of these if he wants a change?




See, if one wants to use oneself as the reference than, not much can be said. The billion air's kids always can say "scr22 you" you old fool with your PHD. no matter how that PHD work hard to make a living and contribute.

So the point is about explore how to help others who is weaker become stronger. The stronger even better. Not practising the Billionair son's attitude. Oh money is easy.


What if somedays the Billionair's kid go broke. and now, how to make a living?



The question of centering is simple: Do we know what are we dealing with,what is going on, and do we have the training for what we need?

some believe in the macho sifu about "just do it. just swim".
some believe in sitting there doing nothing and magic will appear?
That is fine. But does it has to go this way?

It is about that old coach's experince or it is about the new age elite appear on the tV.
Or it is about what is going on and do one have the training for centering which one needs ?

Certainly different people see things differently.

However, the question remain, how do one centering?

Sure, the billionair's son can said, what a crap I just call my body guard. :D

But how about that lady has to work night shift to make a living? have anyone think about them?

[PaulH]

From my religious perspective, the Source has always been the One who made heaven and earth, Yang and Yin, and ultimately one's life and death. So my center of life always is God-Centered. "Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil..."

Regards,
PH

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Phenix

Originally posted by Phil Redmond

But If I know a fight is about to happen I try using breath control techniques to help slow my heart rate down.

I can also use external neural stimulation, etc. Once the heart rate goes up you can experience sensory depravation, (loss of hearing, tunnel vision, etc).

I just attended a seminar on the subject. It's ironic that you asked. Law enforcement is training to limit the sensory depravation that occurs during gun battles. I could have used that type of training in Vietnam.
Phil
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Hi Phil,

Great!
can you please get into the detail on external neural stimulation...these stuffs? Thanks.

[desertwingchun2]

How do you center yourself when you face an aggressor or a grappler or a thai boxer?

Through the mindset of being resolved from the beginning. If you are resolved that "bad things happen sometimes", when and if they do you will not be perplexed. Or, still "centered".

how do you calm your mind without having a black out or freeze?

If you've been there you know if you're the type to freeze/blackout or not. Once you know yourself why wouldn't one be calm?

how do you slow down you heart rate to not being accelerate unneccesary?

Get real! Adreneline is going to flow naturally and increase the heart rate. Many perceive this to a result of fear. Well, if anyone say's they aren't scared of a fight 90% would be less than honest and 10% would know something you didn't. But don't confuse not wanting to fight with not willing to.

how do you get ready for your physical posture/ structure?
Siu Nim Tao

how do you balance or centering to stay in the best condition you can?

SLT, CK, BJ

How do you make sure your are ready for whatever is coming your way?

Read my signature

-David

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
From my religious perspective, the Source has always been the One who made heaven and earth, Yang and Yin, and ultimately one's life and death. So my center of life always is God-Centered. "Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil..."

Regards,
PH


Paul,

Great.

The question is certainly about will our mind/breathing/body behave as we think there are? hahahahaha

[desertwingchun2]

you want to be centered grow up in the ghetto were you develop a feel for your environment , were your instincts are what you rely on , were any day at school or on the way to the store you can get jumped and you need to run , climb fences and hide control you breathing so the guys looking for you don’t hear you . when your heart is beating so loud it’s deafening and you have to calm down , were split second descions make the difference from getting home safe or waking up in alley missing your shoes and you coat from a beat down . - Ernie

Sounds like a party I went to once in Barrio Sunrise. Man the whole neighborhood was lookin for me. Thank goodness for BIG palm trees and a smaller pansa !!

-David

[PaulH]

Well, Hendrik. Let look at history. What did the Romans say about the christians being thrown to the lions? "They died well!"
I do believe they have "religion" or "the peace that passes all understandings."

Regards,
PH

[Ernie]

hendrik ,

how did man learn to swim/fight before there were coaches

also you can become the king of practice yet a fool in application

as for my oppinion of the bull killer and lj
i can care less what another man can do i only care about what i can do

i have allways found it funny when people '' follow '' a person or a way

it's like there to lazy to do it for themselves

as for weak and strong beyond birht defects and sickness we are all born into this world weak

it becomes personal choice if you wish to stay that way

i mean really if you only see yourself as a sheep or less than how strong will you every be ?
mentally physically or emotionaly

if you draw your information from a world of fables and 1/2 truth you will always be seeking and have a weak foundation

if you just accept who you are and build on that you will grow

but to worship a ghost that is well ,,,,,, to each there own

[Ernie]

david
Sounds like a party I went to once in Barrio Sunrise. Man the whole neighborhood was lookin for me. Thank goodness for BIG palm trees and a smaller pansa !!

lol that was classic :D

but man i just like to keep things in perspective , to many non fighting , non training, no application wing chun people with oppinions on training and fighting and applying

everything works when it's tested in controlled enviroments , wing chun is on the fast track to becoming karate , chi sau comps, next we will have form comps . and people standing there talking about whats going on internally .

internally i feel the vomit coming up ;)

thanks for the laugh

[Phenix]

ernie,

how did man learn to swim/fight before there were coaches
also you can become the king of practice yet a fool in application -----

When the olympic started and record are kept until broken there needs coaches right? :D



as for my oppinion of the bull killer and lj
i can care less what another man can do i only care about what i can do -----

Certainly, you are right in your own way.

However when one talks about WCK or Karate and World Martial art develpment. Then, one cannot omit L J or Mas Oyama.




i have allways found it funny when people '' follow '' a person or a way . it's like there to lazy to do it for themselves -----

You can be right in your own way. and sure there are people like that.

However,
you have make an assumtion here about others.
There can be various reason people study other person's record. Even to evol, one needs to understand what is going on.

It is blind to not study the past and look at the present situation.

If you are doing Tan Sau and bong sao or praticing WCK or SLT or CK do you follow a person or a way too? and how far have you follow? :D






as for weak and strong beyond birht defects and sickness we are all born into this world weak.

it becomes personal choice if you wish to stay that way

i mean really if you only see yourself as a sheep or less than how strong will you every be ?
mentally physically or emotionaly -----


I hope I can agree with you.

But go to the hospital and check out the people who born weaker or defect or cancer patient. Go to the un employment office or Immigration office to see there are plenty of people who was not that fortunate and things goes wrong again and again beyond thier control.

So, world is not that simple. How many times in sequence it takes to break a person's confident if bad things happen? Not too many. and sure, if one has the courage then that is a great blessing. as for the general most. People killed thier own belove family in the silicon valley. Very sad. because they got laid off. and because once they were pushed to a certain limit they break and not be able to get back to center.

Thus, be able to identify the components about balancing and centering with having a support system is important. IMHO. no one and no one will stay strong all time. that is the reality.




if you draw your information from a world of fables and 1/2 truth you will always be seeking and have a weak foundation ----


That is true only if one takes the information without understand what is it.
In the same token, to cut away or deny what one doesnt understood is causing the same big problem too.



if you just accept who you are and build on that you will grow
but to worship a ghost that is well ,,,,,, to each there own----

This is a great question too.

Human is easy to be condition and influence by environment. Put one in Wall street one will behave one way. Put one in jungle one will behave another way. ....

designers here in the north california, dont worship ghost ( beside those rich guys who want false security from Fung Shui:D) they have to study the past, understand the needs of the present and from that they come up with new design, new creation.

Without a great understand of the past technology there is no elements for new creation. and if the new design is not as good as the old one. one just has to acknowledge it.

But, it is not effective at all to re design wheels where others had done before.


So, I am talking about "state" not about old or new or fables.
The bottom line is what state can be attained and are there technology to do that?

Centering is no different then technology.
The question is do we have proven technology to centering.
how to do it with mind/breathing/body.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by anerlich


Try to keep a broad external focus, and in particular do not focus on your internal dialogue and state. I've been told by an expert that it is best not to look directly at the adversary's face, but maybe 10 degrees off line - looking directly at them tends to engage central vision, the emotional centres and cerebral functions, whereas peripheral vision allows for pre-conscious processing of stimuli and faster reactions - ...


So what is the different between this EXPERT's method to the pay attantion at the edge, listern to the gap? listern to the silence, dont look but all shall reveal .... those old ZEN practice mumbo jumbo? :D






Again, as what Mas Oyama said:

While fighting, you stand facing your opponent. When the opponent attacks, you must quickly determine an attack is coming, what form it will take, where it is aimed, etc. All of this information must be relayed to the brain, where the decision is made about how to react. The brain must send a message to the body, telling it how to defend itself. This entire process takes only a fraction of a second, but what if the incoming attack is a fraction of a second faster?

If, on the other hand, you are in a Zen state while in combat, you perceive not the individual attack, but the entire situation. Your mind and body act as one, bypassing the normal reaction time to automatically perform the necessary defense measure. The normal thought process in an attack is: perception, contemplation and, finally, reaction. With Zen, you can bypass the contemplation phase and react directly after perception. Oyama, having realized this, has gone so far as to say "Karate is Zen,"


Certainly, there is not only one single method in this world.

some migth keep thinking about killing bull. while Mas Oyama has realized and walked his talk ---- undefeat in his life time.
who you rather to learn from?

[Ernie]

hendrick the king of talking in circles that lead back to nowhere

ha ha ha

man ,
just because you '' need '' bull killers and dead chinese stories to evolve don't put that on the rest of us ,
and lets cut the b.s.
with all this knowledge were is your evolution ?

just a circle of words adding to more words with no real purpose but hollow sound

you want to center yourself , look inside of yourself and stop reaching for this or that mans truth find your own
how , stop talking and gain experience

just because this man supposedly found things this way doensn't mean you will , so why follow a ghost ,
again seeking outside of yourself

why not just accept responsibility for yourself

i'm sure if you were still fighting or had to prepare for a fight , you would not waste your time linking endless words , but training hard and eveolving your skill


as for tan bong and fook , the are but static scketches this is why i never waste my time talking about wing chun hands , or specfic techniques . to do so is to be a slave and to neglect reality

you wonder why wing chun is so splintered and weak to many words , to much seeking in the past not enough dealing with the present

you want to be centered
well center yourself in the present

if you want to fight , fight
if all you do is talk then talk
if all you want are stories with no base then rent harry potter

you see hendrik here is the problem when the fighters stop fighting and the scholars[vultures] take over to think and write , and make up there ideas [ with no experience ] the art is dead ,it has lost it's purpose

to seek the purpose through the words of the scholars[un experienced ] is allready the wrong path

only the original path of the fighter will bring out the real use ,goal,mindset and so on

but this road is to difficult for the scholar [ living in a dream world ]
and so he makes himself feel better by coming up with stories and ideas and concepts that he wont get hurt in , and so he can stay in this bubble were the truth is limited

so then were is the center in the cold hard world were you hurt and bleed
or in the nice little stories of the path were everyone has a un tested oppinion

[old jong]

I think there are good lessons to be taken in both views.We can learn from the past and we can learn from personal experiences.
Somewhere in the middle area is not bad.

Ford based his work on an already invented wheel.He used his "ancestors" work to create something of his own.;)

[Bob8]

I think Ernie and Hendrik would get along real good
if they met in real live. Hendrik his way of writing
is chan-like and from a different culture so for
most hard to follow.

Hendrik has fought full-contact so I think he can
fight, Ernie. Sounds like a Scholar-fighter hehe

[Ernie]

oj
ha ha i know but some one has to take the modern extreme or to much zen / fortune cookie crap will sneak in :D

it just bust me up when people talk all this enlightment crap but when you confront them it's always some one else who has the skill and they don't

they always have an out

it's like if you can't do it then stop passing on a lie . it's like false marketing

i'm one of those '' drop me with it consistently , and show me the training method to develop it and pass it on , or why bother ''

[Ernie]

bob
I think Ernie and Hendrik would get along real good
if they met in real live. Hendrik his way of writing
is chan-like and from a different culture so for
most hard to follow.

Hendrik has fought full-contact so I think he can
fight, Ernie. Sounds like a Scholar-fighter hehe

ha ha man i think hendrik is very cool , if i didn't i wouldn't waste my time messing with his post. infact i have even had a fun chat with him on the phone and look forward to hanging out sometime :D

problem is alot of useful stuff gets lost in the mumbo jumbo so i play devils advocate to draw out more detail .
and so stuff really isn't really going to fly in the streets today .

as for me being a fighter ha man i am very comfortable with my skills but i know what real fighters are like and i'm not on that level , problem is 99percent of the really talented people i know are not wing chun ha ha ha

[PaulH]

Hendrik is about the past. Ernie is about the present. Me I'm all about the future. Pretty wild! Ha! Ha!

P.S. I'm exaggerating of course, but it is kind of true from the contents of our posts! =)

[PaulH]

Actually I found the whole discussion is fascinating so far in this ancient Chinese diagram in knotted ropes. Would you believe if I tell you it's a turtle moving in the river of time-space fabric?

4 9 2
3 5 7
8 1 6

[anerlich]

So what is the different between this EXPERT's method to the pay attantion at the edge, listern to the gap? listern to the silence, dont look but all shall reveal

The first is direct and to the point, the second is bad poetry.

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Ernie
david
Sounds like a party I went to once in Barrio Sunrise. Man the whole neighborhood was lookin for me. Thank goodness for BIG palm trees and a smaller pansa !!

lol that was classic :D


True story. now ---->:D then ---->:mad: :confused: :eek:



Originally posted by Ernie

but man i just like to keep things in perspective , to many non fighting ..... people with oppinions on training and fighting and applying ....

Opinions are safe in that they only get you so far. If you think about it, not too many people are eager to test if their opinions are based on fact or fiction. So you can kinnda look at it like skydiving; all things being equal, when it's time to jump who's the skydiver? Is it the guy who just bailed or the one still on the ground yapping about going up? Who's opinions on skydiving would you rather have?


Originally posted by Ernie

next we will have form comps . and people standing there talking about whats going on internally .

internally i feel the vomit coming up ;)


:D ... LOL, now thats classic !!!!

-David

[Ernie]

paul your asking for an thigh kick:)

[PaulH]

Ernie,

That's #5! Ha! Ha!

[anerlich]

The last chapter of "Sharpening the warrior's edge" discusses the value of religious faith in a warrior's effectiveness.

The danger in such an outlook is demonstrated admirably by the Al Qaeda martyrs.

Dying well is admirable - but dying at all is still something I'd prefer to avoid.

[Ernie]

david

Opinions are safe in that they only get you so far. If you think about it, not too many people are eager to test if their opinions are based on fact or fiction. So you can kinnda look at it like skydiving; all things being equal, when it's time to jump who's the skydiver? Is it the guy who just bailed or the one still on the ground yapping about going up? Who's opinions on skydiving would you rather have?


well put ,
but it must be true if i can trace it back to grandmaster headstuckupass this pose is the true way to '' see '' internal cultivation .

now excuse me while i jump out of the air plane with no chute since if i center my chi i will become light and just float to the earth

[Ernie]

The danger in such an outlook is demonstrated admirably by the Al Qaeda martyrs.

Dying well is admirable - but dying at all is still something I'd prefer to avoid.



ha ha you notice it's never the guy telling you how great it is to die that is first inline

only the idiots that blindly follow the ''old words''

ouch

[PaulH]

Anerlich,

It's okay! Like you I'm not a Samurai yet! =)

[anerlich]

I think there are good lessons to be taken in both views.We can learn from the past and we can learn from personal experiences.

You are correct. Those who forget the past, bla bla bah.

What I object to is the IMO overblown reverence for ancestors long dead.

If you assume that they reached skill levels that none of us can even conceive of, let alone dream about, how is that a good attitude for training? You're doomed to failure and mediocrity before you even begin.

I want to believe each generation can, and must, surpass the previous ones. Standing on the shoulders of giants maybe, but we still have the opportunity to see higher and ****her than they. Otherwise we are going nowhere or going downhill.

[anerlich]

LOL at KFO's treatment of f a r t h e r

[Mckind13]

Hey Hendrick, I just saw this J
How do you center yourself when you face an aggressor or a grappler or a thai boxer?
---By not loosing my center – being present and ready with out anticipation

how do you calm your mind without having a black out or freeze?
how do you slow down you heart rate to not being accelerate unneccesary?

--- I take a breath, then I am calm and relaxed.

how do you get ready for your physical posture/ structure?
---Any Physical posture will do. There are no real ready positions. Given the chance though Bik Ma with Mun Sau

how do you balance or centering to stay in the best condition you can?
How do you make sure your are ready for whatever is coming your way?

---Train regularly, have a plan if something bad goes down.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by anerlich


The first is direct and to the point, the second is bad poetry.

for Chinese or Japanese who practice Zen or Chan, L J or Mas Oyama it is obvious. :D

BTW, the first is still a partial description without a training methodology. :D

[PaulH]

Hendrik,

Be of good cheers for "the Journey to the West" is never easy! =)

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

Be of good cheers for "the Journey to the West" is never easy! =)


Hi Pual,

I am leaving to Transivania. So, I bring my centering there in case I met Count Dracula. :D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Mckind13
Hey Hendrick, I just saw this ....


Thanks for sharing.



In the Chinese martial art, there is Nei Kung or internal art.
And within internal art, there is Qi Gung and Shen Gung.


Since we are discussing Centering of WCK,

The first few moves of SLT until the settle of YJKYM has both the basic of the WCK Centering technology the ---- Shen( alernet) Gung and Qi (breathing) Gung with the spine/ limb awareness work.

from there one then know how to manage the Nim (thought) and Yee (intention)... syncronize with the body and breathing. Three is one. mind/breathing/body.

That is a process similar to the auto-calibration of computer system before it started.

There one sense one's "reference point" or center and calibrate or fine tune.
So, when ever one off too far, one knows how and where to get back. while doing sets, chi sau, or fighting. or even in daily live.

So, instead of saying this is good or bad or old or new. which is not the issue at all.

My bottom line is clear. IMHO, WCK has the centering technology. this technogy might be evolving to become better, might be die off, might be... that is ok. the point is there is a calibration process embeded.

Thus this will later link up with the 3 levels of attainment and power issuing...etc.



There are two major component for the "centering" before one can issue power.


Structure: breathing/physical body centering

A, static structure define good structure with rooting.

B, Dynamic structure has two core components. it is like the abstract algebra. the two components are very flexflow type of stuffs. That is the 1, resultant structure and 2 resultant force, at every instant. this is a 2nd level attainment. it deal with momentum. here every details of force or structure components are identified clearly.


Alertness: Breathing/consciousness centering

A, static relaxation such as in meditation

B, dynamic flex flow alertness

The dynamic flex flow alertness where it flows with the condition or situation without getting stuck but always alert. this is the one which link to Chan directly. As we heard in the Book Unfletter mind ... the L J's kuen kuit, or the Mas Oyama's article. --- the key engine for the 3rd level. it deal with energy. Here, those term like Nim, Yee, Shen, .... are identified clearly.


So, some might like this some might not. that is fine. There are lots of answers to a question. But, I believe WCK do have a process of centering which will deliver.

As for will everyone will be Mohamat Ali or Bruce Lee.... or Gracie.... or how the monkey king in the monkey travel west better or worst then Andy Hug... that is not the point.

Can an ordinary person like me after training with the process end up being more center and balance? that is the question to ask, right?

[PaulH]

Okay, how do you answer your own original questions from this given info?

[Ernie]

paul
Okay, how do you answer your own original questions from this given info?

i'm still wating for my answer on how all this information from the past has improved his skill
what training mehtods do you use
what facts support growth if any

don't really care about master bull guy or old dead wing chun guy stories

how are you and yours pulling it off today and when can i visit to check it out

you are more then welcome to demo on me

i am a feel to appreciate guy :D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Okay, how do you answer your own original questions from this given info?


How do you center yourself when you face an aggressor or a grappler or a thai boxer?

You dont face you are doing a non subjective observation.



how do you calm your mind without having a black out or freeze?

centering by return to the non subjective observation, giving up the attachment to the thought stream and sensation, and Breath away the blockage.



how do you slow down you heart rate to not being accelerate unneccesary?

use your non subjective observation to identify if there is an issue of lossing sensory alertness or trap into a thoughts loop or spiral into the niem or thoughts.

use the skill attained from your daily training in deep diaphramatic/spine related breathing with that familiar 8 breath or lower rate per minunes attaiment, to adaptively and dynamicly adjust yourself. Breath to regulate.



how do you get ready for your physical posture/ structure?

use your non subjective observation to sense the resultant structure and resultant force of the body and limbs and auto calibrate as the everyday practice or training.




how do you balance or centering to stay in the best condition you can?

with both the mind/breathing/body within the process of centering feed back loop via non subjective observation alertness.



How do you make sure your are ready for whatever is coming your way?


use non subjective observation without pre-set expectation or projection. so deal with what comes as it needs to be.



---------------

Thus I have heard from the Zen people

and, non subjective observation is no-self in zen. Once's one get trap in subjective experience and trap within the sensation and the thought spiral. one is out of control.

Ofcorse there is training for this non subjective observation. And that is the Training of Chan or Zen, the listerning to the silence the search of what is one's original face before once's parents were born....
There one can identify the Nim (thoughts) Yee (intention) Shen (alertness) .
With subjective observation and experience one will get trap and loop within Nim and stuck with sensation. or stuck int the mind continous flow's scenerio with past and future but a non existing now (when we talk about now, it has already past) or cannot live in this instant.

Ofcorse it is not a simple or easy things to achieve and there are levels and levels of states. But there are some people has it. Such as Mas Oyama or the Shao Lin's Zen and martial art is one or the L J's no self no end no boundry....or Osense of Aikido or Wang Xiang-Zai.... contious to who ever have it today.

But then with those attainment why still one fight for Greed, hatre, or ignorance? those greed, hatre, ignorance, win, title are illusion of stuck in the subjective experience.


hahahaha, Pual, So you know the biggest cheating in the world? we all trap by Damo . once one realized and attain that far one will not come back and fight. Damo trick people by promising the Chan chan chan can give one an advance martial art. But when one get there, one no longer use martial art for that winning. :D

I warn you here. hehehehe, once you realize it life has to chance and the way you are in the past has to go. hahahaha :D

[anerlich]

for Chinese or Japanese who practice Zen or Chan, L J or Mas Oyama it is obvious.

I agree it would be obvious to any reader of any language, of any era, and any MA background, that it was bad poetry which hides rather than elucidates meaning.


BTW, the first is still a partial description without a training methodology.

At least it is a description, partial or otherwise, rather than a bunch of deep-sounding platitudes which can mean anything and nothing to anybody.

The Scott Sonnon videos I mentioned earlier include training methodologies related to this subject. The limitations of this medium and my own laziness prevent its detailed elucidation here, but if you are interested it is available. So, your criticism is invalid.

Quid pro quo - what is the training methodology for the attributes and qualities you claim your dead poet's society espouses?



Can an ordinary person like me after training with the process end up being more center and balance? that is the question to ask, right?

Yeah, what Paul said, do you have an answer? Or at least an opinion?


That is a process similar to the auto-calibration of computer system before it started.

Oh, no, the inappropriate computer analogies again. The computer needs to be started FIRST before it can autocalibrate, not after. Bringing computers into the discussion does not make your arguments any more valid, only shows you need to understand computers better.

[Ernie]

Thus I have heard from the Zen people


i rest my case again nothing valid , no first hand experience , were are the results and training mehtod today with you as an individual or students you train or have trained

just mumbo jumbo till proven in todays training with real regular people
there must be a high consistancy of results or else just more hot air


more fortune cookie no mindedness with intent blah blah

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Ernie
Thus I have heard from the Zen people


i rest my case again nothing valid , no first hand experience , wer


more fortune cookie no mindedness with intent blah blah


hahahaha, sure sure,

Oyama, Osense, Wang Xiang-Zai, L J.... are not real ...

As you love to think as you like it :D
it is a free world isnt it? how wonderfull is it for fantasy?



first hand experience? heheheh :D
-------------------
While fighting, you stand facing your opponent. When the opponent attacks, you must quickly determine an attack is coming, what form it will take, where it is aimed, etc. All of this information must be relayed to the brain, where the decision is made about how to react. The brain must send a message to the body, telling it how to defend itself. This entire process takes only a fraction of a second, but what if the incoming attack is a fraction of a second faster?

If, on the other hand, you are in a Zen state while in combat, you perceive not the individual attack, but the entire situation. Your mind and body act as one, bypassing the normal reaction time to automatically perform the necessary defense measure. The normal thought process in an attack is: perception, contemplation and, finally, reaction. With Zen, you can bypass the contemplation phase and react directly after perception. Oyama, having realized this, has gone so far as to say "Karate is Zen,"


--------------- Mas Oyama. is this the guy who sell Kyokushin fortune cookies. :D

[PaulH]

Whatever one makes of Hendrik's latest post, the given answers are detailed and intelligent. Of course they may not be meaningful to one's set of expected criteria of what good answers ought to be, but they are sincere and honest answers from a sharing heart. For that I thank you. Perhaps when we meet each other again, one will feel and touch what one hitherto only hears from the dark tales of cyberspace. =)

Regards,
PH

[Phenix]

Hello Paul,

Thank you.

and ofcorse I share what I know and whether one looks at it as jewels or fortune cookies is up to one.


I am flying out to transivania for weeks to learn from those fortune cookies guys. :D


So, see you and bye for now.


Pual, without the capability of the 8 or slower per minutes deep breathing (must not force slow, it creates problem) and how to deal with alertness. One cannot get into the alter state of Shen Kung or Qi Gung. or the entering states of Zhang Zhuang or Yee Chuan.

Space is about alertness. Time is about thoughts stream.
But one has to get there to realize what is what first hand.

once get there, atleast one will be able to center oneself better in daily life. and blood pressure will improve.
http://w156.z066088179.was-dc.dsl.cnc.net/news/July/Articles_July1702d.htm

get one of these to start simple training
http://www.scantechmedical.com/resperate.htm
http://www.resperate.com/resperate/video/nbcHr.html

with more and more high tech machine, we can verify lots of old teaching in a safe and effective way.

welcome to another part of SLT. :D

Certainly, one can still called that first hand high tech fortune cookies. :D

remember what I said? hahahaha

---------------------------------
how do you slow down you heart rate to not being accelerate unneccesary?

use your non subjective observation to identify if there is an issue of lossing sensory alertness or trap into a thoughts loop or spiral into the niem or thoughts.

use the skill attained from your daily training in deep diaphramatic/spine related breathing with that familiar 8 breath or lower rate per minunes attaiment, to adaptively and dynamicly adjust yourself. Breath to regulate.

[anerlich]

but what if the incoming attack is a fraction of a second faster?

You get hit.


With Zen, you can bypass the contemplation phase and react directly after perception.

And you still might get hit. Your chances of getting hit or losing do not vanish to zero becuase of a 3 letter word.

We've had this discussion before (probably several hundred times). Why do you keep raising the same subjects over and over?

I agree that preconscious processing avoids the slowness of cognition, but you don't need Zen, Oyama, Leung Jan, or any other magic words or revered ancestors to achieve it.

You did the same thing when you learned to walk, drive a car, skate, surf. It started off being a highly concious activity, but as familiarity increased you hardly had to think any more, just react.

To reach true efficiency you have to leave the concepts, models and aphorisms behind, especially that of Zen.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by anerlich


To reach true efficiency you have to leave the concepts, models and aphorisms behind, especially that of Zen.

sure, tell that to Mas Oyama. :D

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix
you can use your own language to explain in details, from Yoga to modern science to..... to black magic, any terms to explain your process of achieving center ----Jung. :D

If Jung sees this forum, he would probably say something like this: "For hundreds of times, Phenix raises his Zen questions. Yet every single time, he is surrounded by heated arguments from all directions. People seem to enjoy challenging the guy, quoting their favourite furtune cookie wisdom advice as passed down to them by their masters or grandmasters. There is no shortage of arguments against Phenix. This tells me people are unconsciously very fond of these Zen talks, however, they are consciously supressing it. Arguing with Phenix help them realize their unconscious contents, help them stay in touch with their true enemy within (Dracula? no).

So if Jung were to help you balance youself, he would suggest you draw mandala pictures daily. Draw them in whatever way that pleases you.

And I see mandala pictures everytime I see your threads Hendrik, LOL!

I am full of zhit, ain't I? :D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yylee



And I see mandala pictures everytime I see your threads Hendrik, LOL!



YY,

There is only two ways to put Zen in your mind. Either makes you love it so much that you always remember it or makes you hate it so much that you always against it.

Then, when time is right. It will bloom or explode within you. hehehehe

There is no escape and I dope you again and again. :D

and the problem with the Zen stuff is that it is like an olive, the more you chew it the sweat it becomes. So, hahahahah. NO ESCAPE! once you realized about it. there is no turn back. hehehehehe. Who taste the blood of dracula can live as usual anymore? NONE! hehhehehehehehe

So you better avoid me!

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix


Then, when time is right. It will bloom or explode within you. hehehehe

There is no escape and I dope you again and again. :D

So you better avoid me!

me, dope me? retain what comes right? why avoid?

watch out you better run when Akira explodes!! :D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Bob8
I think Ernie and Hendrik would get along real good
if they met in real live. Hendrik his way of writing
is chan-like and from a different culture so for
most hard to follow.

Hendrik has fought full-contact so I think he can
fight, Ernie. Sounds like a Scholar-fighter hehe


You mean this ernie? hahahahaha he is my twin brother. Like Van Helsing and count dracula. and it is ok to argue to the hell hehehe

fight? I sell high tech fortune cookies or those parasite which hidden in your computer and somedays it bloom.

I missed the Kyokushin K1 sparing because I dont have to hold back, I dont have to act this way or that way. I dont have to show tan sau to please you that I am WCner. ... believe it or not.:mad:

to have to show this sau and that sau and have to win all the time is just tooo stuffy. I like the oyama way explor the limitation and explore how one feel in the most weakess link. similar to try to get take down or.... etc. and see now I even experiment with all the high tech garget to have that first hand experience :D


But then all of that is personal choice and everything has to base on centering. and grow from center.


BTW. I found a way to test the VWHW energy issuing lately . now things should be able to be synthesis fairy straight forward. thanks to high tech

[kj]

Excellent and direct responses by desertwingchun and mckind13. Hendrik, I also like your post where you finally link back to Wing Chun, re "Since we are discussing Centering of WCK...". Thanks to each of you guys for an unusually thoughtful read in those posts, and especially for framing them within a Wing Chun context!

OJ is correct as per usual ... even in this dialog, the real answer seems to lie somewhere between extremes of discussion. I have a hunch that beneath it all, there is more in common between Hendrik's Zen and Anerlich's "Flow state performance spiral" references than meets the eye.

Aside from the obvious difference in descriptive models, Anerlich and others seem to talk much more about the importance of progressive intensity/challenge in training than Hendrik does.

Thus my clarifying question for Hendrik:

What do you feel is the importance (or not) of progressive training for purposes of testing or improving one's capabilities and attributes for this so-described "centering"? For example, do you feel that increasing the intensity of training is valuable or important for improving martial performance, or do you feel that bio-feedback and introspection are enough?

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Ernie]

Oyama, Osense, Wang Xiang-Zai, L J.... are not real

never said that

just pointing out , that what 1 or 2 people can do is meaningless unless it can be can be done by many ,

also saying what another man can do , hideing behind others words or ideas is also meaningless

what can you do ? how do you train and develop it ? how are you improving today ?

who have you taught , what method did you use

you see keep things simple and honest were results can be tested and refined

beyond that just pretty words with out purpose , no testing on a personal level , no first hand experience

then how can it be talken seriously

talking is easy

scholars kill fighting arts , with many empty words and no first hand experience

just back seat driver observations

thus scholars become teachers and another watered down generation is born

sad:(

[KingMonkey]

Ho hum.

Relaxed and calm when a real fight is on ?
Kind of like Mr Miyagi in the karate kid or Li Mu bai in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon ?
This zen master in the face of a violent attack crap is best left in the movies.

I'd prefer to work on dialling into my rage and fear, of course this should be channelled to an extent, but even blind rage is likely to work out better in the end than f*cking your mental game by having unrealistic expectations.

[Da_Moose]

Let's see, how do I turn off my emotions asks Hendrik?

I forgot to mention that I am an android and can readily disable my emotional circuit when needs be!

Just kidding, I guess 'turn off' is not the most accurate way to describe what happens, but it is the simplest. I don't turn my emotions off in an encounter, I keep them in check. I ignore what they tell me becasue if I follow them in a fight, I can become overhwelmed by their power and that can get me into trouble. If I get hit, I can't respond by thinkin "I'm gonna wallop you now *******", otherwise I'm trapped in the past and can be hit again in the present. My center is not in the here and now as a result of such thinking. If I get hit, its a reality check that my space was not covered at the right time. Dwell on it later, not during the encounter. Later, when I'm relaxing, I can afford to dwell on the situation, but who should get emotional on? The attacker for getting a hit or two in? No, on myself for not having properly covered my space. But instead of wasting energy by getting angry, I analyze and learn from the situation as objectively as possible. Now, there are also time when I am l more prone to emotional dwelling on the encounter, but hey, I'm human!

" There no needs a scenario. IMHO

human mind/breathing/body is not linear of static. It is a dynamic flow. Centering IMHO has to aware of this dynamic flow. and A martial artist has to know and be able to some degree compensate this dynamic flow before even engage. "
OK, I think I get your point. You just wanted to know how we all deal with the initial response of being confronted, yes?

"Space is about alertness. Time is about thoughts stream.
But one has to get there to realize what is what first hand"
Hendrik, this is interesting, can you elaborate your understanding / meaning a bit please?
To me, space is about structure and positioning which provide that alertness you talk about. Time is nothing more than space & energy. More space = more time/energy, less space = less time/energy. Thoughts to me are about energy, not time. If I waste energy thinking in a fight, my center can be broken. I need to focus my awareness/alertness on my center, but not dwell on it. I should feel it.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by kj



OJ is correct as per usual ... even in this dialog, the real answer seems to lie somewhere between extremes of discussion. I have a hunch that beneath it all, there is more in common between Hendrik's Zen and Anerlich's "Flow state performance spiral" references than meets the eye. ...



Thus my clarifying question for Hendrik:

What do you feel is the importance (or not) of progressive training for purposes of testing or improving one's capabilities and attributes for this so-described "centering"?


For example, do you feel that increasing the intensity of training is valuable or important for improving martial performance, or do you feel that bio-feedback and introspection are enough?





Hi KJ,


the Chinese model /catagolized the martial art into a body and an application. They are inseperatable. each of them has thier place to support each other.
furthermore, there are a realization and a practice. these two also are inseperatable.

so,

without the realization of the "body" there is no "center" to be based. thus, one usually end up with a collective of a scatering technics.

wihout the practice of transcending the body into the application. one will not be able to apply the art.



For example,
the taichi classic said " after one realized the nature of the Jing (power), one get more fluent every time one transcent into the practice, until one achive the "as one likes it."

so, one has to realize the body of the Jing before transcent that jing nature realization into the daily applications. and later become all is one and one is all ---"as one likes it".



also, thus, say the Zen.
after one attained or realize the state of immovable wisdom, a non subjective experience observation, from Zen sitting or standing practice , one has to bring that "realization/attainement" into daily living to transcent everyday's living.

the process of transcent is not complete until daily living be it awaken or a sleep are transcent.

Thus, one uses that realization or attainment as the catalist (sp?) or seed to transcent everyday living. and the rate of totally transcent depend on how sharp or clear one's attainment on the "state" . and one might face obstrucle while in the process of transcent and flip back and forth...etc. Thus, those Zen masters even after the realization still working to transcent thier habit, thier interaction with others.... not a one short zap and everything done deal for most.

it is said, before enlightement, chop wood and carry water, after enlightement, chop wood and carry water. however the chop wood and carry water after the enlightement is a vehicle used for transcent.



So, the path of Zen or Taiji or Daoist is about one has to realize the core/body/nature and then one uses that core/nature/body to transcent. the real practice only comes after the realization.

Say, Mas Oyama, he went to the mountain twice. and if you read his profile. he certainly has some realization before he will to the mountain for his transcent training. otherwise, it will be too boring stay up there punching trees, meditate under water fall, and jumping thousand of times over the needle like bushes.
not everyone punching, meditate, jumping becomes oyama. he was up there without away from others with only his books .... but when he comes down from the mountain he turn into undefeatable "god hand" one thing forsure, as in zen he strech is limit to the ultimate instead of worry about other. if he doesnt perform it doesnt matter who or what style he fight.

Say, Wang Xiang Zai of Yee Chuan, he went travelling around the china to meet different masters. if he doesnt have that realization, there is no way he has the confident to do it. and ofcorse that travelling of meeting others is also a process of his transcent. now, did he win all the challenge? no, there are higher mountains.


So, my view is everything has it time.
and I emphasis about the body or realization here to stress the important of the realization so that one doesnt end up with a scatering collection of data. which is not center at all.

it is from this angle I drive in. In other post I might take the angle of progressive training for purposes of testing or improving one's capabilities to drive in.



---------------------------

I agree with the not look direct into the object or the 10degree offset but I dont think that is the ultimate and it still has a problem with the implementation. because "the mind needs to direct and process something in certain way." with that it is a strong dependant process. thus, one uses try. try means conditional. IMHO

if one practice Zen and listern to the silence, a process of NOT directing mind, or not use mind to process, or let go the thought and stay with the nature effortless alertness one will hear every sound and not get trap with one.

Try that in the movie theather. no matter how loud the sound, listern to the silence between all the sounds. and see how one centered naturally within all the sounds where not listerning but all sound reveal.
But once one pay attention only to the conversation or music, one got suck in and one will cry, laught, .... carry away by the drama.


in the time of stress, or even sleepy time, any training with "the mind needs to direct and process something in certain way." will work conditionly because it subject to influence by the physical and emotion.


Now ofcorse, the satori Zen master or the Taiji master who has realize the nature of the power has to "chop wood and carry water" everyday every instant to complete the total transcent transformation. until then Dong Jing or realize the nature of the power is the the first step for real practice. if one cant have a under 8 breath per minute breathing all qi gong doesnt work.


IT is not an easy subject. I bring up breathing for body/emotion influence, Zen for mind management...etc. I bring it up because IMHO WCK might soon become a scatering collective of application data which might not be able fit in one pice.
if we dont watch out what is what.

There is a reason L J and all those ancestors said " using silence to subdue action" using silence is using non action, using silence is not rely on the logical proccesing.....
They know and attained something we dont know to conclude or sumary thier art one for all and all become one. thus, they never have fear of unedequate.

listern listern dont process with mind. listern listern KJ. :D

Once one listern and process with one's mind, one grasp the sensation or the thought products produce by that thinking or thought patern and the senario based on our bias spiral down. we grasp our own mind and we become bias. Siu Niem Tau right? dont think soooo much. hahahaha. listern listern..... the key is there. we dont have to use the 10degree or 20 degree rule for looking we by passed that and not get latch into ...:D

Just my opinion ofcorse.


so tomorrow I will start nother topic with progressive training for purposes of testing or improving .... to speak the same language with my twin brothers. :D
hey everything is ok. :D

dont mistaken me. and I am going to airport soon. hehehehe

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Da_Moose



"Space is about alertness. Time is about thoughts stream.
But one has to get there to realize what is what first hand"
Hendrik, this is interesting, can you elaborate your understanding / meaning a bit please?
To me, space is about structure and positioning which provide that alertness you talk about. Time is nothing more than space & energy. More space = more time/energy, less space = less time/energy. Thoughts to me are about energy, not time. If I waste energy thinking in a fight, my center can be broken. I need to focus my awareness/alertness on my center, but not dwell on it. I should feel it.


Steve,

very quick before I turn Van helsing or Dracula.

if one lost one alertness everything is gone wild.

in a tunner vision state or lost of sensory alerness or bias emotional...... etc. all the time, space, structure, logic, ... all has different meaning.

the alertness is the platform the based the center the gps.

time, space, structure has to based on alertness. thus if one dont keep one's nature alertness or know what it is about ... those time, space, structure has no based.


in Zen there is saying about beating the cart or beating the horse. stuck in the time, space, structure, logic... ideas are beating the cart. it will go no where.

Get your breathing down to 8 breath per min or less. then start from there..... not using this thinking and reasoning mind. it doesnt work because we all have a bias thinking patern. and life doesnt follow our bias no matter how logical it is.

Juen Shan is related to the conscious skandal. that is not the effortless nature alertness of Zen. but throught out the history of china, people oftern mistaken it. Thus, one needs a Zen patriach to verify the attainment. does one see one's original face to begin with.

There is objective silence and subjective silence. and silence are space.....
no matter how noisy the resorant if you have your alertness you always in subjective silence and always be able to identify the objective silence between sounds and there are spacia (sp?).

once you use your mind and spiral in the thought. you lost it. you are in a noisy restorant and pressure by the sounds...your logic cant do much about it. that is the begining of entering the suffering as said in buddism. graps the own mind and illusive become real for one... you have eaten the apple from the smart snake. :D


just some thought.

[kj]

Originally posted by Phenix
So, my view is everything has it time.

Thanks Hendrik. This is the missing link I was looking for.


listern listern dont process with mind. listern listern KJ. :D

I am indeed working on the listening aspects. Always.

I agree with the "don't process with mind" piece for application. Developing an efficient and virtual instinct, rather than reliance on analytical thought, is central to the precepts of Wing Chun, no?

I do have a bit of trouble embracing a "don't process with the mind" concept for learning though. Hmmm .... perhaps the blurred distinction between training methods and unfettered application is part of the dilemma in the ongoing debates.

Regards,
- kj

[Phenix]

Originally posted by kj


Hmmm .... perhaps the blurred distinction between training methods and unfettered application is part of the dilemma in the ongoing debates.

Regards,
- kj

there is no unfeltted application without an unfeltted mind.

Take a look at that book --- the unflettered mind.
:D


As the old saying said, one cannot polished bricks to make mirror.
one got to find that glass.

you know that slight worried of letting go the conscious thinking mind keep us all within our secure domain. we need to strect it and the conscious thinking mind got to go....


bye now, got to fly! hahahhaa

[anerlich]

sure, tell that to Mas Oyama.

I can't, he's dead. :rolleyes:

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Kathy Jo,
I found this link for you.
http://members.aol.com/braxton1/bookpreview.html

Phil

[PaulH]

The problem of balance between MA theory and body application varies with each unique student. So if the coach emphasizes too much on theories, he runs into the danger of choking the individual growth and combative experience. Buiding courage and self-confidence are often found in actual fields of combat. On the other hand if he emphasizes too much on realistic application, the student tends to lose sight of the core values becoming too complicated in his attempts to cope with diverse outside factors. Throw an egg against the wall, the unyielding surface will break its fragile shell. No hollow drum ever stops the dagger from pearcing through by its sound and fury.

Regards,
PH

[Phenix]

Nothing theoritical at all. It is just plain simple.

If one cannot center one's body, then one cannot deal with mind. if one cannot deal with mind, the rest--- time, space, speed...... is just un manageble.

If one cannot center in daily life one cannot do it in emegency.

What kind of combative experience are there with uncenter/manageble excited body and mind without centering? -----------A random chance taking experience.





A drunk driver might argue the best way to learn driving is driving while drunk to gain real life driving experience. But is that true?

why not get to the not drunk state and learn how to drive properly?


Next time when you get anxious or mad, see if you can center yourself back. if not there goes your combative experience, un reliable because your combative experience will be totally changes by your unable to center.

Believe it or not. centering is a skill. Jung is not only about the center line of others or the immovable elbow. it is more important that one has a body/mind center gravity of its own where it always by default stays there.


I watched Van Helsing in Budapest. and in one of the scene, Count dracula said while he meets others he can hear the heart beat going from Pump Pump---------------- Pump Pump to non interval pump pump pump pump....... and Van Helsing's always stay the same interval. I guess that is about centering.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
The problem of balance between MA theory and body application varies with each unique student. So if the coach emphasizes too much on theories, he runs into the danger of choking the individual growth and combative experience. Buiding courage and self-confidence are often found in actual fields of combat. On the other hand if he emphasizes too much on realistic application, the student tends to lose sight of the core values becoming too complicated in his attempts to cope with diverse outside factors. Throw an egg against the wall, the unyielding surface will break its fragile shell. No hollow drum ever stops the dagger from pearcing through by its sound and fury.

Regards,
PH



great theoretical speculation!

[kj]

Originally posted by Phenix
...

If one cannot center in daily life one cannot do it in emegency.

Sometimes your writing is a bit too ethereal for me to catch, but this particular suite of metaphors hit the mark, Hendrik.


...

A drunk driver might argue the best way to learn driving is driving while drunk to gain real life driving experience. But is that true?


Well put.

Still, once one gains some ability to "center" under normal circumstances, one may wish to do some verification to see how effectively the developing skills transfer to more stressful situations.

In the case of the person who wishes to master drunken driving, hopefully they will elect to undertake such verification under reasonably controlled circumstances like an obstacle course. Testing on the open road poses undue risk of real damage to themselves and others. Especially if the endeavor has a safety related motivation, rather than the daredevil's thrill. [And provided we don't take the drunk driving metaphor too literally here! :p]

Interestingly, "centering" may be antithetical to the purposes of the daredevil or thrill seeker. And so in driving as in Wing Chun, birds of a feather will flock together.


... he can hear the heart beat going from Pump Pump---------------- Pump Pump to non interval pump pump pump pump....... and Van Helsing's always stay the same interval.

Finally I "get" one of the Van Helsing references. :p

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Phenix]

Originally posted by kj


Interestingly, "centering" may be antithetical to the purposes of the daredevil or thrill seeker. And so in driving as in Wing Chun, birds of a feather will flock together.


[/B]


There is no daredevil but a great centering with lots of great skill experience. with calculate risk taking :D

as for drunk driving, under toxic influence or an excited body, there is only plain risk taking and no one will know what is the outcome.

Since one cannot control one's environement. to be able to centering is the first important step of dealing with uncertainty but not go direct to sparing. Get the centering first then sparing. otherwise, it is a drunk driving. have you meet people who is great in thier own Kwon but a dissaster while visiting other kwon or school or facing unfamiliar style? ya ya lack of centering.

[kj]

Originally posted by Phenix
as for drunk driving, under toxic influence or an excited body, there is only plain risk taking and no one will know what is the outcome.

Dang. I told you not to take the drunk driving metaphor too far! :D


have you meet people who is great in thier own Kwon but a dissaster while visiting other kwon or school or facing unfamiliar style? ya ya lack of centering.

Happens to many, if not most of us at times. Unknown risks are natural heartbeat accelerators.

Regards,
- kj

[kj]

Originally posted by Phenix

There is no daredevil but a great centering with lots of great skill experience. with calculate risk taking :D

I don't know about this. I do think there are some people who enjoy thrill for it's own sake. Some would be disappointed with a consistent and unwavering heartbeat and the other physiological responses associated with the rush of danger. While most of us would wish in common to operate effectively through such physiological changes, I don't presume everyone would wish that so-called "hormone cocktail" away.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Phenix]

Originally posted by kj


I don't know about this. I do think there are some people who enjoy thrill for it's own sake. Some would be disappointed with a consistent and unwavering heartbeat and the other physiological responses associated with the rush of danger.

While most of us would wish in common to operate effectively through such physiological changes, I don't presume everyone would wish that so-called "hormone cocktail" away.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo


You are right! :D

[PaulH]

Hendrik,

You seems five at Budapest! =)

4 9 2
3 5 7
8 1 6

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

You seems five at Budapest! =)

4 9 2
3 5 7
8 1 6


I read 4 6, 8 2, 7 3, 9 1, and always know 5 is there. :D

[PaulH]

All right! Give me five, Hendrik! =)

[yylee]

you see anything here Hendrik? :D

http://www.buddhanet.net/images/smandala.jpg