What do you think of this program?

[IronFist]

Westside training for skinny *******s (http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/311west.jsp) or something like that.

I guess it looks ok, but it's too general for me. Those of you who have talked to me know that I like every rep of every set planned out and every rest period planned out into quantifiable, exact units. I do not like "Work up to 3 sets of 10-15 reps." What does "work up to" mean? Does that mean start with a couple sets and then do the 3 real sets? Does that mean do 2 sets first? 5 sets first? Does it mean work up to 3 sets over a couple weeks? And I don't like "10-15" reps. How many are you supposed to do? 10? 11? 12? 13? 14? or 15?

Anyway tho, aside from being anal about that stuff, I might incorporate some aspects of that program into my next program.

Or I may stop being anal for a few weeks and try it.

But anyway, check it out, if for no other reason than to see the pic of the kid with the 37" vertical leap!

[Toby]

Mmm, nice jump. But the article was too long for my lazy ass. I just skimmed it. Being a competitive male, I would push myself, so if he said "work up to ..." I would just start doing the max i.e. 3 sets of 15 reps. At least I'd try to :p.

[Ford Prefect]

Iron,

They are trying to get you to train by feel rather than a rote plan that needs to be adhered to. Working up to 3 sets of 10-15 means to start lifting a light weight that you can do 10-15 reps with easily. Keep increasing the weight until your last 3 sets are near failure.

[IronFist]

So far I've made much better progress by quantifying everything than by lifting "by feel."

However, I may give some of that stuff a try.

Oh man I've got a lot of ideas in my head right now. Of course I'll run them by the board at some point in the future.

But not now cuz my gym closes in 50 minutes and I gotta go squat!

[Ford Prefect]

Dunno, Iron. That's how all the best lifters train. I remember a post you made about how you hate watching guys in the gym with bad form and really no program make more porgress than you. Those guys are probably making progress because they are pushing themselves to their limits every workout. The greater the stimulus; the greater the adaption. I never made as much progress until I left routines, %'s of my 1RM, periodization schemes, etc behind.

[IronFist]

Dunno, Iron. That's how all the best lifters train.

You mean the Westside guys? Remember that you have to already be elite before they'll even let you train with them. So just because everyone at their gym is awesome does not necessarily mean they have the best training techniques.

[Ford Prefect]

Nope. I'm talking almost every single person I've read and talked to. Dave Tate (westside), Mel Siff, Vladamir Zatsiorsky, Christian Thibadeau, Bill Starr, Charles Poliquin, Ian King, Yessis, etc. Heck, even Arnold Shwatzenegger talks about "instinctive training" in his bb'ing encyclopedia. I'm also talking about personal experience.

Set programs are good and completely necessary at a fundemental level. They intro you to various lifts, principles, and methods while you are starting out, and they guarantee you make some level of progress. As you advance and become more experienced with various modes of training and their effect on your body, then you should start to guage what your body is actually telling you. Even at advanced levels you should still have a plan, but nothing that needs to be strictly adhered to. Your own body and experience are what will tell what you need to do rather than some set in stone program telling you have to do x on day y and rest z between sets.

[IronFist]

I used to train more "instinctively" when I first started. I made newbie gains, but that had more to do with newbie gains by definition than it did with my instinctive training approach.

Maybe I'll look into it.

But I think with my demeanor, 100% instinctive training would get lazier and lazier every week until it faded into nothing.

That or I would severly overtrain. Actually now that I think about it, I think overtraining would be a problem within the first 2 weeks if I were to go instinctively.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Those guys are probably making progress because they are pushing themselves to their limits every workout. The greater the stimulus; the greater the adaption.

I thought that going to your limit (ie. failure) every workout was bad? Don't you need to cycle things?

[Ford Prefect]

I'm not saying just go to the gym all willy-nilly and decide on the spot what to do. You always need a plan, but going as far as planning every set, every rep, every %1RM, every rest period is like a wearing a pair of shackles. I always know what parts of my body I'm going to be hitting on a specific day. I usually plan ahead sets and reps too. Frequently, I'll modify the sets/reps, exercises, or order of exercises depending on what I feel I need to do. Much less frequently, I'll throw everything out the window and do something radically different than what I have planned.

It's definately not something the newb should do, but you're more experienced now. It's a little frusterating at first trying to figure out exactly what your body is telling you and you may even regress a little, but in the long run it's completely worth it.

About cycling failure etc, that's part of listenning to your body and your goals. Definately need to cycle in order to continue making optimal progress. However you can still make progress without cycling. Sometimes I feel that a lot of knowledge hampers us more than it helps. Guys that have no idea about overtraining, periodization, the relative "heavyness" of a weight, etc can sometimes make better progress because they don't have these mental barriers holding them back.