Origins of 7*

[Tainan Mantis]

Who was the first person to use 7* in relationship to PM is nothing but conjecture.
But looking at the available facts may lead us to some interesting conclusions.

First of all, the absolute first time that the term 7*fist is mentioned is in General Chi's Chuen Jing.
A book on empty hand pugilism from the Ming(1368-1644) dynasty.

This contains one of the earliest refernces to Song Taidzu's Longfist.
It includes 24 diagrams and explanations which can best be described as abstract.

Though, many believe this Song Taidzu fist to date to the first emperor of the Song dynasty nealy 500 yearts prior to Chi I don't think so for reasons I won't go into now.

What is important is that;
1. there is little doubt that General Chi included this form and fighting method in part of his military training
2. The sonnet of 18 families in Mantis lists "Song Taidzu's Longfist as the first"
Or we could say most important.

As an interesting side note a lot of work has been done by the Chen family Taji people to show how their style is closley related to if not the same form as the one described by General Chi.

I have spent time trying to accumulate this evidence and what I have seen so far is FAR from conclusive, though a relationship is certain, just how close is hard to determine.

The writing style used for this Longfist manuscript is completely different from any PM manuscript I have ever seen and no relationship can be found in style, choice of grammer or technique names except for the single one called 7* fist.

Here is what General Chi said,

"The hands and feet of 7* compliment each other.
When closing the distance move the lantern up and down.
Even though others have fast hands and feet like the wind.
I can still rush in with heavy cleaving."

There are several things that strike me as relating closley to the PM I have learned.
1. In the first line, not only do the hands and feet have to work together, which is actually so obviuos I wonder why he bothered to say it, but they both have a similar bent shape which resembles the 7* constellation.
This is of course, my personal conjecture, but in our "Chuen Zi" 2 man fighting our body is in the same posture as the picture.

2. Here the lantern refers to a posture of holding a stick with a lantern tied to the end.
Imagine someone moving this lantern stick up and down and we see how the hands move up and down as we square off to fight.
This happens as we are moving towards our opponnent.

This is an extremey strange type of walk in our PM where the front heel creeps forward and the hands move up and down as the body prepares to attack.

It is not in any of the vid clips I showed, because you might think I was cracked if you saw it.
And yet it seems to me to be extremely effective for approaching the enemy.
Something like this exists in the beginning of duo gang.

I have no solid connection between the 7* fist of General Chi except that his long fist form is supposedly the first of Mantis and some similariteis in description between our fighting method and his abstract and archaic descriptions.

What I would like to know is who can show a clear line of training of Genearal Chi's form and modern mantis?

[B.Tunks]

Tainan,

>What I would like to know is who can show a clear line of >training of General Chi's form and modern mantis?

Nobody in here, I presume (including myself). From what I have seen with my own eyes, everything pre 150 years ago is thick grey mist.

Another (cynical) aspect is that a lot of the links in the various extant branches of Tanglang, to ancient boxing theory, methodology and numerology (see 108's post), were made much later and connected retrospectively. Hence many similarities to manuscripts from largely unrelated systems that are almost unjustifiably a part of the theory of Tanglang today (unjustifiable= unapplicable, lacking in unambiguous concrete physical examples from within the body of the art etc). Yes, many things have been forgotten and once were a vital part of the system but others have always been paid nothing more than lip service and were/are in many instances completely dismissed.
Most of the great masters of Mantis Boxing were illiterate and couldnt even understand the manuscripts they had, if they even had any. I was told by a very famous master in China that Tanglang is always rewriting its own history. From my own experiences, I agree with this.

BT

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Brendan,
About retrospective connections.
Eg(from my imagination), Yu Dayou famous General of the Ming dynasty wrote about 8 Hard and 12 soft(the guy who influenced Chi Jiguang) in his stick fighting.

The book was so awesome that someone adopted it into PM and so that is how we have it in PM.
So the guy who was writing the 8 hard 12 soft for PM had to find which techniques would fit where.
If he had 7 hard he had to add an extra.

I gather this is the type of thing you are saying could have happened.
If so I agree with you 100% and even have something approaching proof.
Which is that the short strikes keyowrds of mantis are the same in a Ching dynasty manuscript on the double whips.

But all the digging around I have done about this Mantis history has shown some of the written roots to be hazy and of doubtful nature it is still a part of old PM that deserves to be researched and not thrown away.

[mantis108]

Very interesting thread indeed. :)

Before addressing the relationship of General Chi's material and Tanglang, I would like to first get to reply Brendan's post for the other thread which I brought over here since it is related. Hope you don't mind.


Numerology and Tanglang
108,

You wrote:

8 and 12 expressions in mantis are not just somethings that are made up. It is the result of deliberate thoughts.

My guess is you would have been fighting nausea over my last article in mantis quarterly, ha ha.

I was more than happy to read your article. It's good food for thoughts. I got to see your down to earth perspective which I appreciate alot. :)


I agree that these numbers mean so much in any chinese art or culture (from daojiao and fojiao to hei shehui and gongfu). They are far from random and are pregnant with meaning. However, is there a possibility that perhaps the numerology coveniently fit the system rather than the system being originally designed to fit to the numerology? Afterall, Chinese numerology has almost every number assigned relevance. Perhaps adherence to such number formulas has even confined or corrupted the system in some instances.

Talk about insights and you are absolutely right! I find this "Perhaps adherence to such number formulas has even confined or corrupted the system in some instances" particularly true with regard to the more modern development of Tanglang styles. Confining is sometimes a necessary evil. It is subject to the teacher's discretion. Corruption, on the other hand, is a different matter. It comes from a misunderstanding and/or incomplete understanding. Corruption is a 2 way street. Both the teacher and the the student are at fault in that case.

I believe learning martial arts of any culture means that inevitably it is about learning the culture of which the MA is originated. That's part of the identity. It would be silly to use numerology as theoretical base to explain MMA, JMA, FMA, etc.. By the same token it is to butcher CMA if the cultural element is to be eliminated. I don't believe martial arts can survived without "art". Otherwise we will all just be brawler and nasty fighters and we'll never be martial artist, stylist, or masters. There's is a difference between animal and human being. ;)


For example; has anyone here noticed an almost riculous or superflous technique or method either added on or doubled up just to make one of these vital totals?

'We have to make the total 12 so lets repeat technique number 4 and slightly change the name',

'We need to end on the 3rd, 5th or 7th and we're one short so lets do the same technique as found in every basic routine of Tanglang and give it a never been used before and never to be used again name to make up the total',

'We're two short of eight so lets repeat the last technique twice',

and so and so forth...

I hear you and this could happen during the process of formalizing a teaching or a system. But the case you pointed out is to me more of about superficial understanding or even misunderstanding of both the culture and the MA especially fighting. To me that is automatic disqualification of mastery. For one thing, such person has not understood the intricate relationship between theory and for lack of a better word "form". In MA, movements are based on principles. These principles can be expressed and communicated with concepts (verbal or written) and/or percepts (physical expirences such as a form). The problem is that most people deal with it as "egg or chicken first" type of question. How do you put a chick back into the egg? That's where the exercise has totally lost it's meaning. So if a "master" really did that then I afraid he's really is no master.


O.K, please pick your self off the ground now if your laughing too hard. Is this not a possibility? I have seen old masters laughing similarly trying to make sense of such material.

I do see the humor in it . :) But I can assure you that trying to make sense of such material could bring a much deeper understanding not just the good but also the bad about our arts while it sounds silly. BTW, we also have to remember that research resources aren't as readily available sometime people just give up on things that sounds weir. But I can't say that I could blame the them. Sometime the snobbery of elitism and small circles of others would turn people off the quest of furthering themselves.


Having spat all this negativity, I do of course acknowledge that some very important number theory did certainly predate the system and were purposely incorporated/imported either at the onset or at least very early on. Which were there from the onset or near enough to it? I cannot say but would speculate that it was the generic 5 elements, 6 harmonies and 7 stars.

Mr conspiracy theory ;-)

I hear you and understand your position. There is no harm to play the devil's edvocate from time to time. Actually, I really appreciate your insights and inputs. I believe you have brought up yet another good subject for disscussion. BTW, I would agree with you on that evolution happens in Tanglang and it's still going. Having said that it is all the more reason to be mindful about the past so that we don't lost sight and drift into a dead end for our beloved art.

Warm regards

Robert

PS I think it would be a good idea to look at what so special about the number 8 and mantis.

[B.Tunks]

****! I spent ages typing a response and bumped my keyboard and lost the bi-atch!
basically I was saying that I agree and have nothing to argue with your post. In fact you were right, someone has to play the devils advocate. In fact, this kind of argument will only make research like yours and Kevins even stronger, as only real truth stands up to questioning.

Just for the record (so I dont appear Mr Western ignorance of the century), I have studied elementary Dao metaphysics including the I-Ching and have a basic understanding of Buddhist numerology. I acknowledge that these things are inextricably entertwined in chinese culture. Certainly not down playing their role in Chinese Boxing, just questioning their relevance in some instances and certainly weighing them against the less esoteric factors of the art. (Brains vs Brawn, if you will).

Interesting discussion, more to come. Oh yeah Robert, get the ball rolling on the eight.

(speaking of numbers, when I first read your name: 108, I thought you might have been the 489 or 438 or 415 or even 432 but most likely the 426 with your gongfu abilities) sorry for the in joke all. Robert can explain...

BT

[mantis108]

Hi Brendan,

Wow, that's quite a compliment there, my friend. Thank you. But I am actually more like and pretty darn lucky to be grass slippers if I ever get recuited. LOL... You and Kevin definitely have the fighting down more like the 426 (double flower red poles) ;) You Know I have no doubt that you understand and appreciate the esoteric side of Chinese culture. Your respect and relationship with your teacher(s) is a great proof of the deep love for Chinese culture and its tradition.

Will get the ball rolling next.

Warm regards

Robert

[mantis108]

Whenever the number 8 comes up, we immediately think of Bagua (the 8 trigrams) in I Ching. So it is natural for people to think that it is the case with Kung fu that there is some deep spiritual secret stuff in the using the magic number 8. However, I find that there might just be a more historic and cultural reason to adopt 8 into the CMA practices.

Piror to Ming dynasty (1644-1911 CE), there aren't many martial arts literatures available. Partly, this is due to the technology limitations of the former dynasties. There is a technological advancement during Ming dynasty. Book publishing starting to take off during this period. Ming dynasty imperial family was highly suspicious of its military power. In order to keep a tight control over the military, civil officiers were placed as the commanders of troops. This means that you would have to be a scholar before you can be a general. Scholar commanders were required to report in writting about all activities in the military. That's why we have books about military training and strategies records from that time. We also found that martial arts is practiced along side academic pursuits. We often hear about people dropping civil studies and taking up martial studies during their 20s. Considering the average age back then would be like 40 something, 20 years old is pretty late in life. The only way possible for someone to do that is when they start young and have all the basic done. This dual studies carried on to the most part of Qing dynasty. We see the same case in Taiji Tanglang's GM Li Bingxiao (mid 1700s CE) as well.

We have evidence of a movement to ease the mind of the imperial authority about martial arts within the military and the general public. Perhaps there was even an unofficial survey by 1500s. General Yu Dayou's visit to Shaolin might not be just a visit since Shaolin like other Buddhist temples at the time owns monk troops. It doesn't necessarily said that he was "spying" on Shaolin. In 1613, Ching Chongdao wrote a book about Shaolin stick spear and saber methodologies. BTW, he also droped civil discipline for martial discipline. He commented on General Yu's protege, General Chi's (1528-1587 CE) spear method. He also mentioned in the footnotes that 8 mother spear. The analogy that he made was that the 8 strokes of the 8 mother spear are like the 8 strokes of the character (yong) "forever". Everyone who practices calligrahpy knows that yong contains all 8 strokes that are presented in every character in Chinese writing. This is the first time in written record that the number eight in civil discipline is associated with martial art IMHO.

Form there on, we have an expression "wen you ba fa, wu you ba shi" meaning that in civil discipline the fundamental is in the 8 strokes and in the martial discipline the fundamental is in the 8 stances. Surely, when we look at the 8 basic stances in PM we do understand all the other stances are variants of them. More importantly, the 8 stances in PM also have rudimentary applications that function somewhat like the 8 mother spear. We can see that this is not a mystical approach but more a philosophical approach that is characteristic of Confucius scholars.

For this reason, we can't just assume that the old masters just made things as they saw fit. It is more than likely that traditional training both civil and martial gave them the "inspiration". It is all the more reason for us to take upon ourselves to study the traditions.

Mantis108

[piotrj]

it is a very interesting to read topic like this one!

[MantisifuFW]

Shifus Tunks, Brazier and Hui,

Greetings!

I have little to add to the culturally adept discussions you guys have set forth. Indeed this points out clearly why you guys write the articles and I put together the Quarterly! (Which will be out in a couple of weeks with some FANTASIC articles by Shifus Hui and Brazier).

I will add that my Shifu, Brendan Lai, always admonished me that Tanglang predated any set or any theory. It was techniques and fighting experience first, that then was looked at through varing prisms of culture, philosophy, art (in the form of sets) medium of transmission (in the form of sets and categorization of techniques), organization and teaching methodology.

With this in mind, I look at Tanglang as a phenomena, an occurance in history experienced both by Mantis Boxer and opponent. Those who were participants in the event (Tanglang) as either practitioner or opponent or even whittness, at times, recorded the event. (For example, Fuju, if the meeting ever took place at Shaolin, was a whittness and organizer in reccording the experience of others).

So I welcome the analysis of Tanglang from numerological, cultural or even religious standpoints even as I read the I Ching to force me to examine a given situation from any one of 64 different viewpoints. All force me to think and grow...However, none are the last word...for in truth the last word is the experience of Tanglang in combat, which has no words... (does my Chan Buddhist leanings betray me here?)

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge and experience. I always learn so much from you all. I look forward to much more on this topic.. perhaps an article in the MQ???

Steve Cottrell

[B.Tunks]

Steve wrote:

However, none are the last word...for in truth the last word is the experience of Tanglang in combat, which has no words... (does my Chan Buddhist leanings betray me here?)

No it doesnt. Afterall; the sound of one hand clapping is the sound of a hand smashing into a face.

BT

[mantis108]

Thank you for the input and the support. Indeed Tanglang as a martial art is quite an phenomenon. You have very good eyes for articles, my friend. The information that I posted was going to be included in my future article. Since Brendan and Kevin are sharing some great stuff, I couldn't help but to share it as well. I am glad to hear that the new issue of Mantis Quarterly is about to be release. My students enjoy reading it. For me, I am happy that it is going strong into its second year. :)

Warm regards

Robert

[seung ga faat]

In Chinese Folklore/Mythology the Cicada represents immortality/forever. In the many Capture cicada acts the one that stands out is Tong Long Bou Sihm or Mantis embraces Cicada or immortality or forever. Just a thought.
________
aod transmission (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_AOD_transmission)
________
24 Dicussion (http://www.tv-gossip.com/24/)

[Tainan Mantis]

SGF,
Like you say cicada represents immortality or life after death.
But the practical application of this meaning you have to go East to see.

When someone died they would put a jade cicada in the mouth.

I was going through the antique section of the local jade market many years ago and I saw all these very old hand carved cicads.

"Wow, look at those!"
I said as I reached to pick one up.

"Don't touch!" My wife said in disgust.
"They come from dead people."

[GermanMantis]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis

When someone died they would put a jade cicada in the mouth.

I was going through the antique section of the local jade market many years ago and I saw all these very old hand carved cicads.

"Wow, look at those!"
I said as I reached to pick one up.

"Don't touch!" My wife said in disgust.
"They come from dead people."

Very interesting, i like this myth and lore stuff!

[sayloc]

I must admit I am very confused about all the numbers! 8,12,16 18,36,46......

You guys seem to have a deep understanding of this kind of thing, so.....could anyone suggest a good site or book on numerology?

[MantisCool]

Doesnt Tong Long Bou Sihm means Mantis catching the cicada? Does it mean Bou can also be embraced? Embrace and catch are 2 different things altogether!

Over here, now or in the past I never heard of the story of putting a jade cicada in the mouth of the dead? We only put coins and bags of coins on the body to keep the body from arising!

[Tainan Mantis]

Mantis Cool,
Maybe different customs in your country.

Also a fish was put in the mouth of the deceased.

This was items I witnessed for sale at the antique market and jade market in Tainan.

Before I sent in the story I used
"A DICTIONARY OF CHINESE SYMBOLS"
By Wolfram Eberhard

As my reference.
This is a very old custom that doesn't exist now adays.
I got this book because it has helped with translating 18 Luohan Gung.
That book has reference to many old customs, sayings and even novels that date to at least the Yuan dynasty.

Tang Lang Bu Chan.
I translate it as Mantis siezes the cicada.

It is the 7th move of the 7 manuevers from Meng Su.

[mantis108]

I have a book about jades and I have seen some of those kind of jabes. It is true that jade was used in ancient time in burial customs. In the old days jabe is a very broad category. It was not exclusive to only the green ones (largely imported to China) that we think of as jade.

Tainan's wife definitely has the best interest of her huddy in mind. ;) Lots of old Chinese don't really want to handle those stuff. But collectors are crazy about them. The red coloring is indeed blood stains. They used to cover all sevens holes (eight for women) of the deceased with jade pieces. BTW, nose counts as one hole. It is hard to know which hole that jade was covering. So becareful of what you are touching. Of course if you are comfortable with that, then by all means.

The character for catches in Mantis catches Cicada generally is the same as "apprehend" (Bao?). It sounds somewhat like Bao (embracing). A similar sounding character would be use which means "jumping on" (Pu?). In Cantonese, Bo Seem (apprehend/catch/seize) and Pok Seem (jumping on). Actually, Pu is a bit more literally pleasing because it is used to describe ladies catching butterflies (Pu die). It is supposedly a very romantic activity once upon a time where they would accidentally bump into a handsome scholar or two and they live happily ever after. :rolleyes: (like it ever gonna happen, lol...)

Mantis108

[mantis108]

About the numerology, it can be mostly found in the I Ching ( the Classic of Changes or the book of Changes). There many excellent work analyzing it in Chinese. It is difficult to read in its original form even for most Chinese people. So many scholars had " translated" and explained the I Ching in modern Chinese language. In the west, I believe the Germans would have some very interesting work about the subject. The translations in English that I have come across IMHO are sorry to say superficial at best. They mainly focus on translating the 64 hexigrams. The numerology and other important concepts are found in the so-called 10 wings of I Ching which were compiled by Confucius. I have not come across translations about the 10 wings which is the core of the I Ching study (with Confucius perspective). There are also Taoist work on the I Ching which has a slightly different take on certian matter. But that's a long story. Anyway, do a search on the web. You might found something interesting to begin with.

On a side note, I am working on an article about the relationship between Chinese pugilistic methodology and numerology. I might include information on PM forms (mainly TJPM). this would take a while to finish though.

Mantis108