Internal Punch

[blackmantis]

Hello all!

I study northern mantis fist, and when i punch i focus on pulling back the non-punching hand in order to create maximum power.

How do internal martial artists punch? How does it differ from an external punch?

S

[Midnight]

I'm not familiar with the mantis fist all that much, so excuse me when I say I dunno how pulling back the non-striking hand would add power to the striking hand. Unless you are somehow moving your body with that hand.

In any the internal arts however, during strikes, it is emphasized that hip pivoting take place. Rather then accumulating power from your shoulder by simply extending your arm. You should be gathering your strength from your whole body, which is where your hip pivot comes in.

Hip pivoting also acts as a source of force if trying to push someone. So even if the person doesnt appear hurt by the punch, it should put him off balance.

A good practice, would be to make a striking arm posture, slightly extended. Fist closed or palm strike, doesn't matter. Just be sure your elbow isn't tight, keep a bend there. As for foot posture, any is good, tho horse stance is prime for this excercise.
Now keep your arm rather firm, and instead of moving your arm, just pivot your waste. Visualize striking an opponent if you have no solid target.

[Buddy]

Actually fajing in IMA requires NO distance, wind-up, or obvious external torque. I've met people who put a hand on you and make you feel like your insides are jello.

[scotty1]

" good practice, would be to make a striking arm posture, slightly extended. Fist closed or palm strike, doesn't matter. Just be sure your elbow isn't tight, keep a bend there. As for foot posture, any is good, tho horse stance is prime for this excercise.
Now keep your arm rather firm, and instead of moving your arm, just pivot your waste. Visualize striking an opponent if you have no solid target."

If you are doing that in a horse stance, surely you're using your waist as opposed to your hips?

[Midnight]

Scotty,

Yes, my apologies. I sort of combined two different drills when attempting to describe the one. It would be the waist. Stepping forward, with one lead foot during the strike gives the hip pivot.


I notice I also spelt waist as waste.

Don't pivot your 'waste' people, because thats gross....pivot your WAIST.

[Golden_Leopard]

I cannot see how moving your non-striking hand back while you punch helps at all, it fact it doesn't. Internal punches come from your dan-tian area which is your lower abdomen, and not by simply physically shifting your body weight by turning at the hips, a powerful punch should be able to be performed in force stance by moving nothing but your arm. Breathing is important as you must breath through your nose then grunt through your mouth as you strike, imaging your knocking down a brick wall with your punch. One finger zen and horse stance training will help you with gathering internal force. GL

[Midnight]

GL,

Naturally Qi plays a great factor in combat. But my comparison was based on movement during striking, and refraining from striking while completely stationary.

I would like for you to tell me I'm wrong when I provide you the following scenario:

Both you and me, standing within 2 feet from eachother. Each in a horse stance facing eachother. If we take turns in a strike, you with no movement other then the extension of your attacking arm. And me with either waist pivot, or stepping in with a hip pivot. Do you honestly believe your attack will compare with mine?
Do not forget, I didn't say 'I' didn't use Qi in any way, shape or form during my discussion. I just didn't mention it.

Qi adds to an attack greatly, but if you still plan on striking with little more than your shoulder backing you up...you are in trouble.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

An explosion in the DanTien.. it ripples up the spine in a wave-like motion.. snaps the Arm like a whip.. and is supported by a good stance/foundation.. and it can all occur with only the slightest motion, in a fraction of a second.. but, it begins with a genuine explosion in the DanTien, a certain release of energy/intent.. or so my experience suggests.. :)

Be well...

[Golden_Leopard]

The example you gave of two people in horse stance slightly confuses me as I don't think it is advisable to be shifting your hips while punching in this position. Perhaps switching from a left bow stance to a right one would serve the example better. The punch that would be more effective depends on who has more internal force. Yip man's patented 'one inch' punch hardly even used any arm muscle, let alone the shoulders, waist or anything else.

[kungfu cowboy]

I notice I also spelt waist as waste.

Don't pivot your 'waste' people, because thats gross....pivot your WAIST.

(sigh) I just wish you would have posted that a little sooner.:(

[Midnight]

Yes Yip Man's one inch punch was incredible. And I'm sure his 2 inch punch was even more powerful..and his 3 inch even more so

....we can extend this punch right back to a lunging punch, and still it will be more powerful.

But do you think Master Yip Man did all his training by never moving a muscle in his body other than his arm? I seriously doubt this. He had years of practice in both waist pivoting and hip pivoting. He was a wing chun practicioner, wing chun is all about movement.

So would you recommend someone begin their training of martial arts, by doing what a master of his own form took years to perfect did before his death? I should hope not.

Qi cultivation and understanding takes incredible amounts of time, practice and discipline. It will not be something mastered in a short period of time. Even Tai Chi, which is used as a tool to control ones Qi while learning a martial art at the sametime, displays hip and/or waist pivoting throughout the form.

I should also add that if you watch any demonstration of the one inch punch, you'll see waist pivoting happening.

[Buddy]

The problem is that you are trying to use external mechanics. IMA uses those same sort of obvious mechanics but the way of moving internally is completley different. While I agree sort of with the explosion analogy really it's more of a pulse, combined with whole body power. Qi doesn't really have anything to do with it, it's just correct internal power mechanics.
Buddy

[serious harm]

There are at least 6 harmonies, not just 3. Here are some sites discussing a little bit about qi application in Internal styles

http://www.geocities.com/tukylam/discharge.htm

http://members.shaw.ca/wuti/xuseminar.html


On this thread this poor backbreaker guy is trolled for simply having a light hearted discussion on qigong methods

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29273

Qoute Buddy

"you dissmiss an important and often misunderstood"

Ha. I was taught for one anyways, that raising the back is not very important, pressing the crown is, and if you look at this backbreaker guys posts, he recommends the best qigongs for pressing the crown and crown development. Here is the link explaing the controversy of raising the back, Second, the stability of the mingmen, groin, and hips is more impotant than the exact positioning of the tailbone

http://www.geocities.com/tukylam/writings.htm

As one cool IMA guy said, internal energy is energy, discovered by the monks, at the temples, and manipulated internally, that means the vagus nerve, you must understan that type of vocabulary in order to understand internal energy.

So I for one cannot see how anyone can seperate so called internal mechanices from qi and qigong. All Taiji is based off conjoined hands posture.

[Buddy]

<this poor backbreaker guy >
LOL, everyone knows it's you, Nancy. You were outed here and on EF. Now you can ask about the dissolving process.

[serious harm]

Taiji means Taiji, Bagua means bagua, xiny means xinyi, is the only way I can see it can be.

http://www.threegeese.com/NewFiles/wg7demo.html

http://shaolin-wahnam.tripod.com/general/videos.html

http://www.blacktaoist.com/Master%20Xu%27s%20Yin%20style/Xu%27s%20Yin%20style.html

[serious harm]

Huh, what are you talking about, thanks for your input. You have something to say about the actual 16 movemet thing?

[Buddy]

I mean you even use the phrase 16 movement thing, just like when you were poor backbreaker. But because you haven't been the incessant ****ant that you will be, I'll tell you. It's not 16 movements, it's sixteen principles. One of which is the dissolving process you were interested in on the Qigong part of this board. The one where the guy talked about how the dissolving opened his sinuses. That is true, but only the very beginning. That 16 part process (really that number is only a way of counting) is a very good way of developing internal martial mechanics. Not the only way but a very good way, if taught correctly.

[goldendragon]

In Yin style bagua (all I'm sure about) you use a ripple starting in your legs, being directed by your waist, it ripples up spine and your arm moves outward your hip moves back(and tucks) then the force exits your hand. We use mostly palm strikes in the dragon system but I know the bear system has fist strikes. same concept. the ripple starts when you step but if you don't step you have to use more waist and hip to get the full force.

[PHILBERT]

serious harm/backbreaker, quit the "I don't know what you are talking about" innocent routine. I just did an IP check and you and him are one and the same.

Buddy, thanks for the heads up.

[cerebus]

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! That "poor Backbreaker guy"!:D :D :D Man, when I read that I laughed so hard my smile muscles are still in pain!!!:D

"Serious Harm"? "Spurious Charm"? Whatever you're calling yourself now, your posts are instantly recognizable dude so you can quick thinking that everyone's THAT stupid.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The "explosion" in the DanTien is both a physical movement and a release of "intention/Qi".. the physical movement sets-up proper physical alignment.. the Qi/intention fires the muscles at their most effective and powerful potential in a direction as "intended", not as considered by regular thought processes.. the intention manifests at the target, bypassing the mental delay of muscle instruction.. similar to an instinctive response as opposed to a considered response.. if the ripple or wave is very noticable, then it is either exaggerated for teaching purposes (or to draw attention to one's self), or the student is still working on alignment and not internal, yet..

Be well..

[Toby]

Originally posted by Golden_Leopard
Yip man's patented 'one inch' punch ...
Huh? He patented it? Does the patent still apply? So if I learn it, I have to pay royalties to Yip Man's sons? Did he also patent the "one inch kick", because if not, I smell an opportunity!

[Fu-Pow]

Biggest difference between External and Internal in terms of a punch is...

The purely external sees the torso (including the shoulders) connected as one unit. So the leg moves the hip, the hip moves the torso, the torso moves the arm and the arm moves the fist.
This kind of power is stiff, sectional and largely dependent on momentum. Think poorly done karate.

In internal arts, everything is viewed as moving independently but everything moves at the SAME TIME. This is the NATURAL way to move. For every part of the body that goes foward, something must move back, for every part that opens, something must close. The punches power moves through the body as a "wave" but is not sectional because it is not tension that is moving through the body as in an external punch. The power is produced by the interplay of Taiji within the body in a coordinated fashion.

Internal/external are not so clear cut however. Most CMA's are somewhat internal in nature. The phrase "steel wrapped in cotton" can be applied to most arts at a high level. This quality is achieved when Taiji principle is happening in the body even when the practitioner might not be aware of it or how they got there. It is just over a long time of body practice this principle will manifest itself.

Also, might note, that some arts utilize the Taiji principle to generate power and then "let go" and combine external momentum with the internal power. However, as they're momentum takes over at the end their movement they must "reign in" their movement using muscle power. Their movement then becomes stiff and "dead" for an instant and it loses the potential to change. It takes them a second to reinitiate the Taiji priniciple within the body. Taiji Chuan on the other hand never becomes "dead" in this sense and never loses the ability to change. This is why it is especially great for inclose fighting where balance is key issue.

Just my two cents as a practitioner of both external and internal arts. Some might agree or disagree. :cool:

[Hau Tien]

In reply to the original post...

I've studied Seven Star Praying mantis, and think I know hwat is being referred to. It is indeed a pivot from the waist that the original poster is describing. The front hand is retracted to the hip as the rear hand punches, causing the waist to turn.

However, I would suggest not just focusing on pulling the forehand back, but instead on the waist turning. After that, I would try to focus on feeling the movement come from your back foot.

My old sifu would always say "Ankle, knee, hip, shoulder, elbow, wrist". To explain, he meant that the movement begins in your back leg, from the ground, it then flows up your leg to your knee, to your hip (waist), to your shoulder, to your elbow, and then to your wrist/fist. That was the method of power generation I was taught in Seven Star praying mantis.

I've also trained in Liu He Ba Fa (6 Harmonies, 8 Methods) and can say that while the actual mechanical movement is similar (ankle, knee, hip, shoulder, elbow, wrist) the breathing and movement of qi/energy causes force to be brought forward from the dan tien. Correct movement/posture/alignment helps the flow of qi, obviously, so correct mechanical movement is required.

Anyway... just my 2 cents...

[bamboo_ leaf]

Fow Po,

I think that was a little more then 2 cents.

very clear ;)

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
Fow Po,

I think that was a little more then 2 cents.

very clear ;)

Ok...it was more like 4 cents...but who's counting?:D

[Walter Joyce]

Just curious Fu Pow and Hua Tien,

do you differentiate between an internal "punch" and fa jin?

do you see praying mantis as an "internal" system?

do you see wing chun as an "internal" system?

Serious inquiry, not trolling.

Walter

[Hau Tien]

Originally posted by Walter Joyce
Just curious Fu Pow and Hua Tien,

do you differentiate between an internal "punch" and fa jin?

do you see praying mantis as an "internal" system?

do you see wing chun as an "internal" system?

Serious inquiry, not trolling.

Walter

Well... in my opinion, there is little difference in "internal" and "external". They are simply a means to an end in Chinese martial arts training.

I do not mean to say that they are the same. I mean that in the end, the result should be the same. I found as I started to progress through the Seven Star Praying Mantis system, the training went from the traditional "hard" style and took on a slightly more "soft" or internal feel. The same was true of the internal system progressing more towards the hard, as you start to learn to use the movements in actual combat.

Something I found fun was trying to use solely LHBF techniques in a sparring situation with a kickboxer. He was absolutely flabbergasted by "brush the knee" :)

[Walter Joyce]

Interesting philosophy, but how about actually answering the questions?


:)

For my part, internal/external is a continuum, and not always will lead to the same place in training especially if you start on the far side of the external end of the continuum. Further, very few external stylists ever reach the level of skill that would somehow transform their skill into those of a skilled neijia practitioner.

At the far end of the internal side of the continuum I place taiji.

Is fa jin a punch?

[Hau Tien]

Originally posted by Walter Joyce
Interesting philosophy, but how about actually answering the questions?

At the far end of the internal side of the continuum I place taiji.

Is fa jin a punch?

I thought I had, in a round-about sort of way.

Is PM internal? It can be.

Is Wing Chun internal? I've never practiced it, but I imagine it could be.

Does fa jin = a punch? Not in my opinion. One can punch without ever having put fa jin into their movement. Is fa jin limited to only punching?

[omarthefish]

AW fer cryin out loud....what's it gonna take to get people to stop talking about 'fa jin' as if it was a technique? (not directed at you Walter.) But the question DOES encourage that sort of thing, treating it as a noun instead of a verb-object combination.

You use JIN.

You can 'fa' jin.

You can NOT use 'fa jin'.

'fa' is a verb. 'jin' is a noun.

'fa jin' is not a specific technique, attack, property of a certain style or any other thing.

And on a less argumentative not, IMHO, has little to do with wether a style is "internal", "external" or where it falls on that continuom. (sp? :mad: )

[Walter Joyce]

If you read the thread the reason for the question may be more obvious.
The title is internal punch, and the descriptions, for the most part, describe what is to me, just a punch.

There is little or no discussion of internal mechanics, say the six harmonies or a xing I use of a spinal wave or the opening and closing of the intercostals.

Buddy brings the idea of fa jin into the thread, which as he is describing it, is an "internal method of striking, and not what I would call a punch.

You may want to limit the use of the term "fa jin" to your particular understanding of it, but it has and will continue to be used as a descriptive, or noun, by many people.

While there is a general understanding of what fa jin means, that btw varies from camp to camp, and in certain contexts it describes a rather specific approach to delivering force that is what I see as a method unique to the neijia arts, and most often used by taiji practitoners, but also seen in yiquan and other arts that focus on standing and neigong.

If you have ever been hit by somenone who has developed this skill you will know exactly what I am talking about. It is a very unpleasant experience and the ability to use this skill is not widespread.

SOOOOO, my questions were an attempt to bridge the title of the thread, the majority of the posts, which I see as descriptions of generic good punching, and the idea of fa jin, as described somewhat in passing by Buddy.

As such, the internal/external continuum idea fits because good punching, when done well, fits in the middle of that continuum and can be found in MANY arts, including western boxing, while fa jin, as descibed by Buddy and in the context of a specific method that ONLY results from a specific type of training that I would say is on the far end of the "intenal" continuum.

Just a thought or two.

[omarthefish]

Yes, I knew you would have a more . . . nuanced approach but it still grates on me the way words mutate when they are placed in new cultural contexts. So 'fa jin' is a new, English language word now. Because "my" understanding of it, at least the part I posted was based in nothing more mysterious than basic Chinese grammer. So, seeing as the purpose of language, in the end, is to communicate, I supposed I ought to to just relax and understand what people are trying through the barrier of their linguistic handicap, to communicate. It still bothers me because the constant change of the generally accepted meanings of word impairs MY ability to communicate clearly.

So if 'fa jin' refers to a specific method of developing force.....which kind of force? Whipping? Explosive? Elastic? Penetrating? Abrasive? Percussive? Slippery? Spiraling? etc.

Well, if there is something called "an internal punch" or "punching internally" (I can't see the title of the thread while posting) I guess it would mean using SOMETHING specific or at least characteristic to the internal families to generate power. But my understanding of "internal" is not something mechanical. It is something I have seen but admit I can't quite grasp with any regularity to do with the unification of jin, qi and shen in a movement. I think reducing it to "coiling" or some kind of wave of energy from the feet out to the hands/shoulders/etc. is ....well....reductionist. (I think that's the right word?:confused: )

I can and DO do all of those things with great regularity but am quite confident I haven't even started to taste real "internal" power.....unless you count the "taste" my Shifu gives me fom time to time.

[Walter Joyce]

My purpose is clarity, and the pursuit of it. I appreciate your respect for chinese grammar and have the same understanding of the terms that you explain, but also accept what I have seen as general usage of the term.

We all understand things differently, and while I am not comfortable with using terms like "qi" (too many variations) and also believe I have a fairly good understanding of the complexity involved in neijia skill, sometimes simple is better for discussion.

We are beings that exist in a body the use of which can be described in part by mechanics. The complexity and subtlety of these mechanics may be difficult to encapsulate but we are still subject to the limitations of the realm in which we all live, and for me that realm begins with my body and all that it contains (which includes mind, spirit, and life force, energy or qi, however you choose to describe it.)

I'm on an awareness kick these days, so please don't fault me for trying to keep the thread on topic, i.e. "Internal Punching."

What was described by Buddy, and that I labeled as " fa jin" (much to your dismay ;) ) is an explosive force or wave. It can be a short wave (the turn your insides to jelly effect, as was mentioned) or a longer wave, (send you back several feet through the air while not really causing discomfort result.)

I use the term "fa jin" to describe it because it is a very short or small whole body movement, almost imperceptible to the observer. It is an expression of explosive power done with small or short movement. I was also told that it was an example of "fa jin" when it was first demonstreted on me and have since heard and used the term even when in the company of people for whom chinese is the native tongue.

Again, my purpose is the pursuit of clarity, no offense intended.

[Midnight]

Been a little while since I last touched on this post. Looks like alot more talk on how Qi adds to the striking of an internal combat artist.
Since I only spoke of proper external arm mechanics before, I'll add my knowledge of Qi during combat.


Qi (chi) - personal energy, aura or magical force. Shield or wall, surrounding and protecting every living thing.


The essense of Qi originates Dan Tian (abdomen), or kidney. From this point, Qi reaches out in all directions. From head to toe.
Nobody truely can say just what exactly Qi is. Some refer to it as nerves, adrenaline, magical force, energy or aura.....most commonly referred to as blood circulation however, Qi appears to travel the same paths as the blood in a persons body.

The internal arts are referred to as the internal arts, due to their focus on Qi. Because Qi is substantial and not insubstantial, reasoning would lead someone to believe it has its own mass.
Training internally consists of controlling this internal mass, directing it to whichever part of your body you wish it to be. This is where the magic behind the power of the internal punch comes from. Not only are you placing your external body mass into your strike, but the internal as well.

==========

(-=This next statement is being used purely for demonstrative purposes=-)

Lets say those people who believe Qi to be blood are correct, and it is blood. Blood, being substantial, does contain its own weight (mass). However its mass is spread out, across your entire body. If you could manipulate that flow, channel a little from your leg, and a little from your left arm and a little from your foot.....direct it into your striking right arm, adding mass behind its attack. You would cause a stronger attack.

[omarthefish]

First of all,

Kudos to Walter for the amazing feat of BOTH demonstrating an understanding of my view AND at the same time reinforcing his own. Impressive.

Second,

Since blood was just brought up as a particular view on qi, a correction is in order.

"Blood" (in quotes) is defined in the traditional paradigm as "that which carries the qi to the various organs. It is NOT in itself considered a form of qi.

Back more specifically on topic....

If you we are going with the idea of an internal punch as one that contains 'fa jin' *groan* . . . then I would say that is only a partial answer. As I alluded to in my previous post, there are many types of 'jin'. What makes it internal is not so much the jin that is produced but the method producing it. I'll speak from a Baji perspective since that's where I am recieveing the most specific intruction.

In the Baji that I am learning there are no less than SIX big jin that are supposed to be contained within EVERY movement. But at the same time I am being taught that it is an external style. The big change that is supposed to make something internal...and I DO practice baguazhang....a LOT....the change is that nei gong, internal training, is supposed to have much more to do with the psycholigical/emptional/psychic atitude than the specific movements. It's the internal mechanics. To the degree that it can be described anatomically it would not be mapped out so much by physical location but by patterns of tension and by the ever ellusive quality of intent. It's what goes on inside your body.

[Midnight]

Originally posted by omarthefish
Since blood was just brought up as a particular view on qi, a correction is in order.


No my friend, a correction is not 'in order'. Please do read my post again, as I said that it was a view of some people that blood was the actual Qi. I wasn't claiming it was.

Do not correct me for the re-statement of another persons views.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Walter Joyce
Just curious Fu Pow and Hua Tien,

do you differentiate between an internal "punch" and fa jin?

do you see praying mantis as an "internal" system?

do you see wing chun as an "internal" system?

Serious inquiry, not trolling.

Walter

An "internal punch" is expression of power through the fist. But really when you "fa" it is expression of power through whole body. Remember what I posted before about the differences between internal an external. Even though in Taiji the force feels like it is traveling it is really traveling everywhere, all at once. Even though the technique is "punch" the technique is really "fa." If you touched a high level Taiji master on the back while he is "punching" then you are still going to get thrown back. Hope that makes sense.

As to your other questions. As I stated before all systems are "internal" at a high level. But all systems embody the Taiji principle at a high level, "like steel wrapped in cotton."
Through mindful and diligent practice all martial systems are "Taiji "or the balancing of opposites within the body. It's just that "external" systems sacrifice this priniciple in the beginning to give a person quick fighting skills using "normal" strength. Taiji sacrfices quick gains in ability for the higher level first.

Poor mindless practice will never get you anywhere.

Systems like Wing Chun, Lung Ying, SPM and Bak Mei are partially internal but I don't think they have the whole picture. Especially as far as rooting goes.

Just my 4 cents....haha...Peace out.

[Walter Joyce]

Truly cosmic dude.

:cool:

[Buddy]

"all systems are "internal" at a high level. But all systems embody the Taiji principle at a high level, "like steel wrapped in cotton."
Through mindful and diligent practice all martial systems are "Taiji "or the balancing of opposites within the body. It's just that "external" systems sacrifice this priniciple in the beginning to give a person quick fighting skills using "normal" strength. Taiji sacrfices quick gains in ability for the higher level first. "

Nonsense. You cannot gain internal skill by practicing in an external way no matter how long you do it. It is a completely different way of moving. Clearly you don't understand this.
Buddy

[RICK JAMES]

Pardon my last post. I didn't realize swear words
weren't allowed. How strange....

You can say bad things as long as you don't use bad words.
It's like a sesame street hockey fight.

Interesting post Buddy. Some eventually arrive and stumble across these "internal" principles during the course of "external" study, especially the gifted. Is it refined body skill? Is it the ideal?

Getting a little "body skill" and adding it to an external practice does not make it "internal". The best is trying to guess which venerable external teacher comes up with his "lost Family TaiJi set" next...

[Walter Joyce]

Originally posted by Buddy
Nonsense. You cannot gain internal skill by practicing in an external way no matter how long you do it. It is a completely different way of moving. Clearly you don't understand this.
Buddy

This clearly and succinctly states my view.

[omarthefish]

Fu Pow said, "Poor mindless practice will never get you anywhere. "

My Shifu once said of turning circles in bagua practice, "How many circles does a taxi cab's wheels turn in a day? How much 'nei gong' does it develop?"

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Buddy
"all systems are "internal" at a high level. But all systems embody the Taiji principle at a high level, "like steel wrapped in cotton."
Through mindful and diligent practice all martial systems are "Taiji "or the balancing of opposites within the body. It's just that "external" systems sacrifice this priniciple in the beginning to give a person quick fighting skills using "normal" strength. Taiji sacrfices quick gains in ability for the higher level first. "

Nonsense. You cannot gain internal skill by practicing in an external way no matter how long you do it. It is a completely different way of moving. Clearly you don't understand this.
Buddy

Well then how do Taiji people gain internal skill I wonder? Because their practice starts out as purely external also....hmmmmm......i

Anyways, in my experience both in Choy Lay Fut (supposedly an purely external art) and Hun Yuan Chen Shi Taiji (supposedly a purely internal art) the differences are not as great as you'd first suppose. Good body mechanics are good body mechanics...period. It's just that Taji's are a bit more refined and put to a different use (ie infighting.) CLF's are less refined but for the use of beating your opponent into the ground. (BTW, Choy Lay Fut is way faster to learn and to apply. I could turn someone into a competent fighter in the space of 3 months. With Taiji it could take years.) At a high level Choy Lay Fut also has Nei Gong practice and excercises similar to push hands. Any good martial art starts from the point of "mindful" practice. It is through this practice that the nuances of the human body come to light. Now stop worshipping your Taiji/BaGua/Hsing-Yi teachers and realize that there is a whole world of martial styles out there (300 in China alone.) Don't become so narrow minded to think your's is the best. Pick your poison....hahaha.

[Walter Joyce]

Fu Pow,

I am not bringing this up as a way to assert what I have to say is correct, more as a means of providing context.

I have trained for over 25 years, and have seen more than a few training methods. I know that Buddy has also trained for decades, 18 years in ba gua alone. Neither one of us is into sifu worship.

Its not that other CMA don't have internal aspects, in the broad sense of the term. They just don't include the specific training methods that separate neijia arts from the rest.

While you may not agree, there is no need to tell people with more experience in studying these arts that they need to broaden their outlook.

Walter

[Buddy]

"Well then how do Taiji people gain internal skill I wonder? Because their practice starts out as purely external also....hmmmmm......i


Hmmm, what can I say? No it doesn't. You seem to think I said there is no external training in IMA. of course there is but it is taught in the context of a very particular type of body method (shen fa). It's taught hand in had not one after the other. It's a different way of moving.

<<Anyways, in my experience both in Choy Lay Fut (supposedly an purely external art) and Hun Yuan Chen Shi Taiji (supposedly a purely internal art) the differences are not as great as you'd first suppose.

Gosh, based on experience with Hung Ga Fu Hok there is. I've seen very high level Nanquan. It's not the same.

<<Good body mechanics are good body mechanics...period.

Sorry, you're wrong.

<<It's just that Taji's are a bit more refined and put to a different use (ie infighting.) CLF's are less refined but for the use of beating your opponent into the ground. (BTW, Choy Lay Fut is way faster to learn and to apply. I could turn someone into a competent fighter in the space of 3 months. With Taiji it could take years.)

Well, obviously it depends on the individual. A competent fighter in 3 months? Hmmm. Maybe a competent sparrer.

<<At a high level Choy Lay Fut also has Nei Gong practice and excercises similar to push hands. Any good martial art starts from the point of "mindful" practice.

Sorry pal its different.

<<It is through this practice that the nuances of the human body come to light. Now stop worshipping your Taiji/BaGua/Hsing-Yi teachers and realize that there is a whole world of martial styles out there (300 in China alone.)

Please don't preach to me son. I've seen more than you can hope to.

<<Don't become so narrow minded to think your's is the best. Pick your poison....hahaha.

Sorry Howdy but I didn't say it was best only different. But I knew you'd get to that. Perhaps you should read better. Hahaha.

[Fu-Pow]

I stand by what I said. It seems we see things differently based on our own experiences.

[8gua]

"It is through this practice that the nuances of the human body come to light."


This is consistent with my exerience. The body reveals itself through trainning. You learn to do what is there not dictate what is to be done. However the intention we set for our explorations of the body deterimine what we are likely to encounter. Here is where the art and its trainning methods are so important. If one never takes the time to determine and develop "internal skills" they will never gain them. You must train something consistently for it to become powerful, seems obvious, but people decry things constantly because they have no experience of them. People have no experience of things they have not developed. If you are trainning in any art and it develops skill sets that are consistent with internal power, you will gain internal power regardless of what it is called or known for. After all you cannot guild the lily you can only learn to let it go with the wind.

[Buddy]

"The body reveals itself through trainning. You learn to do what is there not dictate what is to be done."

Learn to do what is there?

"However the intention we set for our explorations of the body deterimine what we are likely to encounter. Here is where the art and its trainning methods are so important. If one never takes the time to determine and develop "internal skills" they will never gain them."

Could you be a little clearer? You can "intend" anything but if you don't have the proper training methods...

"You must train something consistently for it to become powerful, seems obvious, but people decry things constantly because they have no experience of them."

8, I'm sorry but what is it 'people' decry?


"People have no experience of things they have not developed. "

This, of course, is obvious.

"If you are trainning in any art and it develops skill sets that are consistent with internal power, you will gain internal power regardless of what it is called or known for."

Unless, of course, it does not have the method for developing real internal power.

"After all you cannot guild the lily you can only learn to let it go with the wind."

You lost me with this one. Mixed metaphor perhaps?

[BAI HE]

"You learn to do what is there not dictate what is to be done."

I like this thought. I relate it to football (real football, not that buggery kick ball soccer poof putty!)

The Patriots manage to win 2 superbowls in three years with one of the least (by NFL standards) talented rosters in the league.
Their recievers are short, they don't have a running game, their linebackers are rather old and slow... and on it goes.

What do they have? The highest percentage of college graduates, guys who play through the whistle and getting back to what 8Gua said and more importantly...

"They can play in space", very important in football or in life.

This means that while nothing or everything is coming your way?
You are the same. You know how to play your game or apply your art or fighting style. You are always on, and can adapt your training to real life to surreal life.

Again in the NFL (SORRY ANALOGY) what you do away from the "play" is as important as making a play.

The worst fight you will ever be in? Will be one you never expect and may be with someone you are close to.

BTW - I watch waaaaaayyy to much Football. Not footy bloody girls game!)

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by blackmantis
Hello all!

I study northern mantis fist, and when i punch i focus on pulling back the non-punching hand in order to create maximum power.

How do internal martial artists punch? How does it differ from an external punch?

S

haven't read the thread because of time limits but my strike power comes after the draw -back motion and before the forward...then relax and it out ...hold, add rest of body and snap...make sense???

[8gua]

"learn to do what is there"

you do not attempt to overlay a technique onto a situation, you are simply appropriate with the situation at hand. You do what is available or take what is given.

if you do not set aside the trainning time to develop more subtle qualities, you will never develop them. it is not enought to say one must yield in internal arts, one must practice yielding, they must structure there practice with that intention. In trainning that, yielding must replace winning or any other measure or assesment, yielding must become the goal. this is not our normal mindstate or intention.

people often decry the value of some of the more subtle skills or methods of trainning as being silly or ineffective when in fact they have no basis of knowing that because they have not trainned them sufficiently.

guilding the lily....indulge me a little it was a rainy sunday :D point is that we cannot change what we are, but we can learn to see more clearly the objective conditions under which we live and operate.

[Midnight]

Time to add another few cents to this post it seems.
I'll try and shed a little bit of light to those that do not yet have experience in the internal arts, or in Qigong. Anybody else that wishes to elaborate, or fill in a gap I may happen to leave out (as I tend to do on msg boards), then please feel free.


The trick to conditioning ones inner abilities begins with first knowing how to recognize them. If you don't truely know what Qi feels like, then how can you ever know if the training you are attempting is working?

Here is an exercise which may help the people who have never experienced their own Qi, or personal energy.



Hold your hands flat together, vertically infront of your face (fingers pointing up). Your arms don't need to be at any specific angle for this, just let them hang at a comfortable level.

Rub your hands together quickly, building the friction in your palms and fingers. Do this for about 10 secs. The tighter your hands are together, the better it will be.

Once a short period of time has passed, you may stop rubbing your hands together....but do not seperate them.

Now VERY slowly, pull your hands apart from eachother, to no more than an inch apart. Now slowly begin to close that gap between your hands to as close as you can get your hands together without physically touching. Then once again pull them apart, slowly, to about an inch apart. Continue to do this.


The heat generated from the friction in the rubbing of your hands, should begin to 'mesh' in the space between your palms. There should be a sensation or your hands repelling eachother after a while. Almost like the reaction of two positively charged magnets being forced together....they will always push eachother away.


This exercise is one of a few different methods to finding ones own energy. Don't be discouraged if you didn't feel anything the first time, just wait a while and try again. Keep trying if need be, it may take sometime to finally understand the feeling.

Once a person understands the nature of his/her energy. They may then, and only then begin to train it.


I've been aware of my own aura since the age of 14, when I simply read a book about Qi, and attempted the very same exercise I detailed above. Now I control it, rooting my feet to the ground, feeling a surge of energy when I strike a target. I've moved arm hair, given myself goosebumps, removed inching sensations by simply not believing it was there...same with pain (small degrees of pain of course).
When my girlfriend tries to tickle me, I can simply let the tickling sensation leave my body (like I'm turning it off with a switch), it really ticks her off, but its an achievement to me.

[Buddy]

Hmmm. Actually good body mechanics is what is required. You might be able to raise someone from the dead with your "qi" but it doesn't mean you know how to use internal power. There is too much talk about qi in my opinion. Do your neigong and the qi will take care of itself.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by 8gua
"It is through this practice that the nuances of the human body come to light."


This is consistent with my exerience. The body reveals itself through trainning. You learn to do what is there not dictate what is to be done. However the intention we set for our explorations of the body deterimine what we are likely to encounter. Here is where the art and its trainning methods are so important. If one never takes the time to determine and develop "internal skills" they will never gain them. You must train something consistently for it to become powerful, seems obvious, but people decry things constantly because they have no experience of them. People have no experience of things they have not developed. If you are trainning in any art and it develops skill sets that are consistent with internal power, you will gain internal power regardless of what it is called or known for. After all you cannot guild the lily you can only learn to let it go with the wind.


Good point! Mindset is very important. This is why Internal arts are so tied into the art of meditation. Without a heightened sense of awareness you won't pick up on the subtleties of the way your body moves. Your mind won't be ready to receive what your body is telling you. This is what alluded to before about "mindful" practice.

Some people in External arts develop this without studying one of the big 3 internal arts. It's just that the big 3 are a more direct pathway to the internal aspect of martial arts.

Peace.

P.S.

ATTN: Buddy,

I'm not sure if you are aware of it but your "style" on this forum is very confrontational. Try paraphrasing others (to let them know that you understand) and then write your own ideas/comments underneath. Picking apart peoples posts line-by-line is always the precursor to flame wars on this forum. Your always going to find fallacies/hypocrisies in peoples writing but is this forum a place to flex your mental muscles or is it to share ideas and experiences with fellow martial artists? Up to you but you'll make more friends if you stick to the latter.;)

[Midnight]

Originally posted by Buddy
Hmmm. Actually good body mechanics is what is required. You might be able to raise someone from the dead with your "qi" but it doesn't mean you know how to use internal power. There is too much talk about qi in my opinion. Do your neigong and the qi will take care of itself.

For someone that likes to vew the internal arts boards...and to even challenge people to start better conversations regarding topics like this with your 'challenge' post. You sure have a negative outlook with feedback.

And to make comments like "there is too much talk about qi" while discussing internal mechanics, is just...well.....dumb...

[Walter Joyce]

You may find the term qi useful, but a fairly large number of well trained and well educated IMA (Internal Martial Art) people intentionally avoid the term because it is too vague, and in the past the word qi has been too often used to hide one's ignorance of what is actually happening in a physical sense.

At one point there was an article online by TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) people on the various definitions associated with qi, the development of it as a word. What was clear after reading the article, which I believe was published after peer review, was that the term is in fact an inexact phrase capable of many meanings depending on the context.

As a result, many IMA people sought to explain the actual mechanics of the neijia arts while avoiding use of the term. Its not that qi is not a recognized phenomenon, its just that too often the phrase is misued as a cover for ignorance, or inappropriately given the context, or even it may be just too vague to say "Oh, its the qi."

In IMA qi is transformed into jin anyway, so even in this context the use of the word qi is inexact at best.

Buddy may be caustic when he feels he is being provoked, and he is brutally honest in his opinions about neijia, but dumb is not an adjective I usually associate with him. He is a dedicated IMA who has done his best to train with the best practitioners available for longer than many of you posting (based on your profiles, yes I check so I have a minimal sense of who I am addressing), and he has spent years in research and practice. I would not dismiss his opinions about neijia so readily.*


* his political opinions, well feel free to dismiss those. :D

[Buddy]

Whatever your name is,

"I'm not sure if you are aware of it but your "style" on this forum is very confrontational."

Why is it that you are not sure? Rather than speculate, why not just ask me outright. Ah, right. Because then you could not get to your desire to advise me.

"Try paraphrasing others (to let them know that you understand) and then write your own ideas/comments underneath. Picking apart peoples posts line-by-line is always the precursor to flame wars on this forum."

Look I can't be responsible for others 'precursors'. Why would I risk paraphrasing when their own words are right there. Nobody has yet said that I missed their point. That's because their point is quite clear. While I appreciate your literary criticism, I hope you will understand that my "style" is exactly how I choose it to be. Did you find my post about Gao style tiangan confrontational? I daresay not.

" Your always going to find fallacies/hypocrisies in peoples writing but is this forum a place to flex your mental muscles or is it to share ideas and experiences with fellow martial artists?"

Ah so in the face of fallacies/hypocrisies we should should just sit by and blithely allow some poor 13 year old from East Gumshoe to believe a load of crap? Where's the responsiblity there? I'm a pretty smart guy and have no need to 'flex' here. Once again did you not see my post about Tiangan? Would you not call that sharing?

"Up to you but you'll make more friends if you stick to the latter."

I have friends. I'm not here to make more. I'm hear to share what I have learned. I'm also here to help root out the crap that often gets passed off as IMA. If you don't like my 'style' don't read my posts. That seems simple.


Mid,

"For someone that likes to vew the internal arts boards...and to even challenge people to start better conversations regarding topics like this with your 'challenge' post. You sure have a negative outlook with feedback."


OK, which part did you find negative. This---Actually good body mechanics is what is required---? This---You might be able to raise someone from the dead with your "qi" but it doesn't mean you know how to use internal power---? The rest? Nothing negative there.

"And to make comments like "there is too much talk about qi" while discussing internal mechanics, is just...well.....dumb..."

Well rather than add any invective let me ask you this. Which 'qi' are we talking about? Yuanqi? yiqi? Liver qi? qi meaning air? You see my point? I am not against the TCM paradigm but I don't feel it is useful when trying to get someone (particularly a beginner) to understand how internal power works. I think you'll find that the exercise you provided can be readily explained as a circulation phenomenon.

For those wishing to get a brief understanding the mechanics of internal power I suggest reading the second chapter of Tim Cartmells book "Effortless Combat Throws" entitled Body Use. Then find a teacher to explain it to you.


In closing let me quote Ayn Rand- "I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction." Anthem 1946

[Fu-Pow]

Buddy,

You continue to try to tear apart my post into a "debate style" format....point-counter point. Pardon the pun....but it's pointless.

I'm not gonna play that game cause I know where it ends up. We'll start arguing over minute logical inconsitencies. It's not that I fear that type of debate, I understand the rules of logic....butwhat would be the point? What would we gain? Nada.

I notice this same tendency in all your interactions. Are you an angry person? Trolling for arguments? What's the deal?

For someone that claims to be a long term expert on internal arts you seem very mentally rigid....black and white.....wrong and right...my way or the high way..... lets hope your form is not like your mind!

I think it was Chen Xiaowang that said it best....people's view of "internal arts" is like seeing them from a spiral stair case....even if we are standing near the same level we will see things differently, from a different angle.

It's funny that you should quote Ayn Rand. She was a very LOGICAL thinker. I used to think she had it all figured out with her philosophy of Objectivism. That was until I realized that she had confused the Map for the Territory....haha.

[SBonzak]

<<Its not that qi is not a recognized phenomenon, its just that too often the phrase is misued as a cover for ignorance, or inappropriately given the context, or even it may be just too vague to say "Oh, its the qi.">>

Reminds me of the story about Tohei Sensei...he saw a man staring intensely at an ink bottle on a table and asked what he was doing. The man replied that he was trying to move the bottle with his ki, and asked if Tohei Sensei could do that. Tohei Sensei said sure and reached out and picked up the bottle with his hand. The man was astonished and asked for an explanation. Tohei Sensei replied that it was simple, he had used his mind to direct his ki to move his arm to pick up the bottle!!

-Steve

[Buddy]

"You continue to try to tear apart my post into a "debate style" format....point-counter point. Pardon the pun....but it's pointless."


Look, I'm not tearing your post apart. I am addressing your points one by one.

"I'm not gonna play that game cause I know where it ends up. We'll start arguing over minute logical inconsitencies. "

I am unconcerned as to whether you address my posts or not. You might argue about minute logical inconsistancies but I am not interested in such trivialities. Feel free, if you are determined to respond to my posts to address my points.

"It's not that I fear that type of debate, I understand the rules of logic....butwhat would be the point? What would we gain? Nada. "


Look dude, you're setting up a straw man. You state an incorrect view of my position and then argue against it.

"I notice this same tendency in all your interactions. Are you an angry person? Trolling for arguments? What's the deal? "

Please spare me your psychoanalysis.


"For someone that claims to be a long term expert on internal arts you seem very mentally rigid."

For someone who claims to understand the rules of logic you seem to make things up out of whole cloth. I didn't claim to be anything. You interpret that because I have strength in my convictions.

"...black and white.....wrong and right...my way or the high way..... lets hope your form is not like your mind!"

Let's hope you aren't staying awake at night worrying about my form.


"It's funny that you should quote Ayn Rand. She was a very LOGICAL thinker. I used to think she had it all figured out with her philosophy of Objectivism. That was until I realized that she had confused the Map for the Territory....haha."

Haha. Good to know you've figured it all out.

[Fu-Pow]

:rolleyes:

I'm not gonna waste any more time on you...DEBATE NERD!!

:cool:

[Shooter]

Buddy, people like their theories nice and neat - without some know-it-all dropping the correct on them. Continue casting your pearls, but ignore the swine

Walter, honesty and experience are secondary considerations when someone's ego is at stake. The fu pow's of the world don't care how many years you have in if your style of disagreeing is too rough. :p

[Buddy]

"I'm not gonna waste any more time on you...DEBATE NERD"

Well how can you?

Shooter,
What can I say? I'm happy to give a lot of information. I'm not a big fan of typing except when I get my hackles up. Walter's right about me (he knows me). I have no ax to grind and no cross to bear. I approach each arguement the same. I do not suffer fools gladly and ask no quarter. Beyond that I like to have a good time and really am a jovial guy.
Buddy

[Shooter]

Beyond that I like to have a good time and really am a jovial guy

Hey, if you can put up with Pete on a regular basis, you must be righteously mellow. :cool:

Keep sharing your knowledge here. Some of us appreciate it very much. I don't always agree, but I know it's not some bull$3!+ theory you're bringing to the table- just a different experience. Real enough to be respected and given the consideration it deserves.

You'd think someone with 6 years in would be grateful to have an experienced player offer them a different perspective. their loss

[Midnight]

Originally posted by Buddy
Well rather than add any invective let me ask you this. Which 'qi' are we talking about? Yuanqi? yiqi? Liver qi? qi meaning air? You see my point? I am not against the TCM paradigm but I don't feel it is useful when trying to get someone (particularly a beginner) to understand how internal power works. I think you'll find that the exercise you provided can be readily explained as a circulation phenomenon.

First and foremost I'd like to say...Finally!
Now this is the kind of discussion you should be trying to bring up in threads. Open up something that adds and contributes to the thread, something that furthers the thread.

Instead it seems you just wanna make sure you were 'seen' in the thread somewhere by putting in your 2 cents like:
"could raise someone from the dead with your 'qi'"
putting 'qi' in quotes means nothing to me....but what you wrote above does. So good job.

And now that the congratulations are out of the way...

Naturally I'd be referring to 'liver qi' or the Qi brought forth from the Abdomen or Dan Tian. As for whether or not a beginner should be able to grasp which qi it is....there has never been a beginner that I've spoken to yet, who didnt understand which qi I meant. To be honest, being a beginner, they only ever knew of the one qi.

However for the sake of clarity, I'll do my best to elaborate more in further posts.


As for the cirulatory phenomenon...thats pretty much what qi is. Until some scientist is able to hold qi, put it under a microscope and analyze it, it will always be a phenomenon.
For the 'seeing is believing' everything is a phenomenon until otherwise proven.

[Walter Joyce]

Shooter,

Thanks, I agree. I confess though, I'm into a phase where I refuse to let others determine how or what I am going to post. I feel that letting someone use ignorance and fear to stop me from what I'm saying is another way of giving in to ignorance and fear.

I don't plan on fixing every wrong I see, but when something calls me, I do answer.

I love IMA, and I will do what I can to bring clarity to the subject. Call it enlightened self-interest.

Walter

[BAI HE]

Maybe Buddy doesn't translate well into the internet...

Let me sum it up: If your ever lucky to meet him, you get his opinions with no trivia or BS. He's just frank and speaks the way he does. Sometimes he'll tell you things you don't want to hear but he speaks from experience and keen analysis.

You ask someone about the sky for instance and the guy says:

"Can't you feel all it's heavenly glory raining down on you?!"

You ask Buddy and you get:

"It's blue, and bird**** and planes fall out of it sometimes."

That's about the best example I can think of what to expect from Buddy.

Then again, I can't think of any one who needs less help defending himself verbally or physically. Just thought I'd say a few words on behalf of nut.

[BAI HE]

Shoots-
Anyone who puts up with me for more than 20 minutes should get an award. Buddy? He should be canonized.