Powerful Punch

[blackmantis]

What is the best way to train in power for punches?

S

[Shaolinlueb]

hmmm, you can lift weights for the specific muscle group where most of the power comes from.

we're talking power now, not quick punch?

just put your hip into it man. if you want to punch harder start training iron fist stuff.

[Golden_Leopard]

Judging by your name mantis, I presume you are a Kung Fu student and not a boxer...so ignore advice about putting your hip into it and lifting weights because that's only going to slow you down. Methods for increasing punch speed, which will in tern give you stronger punches, as speed and strength is this instance are one and the same (you cant after all have a slow hard punch or a fast soft one) are as follows...

Knuckle push ups: this is the only excersise I would recommend that builds up your body, although this is not why you need to do it. Put your weight on your two striking knuckles (index and second finger) in order to harden up your knuckles.

One finger shooting Zen: If you are unsure of what this exercise entails let me know and I will give you the details - it is a sound method for increasing the speed and explosive power of your punches.

Punching with weights: hold a dumbbell to your waist as you punch out, keeping your shoulders still...letting your arms do all the punching. Breath in deep before letting out an explosive grunt as you punch. Your punch needs to be fast even with the weight so choose something thats not going to drag your arm down or pull it from its socket.

Hope this helps. GL

[MasterKiller]

You want to hit harder? Hit a heavy bag as hard as you can as many times as you can. Eventually, you will build up your strength. Follow ShaolinLueb's advice about using your hips.

Punching while holding weights is a great way to destroy your shoulder joints.

[norther practitioner]

so ignore advice about putting your hip into it and lifting weights because that's only going to slow you down.

Tell that to 7*, fatherdog, iron fist, or any of those guys... lol

Lifting wieghts does not slow you down, so long as you do it right, and not try to just bulk up....

As far as the hip thing, yeah, that will help get your body into the punch. It is very similar in most northern styles that I've seen. There is a lot of power generated from your twist, which happens in the waist/hips. There was a good article in Kung Fu Magazine not too long ago (I think it may have been the last Shaolin Special) that discusses this.

[WanderingMonk]

if all you are looking for is to increasing punching power, then what you need to do is squats. lots of squats.

with powerful legs and proper mechanics, you can direct the force coming from your legs into your targets. btw, look at your thighs. there's a lot more muscles there to generate force than those on you arms.

You do need to condition your shoulder joints (strengthening the muscles groups) and knuckles to withstand the recoil though.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Golden_Leopard
Judging by your name mantis, I presume you are a Kung Fu student and not a boxer...

Maybe... I'm not a CMA...

so ignore advice about putting your hip into it and lifting weights because that's only going to slow you down.

Dude, 1999 just called - it wants its tired argument back. Lifting weights does NOT make you slow, unless you are excessively huge. And, provided you stretch, it will NOT hinder your flexibility either.

As far as the hip comment goes, Why on earth do you think it slows you down? How do you generate power? When I was in CMA and in JMA, we used the hip. In thai boxing, we also use it.

Methods for increasing punch speed, which will in tern give you stronger punches, as speed and strength is this instance are one and the same (you cant after all have a slow hard punch or a fast soft one) are as follows...

you all make the same fundamental flaw whenever you say this... you are assuming the weight lifter is slow. Is tyson slow? what about any other heavyweight boxer? guys in MMA competitions? A bodybuilder maybe, but that's because his training isn't optimized for MA. he doesn't give a d@mn about punching speed, As most of these people will tell you, I'm a big guy. I lift every day. I've yet to meet the small fighter that I can't touch. If I can land a punch on you, then I can hit you hard enough to knock you out. I've done it in the ring, so I KNOW that I can.

Knuckle push ups: this is the only excersise I would recommend that builds up your body,

That's wrong. the building of the body from pushups is minimal. pushups are an endurance exercise, not a strength exercise.


Put your weight on your two striking knuckles (index and second finger) in order to harden up your knuckles.

Finally, something I agree with.


Punching with weights: hold a dumbbell to your waist as you punch out, keeping your shoulders still...letting your arms do all the punching. Breath in deep before letting out an explosive grunt as you punch. Your punch needs to be fast even with the weight so choose something thats not going to drag your arm down or pull it from its socket.

I don't do it from my waist - I do it from my guard, as I would in a fight.


In addition, punch a heavybag. That's one of the best options you have.

[Golden_Leopard]

Okay, I thought you were a Kung Fu student but you seem to be more of a boxer. I am answering as a Kung Fu student with my advice aiming to achieve combat efficiency. Not get bigger or get stronger, but to achieve combat efficiency.

Lifting weights for external strength will make your punches harder...but it wont make your arm move any faster, how could it when your arms are becoming heavier? These external exercises excersizes are nothing compared to internal arts that you should practise in order to gain stronger punches. I have enclosed a picture of Sifu Zhang demonstrating iron palm. It is obvious that no one the size of Zhang could ever break a pile of bricks like this if he had no force training. Masters like Sifu Zhang and Bruce Li obviously tone their bodies with push ups and sits ups and have gained some muscle, however they would have been even faster if they had not.

From a boxers perspective, by all means build yourself up because punching from your guard and doing not much else requires little force training. However I refer to martial arts training here and not sports like boxing. Lets just get this clear, boxing is not a self defence system, it is not a martial art. Is Tyson slow? Yes, compared to a Kung Fu practitioner that spends the same time training as him. Could Tyson break these bricks like Sifu Zhang? Perhaps, but not by just moving down his palm from one or two foot in the air.

As for punching from your guard and not your waist, I'm afraid it had been proven that the former gives you a greater punch, you may even try it yourself.

I'm afraid your training, in your own words, is not optimized for MA. If it were you would not need to do weights at all. There is a reason why you do not see bulky Kung Fu masters. What is your image of the master? Small and sleak, about 60 years old...still with the ability and health of a 20 year old? This is because they are strong through internal force training. Bodybuilding is diminishing in old age and after all, unhealthy.

[Banjos_dad]

Try doing Tan Tui with rings on. The brass or steel ones, from China. Start with a couple and then work up to 7 for a man (5 for a woman) for par. More eventually.
Knuckle pushups. Helps toughen you hands. Punching the heavy bag & focus bag.
Doing tan tui with rings on over a period of time adds speed and power. Knuckle pushups condition your hands so their not as easily damaged.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Golden_Leopard
Okay, I thought you were a Kung Fu student but you seem to be more of a boxer. I am answering as a Kung Fu student with my advice aiming to achieve combat efficiency. Not get bigger or get stronger, but to achieve combat efficiency.

Lifting weights for external strength will make your punches harder...but it wont make your arm move any faster, how could it when your arms are becoming heavier? These external exercises excersizes are nothing compared to internal arts that you should practise in order to gain stronger punches. I have enclosed a picture of Sifu Zhang demonstrating iron palm. It is obvious that no one the size of Zhang could ever break a pile of bricks like this if he had no force training. Masters like Sifu Zhang and Bruce Li obviously tone their bodies with push ups and sits ups and have gained some muscle, however they would have been even faster if they had not.

From a boxers perspective, by all means build yourself up because punching from your guard and doing not much else requires little force training. However I refer to martial arts training here and not sports like boxing. Lets just get this clear, boxing is not a self defence system, it is not a martial art. Is Tyson slow? Yes, compared to a Kung Fu practitioner that spends the same time training as him. Could Tyson break these bricks like Sifu Zhang? Perhaps, but not by just moving down his palm from one or two foot in the air.

As for punching from your guard and not your waist, I'm afraid it had been proven that the former gives you a greater punch, you may even try it yourself.

I'm afraid your training, in your own words, is not optimized for MA. If it were you would not need to do weights at all. There is a reason why you do not see bulky Kung Fu masters. What is your image of the master? Small and sleak, about 60 years old...still with the ability and health of a 20 year old? This is because they are strong through internal force training. Bodybuilding is diminishing in old age and after all, unhealthy.

he wasnt talking about speed. jsut power.

[Golden_Leopard]

Could you please explain to me the difference. Is not a quick punch a powerful one? How does one throw a slow powerful punch?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Golden_Leopard
Okay, I thought you were a Kung Fu student but you seem to be more of a boxer. I am answering as a Kung Fu student with my advice aiming to achieve combat efficiency. Not get bigger or get stronger, but to achieve combat efficiency.

he may be - I'm not the one who asked the question, only responding to your post. What you said was dead wrong.

Lifting weights for external strength will make your punches harder...but it wont make your arm move any faster, how could it when your arms are becoming heavier?

1. neither will speed alone.
2. he was asking about a harder punch, which added strength will give him.
3. Once again, you are assuming two very wrong things:
A. weight training will slow you down
B. strength training has to add bulk

Both of those are big misconceptions that many MA continue to propogatate, if nothing else than because they don't know any better.

These external exercises excersizes are nothing compared to internal arts that you should practise in order to gain stronger punches.

:rolleyes:

Internal/External is a different means to a same end.

Let's assume that that is actually true though. How long does it take to get the mechanics, perfect his breathing, make progress in his iron palm conditioning, etc?


I have enclosed a picture of Sifu Zhang demonstrating iron palm.

*waves finger* bricks no hit back.

Try this - take those bricks, hold them at head height and mobilize them. Have them swinging around, in a similar fashion to how an opponent would move. THEN, have him break the bricks. Moving target, no preparation time, etc. The target isn't in the same place, doing nothing except waiting for you to hit it with the strike of your choice. Also, gravity is no longer on your side.


Masters like Sifu Zhang and Bruce Li obviously tone their bodies with push ups and sits ups and have gained some muscle, however they would have been even faster if they had not.

BS. plain and simple.

From a boxers perspective, by all means build yourself up because punching from your guard and doing not much else requires little force training.

1. you're SUPPOSED to punch from your guard. leaving the face open will get you dropped.
2.It requires the same force training that anything else does. That force is gained via weight training, pushups, bagwork, body mechanics, etc.


However I refer to martial arts training here and not sports like boxing. Lets just get this clear, boxing is not a self defence system, it is not a martial art.

Let's try this - go to a boxing gym, thai boxing gym, etc. Tell them that what they do doesn't work, and they will gladly invite you to train with them. Come back and post results.

Also, if you think those arts are any less effective because they are "sports", you need a serious reality check.



Is Tyson slow? Yes, compared to a Kung Fu practitioner that spends the same time training as him.

So, YOU can punch faster and hader than he can?

Could Tyson break these bricks like Sifu Zhang? Perhaps, but not by just moving down his palm from one or two foot in the air.

Has he knocked out 44 people? Whether you can break a brick or not is really irrelevant.

As for punching from your guard and not your waist, I'm afraid it had been proven that the former gives you a greater punch, you may even try it yourself.

that's possible, since the hand has to travel ****her. However, you also leave half of your head open, which will get you KTFO.

I'm afraid your training, in your own words, is not optimized for MA.

Then you my friend, did not read my words. Strength training is not body building. body building is not optimized for MA.

If it were you would not need to do weights at all. There is a reason why you do not see bulky Kung Fu masters.

Most of the "masters" around today don't impress me and are nothing I'd want to emulate anyway...There are good ones out there, as with anything, some awesome ones, like yang jwing ming, but there is no set formula for becoming a master. Bulk doesn't translate to strength. Do you actually know what strength is? how is it measured? What is strength training? If you knew the answer to these, you would understand that strength training does not directly correlate to being huge and bulky.

What is your image of the master? Small and sleak, about 60 years old...still with the ability and health of a 20 year old?

Those 60 year olds don't really have the ability of a 20 year old. they have training time under their belt. Experience. That's what matters at that age. One of my judo coaches is 74. Who, by the way, is not slight of build at 6'2 and 190 lbs., but does he have my ability? Heck no. What he has is a perfect sense of timing and balance, and enough experience to know how to counter and neutralize what I am doing.

Bodybuilding is diminishing in old age and after all, unhealthy.

Nobody is talking about bodybuilding - I'm talking about strength training... reading is fundamental.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Golden_Leopard
Could you please explain to me the difference. Is not a quick punch a powerful one? How does one throw a slow powerful punch?

Now... think about what you said. Since Tyson is big, how does he have all of those KOs to his name? Could it be that he's NOT slow? Could it be that despite his size, he has enough speed and power to lay someone out? Dang, go figure...

also, remember that speed is only half of the equation. A fast punch alone isn't a hard one.

[WanderingMonk]

is quick punch a powerful punch?

doubtful, try to punch as fast as you can. faster you punch, the less power there is.

is slow punch a power punch?

a "slower" punch often can be more powerful because it was wanded up. try to throw a cross (reverse punch), it is slower than a jab, but it is more powerful.

people get their math wrong. KE = 1/2 m* v^2, but we are not playing with projectile motion here. your entire body is connected. we are dealing with momentum transfer , momentum = m*v. so, if I throw a punch with my whole body behind it (more mass), it might be a bit slow, but you can see a punch bag fly a lot further than if I throw a quick punch.

If the punch is sufficiently slow, it become a push, then it is not very useful. If you can punch very fast and still maintain your body structure, then it is truly a "powerful punch". If your punch is really fast and powerful, than you will be able to bend these punching bags. If it don't bend, you are really just "pushing" it. :). Faster punch transfer momentum into your target faster, the bag will has less time to dissipate the force (so the force goes into the bag), so the force will penetrate into the target furhter. If given suffiient force, it can cause a lot of damage. If the punch is really slow, although powerful, the force is dissipated and you only see the bag rocks back and forth.

it is all in your root and structure.

do some squats or horse stances

[Golden_Leopard]

blackmantis posted this question as a Kung Fu student on a Shaolin Kung Fu thread as I understand, therefore I am answering him by advising Kung Fu methods and not boxing or any other methods.

Weight training, I believe, even if it does not add bulk, is unhealthy for your internal energy flow. Severstar, as your suggested training offers little in the way of internal force training I am reluctant to give these arguments as you will probably laugh at them, nevertheless they are true. Lifting weights are damaging to your heart and lungs. The moment you struggle to lift a weight you begin to close your mouth and block great amounts of chi as you tense up to the challenge.

You are right in saying that internal and external training amounts to the same goal, but it is clear that internal training becomes so much more important in Kung Fu strikes. External strength is important, after all no matter how many Kung Fu patterns a child can perfectly perform he will still get defeated by any average adult in a fight. If he had internal force, it may be a different story. You do understand that it does not take an hours sit in a stance, a meditation then a breathing exercise to throw an internal punch, just an explosive burst.

I am not insulting boxing here, I am just explaining what it is which I am sure most boxers would agree. It is a sport not a MA, you hold your hands up and you have a punching match, it simply cannot be considered a good self defence system or combat effective in a real life situation. I'm sure a boxer could knock out a mugger but against a blocking MA system he would be left standing. Using Mike Tyson as an example for everything is a flaw as he is the best in his field so just because he could defeat me and defeat my Kung Fu class it doesn't mean that his training systems are better than mine. Would Yip Man be able to defeat you Sevenstar if he were here today? Could he punch harder than you? I'm afraid so, but does this prove that his methods are better than yours? Not exactly. However I am convinced that the benefits gained from a year of Kung Fu training would outweigh Tyson's career benefits in his first year.

"Your supposed to punch from your guard?" who said this? It does not actually leave the face wide open to attack, as standing in Kung Fu stances offers you various dodges and blocks capable of outwitting the only attack the boxer has.

Whether Tyson can break a bricks or not is irrelevant, because he doesn't need to train like that. He has knocked out 44 people because that is his job and he is good at it, and no doubt his punches are hard enough to knock people out. But believe it or not, an internal force punch from a Kung Fu practitioner if he has learned iron fist or iron palm is enough to kill in one blow. The art of Kung Fu is about the single blow that ends the fight thus it needs to be powerful. It is not like boxing or TKD where you get hit, it hurts a bit but you hit back. If you can't block a Kung Fu pattern you loose the fight, simple as that. That is what makes Kung Fu combat effective. GL

[Toby]

Bwahaha! Your post was great. I especially liked this bit:

Originally posted by Golden_Leopard
Would Yip Man be able to defeat you Sevenstar if he were here today? Could he punch harder than you? I'm afraid so ...
Have you seen pics of 7*? I would put money on 7* defeating Yip Man with one hand tied behind his back and I'm a student of WC. Even if Yip Man was clear-headed that day. Anyway, thanks for the laugh, not just in that quote but all through your post. Watch many KF movies?

[Banjos_dad]

But what if Tyson did kung fu. How bad would he be THEN??;)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk
is quick punch a powerful punch?

doubtful, try to punch as fast as you can. faster you punch, the less power there is.

is slow punch a power punch?

a "slower" punch often can be more powerful because it was wanded up. try to throw a cross (reverse punch), it is slower than a jab, but it is more powerful.

people get their math wrong. KE = 1/2 m* v^2, but we are not playing with projectile motion here. your entire body is connected. we are dealing with momentum transfer , momentum = m*v. so, if I throw a punch with my whole body behind it (more mass), it might be a bit slow, but you can see a punch bag fly a lot further than if I throw a quick punch.

If the punch is sufficiently slow, it become a push, then it is not very useful. If you can punch very fast and still maintain your body structure, then it is truly a "powerful punch". If your punch is really fast and powerful, than you will be able to bend these punching bags. If it don't bend, you are really just "pushing" it. :). Faster punch transfer momentum into your target faster, the bag will has less time to dissipate the force (so the force goes into the bag), so the force will penetrate into the target furhter. If given suffiient force, it can cause a lot of damage. If the punch is really slow, although powerful, the force is dissipated and you only see the bag rocks back and forth.

it is all in your root and structure.

do some squats or horse stances

Awesome explanation from our friendly neighborhood physicist!! :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Golden_Leopard
blackmantis posted this question as a Kung Fu student on a Shaolin Kung Fu thread as I understand, therefore I am answering him by advising Kung Fu methods and not boxing or any other methods.

Which is fine - I'm only asking for some explanation or documentation for some of the statements you are making. especially the hip thing, as when I was in CMA, we used the hip.

Weight training, I believe, even if it does not add bulk, is unhealthy for your internal energy flow. Severstar, as your suggested training offers little in the way of internal force training I am reluctant to give these arguments as you will probably laugh at them, nevertheless they are true.

Dont' assume anything - I used to train CMA, so try me. I don't laguh at anyone's explanation of anything, unless it's just blatantly stupid. My thing is if you say it, be able to provide some type of reference to support it.



Lifting weights are damaging to your heart and lungs. The moment you struggle to lift a weight you begin to close your mouth and block great amounts of chi as you tense up to the challenge.

closing your mouth and not breathing is known as the vasalva maneuver. Most lifters do not do this. There are some that will hold there breath on certain exercises, however, like the bench press, as this "pressurizes" the chest and assists in the lift.

You are right in saying that internal and external training amounts to the same goal, but it is clear that internal training becomes so much more important in Kung Fu strikes. External strength is important, after all no matter how many Kung Fu patterns a child can perfectly perform he will still get defeated by any average adult in a fight. If he had internal force, it may be a different story.

I dunno about that... even with his body 100 % into his punch, how much force internal or external can a 10 year old possibly muster? Also, his hand wouldn't be conditioned to withstand such impact - he would shatter it. It's my understanding that kids shuld not train iron palm. That being the case, he would hurt himself from the force of his own blow.


You do understand that it does not take an hours sit in a stance, a meditation then a breathing exercise to throw an internal punch, just an explosive burst.

same thing with an external one. strength is measured by how hard your neuromuscular system can contract. stronger people are merely producing stronger contractions - strength training trains you to produce such contractions, which is why you dn't have to be bulky.

Back to your point though, yes, I realize that. What I was talking about before was training time. Internal power is fine, but how long does it take to sufficiently cultivate and be able to use? perferct the mechanics, perfect the breathing, etc...

I am not insulting boxing here, I am just explaining what it is which I am sure most boxers would agree. It is a sport not a MA, you hold your hands up and you have a punching match, it simply cannot be considered a good self defence system or combat effective in a real life situation.

I'm not taking what you are saying as an insult, but that's just ridiculous... Why would you not consider it a MA as well as a martial sport? What is your definition of martial?


I'm sure a boxer could knock out a mugger but against a blocking MA system he would be left standing. Using Mike Tyson as an example for everything is a flaw as he is the best in his field so just because he could defeat me and defeat my Kung Fu class it doesn't mean that his training systems are better than mine.

Screw Tyson. Take an avg player. I'm in the gym 5 days a week. I am in MA classes for 11-15 hours a week, and here recently have been doing extra training with my MT coach 2 days a week. I spar twice a week, grapple every day, etc... On avg, the sport fighters I know train harder than traditional guys. It's not a knock at traditional stuff, but to say what I'm doing isn't martial? Why on earth isn't it?

Would Yip Man be able to defeat you Sevenstar if he were here today? Could he punch harder than you? I'm afraid so

Unfortunately, we'll never know.

However I am convinced that the benefits gained from a year of Kung Fu training would outweigh Tyson's career benefits in his first year.

This is one of those instances where I ask for supporting info... why would you think so?


Whether Tyson can break a bricks or not is irrelevant, because he doesn't need to train like that. He has knocked out 44 people because that is his job and he is good at it, and no doubt his punches are hard enough to knock people out. But believe it or not, an internal force punch from a Kung Fu practitioner if he has learned iron fist or iron palm is enough to kill in one blow.

Can you kill with one blow? I sure as heck can't. I don't know anyone who can either. Not on a consistent basis, anyway.


The art of Kung Fu is about the single blow that ends the fight thus it needs to be powerful. It is not like boxing or TKD where you get hit, it hurts a bit but you hit back.

Same with boxing. Do you think I WANT an opponent to take my punch and keep coming? No. But the reality of it is, you liekly are not gonna kill anyone with one blow. dim mak is fine, but are you good enough to hit such precise points on a moving, resisting opponent? Is your iron palm so powerful that you can kill me no matter where you hit me? If not, then after you hit me, I'm coming back after you.

If you can't block a Kung Fu pattern you loose the fight, simple as that. That is what makes Kung Fu combat effective. GL

The japanese have a saying - ichi-go; ichi-e - it means "one encounter, one chance" IDEALLY, that's how it should be. But, REALISTICALLY, how often is that the case?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Toby
Bwahaha! Your post was great. I especially liked this bit:

Have you seen pics of 7*? I would put money on 7* defeating Yip Man with one hand tied behind his back and I'm a student of WC. Even if Yip Man was clear-headed that day. Anyway, thanks for the laugh, not just in that quote but all through your post. Watch many KF movies?

:D

[SevenStar]

"Your supposed to punch from your guard?" who said this? It does not actually leave the face wide open to attack, as standing in Kung Fu stances offers you various dodges and blocks capable of outwitting the only attack the boxer has.

I didn't see this when I wrote my last reply. Yes the face is wide open for attack. Is your hand there? no. That means I have a chance to hit it. Can you move? Possibly - depends on how quick you are, but you are wide open regardless. By "the one attack a boxer has" I'm assuming you are referring to the fact that they only punch.

1. do you think the boxer will only fire one punch? you're not going to "outwit" anyone. Just as you were saying - If you don't block the combination, you will lose - boxers have a saying "punches in bunches". you will have a fluury of punches to slip, not just one.

2. boxers are just as mobile as you are, if not moreso. any stance you transition to, their footwork can get them there just as fast.

you really should go play with a few of them. play with some thai boxers also.