side stance vs. front stance

[Falcor]

Say, what do you prefer for a "fighting stance" - a side-leading stance or a front leading stance? By side leading, I man talking about a stance where one leg is defintely in front of the other, and your torso is turned to its side. Pro: smaller target area, easier to defend. Cons: weak side-to side coverage. By front stance, I mean a stance where the hips and shoulders a more or less square on with the opponent (although it may be a litle bit angled or turned, but not all the way). Pro: easier to use both sides of the body. Cons: larger taret area. Of course there are more Pros and cons for both, I'm sure. So what's your preference and why?

[Christopher M]

Of course, this depends on the situation, and outside of formalized practice, there doesn't tend to be 'fighting stances' which people assume before engaging one another. That said, generally - your hips and shoulders should be aligned to give you a good posture, and pointing at your opponent to maximize the force you can direct at him. Rather than 'squaring off' though, you should use positioning so that you have this posture with respect to him, but he does not have it with respect to you. That way, his ability to exert force against you is minimized, and you have also profiled yourself, but using angles rather than by impairing your posture.

[Judge Pen]

For basic students we teach the side stance first for the smaller target, etc., but I square up a bit more as I find it's more powerful and allows for a greater range of movement than the side stance which is great for forward/backward movement, but more awkward to move laterally.

[Ray Pina]

I think of them more as attitudes than "stances" because stances has a tendency to relate to a set or stagnate position.

My aproaching is normal. But upon closing I like to step into what looks like a side stance for an instance because it is longer -- the "T" formation. But the back foot quickly comes back in. Sort of like a bull fighter.

Side-to-side defense is not an issue. The alley way in which one can be hit is very narrow. The lead hand should be able to defend against strikes from either side.

Of course, things change and nothing is set in stone.

[SevenStar]

As jp said, mobility in the side stance is more awkward. Also, even though your target area is smaller, two of your weapons are now further away from your opponent. From a judo perspective, you can't throw anyone like that. From a thai boxing perspective, my power shots will be slower.

[Aaron Little]

Definitely more square. Kind of a combination between a boxer and a wrestler. I can strike and defend better from this “stance”. Movement is easier for me and it is easier for me to defend takedowns from this position.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Falcor
Say, what do you prefer for a "fighting stance" - a side-leading stance or a front leading stance? By side leading, I man talking about a stance where one leg is defintely in front of the other, and your torso is turned to its side. Pro: smaller target area, easier to defend. Cons: weak side-to side coverage. ...

I disagree with this - a side stance presents the back as a target area as well. It presents a smaller profile to front-on attacks, but swinging attacks (roundhouses etc) can still be used against the back. And as 7* has already pointed out, it puts two of your weapons further back. It also effectively only gives you one hand to defend with.

[Banjos_dad]

Side stance. Strong side fwd (I'm a lefty). Maybe I'll try front next sparring class (Monday).

[Judge Pen]

I think I only use the side stance transitionally as I'm sliding forward or backward, but I'll slip into a more natual position as soon as possible.

As far a swinging attacks they are, as 7* said slower and more powerful so you may have more time to counter them; however, the risk to reward ratio is higher as well.

[Vash]

Originally posted by joedoe


I disagree with this - a side stance presents the back as a target area as well. It presents a smaller profile to front-on attacks, but swinging attacks (roundhouses etc) can still be used against the back. And as 7* has already pointed out, it puts two of your weapons further back. It also effectively only gives you one hand to defend with.

Uh-Uh! You forgot about point figh-en!

Sweet chrimmany. Had a dude at my saturday class that I coach. used to be at our school, went to another guy's when he got in trouble for teaching a new kid a kata. Anyway. he wase talking about his fighting experiences, showed me his stance. His side was so fo far forward, I had a decent shot at his right kidney! Then , when I demonstrated the forward stance, he kinda chuckled and pointed out all the targets I had open. I asked him to to hit any of them whilst he was in that side stance. Now, I'm still a broke down ol' gimp, but in the time it took him to throwa friggin reverse punch, I stood up out of my stance, walked in straight past his guard, and stood nose to nose with him.

The point sparring tournaments have polluted karate! Garh!

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Vash


Uh-Uh! You forgot about point figh-en!

Sweet chrimmany. Had a dude at my saturday class that I coach. used to be at our school, went to another guy's when he got in trouble for teaching a new kid a kata. Anyway. he wase talking about his fighting experiences, showed me his stance. His side was so fo far forward, I had a decent shot at his right kidney! Then , when I demonstrated the forward stance, he kinda chuckled and pointed out all the targets I had open. I asked him to to hit any of them whilst he was in that side stance. Now, I'm still a broke down ol' gimp, but in the time it took him to throwa friggin reverse punch, I stood up out of my stance, walked in straight past his guard, and stood nose to nose with him.

The point sparring tournaments have polluted karate! Garh!

Obvioulsy he should have jumped up and thrown a backfist! That's the number on point-sparring technique and MUCH faster than his reverse punch! :D

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by SevenStar
As jp said, mobility in the side stance is more awkward. Also, even though your target area is smaller, two of your weapons are now further away from your opponent. From a judo perspective, you can't throw anyone like that. From a thai boxing perspective, my power shots will be slower.

And from a CMA perspective, you're just begging for someone to take your outside gate (big trouble for you)

[Ray Pina]

These are not necessarily given due to a side stance.

Any rounded attack is nuetralized quite easily by simply stepping in. Many times I'll aproach square and when the round hosue comes step in with what looks like a side stance. The force is jammed by stepping in and what's left is spread out across the back .... but the lead hand should be doing wedging anyway sending the kick upwards.

As far as outside gate, that can be taken anytime from anystance if the other guy is better. If I take a right lead and throw a committed heavy right and the guy breaks for my outside gate, I have to know that is my exposed weakness and right away step into it giving the guy the elbow, closing up that door.

Any move opens up an area. The importance is knowing that, and not reacting to the other: heavy right which glances off.... automiatically shut down the hole with the elbow and step in hopefully jamming things up and chi sau from there.

Not sure if I painted the proper mental picture here. But again, I stress NO Stances. Simply a moment in time.

[dodger87]

I'm just assuming this from all the clips i've downloaded so correct me if i'm wrong. But people who tend to punch more use front stance (eg. boxers) and people who tend to kick use side stance (eg. Kickboxers )?

[Judge Pen]

I think people who like fast front leg kicks, like a side, hook, or non MT roundhouse, feel comfortable in a side stance since these techniques are readily available; however, there are just has many kicks easily ready from a more forward stance and the rear leg techniques are generally more powerful. You can throw a rear leg kick from the side stance (most notably the roundhouse) but you need to open up your hips and shift forward so you are taking yourself out of the side stance for a moment to throw that technique.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist

As far as outside gate, that can be taken anytime from anystance if the other guy is better.

True, but it's a helluva lot easier to do if the pelvis is facing you at a 45 * angle (side stance) than if the pelvis is squared off to you (front stance)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by dodger87
I'm just assuming this from all the clips i've downloaded so correct me if i'm wrong. But people who tend to punch more use front stance (eg. boxers) and people who tend to kick use side stance (eg. Kickboxers )?

not really. In muay thai, we don't use that stance. The two kicks I use most roundhouse and teep are done effectively froma front stance, as can my hook and sidekick. I don't really use a hook kick anymore, but in my younger days I loved that kick. Now I only use it when playing with a newbie. The sidekick I use defensively.


Now, in my point fighting days, I used a side stance. Like JP said, I could shoot side, snapping roundhouse and hook kicks of pretty quickly off of that lead leg.

[shaolinboxer]

I try to avoid stances all together. I do bend my knees a bit, but I try to avoid picking a base stance.

[Judge Pen]

Any body position that you fight, move and guard out of is a stance even if its a transitional stance. If I have the benefit of squaring up in a ready stance prior to a fight, then I have my most comfortable stance, but it usually dissolves away quickly depending on the tone of the oppoent and what seems to be appropriate at the time.

[MasterKiller]

I fight from a front stance, mostly, but transition to a side stance when I want to setup a sweep or a spinning kick.

[Becca]

I tend to sqaure off with a front stance then slip into a side stance once I close in and /or get a good feel for what side my opponant is likely to favor. Then go back to a front stance when I'm atleast 1 1/2 striking distance away.

[SevenStar]

Why to you go into side stance when you are close? you are easier to throw in that stance.

[Ray Pina]

My master incorporates what he calls "a shooting stance," the position you would take shooting a hand gun. It has the benefits of both the side and square stance. I can maintain it on aproaching, but when I charge in to jam a kick I tend to over do it and wind up more sideways.

But that's why I'm training.

[dodger87]

Is there a stance that is in between these two? Like a diagonal stance?

[Judge Pen]

A "shooting stance" is a good way to describe the stance I tend to fight out of most of the time. It just feels very natural. I think one normally tends to end up in more of a side stance when jamming a kick. At least I do cause I use my hip to check their body when possible.

[Becca]

Originally posted by dodger87
Is there a stance that is in between these two? Like a diagonal stance?

San Chin is kind'a in between, but it's very aukward, IMO.

7*, I go side ways as I close in for abvious reasons. As far as why I stay that way after closing? I have no idea. It just feels more natural.

['MegaPoint]

I have to totally agree with Sev'. Having 50% of your arsenal taken away is never good. Another couple of things to look at. One, you can't protect that lead leg as well from a single-leg takedown. Using both hands to sprawl and protect (or strike), and being able to shoot your legs back is easier to do in a forward facing stance. The side-stance is a fairly solid stance against a push from the front (against the lead leg), but it is not as strong as a good natural length and width front stance, and is also weaker against a push from the side (to your body's anatomical anterior [face side of the body]).

Most importantly the cardinal rule of fighting is to not allow your opponent to "get your back". In a side-stance you are doing half the work for him. Your rear corner/quarter is right there. Bad strategy.

For sparring it can work; in point sparring. In real jiyu kumite you better be Superfoot, because ambidexterity is more practical than "one-sidedness". There is a 45 degree horse stance in Shorin Ryu (Kobayashi). It's a transitional and tegumi (Okinawan wrestling) stance done as kihon (basic) technique. Peace.

[Ray Pina]

I don't undestand why 50% of your arsenal has to be taken away.

As an example, look at Ba Gua's first palm change. There is a side that leads into the circle, but one of the points of the excersise is the train the back hand punching across the body, and getting power without having to hook it.

Also, the back leg can come up the center -- protecting your lower gate -- and attack anytime .... though I admit it is slower and easier to see, if done with good timing it has a lot of power as long as the weight and momentum are going forward..... ie, not leaning back for reach/hight.

[Mutant]

Take for example the famous navel battle between the German battleship Bismarck and the Brittish battleship HMS Hood.
The captain of the Hood steered the bow directly towards the Bismarck to minimize the exposed profile, making her a harder target to hit, and used the fore cannons to attack the Bismarck. The Bismarck's captain turned his battleship broadside to the Hood, increasing exposed area, but also bringing most of his available arsenal into play, all 8 cannons fore and aft as well as half of the other smaller side-mounted guns on the ship.
The Hood's captain underestimated the accuracy of the Bismark's guns and having effectively taken most of his available weapons out of play, was no match for the German battleship and was quickly sunk to the bottom of the North Atlantic.

Of course there are exceptions, but I think some of this lesson can be applied across the board for different types of combat.

[dwid]

Consider the sandpeople, who always ride their banthas in single file, to conceal their numbers.

;)

[Mutant]

Originally posted by dwid
Consider the sandpeople, who always ride their banthas in single file, to conceal their numbers.
;)

Excellent counter-point; hard to argue with that one. :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
I don't undestand why 50% of your arsenal has to be taken away.

As an example, look at Ba Gua's first palm change. There is a side that leads into the circle, but one of the points of the excersise is the train the back hand punching across the body, and getting power without having to hook it.

Also, the back leg can come up the center -- protecting your lower gate -- and attack anytime .... though I admit it is slower and easier to see, if done with good timing it has a lot of power as long as the weight and momentum are going forward..... ie, not leaning back for reach/hight.

your weapons are too far removed - takes them long to reach the target, causing them to telegraph. As I said earlier, the strikes will have greater power, but is that a trade that you are willing to make?

[Ray Pina]

Sometimes.

When I am performing ideally, calm, cool and collected, I'm not punching to punch you before you punch me. I jam, pin and then deliver a clean blow.

Or I come and throw a heavy blow making you deal with it and stick, then thow the other hand making you deal with it and stick but the first blow is inside the defenses already.

I have yet to lose a match and walk away and say, "the guy was too fast for me" or "I was just too slow."

It's always he's too big, and most recently, I was too **** tired and out of condition.

I agree if you take a TKD/karate side stance I see your back leg round house kick. But you know what, I see the same back leg kick from the square Tai Boxer. The man who beat me in my last San Da fight .... I jammed most of his round house kicks with a simple front kick .... all kicks that he delievered first, I saw and simply counter kicked to jam.

We are no aproaching the territory of, "When you are better than somebody it doesn't matter what you do, it's how you do it."

I don't like a side stance that would limit me. But I do like a shooter stance where both my fists are out in front and my feet are under me very naturally. I like this stance because it's not wide, you don't lose potential drive and distance. I believe if you start wide, you already give up mobility.

But I think this is a matter of preference and what one has come to find comfortable and beneficial.

[SevenStar]

Or I come and throw a heavy blow making you deal with it and stick, then thow the other hand making you deal with it and stick but the first blow is inside the defenses already.

Don't you think that would be accomplished more easliy through a more squared stance?

I have yet to lose a match and walk away and say, "the guy was too fast for me" or "I was just too slow."

It's not completely a speed issue - it's timing. you are throwing a strike from left field. Not only do I see it, I have time to move. I'm not necessarily faster.

I agree if you take a TKD/karate side stance I see your back leg round house kick. But you know what, I see the same back leg kick from the square Tai Boxer. The man who beat me in my last San Da fight .... I jammed most of his round house kicks with a simple front kick .... all kicks that he delievered first, I saw and simply counter kicked to jam.

yeah, you can see kicks from a squared stance - they're not invisible. But seeing it and having time to block it are two different things.

I don't like a side stance that would limit me. But I do like a shooter stance where both my fists are out in front and my feet are under me very naturally. I like this stance because it's not wide, you don't lose potential drive and distance. I believe if you start wide, you already give up mobility.

nothing wrong with that stance. It's nowhere near as limiting as the side stance.