Is southern mantis better than northern.

[dturner]

What are the diffrences between these styles.

[dturner]

and whats the diffrence between northern kung fu and southern.

[iron fist mike]

to be honest , the two are nothing alike . popular northern mantis systems are 7 star , 8 step and 6 harmonies.
the northern styles of PM imitate the insect , utilizing the mantis hook , fast hand and leg techniques , agile footwork , generally considered one of the most effective and complete northern styles. i'd suggest reading about it on the net .
southern PM styles dont imitate the insect , and most use pheonix eye fist instead of the usual fist of most styles( index finger knuckle extended) most southern PM emphasize the legs being more rooted and more hand techniques rather than leg techniques, unpredictable and powerfull hand techniques . kicks are usually used with similtaneous hand techniques to make them very hard to see coming , and are usually to the legs , groin and at the highest the heart. i have found that SPM styles usually have similar principles to the white crane styles of the south. but different techniques.common southern systems are chu gar, chow gar and bamboo temple.
http://www.shaolin.com/page.asp?content_id=975

[Jook Lum]

I have seen this and other articles claiming that the northern style
imitates the mantis insect,while the southern style does not resemble
or imitate the movements,spirit or aspects of a mantis insect and i say this statement is completely wrong and also a very misinformed
statement.

[Sam]

Not only does Southern Mantis reflect mantis movement and spirit but applies it without any Northern or Southern outside Kung Fu influence. I heard that Mantis came from one source. Sam Dot-Lee Siem-Wang Lang. This was out of Kwong Sai Jook Lum Gee Tong Long Pai Temple.

[ZhouJiaQuan]

Yes....

ha

(no real way to answer this question universally. its an opinion, at a best a value judgment based on some criteria that not everyone will agree with, nor would they agree with the decisions based on those critera...

example: criteria - asthetics... i might think nothern is prettier then southern. and others might think southern is prettier then nothern...


:confused: :D

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Southern Mantis is a phoney mantis style that does not imitate the insect in anyway. Like someone had said - it uses the pheonix eye fist instead. It's like you ordered a chocolate milkshake and you get vanilla ice cream with the waiter insisting that it's chocolate milkshake. Or it's like someone pi$$ing on your back and then telling you that it's raining.

Northern mantis is like kick boxing. The southerners needed something called mantis so they being dumb @ss farmers that they are, they added a pheonix eye fist to bak choy kuen and called it mantis.

Farmers are too slow in their wit to make their feet move fast. therefore southern mantis is not very agile.

[Chin Chung Cao]

Ego, I'm not sure what Southern Mantis you've trained in (if any), to make the statment that south mantis is not very agile. Based on what I've been taught and what I have seen of Southern Mantis I'd have to disagree with you. Southern Mantis make's ample use of the knee's, elbow's, and feet in striking. The footwork is quite nimble and very mobile when needed. As for the pheonix eye fist, it's only one of many striking area's used. The late Grandmaster of Jook Lum in this country, Lam Sang See, was a fan of western boxing and admired the footwork. Anyone familiar with his teaching know's that, perhap's different teacher's emphsize other aspect's of his practice, but to say that it's not an agile system is incorrect. As for your thought's on Southerners being dum@ass farmer's who "needed" something called mantis(Why?), throwing a pheonix eye fist to Bak Choy kuen to make mantis is laughable.
As for the original question of which is better north or south, it's not the style but the individual that make's the system "better or worse". Both are good, find the one you enjoy and embrace it.
Peace All

[cerebus]

Dude, Ego's a troll who just says stupid things to get a response outta people (like he did outta you ;) ). Just ignore him.

[iron fist mike]

Southern Praying Mantis Kung Fu had its origins during the Ming Dynasty and was taught only to members of China's royal family. At the time, the system was known as Jew Gar (sometimes pronounced Chu Gar, Chuka or the royal family kung fu).

With the advent of the cold-blooded Ching Dynasty, the Emperor and his family fled to the Northern Shaolin Temple to escape certain death at the hands of the Manchurians. But the forces of the Ching followed. Knowing that the revolutionary spirit was being nurtured within the confines of the Shaolin monastery, the Ching burned the Northern Temple to the ground. The royal family escaped and moved to the Fukien Shaolin temple of Southern China.

Knowing the forces of the Ching were looking for Chuka practitioners, the system's name was changed to Southern Praying Mantis, in hopes of fooling the Manchurians into believing that their style was the same as the popular Northern Praying Mantis. Still, the Manchurians pursued and burned the Southern temple also. A number of the royal family escaped and went into hiding. They became known in Southern China as "Hakka", or northern guests.

From that time on, the art of Southern Praying Mantis was taught secretly to Hakka only, for fear that Manchurian spies would betray them. In Hong Kong, Southern Praying Mantis was primarily taught only to Hakka descendants. This rule was later expanded to include students that were of Chinese heritage. It is only in the past 25 years that occidental students have been taught the Southern Praying Mantis system.

Unlike Northern Praying Mantis, the Southern style bears no resemblance to the insect, and is strictly a short-hand system. It is both an internal and external style, capable of delivering internal force similar to a compressed spring that has an explosive force when released. It follows internal principles such as using condensed breathing for energy, flow-relaxed hand techniques, and borrows the enemies’ strength to uses against them. The style also follows external principles, as it features dynamic tension-type exercises to build power and develop muscular strength for attack and defense.

Although recognized as an in-fighting style with the ability to explode power in any direction form short distances, the system's method also extends the arm longer than most northern styles by constantly rounding the back and stretching the arms, shoulders and rib cage, and also by shifting body angles for extension. Hence, the ability to use explosive force at short and longer than usual distances is developed.

Southern Praying Mantis is quick, direct, and effective. Chuka practitioners do not give their opponent a chance to deliver more than one blow. The practitioner attacks rapidly until his opponent falls and is disabled. The theory is to get your opponent off balance and not let him regain it. At the same time, the practitioner shifts in close and attacks with many rapid-fire short strikes. The opponent must desperately try to ward off this barrage of machine-gun like blows; however, the Chuka practitioner will not stop until the attacker is down.

Speed is essential. All attacks come from the elbows. The fist is not withdrawn to the waist as in karate and other Kung Fu systems, as the practitioner must be able to hit many times from the same position.

Chuka practitioners do not, themselves, draw back either – this is too slow. Instead, the practitioner slides forward and shifts his weight from side to side, backward and forward with each attacking punch. Instinctive reaction is vital due to the speed of the attack. The exponent of this art is hard to defend against. At one moment he may be upright, dodging quickly to one side. The next moment he may drop into a kneeling stance to attack lower areas without thinking what his opponent's next move will be. He then acts quickly to close all avenues of attack.

Basically a close-in fighting system, Southern Praying Mantis is known for its one-inch punch, similar to the punch Bruce Lee used so much. It also uses a variety of open-handed techniques and specialized hand movements, such as the ginger-fist, three-finger spear, and bamboo slicing hand, all of which attack the body's vital points. These strikes can cause paralysis, as well as cut off blood flow and distribution of chi to vital areas of the body.

At the heart of the rare Chuka Shaolin style is the phoenix-eye fist. The Chuka art makes no use of the popular clenched-fist attack seen in other styles, rather preferring to exclusively use this extended index-finger knuckle to strike the enemy. This single-knuckle attack allows the Chuka exponent to focus his energy to the one small area covered by the knuckle, rather than the larger area covered by the entire fist. It might be referred to as "acupuncture boxing", due to the fact that the phoenix-eye fist is used to strike vital acupuncture centers in rapid succession. When used in combination with various kicks, palm and finger strikes, Chuka Shaolin becomes a very effective art that aims its attacks only at an opponent's vital points.

Southern Praying Mantis kicks are all low and below the waist. This is done in order to maintain balance and speed. Low kicks are harder to block, because the practitioner always uses them with simultaneous hand techniques. Chuka Southern Praying Mantis is a complete and effective fighting system with soft and hard aspects uniquely interwoven into the style. It is ideal for men and women of all ages. Simple, basic mechanics make it easy to practice regardless of age, physique, or sex. It is a highly effective, easy-to-use method of self-defense. It is also a superb form of training for health and overall physical fitness.

[David]

The last post is stolen from Jane Hallander's book except where it says Chuka, the book says southern mantis :D.

I know this because I stole some of it too to use as a background to a poster I made. Changed a bit here and a bit there :o

Rgds,
David

[iron fist mike]

not stolen....just borrowed from a website
http://www.reddragonkungfu.com/chuka.htm

;)

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Mike,

I see you've learned the copy and paste routine but not the read and reason. If southern mantis were so effective, why hide and practice in secret. Perhaps they just didn't dare get close enough to the troops to use it.

That's right, they thought a simple name change would fool the enemy. How stupid is that.

[ZhouJiaQuan]

Everyone knows that nothern mantis is just for show, with no real substance. all that fancy movement just waste. looks like opera...


haha :rolleyes:

(edit: for those wondering, this was a troll twds Ego. I have no illwill twds nothern mantis, its kinda sweet actually.)

[mysteri]

Originally posted by ZhouJiaQuan
Everyone knows that nothern mantis is just for show, with no real substance. all that fancy movement just waste. looks like opera...


haha :rolleyes:

si dai,

it is not polite for jow ga men to speak ill of our gung fu brethren. this is most disrespecftful and immature!

besides, that's what TKD and krotty forums are for!!

:D;):D

[ZhouJiaQuan]

no worries, its sarcasm. i wanted to troll ego haha. i was bored... ;)

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

ZhouJiaQuan:

Farmers from the south tried in vain to imitate all the fancy movements but in the end settled for imitating the name.

One thing I'll say about southern mantis is their strength in conditioning exercises. In regualr training, they'll spear their fingers in hot sand and practice chun choy kuen (iron head fist). In fact that's all they'll do, condition their hands and then other parts of their body.

Northern mantis relies on foot work, like a western boxer not to get hit. If a northern mantis gets cornered, they'll cover up and roll with the punches. Bouncing on your toes gives you mobility like boxercise.

Southern mantis will take the blows because they are not as fast on their feet.

[ZhouJiaQuan]

As far as my historical knowledge of southern mantis, It developed completley independent of nothern mantis.

Hence, your statement,


[They]tried in vain to imitate all the fancy movements but in the end settled for imitating the name.

is false.


(hehe this is fun) ;)

[htowndragon]

first of all to ego-
if you think SPM is so inefficient and ineffective, please feel free to come down to houston and fight anyone at my si gung henry poo yee's mantis school. u can fight others, but i have no affiliation with them and therefore have no idea if they accept challenges.

you trolls smoke too much...and they say us teenagers are always on drugs...

second about SPM and mantis

- i personally feel the movement of the body in SPM make it resemblea mantis more than northern styles do.

third who is better?

-i hate these questions. how can you say one style is better? every style has its own legacy. one style may take longer to perfect than others like taiji "taiji shi nian bu chu, tai ji does not come out for ten years", but this does not mean in the end one style is "better" than another. you would never find out, for most masters have cross trained at least two styles. my sifu for one, was one of the disciples of gong bao zhai (gong bao tian bagua chuan) in taiwan, and his proficiency in bagua allowed him to learn other styles faster, for he was able to find teh connection between them. right now he belongs to the last group of discipes of si gong henry poo yee, and due to his internal background, is able to grasp the internal essence of jook lum. skill builds over time, and one can of course gain high skill with just one style. but is southern mantis really more "deep" than northern? if one looks at the known masters today of southern and northern, in my opinion the sotuhern have reached a higher level of gong fu. this is not to discredit teh northern at all, and realise i said KNOWN masters. james syun of eight step mantis is also highly skilled. his teacher wei hsiao tang in the past was reportedly to have fought 70+ people and managed to injur many. wei hsiao tang is a prime example of northern skill.

[Jook Lum]

Hello htowndragon! Hopefully Ego will accept your offer(highly doubt
it)and if Ego feels Houston might be conveniently too far for him to
go then if Minnesota is any closer to Ego then he may also come here
and test my hands or others at the St.Paul school.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

htowndragon,

first: I stand by what I say about southern mantis.

Second: What sort of kung fu practitioner are you to issue a challenge but getting your poor old si gung to fight in your place. You are a joke.

thrid: But to be totally serious with you, if you dare issue a personal challenge with me, I will accept and defeat you even though I'm in a wheel chair.

[ZhouJiaQuan]

Be careful... Ego is good...




but only at being a troll...


;)

serisouly hes gotten good at this trolling thing. see how he avoids certain points, then changes others (ie the si gung fighting thing)... possibly its just poor reading comprehension, but i think the first possibility is more likely

[htowndragon]

this is my last reply to ego cuz this is the only first time i have talkin to him and i am already tired of him.

i dont represent southern mantis, i have not yet begun fully training spm, i only train the tin sing chi kung and a few hands.

i am currently training gong bao tian bagua, and my sifu has told me that i must complete one or at least reach a certain level in one style before training the other, and it makes perfect sense. in other words, fighting me would prove nothing about SPM

about challenging me, well im 16 and if you came looking for me my mom would freak out and use her mama fu and kick ur ass before i could even get my shoes tied. so ya no challenge.

do u always like to twist peoples words?

y hasnt gene banned this guy?

ego, how high did you score on your SATs?

[David]

ego is a dysfunctional sophist *******. He can kiss my ass from his chair if he can't see the point in respecting others. All the time he spends typing on here is a waste of oxygen.

I say this because I love him.

-David

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

htowndragon,

You should listen to your sifu and not pick fight when you're not ready. Your sifu might have been beaten enough times to know not to mess with northern kung fu.

In anycase, you need parental consent from your mummy, that's only if she remembers to tie your shoe lace. If she's in a bad mood, you probably go to bed hungry without dinner.

Fancy that, a mummy's boy trying to be tough by learning southern kung fu. You're nothing but a mummy's boy and probably a cry baby that gets picked on at school by juniors and girls.

David,

It sounds like htowndragon has now gotten you to take up the challenge on his behalf. It looks like you're on the way of accepting this - which makes you an @ss kissing fool.

[htowndragon]

first off about the not ready thing, well probably so. i guess growing up being trained in houston's chinatown and crossing hands with peopel for 7 years doesn't really count does it? but of course i can't measure up to your ultimate northern skill which is so much better than wei hsiao tangs eight step mantis descendants, han ching tan tai zu long fist people, northern shaolin people.. (rambles on the different styles in chinatown)..

why you hate the southern styles so much? is it just mantis? or southern in general? and i never said northern sucked i clearly stated that it depends on the person and i wasn't picking sides. i don't purely do southern mantis. hell, im still training my bagua before my sifu will let me train mantis, but like you, im just sticking up to what i believe which is, it depends on the person, there is no one that is "better".

btw ego, wut style do u do

[htowndragon]

Originally posted by dturner
and whats the diffrence between northern kung fu and southern.

i am currently writing a book for a school project on the origins and history of chinese martial arts. i included a section on the differences when talkin about mantis:

1. In Northern China, the weather was cold, and the ground was more solid. Because of this, the people could afford to move around more, and have "longer bridges" and longer movements.

2. Southern China was more icy, and people traveled on boats a lot. Take wing chun for instance, many of the early practioners were opera people on the "junks". therefore the couild not move around as freely, and had to maintan close contact to their opponent, and moved in shorter steps.

there is a saying "northern legs, southern fist", but every good style manages to blanace this out. every good style has three energys, long, short and middle, but the outter characteristics are still pretty accurate.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

htowndragon,

No you probably can't measure up to even a 7 year old because you can't tie even your shoe lace and have to run to your mummy for protection.

You ain't one bit like me. I was in nam at your age doing real sh1t.

I think your school project is cr@p. China is a big place, were exactly is the northern ground more solid than the south? It is true that some southern styles were developed on boats. The boats were called junks because they became closely associated with those styles. They performed in operas instead of fighting the government soldiers because they're junk.

[CaptinPickAxe]

How does someone bound to a wheelchair use all of the high flying kicks and spins? Maybe you should take up boxing.

[cerebus]

LOL! The closest Ego has been to "Nam" is sitting on his couch watching war movies on Pay-Per-View!:D And, no, he's not in a wheelchair (he's not even old enough to have ever been in the Vietnam conflict, though he may have changed his birthdate on his profile, I haven't checked recently). He's just a troll out trolling for responses by saying foolish things which he knows are foolish, that's all.

[CaptinPickAxe]

I was gonna say...

[Ben Gash]

Htowndragon, you've never been to southern China have you? It never freezes, the temperature never drops below 7 celsius. As opposed to the north, where it snows heavily every winter. Why's Wing Chun the way it is? Because it's descended from Fujian systems, which often utilise the same stances, nothing to do with boats at all.
Which is better, northern or southern mantis? I don't know, I find them both unnattractive, and I'm sure they're both just as effective in a fight.
Here's a thought, is southern mantis more about the internal anmimal character? While there's little physical mimicry in SPM, I can see how some techniques would imply a mantis spirit or flavour. This is true of certain other animal styles, so maybe here as well.

[htowndragon]

nope. never been to china, my family is from taiwan and are scared sh1tless of the political crap so i wont be going until 2008 with my sifu for the olympics.

as i recall, both parts of china are cold, and i had a friend from fujian told me that it gets very cold there. and as for the wing chun thing, i am positive im correct on that. the "junks" and all. well, maybe that isnt the complete reason, but i know that it is part of the reason. (interviewed many reputable wing chun schools)

[Mika]

Well, everything always depends on definitions, doesn't it? ;)

Cold...I used to live on the Gulf of Mexico for a few years. In the wintertime, it got to be below freezing a few times. They say it also snows once every 5-10 years, but the snow doesn't stick. Well, given the fact that the summers are scorching hot and humid (by any standards), it is no surprise then that the locals thought it was really, really cold during some of those winter months. As for me, I loved it...:cool:

But to say both parts of China are cold is a little peculiar as that would indicate they are cold by the same definition. In the case of China, that might not be the case. Of course, then we would have to define "north" and "south" first, but...

Fuzhou is in Fujian. Annual lows are above freezing (http://www.travelchinaguide.com/climate/fuzhou.htm), so it isn't all that "icy"..(except if the Gulf Coast is "snowy" then, too...;) )

Here's some more weather info on China: http://www.travelchinaguide.com/climate/index.htm

Not that this whole thing really is a big deal or anything, but to correct any possible misunderstandings...

Peace :cool:

Mika

[Mika]

Originally posted by Ben Gash
Which is better, northern or southern mantis? I don't know, I find them both unnattractive, and I'm sure they're both just as effective in a fight.


Really? Hmm...I mean, it's a matter of personal opinion, of course, but since you are a Choy Lee Fut fighter (right?) I would think you might appreciate some Northern Mantis a little as there are quite a few similarites, from my limited experience - as well as there are differences.

http://www.mantismartialart.com/demofight-2.WMV

Like that at all? No matter, just curious...;)

//mika

[CFT]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
You ain't one bit like me. I was in nam at your age doing real sh1t.A good job he is not like you, because he would be a liar!

Your profile says you were born in December 1960, which means you could only volunteer or be drafted when you were 16, i.e. December 1976. I'm not sure how long basic training is in the US armed forces, but it should take at least 2-3 months, which means you couldn't possibly have been in Vietnam before March 1977.

But Saigon fell at the end of April 1975, effectively signalling the end of US involvement in Vietnam. You would have been 2 years too late to see action. See http://servercc.oakton.edu/~wittman/chronol.htm for a timeline.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

CFT:

I had to lie about my age to sign up for nam. I was a big guy for my age.

Ben Gash:

You have not been to china. The last I heard you're an english boy trying to learn french.

htowndragon:

ben Gash is right, so stop trolling kiddo. Southern china is much warmer than the north. If you haven't figured out what's hot or cold you have no hope.

In anycase, why do you want to learn southern kung fu when it's clearly junk kung fu. I am one who is prepared to rock the boat. It's about time someone spoke out.

Mika:

Are you saying that people fight differently when it's hot or cold. That could be why Russians do a lot of wrestling to keep nice and warm. Whereas, wing chun does short and abbreviated movements because in the south it doesn't take much to work up a sweat.

CLF was developed when wing chuners fell off their junks and into the water. Those poor ole farmers who could not swim thrashed around until they drowned. their threshing around became clf.

[Brad]

lol, anyone ever seen ego's old website?

[htowndragon]

htowndragon:

ben Gash is right, so stop trolling kiddo. Southern china is much warmer than the north. If you haven't figured out what's hot or cold you have no hope.

In anycase, why do you want to learn southern kung fu when it's clearly junk kung fu. I am one who is prepared to rock the boat. It's about time someone spoke out.


STOP TROLLING KIDDO????? LMAO (isnt that what youve been doing.....). i have nothing to hide i am who i say i am. 16 year old chinese american from htown. disciple of eugene chou. i am actaully well known in houstons chinese community. why do i want to learn "southern styles"? well did you know that bagua came from SOUTHERN 18 lohan from the FUJIEN TEMPLE? (most people insist that bagua is northern, but its roots are sotuhern).

AND WHAT STYLE DO YOU DO ANYWAY???????????



ok about the southern thing, wing chun, southern mantis, etc. was practiced more in the guangzhou province rather than fujien. it seems that the weather is not that hot in either of those places, but a lot of them DID travel by boat.

[CFT]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
I had to lie about my age to sign up for nam. I was a big guy for my age.Nice try, but from the previous Vietnam chronolgy website:

March 29, 1973
Last U.S. combat troops leave Vietnam.

There is no way a 12 year old can lie about being 16, no matter how big they are for their age.


CLF was developed when wing chuners fell off their junks and into the water. Those poor ole farmers who could not swim thrashed around until they drowned. their threshing around became clf. No, the creation story for CLF doesn't involve Wing Chun at all. CLF is a synthesis of Choy/Li family styles and Shaolin.

I know you enjoy trolling, but this is just too easy :D

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

CFT:

I lied about my age then and now.

That kiddo seems to think so ( creation story of CLF has to do with wing chun). Some people think that clf was created in 6 days and the farmer rested on the 7th. Based on it's quality, it seems about right.

htowndragon:

No, you're the kiddo and you're a troll. btw, cft thinks you're wrong with your creation story of clf. ever learned the theory of evolution at school or perhaps southern kung fu has reached it's evolutionary dead end.

What has being well known in the chinese community at Houston got to do with kung fu kiddo? It's either you're the runt of the litter hence infamous amongst the community members - picking challenges on the forum or you're a darn good @ss kisser with to your uncles.

The southerners knew ba gua was good so they fabricated a history to claim it as their own. Just as the southerners knew that northern mantis was good so they did a name change on their style and called it mantis. see the trend there kiddo?

Brad:

I haven't because I don't have a website.

[cerebus]

Did you guys know that Ego is a big Smurf fan? He loves Smurfs! He sings the Smurf song all time. He even uses the word "Smurfy" in conversations. And at night he falls to sleep tucked into his bed all cuddled up with his favorite plush Smurf dolls. True. :p :p

[CFT]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
I lied about my age then and now.Yes, you were not 16 in 1972; you're probably 16 now rather than 43.

Your use of language and immaturity suggests this.


That kiddo seems to think so ( creation story of CLF has to do with wing chun). Some people think that clf was created in 6 days and the farmer rested on the 7th. Based on it's quality, it seems about right.You're not Hakka by any chance? You seem to have a culturally inherited hatred of the Southern Chinese, especially if they're farmers and/or martial artists.

If you read any online article or book on Choy Li Fut, including the Kung Fu magazine e-zine, you will find that CLF has nothing to do with Wing Chun.


htowndragon:

No, you're the kiddo and you're a troll. btw, cft thinks you're wrong with your creation story of clf. ever learned the theory of evolution at school or perhaps southern kung fu has reached it's evolutionary dead end.htowndragon made no mention of CLF. The incorrect creation story of CLF was proposed by you, along with a diatribe against Southern Chinese farmers.

There is no evolutionary dead end to Southern Chinese kung fu or any other martial art, as long as the practitioners continue to train realistically, be able to apply their art against a resisting opponent, take on board new training practices and innovate where necessary.

Next .... :D

[Ben Gash]

Shows how much you know Kelvin, I lived in HK for 2 1/2 years :p Haven't you got an ex to stalk?
Mika, I quite like some 8 steps stuff which is somewhat similar, but 7 stars never really does it for me (and I've done both).
Htown dragon, the junk story is part of Wing Chun Lore, so even very respectable teachers will tell you it. The truth is that Wing Chun lineage was within the red junk opera for a time, but the stances in Wing Chun are all but identical to those found in Fujian Crane or Wuzhuquan.

[htowndragon]

correction about my southern/northern thing: soutehrn is more humid, there is less space, ground more muddy, therefore they use less lower body movement. MY BAD!!!!! lol sorry for the wrong info.

yeah i have noticed a lot of similarities between white cane, southern mantis, white eyebrow, southern dragon, wing chun, five ancestors, etc. i have heard that the "siem kuen" (zen/chan fist) of jook lum tong long and five ancestors fist came form the same source. as for three arrow step sam bo jim (san bu jien in mandarin), i know that jook lum (zhu lin) is not the only pai to have that form ( if i remeber correctly, white crane has it too). i have heard that okinawan karate has a three step form (which they learned from white crane and oen of the forms they kept more pure).

o and ego makes me laff. that guy cant read.

[guy incognito]

Ive never studied NPM so I wont tell you what it is not. Instead I will tell you what SPM is. To say that SPM doesnt imitate the movement of the praying mantis is just plain wrong. The hanging out of the arms and crushing in/ripping out movements of the Sarm bo jin are evidence of this. The use of the drop fist also illustrates my piont. Also the aggresive and evassive tactics the mantis displays are employed in the system(Chow Gar). I have seen demonstrations of NPM and have to say that it looks pretty effective even though I dont understand a lot of the movements. I like to think of NPM practisioners as cousins not rivals. The fact that we have both claimed the insect does not mean that we cant share it. So to conclude the movements of the mantis are present in SPM just not as obvious due to the compact nature of the techniques.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Cerebus:

It seems like you're a troll.

CFT:

I'm not aware of chinese to know that hakka dislikes southerners. I always thought that hakka was a war dance by the New Zealand natives.

BenGash:

You're a troll who probably stalks girls in real life not to mention having an unhwholesome interest in the goktimus website.


htowndragon:

It must be the case then that you won't want to do big movements when it's humid or when you're in a boat. The southerners also got it all mixed up will chinese opera which happened to originate from red junks. Those style you mentioned are junk boat styles from farmers who turned fishermen. Cerebus is disagreeing with you as he probably thinks you're a syupid kiddo.

guy incognito:

So you're speaking out of ignorence. SPM doesn't look like a mantis at all. where's the famous hook hand hold in that style. Instead it's replaced by a boring pheonix eye fist.

[David]

Southern Mantis does often look like the insect its named after and its techniques take after it even more.

No time like the present to get a life, ego extranious.

Rgds,
David

[Jook Lum]

The empty vessel makes the most noise!

And wow are you loud!


The best part about it is that you are actually in your posts having
an argument with yourself and losing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ben Gash]

Oh, sweet irony :)

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

David,

No it doesn't look like a mantis. the hand shape is all wrong. If you want to be good with your hands, it's best to learn western boxing, it can take the spm head clean off.

Jook Lum,

It is southern kung fu that bangs on gongs and drums to make plenty of noise with dressed up lion in a deafening fanfare. Accordingly I have to 'speak loud' on this forum to such practitioners.

Losing? who's keeping score.

Ben Gash,

What irony, no takers for your fetish over goktimus. It's sad to think that you studied his pictures to point out his faults. He must have really gotten under your skin, might even by your ex-boy friend.

[CFT]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
It is southern kung fu that bangs on gongs and drums to make plenty of noise with dressed up lion in a deafening fanfare. Accordingly I have to 'speak loud' on this forum to such practitioners.There are "Northern" lions as well, not just Southern ones!

[htowndragon]

cuz hez scared. :o

[Ben Gash]

Can't you come up with anything more constructive than random personal attacks? Oh, wait, I forgot, you're a languages teacher.

[David]

Ego, I've been studying spm for over 6 years and can confirm that it has many methods that resemble the praying mantis insect. Dao sao, gao choi, clawing progessions/seizing & twisting setups, the emphasis of the elbow in whipping out pain and the general suddenness of it all.

Statically, npm may have a more mantid appearance but you see spm respond to an attack and you'll know what I mean.

Are you learning, today?

Rgds,
David

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

CFT:

Northern kung fu came from the military, there was no time to lion dance. true some jing mo schools adopted lion dancing, but those schools are sadly diluted. I don't consider them northern kung fu.
It seems like it is sourtherns are a bunch of gongs making the most noise.

htowndragon:

Learn to spell kiddo. you ain't been to nam, you don't know what scared means. Your greatest fear is pimples on your face.

Ben Gash:

But your attacks are off target. I'm not goktimus / kelvin or whoever you make me up to be. Typical southern fool, slow, poor aim and ineffective.

David:

Clawing, siezing and twisting are found in all arts. After the years you have learned, the kiddo had correctly pointed out that spm is similar to wing chun in movement. As a result you try to move fast but sacrifice power. 6 years of spm and what have you learned that couldn't be achieved in 6 weeks of kick boxing?

[brothernumber9]

Ego Extrodinaire

You seem to know alot about kung fu. How did you learn so much about all the different styles?

[David]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire David:

Clawing, siezing and twisting are found in all arts. After the years you have learned, the kiddo had correctly pointed out that spm is similar to wing chun in movement. As a result you try to move fast but sacrifice power. 6 years of spm and what have you learned that couldn't be achieved in 6 weeks of kick boxing? [/B]

Take the cork out of your ass.

If everyone had the attitude that you take then 2 weeks of kickboxing could defeat them no matter how many years training they have. Don't project your inadequacies onto the rest of the world or you may end up with a twisted view of reality... Oh, I see... Nevermind. :rolleyes:

love,
David

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

brothernumber9:

I dedicated my life to learning fighting arts. as such I have travelled to remote parts of the world to learn from the masters.

David:

I give you the benefit of the doubt that the inadequacy is your style and not you. A kick boxer will simply chop away at your legs and there is nothing you can do about it. Even Ben Gash knows that and will agree every time.

[CFT]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
CFT:
I'm not aware of chinese to know that hakka dislikes southerners. I always thought that hakka was a war dance by the New Zealand natives.Then you can't be very knowledgeable about Northern and Sourthern Mantis. References to the Hakka Chinese frequently pop up in both arts.


htowndragon:
Learn to spell kiddo. you ain't been to nam, you don't know what scared means. Your greatest fear is pimples on your face.You haven't been to Vietnam either! As I pointed out in a previous post in this thread, there is no way that a 12 year old (which you were at the time the USA ceased combat operations in Vietnam), would have seen action in Vietnam.

How old are you? Do the candles still fit on the birthday cake your mommy bakes you?

[CFT]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
CFT:
I'm not aware of chinese to know that hakka dislikes southerners. I always thought that hakka was a war dance by the New Zealand natives.Then you can't be very knowledgeable about Northern and Sourthern Mantis. References to the Hakka Chinese frequently pop up in both art.


htowndragon:
Learn to spell kiddo. you ain't been to nam, you don't know what scared means. Your greatest fear is pimples on your face.You haven't been to Vietnam either! As I pointed out in a previous post in this thread, there is no way that a 12 year old (which you were at the time the USA ceased combat operations in Vietnam), would have seen action in Vietnam.

How old are you? Do the candles still fit on the birthday cake your mommy bakes you?

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

CFT:

I'm aware of Haka references that's why I seriously doubt your sweeping statement that "they" dislike southerners can hold true. In any case, racial tension has nothing to do with kung fu.

I wasn't 12 during the vietnam war. I had made that clear to you private in the last post. Obviously your comprehension is way below your age what ever it may be.

[David]

Racial tension has everything to do with kung fu and there is likely no better example than the case of the Hakka who went to the extent of training all their citizens in martial arts just because none of their Southern neighbours liked them or left them alone.

Sometimes the Hakka startd trouble themselves - such as raids on neighbours to secure food. But it was because the neighbours were antagonistic to them that the Hakka had to resort to this tactic.

Hakka women forced the retreat of an invading army on one occasion after the main hakka force (the men) were drawn into battle in the opposite direction. Afterwards. The women were celebrated as heroines for their courage and resourcefulness.

There is now a tradition of suspicion and distrust between Hakka and others that has accreted around martial instruction. The Hakka had a word for everyone else which was "Punti" and there were numerous Hakka/Punti wars.

I understand that the recently departed Chow Gar grand master Ip Shui, being Cantonese, was not easily accepted by his Hakka classmates, the irony being that their antagonism provided Ip Shui with the opportunity to demonstrate his worth and rise to prominence.

It's a complete pain in the ass learning a style made secretive by politics but things are opening up as time goes by.

Beyond Hakka, China's general history is littered with extremes of bloodshed such as the rest of the world can never have experienced. This goes back a very long time. Tens of its nations have been eradicated in huge wars. Amongst all this fighting and in-fighting, people found plenty of oportunity to develop fighting methods.

Rgds,
David

[CFT]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
I'm aware of Haka references that's why I seriously doubt your sweeping statement that "they" dislike southerners can hold true. In any case, racial tension has nothing to do with kung fu.I think your ignorance is compounded by your short attention span. In case you have forgotten, this is what you wrote about your knowledge of the Hakka:


I'm not aware of chinese to know that hakka dislikes southerners. I always thought that hakka was a war dance by the New Zealand natives.Traditionally, and perhaps to a smaller extent these days, there has always been an animosity/wariness between the Hakka Chinese and the "indigenous" occupants of Southern China.

The practice and use of martial arts can arguably be all about rivalry, whether it is racial or merely local. There used to be serious fights between villages in the New Territories of Hong Kong. Before that there were bandits, hence the existence of walled villages some of which survive to this day.


I wasn't 12 during the vietnam war. I had made that clear to you private in the last post. Obviously your comprehension is way below your age what ever it may be. You have not sent me any private messages, nor replied to me on this topic in public in this thread. I say again that given the birth date in your profile you would have been 12 at the time that the USA ceased combat operations in March 1973. There was no need at that time for the USA to take 12 year olds on a campaign that had already wound down.

My comprehension is fine for my age, but yours isn't so good for someone who has seen 43 years. If you want to troll, then at least be aware of what you have already written. Falling over your own words just makes our jobs too easy :p

[Ben Gash]

Well let's see Ego, the evidence for you being Kelvin Chan:
Exhibit A: Your stance and content are identical to every other Kelvin Chan character.
Exhibit B: Your literary style and use of language is very similar (and, indeed, not very American).
Exhibit C: The timings of your posts indicate that you are not posting from the continental United states (indeed, pretty consistent with evening/night time in Australia).
We should believe that you aren't lying about Vietnam becuase you lied to us about something else?

[5thBrother]

Hey Ego

"..as such I have travelled to remote parts of the world to learn from the masters"

just curious

1. what parts of the world have you gone to study at ( afew will do)
2. what schools (or just 2 or 3) did u study at?
3. what are name of some of the "masters" u study/studied from? (2 or 3 will do.

u can answter in point for such as:
1. x,y,z countries
2. x,y,z school names
3. z,y,z teacher's names

thank you.



C: The timings of your posts indicate that you are not posting from the continental United states (indeed, pretty consistent with evening/night time in Australia)[/B]

this should be easy enough:

any admin or mod wanna do a quick quick on the IP ADDRESS ... or simply:

is the IP of from USA or AUST. should be a simple yes or no.. if not post it and i can say.

cheers

ps. oh year .. re: vietnam .. what unit/tours etc where u involved in.. this too can be verified..

thanks

[fidon]

Haha, this thread seems to just revolve around that 'Ego' fella and everyone else. Whatever this fellow thinks about SPM is entirely up to him, if he was in Vietnam or not it doesnt really matter, maybe he's making it up, or maybe its the truth...who really cares.

So, is SPM or NPM better? I suggest go and try both of them out, the person can then decide for themselves in their own minds which art is better. It's like religion, which is better? It is what you yourself believe, nobody can say which is better. It is simply personal preference.

[NeedsPractice]

Better or worse to train?
Since spm is a close range style does the person want to spend time learning how to do smaller movements, precisely (with the elbow in) and accurately or do northern where on the surface at least the body moves freer in bigger movements? If the person had expereince in a long range style already ( say karate or kickboxing) they most likely will pick up npm quicker than spm. If they want close range fighting then they should go to spm which would specialize on it more.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

David:

I don't think the period of Hakka you referred to is the same as southern praying mantis. In anycase, SPM has gone through so many name changes in the past it's impossible to keep track of the lineage. It is just totally hopeless. To them Hakkas it was a great honor to fight the northerners, but to the northerners, they were simply a mere annoyance. To think that masters of today who still harp on Hakka ancestry is just plain racism and narrow mindedness which I suspect translates to they way they apply kung fu.

CFT:

What makes you think you deserve a private message from me. As I said, I lied about my age regarding the vietnam war. Take it or leave it, but I have done more for this country then a lot of arm chair kung fu warriors on this forum.

Ben Gash:

We all know what else you do when you look at the photos of your ex. on the net He may indeed be goktimus. No one else has a sustained fascination about him as you do.

5thBrother:

Yes, I coud do all that and much more, but why should I? Ask Ben, he is the self proclaimed ego maxiums hunter and all he's done is shoot himself in the foot, and stuck the other foot in his mouth and his head up his ankle hole.

fidon:

It is only like religion if it cannot be proven, but it can, with the exception of spm players who don't seem to want to. I mean if it is a good closeed in fighthing system why do they not go up agaisnt bjj. surely spm would do well! the closest I'm come across is wing chun and you know the rest of the story.

NeedsPractice:

More than needing practice, you need to practice in the right stuff. SPM has no answer against kick boxer's round house kicks, hook punches or close in grapples like BJJ.

[guy incognito]

More than needing practice, you need to practice in the right stuff. SPM has no answer against kick boxer's round house kicks, hook punches or close in grapples like BJJ. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hello its called footwork. Anyone who gets in the way of these is a fool and deserves what he gets! You sir need to put more time into practicing your art instead of practicing hacking on other peoples arts. Get over it if you dont like it dont do spm. What are you arts responses to these techniques?

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

guy incognito

I agree, that's why spm NEVER steps foot into the octogan right? as for foot work, mixed martial arts has plenty of but spm has none of. Standing pretty with your wedge shaped arms and pheonix eye fist ain't going to deter a kick boxer or grappler. Hellooo sir, you're not in some farm yard in china any more.

As for my strategy, when I used to train, I did mixed martial arts. if they box me, I box back, they grapple me, I grapple back, tehy kick me, I kick back. mixed martial arts is the utimate form of fighting, the only way to beat them is to play their game better than they do. you have to keep your foot fast and light.

[Ben Gash]

I thought you did SPM from your wheelchair :confused:

[David]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
if they box me, I box back, they grapple me, I grapple back, tehy kick me, I kick back. mixed martial arts is the utimate form of fighting, the only way to beat them is to play their game better than they do. you have to keep your foot fast and light.
And if they do spm, you fall over before you can start your copy-cat patty-cake.

Dude, these conversations are supposed to be about the topic and not about the person. Your ego pollutes everything here.

[guy incognito]

Well ego I dont know what to say to you. There aree several people in our school that have defeated attacks on the street. The real thing. No ref,no rules. To some peole thats more important. In my line of work(Crowd control) wrestling someone to the ground would be extemely dangerous. MMA is for entertainment. SPM is for kicking ass not rolling around on a mat gettin romantic!

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Ben Gash,

I've given that up sometime ago. Thanks for asking so as a special favor to you I'll tell you the reason is because my doctor says that the breathing exercises are bad for my hernia.

David,

Are you drunk, you simply don't make sense. spm stances are very stiff. If you have 2 spms sparring then they clobber one another silly. But if you have a wrestler who charges in, true the wrestler would fall but it's likely to be on top of the spm.

guy incognito,

what about those in your school that haven't. In any case, it's silly to use the generic term as attack from the street. They can come in all forms including kids trying to steal your lolly.

So you're a crowd dontrol man. I see where spm comes in. you have your wedge shaped arms and pheonix fist hands standing ridgid in your stance.

[David]

Ego, you match kick for kick, punch for punch and grapple for grapple but when it comes to going against spm, your only hope is to duck n wrassle? :rolleyes: Sounds like you already lost in your mind ;).

Rgds,
David

[David]

And it's not stiff, thankyou very much. We have crazy footwork, horsejumps, turns.

It just so happens that every time you see spm used, there isn't enough fight in the opponent to warrant its use in the most obvious way footwork becomes apparent - evasion.

In the same way, we like to make an arm bridge on an incoming attack, our legs yearn for the taste of the other guy's leg. Contact, press, POW. The legs are used like the hands. Foot, shin, knee and thigh all combine to bring maximum experience to the opponent.

Rgds,
David

[CaptinPickAxe]

Hey, Ego! We got you on blast on the main forum! I also hear that Blooming Lotus has been saying some pretty hanious thing about your family:D

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

David:

The why hasn't SPM come out tops in ultimate fighting matches if it's that good? Oh let me guess, because they feel they are too good to enter into those tournies.

What you describe is basic martial arts stuff. Kick boxers also use their shins and knees.

CaptinPickAxe:

I had a look at that post. I don't understnd why people build a web site of themselves when they're obviously not trying to sell stuff. oh btw, i'm not goktimus hence I have the last laugh. I might be blooming lotus though or maybe not.

[brothernumber9]

what about the tornado kick?

[David]

Ego, :rolleyes: many MA's don't enter tournements and they do it for a variety of reasons. On one hand it comes down to personality types, lifestyle and personal interests.

Take me: I'm barely interested in even watching something like ufc let alone training up with that in mind. It's simply irrelevant to my life.

I can't see kick-boxers using knee and shin in the same way, because their whole approach differs. I thought you might know that.

Have you got any friends or are we the closest analogue you have?

Scant rgds,
David

[Ou Ji]

To answer the posts initial question Yes SPM is better than NPM. Just ask any SPM stylist.

Of course the NPM guys might have a different opinion. :)

Now to ask a question. Why are you guys even responding to Ego? Are your lives as meaningless as his?

Whatever he knows, or doesn't know, is second only to his interest in pushing buttons.

[David]

Ego makes this forum almost unbearable, but if he can't be banned for being an ******* the next best thing is to try and sort his head out. He's a poor ****ed-up individual who is too much inside his head in a masturbatory fashion.

He requires direct confrontation on his own level in order to stand any chance of seeing himself for what he is. If he's going to ruin (and he does) every single thread he posts in, it's imperative to accomplish this, in the name of humanity and all that is good.

Rgds,
David

[Ben Gash]

The prosecution would like to admit the quote in Vash's post (mentioned earlier) as exhibit D :cool:

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

David,

Seeing that you probably strut around the house in high heels it is not your life style thing to enter into the ufc. Moreover, you pass judgement on what you kdon't know. Even an average street thug would know more about martial arts than you do because they watch ufc on tv. It is you who needs to come out of your closed door hakka koon and be more open minded. I think everyone on the forum agrees.

OuJi,

How can it be a matter of opinion when the winner is the last man standing? it can be a matter of opinion when spm refuses to step foot into the ufc to see if the skills match up.


Ben Gash,

why don't you do something constructive for once and step foot into the ufc to make a case for spm for all of us to see. David (when he is not in high heels) and OuJi would be there to support you. I'll be watching this on tv.

[TheBlackDragons]

" Taji does not come out for 10 years"
Try 20 or 30 years ,, But i do have a spm question?

How long do you have to go to Henery poo yees school before you learn fighting applications?


thank you

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Hello BlackDragons, my name is Mr. Ego Maximus.

Why don't you ask Mr. Henry Poo Yee himself or his associates? I do have a question for you, isn't poo yee the name of the last emperor of China?

You seem like a troll. We don't appreciate trolls on this forum. You must show respect at all times.

[David]

I knew ego was a big fan of learning from video. I just didn't know he thought of me in heels.

Sorry to disappoint but after years of searching, I still can't get them in my size.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

David,

I don't think any of your students think you're good if you don't prove yourself in the UFC regardless of what type of shoes you wear.

[David]

Let's recap:
1. I'm not a teacher, nor am I at that level.
2. I'm training for self-defence and for the defence of little old ladies and other citizens within my sensory horizon 24/7. I do this as a responsible grown-up with an aversion to violence and violent people.

Most people I know have never heard of UFC and no MA's I know IRL ever talk about it.

UFC is great if you're into that sort of thing. There's no point trying to say I should be into it because there's no reason why I should.

Whilst I have seen some UFC, Fight Club and many other televisual broadcasts, none of them represent either the real world nor my view of it.

Which brings me neatly to my main point: get a life while still you can. Every day you delay makes it less likely it will ever happen.

Rgds,
David

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

David:

1. How is it you're still a fresh beginner after having trained for years. SPM is not exactly a difficult style to master.

2. So you think you're a full time super hero here to save the day. The bravest thing you've done is help grandma cross the street.

3. Why don't you challenge a UFC to fight on your terms, no holds barred to see if what they do is consistent with real world fighting. I would think a lot of them will take up your challenge.

4. I'm sorry to hear that after years of searching you can't find high heels that fit. It must be disappointing that you can't live up to your view of the world. But keep searching, you may one day get a life you want to live.

[David]

1. I maintain my freshness through a cretin-like inability to get bored going over the same things again and again. What's the rush, anyway?

2. So now you're slating me because I care about grandma. Do you have to be a superhero to care about your community? :rolleyes: You are either passively evil or plain ineffectual and afraid.

3. UFC shmooFC. You talk like a kid who's glued to the tv 6hrs a day. Have you got Hulk Hogan posters on your wall? You can make a few rules for a "NHB" type fight but when. during the fight, it comes to the point where only a banned maneuvre will work, or your first response is a banned maneuvre, then you're stuffed because you either lose by default, hesitate or break the rule. To train around that is to lessen your effectiveness by having taboos. And, anyway, you seem to have missed me saying earlier, I am not the slightest interested in the whole sport-fighting genre.

4. Never mind about the shoes; what I said about them was in jest. Thanks for your concern, but at 6' 4", I don't even need heels like you want me to.

-David

[TheBlackDragons]

I tried to stay out of this conversation for as long as i could

ego ,,,i know you like to argue leave Dave alone


he's a cool guy

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

David:

1. This is how you keep yourself fresh. You must be a very fresh piece of vegitable. what do people call you: cabbage man, carrot man or pumpkin head.

2. I'm not slating you because you care about grandma. I'm pointing out to you that there is a big difference between your make belief world as a spm super hero and the ufc.

3. For the record, I don't think you can last 3 sec. with Hulk Hogan. from what you say, you must be thinking that you can beat any UFC contestent if you can use your illigal moves.

4. Have you heard of that saying "many a truth are said in jest" ? It sounds a though you're seriosly into high heels.

5. Is your sifu as pumpkin headed as you? You give your school a bad name.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by David

3. UFC shmooFC. You talk like a kid who's glued to the tv 6hrs a day. Have you got Hulk Hogan posters on your wall? You can make a few rules for a "NHB" type fight but when. during the fight, it comes to the point where only a banned maneuvre will work, or your first response is a banned maneuvre, then you're stuffed because you either lose by default, hesitate or break the rule. To train around that is to lessen your effectiveness by having taboos. And, anyway, you seem to have missed me saying earlier, I am not the slightest interested in the whole sport-fighting genre.


that's incorrect. what kind of predicament would you be in that only a certain technique would be effective? that's unreal...

Also, to train around it is not to lessen your effectiveness. these banned techniques are by no means instant fight enders. A groin shot is definitely not necessarily one - I've taken one and didn't feel it until AFTER the fight, when the rush wore off.

I can actually switch the lessened effectiveness back to you... you train strikes, kicks, locks, throws, weapons, forms, iron body.... that's too much to focus on. As a thai boxer, I focus on way less. same with grappling. while you are in class wokring this technique one daym, this technique another, learining forms in the latter part of class, etc. I am drilling and sparring with the same techniques repeatedly - i fear the man who does 1 technique 10,000 times moreso than the man who trains 10,000 techniques 1 time...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by David
our legs yearn for the taste of the other guy's leg. Contact, press, POW. The legs are used like the hands. Foot, shin, knee and thigh all combine to bring maximum experience to the opponent.


so does a thai boxer's. but we do it in the form of leg kicks, knees to the thigh, sweeps, etc.

[David]

7*, when I saw your name on this thread I thought maybe you'd closed it :) Alas!

I agree with you on everything you said except your complaint about issues surrounding hypothetically banned moves. I never did say that they were super fight-enders, just that they are the ones that would (hypothetically) be appropriate for a tight spot. Why accept defeat when a bit or somesuch would allow me to regain my feet (or whatever)?

Whichever way you look at it, competitions come under sport and sport is marked by rounding the corners and smoothing the edges. I ain't buying it.

You'll be greatly relieved to hear that most of my time has been spent on a handful of methods just like yourself. but, seeing as I'm intending to train this the rest of my life, it would be a bit of a shame if that was all there was to it. Luckily, I have plenty of things to occupy the next 50-100 years. As the years roll by, it's safe to assume that more and more techniques will be assimilated. Why have so many techniques? People learn them in different orders, specialising along different paths. The art caters for them all.

Though I don't spar in class (except for poles), I'm reliably informed that it will come and what we do now is ample preparation for it when it does. I already know from outside experience that I can 'do it' to a degree.

I also know that Muay Thai doesn't train any harsher than mantis even in the legs which we appear to hardly use at all. Please bear that in mind when you think we just learn forms. Forms are for solo home practice except for partnered forms, drills for conditioning, sensitivity, speed, power and technique. Many of these are far from static.

Rgds,
David

[David]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
1. This is how you keep yourself fresh. You must be a very fresh piece of vegitable. what do people call you: cabbage man, carrot man or pumpkin head.
You are what you eat, so I guess that makes you junk.


Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
2. I'm not slating you because you care about grandma. I'm pointing out to you that there is a big difference between your make belief world as a spm super hero and the ufc.
Like old ladies in my street and town are somehow less real than the UFC? Rhetorical Q: WTF planet do you come from?


Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
3. For the record, I don't think you can last 3 sec. with Hulk Hogan. from what you say, you must be thinking that you can beat any UFC contestent if you can use your illigal moves.
Whatever, but read above post about my hypothetical 'illegal-moves' concern.


Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
4. Have you heard of that saying "many a truth are said in jest" ? It sounds a though you're seriosly into high heels.
I've been active on many footwear threads inthe past on these forums. Read-up and revise your erroneous supposition.


Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
5. Is your sifu as pumpkin headed as you? You give your school a bad name.
I'm assuming you're not personally attacking my teachers. You can use your best vegetable technique against me forever, for all I care. But, to answer your question, however you define pumpkin-headedness, they are different from me as you should expect. All of them have 20+ years of at least two MA's each and have seen it all. They set a good example but don't ask their students to conform to their modes of living. I am privileged to be learning under them and, though I've been 'in trouble' once or twice in the past, everything is on an even keel.

You don't know what you're talking about when you talk about me, spm in general, Chow Gar in particular, my training, my abilities, my school or my reputation in it. Yet you keep talking. Amazing :rolleyes:.

-David

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by David
7*, when I saw your name on this thread I thought maybe you'd closed it :) Alas!

:D nah - the first three to four pages actually had some pretty good info, but I guess I may as well close it soon, as it seems the info exchange is done...

I agree with you on everything you said except your complaint about issues surrounding hypothetically banned moves. I never did say that they were super fight-enders, just that they are the ones that would (hypothetically) be appropriate for a tight spot. Why accept defeat when a bit or somesuch would allow me to regain my feet (or whatever)?

you didn't say that they were fight enders - but stated that you may be in a situation where only one of those techniques would save you... I can't think of such a situation - where ONLY one of those techniques will get you out.

Whichever way you look at it, competitions come under sport and sport is marked by rounding the corners and smoothing the edges. I ain't buying it.

naturally you don't - because you don't do it. I don't buy dim mak - but I don't do it. tonight on pride, jackson picked his opponent up and slammed him into the canvas, causing his head to bounce, knocking him out - if that was on the street he may well have been killed from such an impact. I've broken someone's ribs with a roundhouse, my teacher has done the same with a knee. rounded corners or not, the stuff you guys do is no more dangerous than what we do.

You'll be greatly relieved to hear that most of my time has been spent on a handful of methods just like yourself. but, seeing as I'm intending to train this the rest of my life, it would be a bit of a shame if that was all there was to it. Luckily, I have plenty of things to occupy the next 50-100 years. As the years roll by, it's safe to assume that more and more techniques will be assimilated. Why have so many techniques? People learn them in different orders, specialising along different paths. The art caters for them all.

yeah, that's understandable. we're just on opposite sides of the fence on that issue. I don't want to keep learning new techniques for the next 50 years. I'd rather refine the ones I know and truly master them. judo has over 60 throws, but you can learn them all in about 4 years - that's still more than enough techniques to spend the rest of your life mastering though. thai boxing also has several techniques - more than many people think - and more than enough to keep you busy for life. The competition aspect of both venues keeps you on your toes, checks your ego and allows you to see what you have down, what you need to work on, etc.

Though I don't spar in class (except for poles), I'm reliably informed that it will come and what we do now is ample preparation for it when it does. I already know from outside experience that I can 'do it' to a degree.

that's what I've never really understood about many traditional styles - after 6 years, you still aren't sparring yet? how long does it take to get there?

I also know that Muay Thai doesn't train any harsher than mantis even in the legs which we appear to hardly use at all. Please bear that in mind when you think we just learn forms.

I know you don't only do forms, however, considering that we train to be in the ring, I don't see how you would train as harshly as we do... We have to push ourselves, because that's what it takes to win. IME, the avg sport fighter trains harder than the avg TMA for that very reason. we're training for an inevitability, and you are training for a possibility.


Forms are for solo home practice except for partnered forms, drills for conditioning, sensitivity, speed, power and technique. Many of these are far from static.

not static, but cooperative nontheless. even if you are really trying to hit eachother, it's still a two man form or still a drill - you know what technique the other guy is going to do. three star drills, iron body, etc. conditions you, but isn't helping your fighting ability. we do bagowrk and things to condition, drill for sensitivity and technique, etc. but all of that is also done via sparring, which does aid in fighting ability.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by David


Like old ladies in my street and town are somehow less real than the UFC? Rhetorical Q: WTF planet do you come from?

I think I see what ego is saying here, and I can't believe I'm saying this, but he has a valid point :eek: It's like what I was saying - sport fighters train for an inevitability, whereas you are training for a possibility - I'm training for a national level thai boxing tournament in august. I KNOW that I will have at least one fight that day - it's inevitable. I KNOW I have upcoming judo and bjj competitions and must train for them. You on the other hand might never have to save an old lady. Many people involved in MA never have to use them on the street.

[David]

Hey, I like that about inevitability/possibility and accept your point about training for the ring.

In my 6.5yrs, I've had plenty of time off with illness and injury as well as being exceedingly lazy until two years ago. There are Chow Gar sifus who had about 4yrs training.

Rgds,
David

[SevenStar]

understandable. unfortunately, those things happen. Hopefully, none of us have to worry about any more injury or illness for a while!

[Ben Gash]

Sevenstar, you're putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5. I've been to traditional schools where competition is a dirty word and the conditioning has been far more extreme than in competitive schools. The competitive schools tend to do more aerobic conditioning, but traditional schools tend to do impact stuff that would horrify them.
Anyway, a competitive bout is not a fight.

[SevenStar]

I agree, it's not a fight, never said it was. However, it's

1. about the closest thing you can safely come to one

2. a constant - soemthing you can look forward to, train and set goals for, as opposed to a fight, which you may never see.

Impact stuff that would horrify an impact natured group? nah... things like what?

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

David,

1. I have not discussed what I eat with you. therefore what you said about me is pure trolling slander.

2. Yes the old ladies in your town are less realistic benchmarks for self defence which you keep insisting on using.

3. Answer my question for as someone who doesn't even spar. What do you know of the usage of legal moves in the UFC let alone illigal ones? It seems your self defence is more like self delusion.

4. I know enough about your activity with footware. It makes me wonder what you mean by finding your opponents legs - especially when you said you don't spar.

5. yes I'll try my best vegitable technique with you as that is how you deal with vegetables. How ever I define pumkin-headedness it is not something you have denied. Happy to know you're one of a kind. Perhaps your senior students and sifu are not too far behind.

Ben Gash,

Seven star is a thai boxer who works out hard for international fights. I doubt your traditional schools can match them on cardio or impact training. You have David who trains in spm but doesn't even spar in class.

[David]

As Ben dramatically alluded to, we don't train like it's a picnic. The rate of drop-out in our class is very high because the experience is gruelling and unpleasant. The people who tend to stay are those with extensive previous MA experience who're looking for something challenging.

Also, there's nothing to aim for in our class in terms of belts or trophies. All the motivation is internal and the core of students there are pretty dedicated to personal development with no reward.

We do come close to sparring in several ingenious drills in which randomisation is added incrementally, according to ability. We are certainly not locked into these patterns and this is demonstrated every single lesson - when somebody deviates from the preset attack or defense menu of methods, it's handled. To my mind, sparring in-class involves gloves and gumshields. We don't have any. Our preferred punch doesn't even use the padded part of a boxing glove, so I wonder how it would even work. I know it does happen with boxing gloves in other schools but it seems stylistically irrelevant to me.

I think, Ego, that part of what I'm trying to say here is that what I call not-sparring, you might consider beyond your ability to cope - I certainly consider it so.

ego, your tenacity with reference to the nhb illegal move issue is as impressive to behold as it is pointless. My response comes in several parts so listen carefully: -
1. If I am having a fight and the thing I wish to do next is not allowed then that puts me at a disadvantage.
2. If I train to fit the rules, I'll have to forget some of the things I have worked hard to learn.
3. My style's curriculum and goals are not tailored to the ring, nor is there infrastructure to make it so: it's a martial art.
4. It's great that other people enjoy the challenge of the ring.
5. The most pointless kind of person is the spectator. Get a life - time's running out.

As always ego, some perspective is required here and I'm happy to present it to you: my life centres around friends, work and kung fu (& yoga and tai chi). I know you have a very high opinion of me and my skills ego, but please try to bear in mind I'm not a soldier, doorman, competitor or other martially inclined professional. I still have plenty to learn but I'm fairly certain you don't have any of that knowledge to impart.

-David

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by David
As Ben dramatically alluded to, we don't train like it's a picnic. The rate of drop-out in our class is very high because the experience is gruelling and unpleasant. The people who tend to stay are those with extensive previous MA experience who're looking for something challenging.

I did 4 years of longfist, and like your mantis, it was no cakewalk. however, it was nowhere near as hard as what I am experiencing now.

Also, there's nothing to aim for in our class in terms of belts or trophies. All the motivation is internal and the core of students there are pretty dedicated to personal development with no reward.

bah, trophies are merely a byproduct. motivation is internal, as it is with you. I like to test myself. period. most sport fighters are the same way. My trophies and medals would be either in storage or in the garbage, if it wasn't for my mother, who likes to show them off. consequently, I give them to her.

We do come close to sparring in several ingenious drills in which randomisation is added incrementally, according to ability. We are certainly not locked into these patterns and this is demonstrated every single lesson - when somebody deviates from the preset attack or defense menu of methods, it's handled. To my mind, sparring in-class involves gloves and gumshields. We don't have any. Our preferred punch doesn't even use the padded part of a boxing glove, so I wonder how it would even work. I know it does happen with boxing gloves in other schools but it seems stylistically irrelevant to me.

open fingered mma gloves would be fine for that purpose, you guys may like them. If these drills are so close to sparring, why don't they just let you spar?

1. If I am having a fight and the thing I wish to do next is not allowed then that puts me at a disadvantage.

not really - I was always told to think in terms of principle, not technique. I can do tai otoshi and block your leg at the knee, injuring it as you fall, or I can block below the knee, resulting in a safe fall - it's the same principle, but a different technique. I we are in a clinch and my thought is to knee you in the nads, raise it a tad higher and go for the bladder - same principle and technique - different target.


2. If I train to fit the rules, I'll have to forget some of the things I have worked hard to learn.

see above. in grappling, we don't train to break your limbs - we train to stop once you tap. that doesn't mean you forget it. in ufc 48 this past weekend, a guy got his arm broken from an arm bar...

3. My style's curriculum and goals are not tailored to the ring, nor is there infrastructure to make it so: it's a martial art.

boxing, wrestling, thai boxing, judo, etc. are no less martial arts than karate or kung fu. you are right about the goals though; they are different.

[David]

We're still on different sides of the fence :)

I don't consider boxing or judo martial arts in the original sense. Boxing is molded and sanitised (yeah I know it hurts and kills), judo was invented as a sport.

I haven't seen open-fingered gloves up close - do they have knife-hand padding?

Most of us are allowed to spar in class, I guess - it has happened but its priority level is pretty low, or rather we'd rather be working on other aspects. It's been a while since I spoke to my main teacher about it: I'll see if I can remember to do so.

Still, as far as I'm concerned, fighting comes last in mantis. When I did Wing Chun for a little while, it was sparring every lesson. It was exciting but I didn't really see the point because nobody used Wing Chun. People put the gloves on and just boxed. Can't remember now if I did any different to them (having 1.5-2yrs of mantis in me at the time).

With the illegal move thing, it would be sad to be in a position where a bite would get me out and not be able to do it because I would be disqualified and didn't have any beef with my opponent. That's probably the crux of it - common decency would be the final nail in my coffin. It's the denial of the essential motto "Victory by any means".

Rgds,
David

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by David
We're still on different sides of the fence :)

yeah, I believe we are. :)

I don't consider boxing or judo martial arts in the original sense. Boxing is molded and sanitised (yeah I know it hurts and kills), judo was invented as a sport.

the term 'martial' denotes combat of any sort - archery, combat sports,weapon smithing, etc. judo was created not necessarily with the intention of being sport, but with the intention of anyone being allowed to safely practice. with this, however, came the advent of sparring, which led to them beating up on the traditional jujutsu guys.

the dictionary's definition is interesting: "any of several arts of combat and self-defense (as karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sport"

I don't necessarily agree with that though.

I haven't seen open-fingered gloves up close - do they have knife-hand padding?

nah, not really. the majority of the padding is on the knuckles.


Still, as far as I'm concerned, fighting comes last in mantis.

IMO, that's backwards...


When I did Wing Chun for a little while, it was sparring every lesson. It was exciting but I didn't really see the point because nobody used Wing Chun. People put the gloves on and just boxed. Can't remember now if I did any different to them (having 1.5-2yrs of mantis in me at the time).

no offense, but that's the sign of a bad teacher. That tells me that his students didn't have their techniques ingrained in them - either that or he was showing them these techniques as well, and they were preferred. you should be able to fight using the techniques and principles of your style.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

David

"1. If I am having a fight and the thing I wish to do next is not allowed then that puts me at a disadvantage."

The fact is you don't spar in class let alone being in a fight. You haven't done the first thing let alone the what to do next.

"2. If I train to fit the rules, I'll have to forget some of the things I have worked hard to learn."

I agree. But the way you train implies that all the moves are choreographed or the possibilities of where the attacks come from are limited because you don't spar. These "rules" are much more restrictive then anything you see in boxing let alone UFC.

"3. My style's curriculum and goals are not tailored to the ring, nor is there infrastructure to make it so: it's a martial art."

I know it is not tailored for the ring. But you can't consider what you do a martial art.

"4. It's great that other people enjoy the challenge of the ring."

Besides high heels shoes and finding one another's legs what challenges in life do you enjoy? If things do get nasty can you defeat any challenger from boxing or the ufc on the streets?

You must believe you can because in your mind they would have picked up all the bad habits from their training. You on the other hand will have the advantage of the illigal moves. Is that right? or are you just going to take care of an old lady?

"5. The most pointless kind of person is the spectator. Get a life - time's running out."

I can say that you are less than a person because you don't even watch the UFC, but I won't. We have all concluded that you're not a martial artist.

[Ben Gash]

The classic "I've done" argument. I've done Muay Thai, and it wasn't as tough as Wuzhuquan, or one of my Choy Li Fut schools. As I said, competitive fighters have (and need) high levels of cardiovascular fitness, and they are very good for developing this.
As for competitive matches being the closest thing you can safely get to a real fight, that may or may not be true (whole other conversation), however, it does not realistically prepare you for a real fight and is arguably as far removed from it as forms practice.
The nature of the attacks you face are very different, you can't get a points victory for real, for real you need to finish the fight as fast as you can, there's little room for tactical trading, for real you can't rely on having a good chin or take it on your gloves, for real you may not identify your opponent until he's initiated his first attack, for real you may start from only six inches away etc etc etc.
The drawback with competitive training is that you train for what will work in that format. When I was doing San Shou, I went back to doing Kung fu sparring and I sucked! I'd de-programmed myself, and was getting slaughtered until I managed to work my kung fu back into my fighting.

[David]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
blah blah blah can you defeat any challenger from boxing or the ufc on the streets?
Yes, I can defeat anyone - including you.

-David

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ben Gash
The classic "I've done" argument.

the thing about the "I've done", is that it's not an argument - it's an account of personal experience. IME, a posrt, competition style will train harder than a non competition style out of necessity.

As for competitive matches being the closest thing you can safely get to a real fight, that may or may not be true (whole other conversation), however, it does not realistically prepare you for a real fight and is arguably as far removed from it as forms practice.

surely, you jest...

The nature of the attacks you face are very different,

possibly - possibly not.

you can't get a points victory for real, for real you need to finish the fight as fast as you can, there's little room for tactical trading, for real you can't rely on having a good chin or take it on your gloves

A good chin is always a good thing. Tactical trading is not a good thing - you're not trying to trade, you're trying to take him down. Problem is that he's *supposedly* as skilled as you are.

for real you may not identify your opponent until he's initiated his first attack, for real you may start from only six inches away etc etc etc.
The drawback with competitive training is that you train for what will work in that format. When I was doing San Shou, I went back to doing Kung fu sparring and I sucked! I'd de-programmed myself, and was getting slaughtered until I managed to work my kung fu back into my fighting.

So what training are you doing that is so much more realistic?

[Ben Gash]

Hey, you started this conversation, not me :p
Bridging, attacks from different angles, attacks from behind.l Fighting from "inside" (something that is very difficult to properly do in a sporting format), training scenarios where you start at a disadvantage, using the whole body as a weapon etc etc etc.
Talk to the guys on the reality forum, I'm sure they'll give you some pointers.

[SevenStar]

that sounds no different from a typical bjj class...there is plenty of infighting in MT.

[Ben Gash]

But BJJ proclaims to be a combat art, not a sport, so it should have them :confused:
As for the second, what I mean and you mean is very different (what I mean is impossible with a mass great pair of 12oz gloves on).
Bottom line Sevenstar, for me violence is a certainty, not a possibility. I've used my skills 3 times already this year, and I'm fully expecting a violent confrontation to occur at the weekend.
Rickson Gracie says"Boxers, yeah, they've got a tough sport... but it's a sport."

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Sevenstar,

I agree, lots in BJJ is very practical especially what it teaches your body to do at close range.

Ben Gash,

Are you posted in Iraq or something - violent weekend. Sounds like you and your friends are going to watch an action movie. Glad to hear that you went training 3 times this year.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ben Gash
As for the second, what I mean and you mean is very different (what I mean is impossible with a mass great pair of 12oz gloves on).

I know exactly what you mean, however, the infighting is way more than sufficient, regardless of gloves. Can I throw with gloves? sure. Can I knee with them? darn tootin. Can I elbow? affirmative. Can I strike? Indubitably. Can I control your body? yup. Can I kick? uh huh. Can I control your body? yessir.

the infighting is fine without hair pulling, gouging, etc. None of those are necessities in infighting and don't give you any more of a chance for survival than I have, really.


Bottom line Sevenstar, for me violence is a certainty, not a possibility. I've used my skills 3 times already this year, and I'm fully expecting a violent confrontation to occur at the weekend.

it's still a possiblilty. It may never happen again. Over the past two years or so, I've stopped muggers, stopped a guy from beating his girl, chased of robbers, had to protect people and various other things - but that may not happen again for the next several years, if at all...it's possible that it may happen again. It's definite that I will compete again.

Rickson Gracie says"Boxers, yeah, they've got a tough sport... but it's a sport."

Who cares if it's a sport? I agree it's a sport - a combat sport, which IMO is also a martial art. trust me, a boxer is no worse off in the street then you.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Seven Star,

You're right again. People who don't do reality training in martial arts tend to critizise the so called sports martial arts saying that they are impractical and so forth. It's true that these so called sports have placed limitations to what they do, but trust me, a boxer's punch is very fast and lands heavy. that's because they train it all the time. The one to one sprring that they do and with the restrictions on bridging gives them excellent timing. Sometimes restrictions can cause one to excel in other areas to compensiate for a difficiency.

Seven Star, you sure know what you're talking about. I'm proud to have you as my moderator. I'll be proud to have my @ss kicked by you anytime.

[David]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
Sometimes restrictions can cause one to excel in other areas to compensiate for a difficiency.
Arguing for limitations shows a blinkered imagination coupled with a fear of the unknown (in this case, martial arts).


Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
[B]Seven Star, you sure know what you're talking about. I'm proud to have you as my moderator. I'll be proud to have my @ss kicked by you anytime.

This is amazing. Ego dissolves into a desire for karmic whirlwind. I knew you'd make progress. Keep it up; we're all waiting.

-David

[Ben Gash]

Sevenstar, you've missed your calling, you should be a philosipher .

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

David,

You have missed the point again, being self deluded to claim to be able to beat anyone in the UFC.

Ben Gash,

Sevenstar is right again, Ben gash, i don't think you know much about fighting because you believe it to be a philosophy.

How is your violent weekend about tio shape up?

[Ben Gash]

One drunken psychotic so far, but the police dealt with him.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Ben Gash,

Drunken people don't put up much of a fight. their balance and coordination is way out. Plus you can spot them a mile away and even if they sneek up to within a few feet, the smell of alcohol is a give away.

I would think a boxing match would be closer to fighting than beating up on a drunk.

[Ben Gash]

When was the last time you were in a fight Kelvin? Those beatings you took in the schoolyard don't count.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Ben Gash,

Just in case you've forgotten, I'm not Kelvin. I have to keep reminding the brain damaged you decause of all the alcohol. Maybe it was you the cops actually took away. Everyone else in the club wanted to have a good weekend and it was you who wanted to get all violent and sh1t. serves you right.

You even said it yourself a couple of days ago that your weekend was going to be violent. Sounds like premediated act of violence to me.

Where is Swidon anyway? Since you're such a violent type, why not I meet you at Liverpool and we can walk the meanest streets after dark. Of course I'll be in a wheel chair.

[Chops]

Ego,

I was going to go into the dangers of fighting a drunk for you but why bother. All you are going to do is rubbish what I wrote and carry on with your S**t.

Also what is your problem with southern styles anyway? From the little time I have spent with Dong Gong Chow Gar Tong Long I am impressed. It comes across as a good fighting style for self defence/fighting.

For someone who knows alot you know very little! Perhaps it's time to wake up and realise that you are wasting your own time, as well as everyone elses, with inane arguements and childish behaviour.

Grow up child and start talking about things you know about. Also stop watching kung fu movies and find a school so that you can find out what real MA are all about.

Chops.

[Ben Gash]

What club? :confused: I'm at work.
http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=425000&Y=175000&width=500&height=300&gride=&gridn=&srec=0&coordsys=gb&db=pc&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=SN1&advanced=&local=&localinfosel=&kw=&inmap=&table=&ovtype=&scale=1000000
Liverpool's plenty scary enough in the daytime.
Ego, the only person who doesn't believe you're Kelvin Chan is you (well, and Kelvin Chan always denies being Ego). We all know the nearest you've been to New Jersey is watching Mallrats while listening to Bon Jovi.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Chops:

You're the new kid on the scene. If you have bothered reading the earlier post you will know what the rest of us are talking about.

You said you had spent a little time doing that kung fuey stuff and became impressed. Two things - little time and second some people can be easily impressed.

You seem to be quite a beginner, what styles do you train anyway?

Ben Gash,

Ok, you're at work, why are you drinking on the job. Why do you get violent with people at work or with your customers. You sure are a strange one. Who is the "we" you're referring to? Ben Gash and his split personality?

[Ben Gash]

I'm not drinking at work, the public get violent, not I.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Ben Gash,

Why don't you try and talk to people nicely then they don't get violent with you?

If violence is what you're looking for, why are you so scared to take a walk in Liverpool in the day time let alone at night. I won't be scared eventhough I were in a wheelchair.

Maybe you're just an act tough but in reality you're a scardy cat.

[David]

With your mouth, every populated location would be dangerous.
All your words are either insulting, toadying or both.

Spm has a good rep as well you know. You just hate it that a number of those who despise your sophistry study such a cool style. BTW, there are plenty of spm folk in Liverpool if you happen to be there. Just hang around Chinatown with a t-shirt saying spm sucks.

As my namesake defeated Goliath, so am I prepared to do what is necessary, when it is necessary. UFC is vanity and self-defence is not something to be taken vainly. Obviously, with a name like ego extraordinaire, you are, by your own definition, only interested in glamour, vanity, appearances, image, and presentation over accuracy or honesty. You lack even the Olympic spirit of gritty folk like 7* so what do you have that you accuse me of not having?

Delving furher into your name, you imply that you are a weak soul only brave enough to engage the world through a delusionary shell of your own making. A common mistake but one that can be rectified instantaneously with just one gramme of self-respect.

-David

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

David,

It looks to you that everything in the name. David the one who deafeated Goliath is not you. Sure you have his name, but have you done his deeds?

Now lets look at the name UFC (Ultimate Fighting Contest), well for someone like you who place so much emphasis on the name, one would think that you would be the first to jump into the ring and face the tank abbott and other Goliatheans.

But sadly under the excuse of vanity, you wouldn't dare watch it on tv. So this david doesn't want to face his Goliath in a one on one match up but wants to be held in the same regard as David.

Double standards and tripple talk don't you think. Yes, if David had a mouth like yours he might have confused the Goliath not fight him.

Now let's look at the word vanity. This david has said that he's been shopping for high heel shoes for 3 years not to mention that in his so called martial arts david doesn't even spar. Now look at the story of David, before he took on Goliath with the sling, he had trained himself well at using the sling against wolve packs that attack his sheep.

This david however has only helped grandmas cross the road. Heardly a heroc feat and yet he claims he can beat anybody.

Oh my, who's the ego maximus now.

[Ben Gash]

"Oh my, who's the Ego Maximus now?"
You
also 5*mantis,Goktimus Prime and KELVIN CHAN
Now go away and play quietly while the adults talk about grown up stuff OK.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Ben Gash,

I know all you spms stick together, eat together, sleep together, but there is no need to speak on david's behalf.

You on the other hand should respond as to why a mr violent guy is afraid to talk a walk in Liverpool.

For your information, david will be keeping quiet for awhile. The only thing of his that has grown to goliath proportions in his very own ego. He will be thanking me for slaying it.

So Ben what's it going to be ready to take a short walk in Liverpool?

[Ben Gash]

Kelvin, unlike you, I've never studied SPM.
I never said I was afraid to walk in Liverpool, I just said it was a scary place.
As I've been there and I'm assuming you haven't (I'm sure your Sino-Australian blood would freeze in the extreme cold) I really wouldn't bother continuing this line of conversation if I were you (heaven forbid). Anyway, how are you going to get here Ego? Are you now going to tell us that your war pension stretches to random trips across the Atlantic? Does your nurse come with you?

[David]

How is it that you still need to hang on to the high-heels thing like it's the lynch-pin of your pointless argument? Your self-defence method is to retreat into fiction? OK...

-David.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Ben Gash,

You found Liverpool scary but was not scared. Is this the same twisted logic that tells you that I am Kelvin. Your condition is clearer to me now.

NJ probably gets about as cold as Liverpool in winter. I'll probably take a flight here. Yes my nurse will come with me. No I don't think Liverpool is scary once you've been to Nam.

David,

Don't you like the sound of your own words about high heels anymore. BTW I said more than that in the last post but I suppose your silence on those matters means that you agree with me.

Maybe because you have come to realize the futility of your own vanity. Better that than have your a$$ spread across the octogan in biblical proportions by Goliath.

Unlike your biblical hero David, you don't train in a realistic way, you come close to sparring but don't actually spar at all. The closest thing you have to a sling is probably a bikini thong.

[brothernumber9]

Ego were you ever stationed in Hanoi?

[Ben Gash]

Yeah, he kicked their ass in Hanoi :D

[David]

Ego, I throw ideas at you like I would a stick for a dog. You chase them without understanding.

I can defend myself; I can protect others. I aim to improve every day and one day, I'll be great.

So what if I don't spar in class: apart from a couple of exceptions, threats to my security aren't going to come from spm people. As I think I already stated, I've enjoyed exchanges and sparring with all who have been interested. These include people training Aikido, Karate, Boxing, Wing Chun, SPM, Hsing Yi, someone from Kickboxing/Taekwondo/Muay Thai (I forget which) and some untrained guys who've just been up for it.

I've also avoided several real fights and stopped others either fighting or attacking innocent parties. And so I've found First Aid a useful qualification.

What use are you, beyond playing 'fetch'?

-David

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

brothernumber9,

Too hot in Hanoi to be stationed there. My unit followed a trial of Charlies and found ourselves in Hanoi. There we gave them some serious whooping.

David,

In your self defence you assume that no one from spm anywhere around the world will ever threaten your safety. You must be all a bunch of pacifist.

Seeing that you are interested in self defence and feel that the real threat comes from other styles, why don't you spaer with the best of the best in UFC instead of shadow boxing and enjoying the exchanges with your friends.

On the subject of dogs, aint you a picture of fluffy on this forum. Maybe you also clean yourself like fluffy.

On the subject of throwing ideas out, I don't think you know what you're throwing out because you aint prepared for what is coming back.

[brothernumber9]

"Too hot in Hanoi to be stationed there. My unit followed a trial of Charlies and found ourselves in Hanoi. There we gave them some serious whooping. "

wow, sounds crazy, how many men were in your unit? when you say it was too hot in Hanoi do you mean in regards to temperature? or warfare? I was only just born during that time but am curious about it. How long did you get to stay in Hanoi? I'm going to visit there in 2006. were you there during the Tet offensive?

[David]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
In your self defence you assume that no one from spm anywhere around the world will ever threaten your safety. You must be all a bunch of pacifist.
You sound like you are a troublemaker. No wonder nobody wants to teach you anything useful.


Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
Seeing that you are interested in self defence and feel that the real threat comes from other styles, why don't you spaer with the best of the best in UFC instead of shadow boxing and enjoying the exchanges with your friends.
Gee, how I love to answer the same question 10 times in a row. The friends thing is an interesting point, and a source of bitterness for you, I'm sure. Half the people I've sparred with were unknown to me until that point and some of them are more-or-less friends since.


Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
On the subject of dogs, aint you a picture of fluffy on this forum. Maybe you also clean yourself like fluffy.
It looks like English but reads like Greek


Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
On the subject of throwing ideas out, I don't think you know what you're throwing out because you aint prepared for what is coming back.
Whoa, are you pumped from watching Power Rangers?

-David

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Brothernumber9,

Yes, Hanoi was crazy, it was the heart of the resistance. we conducted a daring raid some months after their Tet offensive on saigon which faild militarily. We rigged their ammunition stock piles and Hanoi and lit the place up like the 4th of July. We lost many men, more than I want to remember.

When you go to Vietnam, I'm sure things have changed and people there have gotten back on their feet. But it was crazy, you're lucky you weren't in it.

David,

Dribble responses from you. I didn't expect much more given the holes you have in your self defence training. You must think that spm is pretty useless not to bother training against defending against that style.

Why spar with all the unknown nobodys when you can spar with the dest of the best in their respective styles, kick boxing, muey tai, tkd, boxing , bjj etc in the ufc?

go clean yourself like phooey the dog.

[David]

So you're a Vietnam veteran who thinks the realism doesn't get realer than in UFC? If I'm not mistaken, that's a Hulk Hogan character bio for that programme about the power boat "Something Thunder".

You are funny. And it is great to see I'm actually beginning to get under your skin.

-David

[brothernumber9]

Ego

I'm not going to Vietnam.
I doubted you were in the Vietnam war. After you you stated what you did in Hanoi my doubts were raised further.

Here's why
Hanoi was the headquarters of the Viet Cong.
The northern most U.S. station in Vietname was a little north of Da Nang and around 75km south from the DMZ and 300 miles from Hanoi. There were 2 camps in northern Thailand closer to Hanoi but still well over 200 miles from Hanoi and used primarily for airstrike deployment. Sending a foot unit to Hanoi would be like sending a unit on foot from Washington D.C. to go attack NYC and come back with no supply chain. Does that sound sensible?
What was your mission anyway?
sounds like some Rambo fantasy, I bet all you had was a machine gun, your hard hat, boots, and your Chuck Norris Jeans with the elastic crotch right?
I bet you're like one of these 20 year old biker dudes that come to the memorial every year on memerial weekend trying and crying to tell people they were there.
You didn't even know Elvis man, you didn't even know 'im.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

brothernumber9,

Exactly that's why we struck deep into the heart of the enemy. They were all looking up with SAMs pointing up towards the sky. Who would have imagined a band of what appeared to be regular GIs would dare launch such a daring raid.

We were trained to live off the land, become the jungle, move with stealth. I'm half American Indian and my dad taught me how to hunt as soon as I could walk. That says alot. Too much of the American forces rely on a great big supply chain and big machine guns.

Yes, I became a biker when the war was over and bad to the bone.

David,

I don't think you can fill my shoes let alone get under my skin. For the record, you are no match against Hulk Hogan.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by David
If I'm not mistaken, that's a Hulk Hogan character bio for that programme about the power boat "Something Thunder".


Thunder in Paradise. I used to watch that show.

[David]

Too much information, 7* ;)

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

SevenStar,

Did Thunder in Paradise get past it's first season?

[Glimmer]

Wow..this thread has gone off-topic, slightly.

Hey David - I realise you are based down in the south, but are you considering going along to the upcoming chow gar seminar with the grandmaster in London? Anyone else?

I'm trying to track down some details as it sounds **** good!

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Glimmer,

What are the details? I want to go and give a talk about my experiences with spm. Is there wheelchair access?

Is it in Liverpool? If it is, I will meet you at Liverpool station.

[Ben Gash]

Ego, you do make me laugh sometimes.

[David]

I don't have any details yet but I would like to be there. It's been too long since I last went to London and even longer since I trained with GM.

Will the seminar be open? Start a thread...

Rgds,
David

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

David,

But when was the last time you were at Liverpool? I'll be there too to give a talk I hope.

[Buby]

What up man?

Maybe if you're ever in NYC we can hook up and do some training. I've trained in Thai and I've been training in Yau Kung Mun Kung Fu for the last 4yrs. There are some similarities and some huge differences, main one being mindset/intent.

I understand that you had some Chinese MA training, long fist if I read correctly. My hand is short, so it might be a new experience for you. Give me a holla if you're interested.

Take care,
Buby

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Buby,

I can come down to train with you in Central Park

[Buby]

Let me know when and please don't waste my time. If you are going to be there, I will meet up with you. I'm always willing to link up with people to train and talk Kung fu.

Take care,
Buby

PS- Maybe then you can tell me about this YKM school you saw in Jeresy.

[HopGar]

Ahh, it's been a while since I checked this place out...ppl are still feeding the troll? Wow, somethings never change. We all know Ego was not in Vietnam, and we also know he is Kelvin. (Take that, troll boy!)

As for the topic, I haven't seen enough of either one, but from what I have seen, they both resemble the mantis to a degree.

Peace

[SevenStar]

I think it went for 2 seasons.

[SevenStar]

I'm definitely interested. Whenever I have plans to go up that way, I'll drop you a PM. What is the difference in intent?



Originally posted by Buby
What up man?

Maybe if you're ever in NYC we can hook up and do some training. I've trained in Thai and I've been training in Yau Kung Mun Kung Fu for the last 4yrs. There are some similarities and some huge differences, main one being mindset/intent.

I understand that you had some Chinese MA training, long fist if I read correctly. My hand is short, so it might be a new experience for you. Give me a holla if you're interested.

Take care,
Buby

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by David
Too much information, 7* ;)

:D

[Buby]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I'm definitely interested. Whenever I have plans to go up that way, I'll drop you a PM. What is the difference in intent?

In a ring, at most all I'm trying to do is out score or KO' you ( Mind you if I get in trouble it ain't that serious cause the ref is there and so is my corner) and I think a lot people also fall into this trap.

In the street, I look for a KO', a limb, or whatever it takes (if you get my drift), and there is no corner or ref to save my arse should I fnck up. I guess you can say my intent is in "no playing games mode" and I'll do whatever it takes to make it alive (ya feel me!).

Don't get me wrong some might say its the same, but I see them differently.

I look forward to your pm. I'm sure we can borrow my bros thai gym to train, so jus give me a holla.

Take care,
Buby

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Buby,

I can meet you at central park this weekend. Just look for the guy in a wheel chair with boxing gloves on.

HopGar,

where have you been all this time? we used to have great conversations on line. Have you been touring Vietnam?

[Glimmer]

"Just look for the guy in a wheel chair with boxing gloves on."

That brings to mind a comedic image of genuisetic proportions...did you steal that from a Farrelly brothers film or something?

[HopGar]

if by conversation you mean a troll war, then yeah. I've been back and forth between Israel and the US. I wasn't in Nam, but I know someone who thinks he was (hint hint)

Peace!

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Glimmer,

No I didn't. I will be there at central park tomorrow. You will easily recognise me.

HopGar,

You were learning your lessons that time. I hear that Isreal is quite a war zone. It's life changing after you have been in a war.

[Buby]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
Buby,

I can meet you at central park this weekend. Just look for the guy in a wheel chair with boxing gloves on.



Central Park is hugh! Where in CP? Matter of fact....Don't worry, I'll be looking for you..LOLOL

Take care,

Buby

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Buby,

To make things easy, I'll meet you at the west end of central park at Columbus circle. It's actually just outside central park. I can be there this sat.

[Buby]

What time?

Bubyaaaahhh

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Buby,

What time would you like? I don't have much to do these days except polishing my medals and downing a bud or two.

[Buby]

Whatever time is best for you! I'm free all day Saturday. Plus, since you're coming in from Jerz I think its only right for you to pick a time.

Take care,

Buby

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Buby,

I will try to get there around midday.

[Royal Dragon]

I haven't looked at this thread in it's entirety, but I have a few observations.

On the Southern/ Northern Mantis looking like the bug thing:

Northern Mantis is descendent in large part from Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. Tai Tzu uses ALOT of Monkey footwork (old school Monkey 650 AD stuff), and in turn the Northern Mantis does the same. An actual mantis bug however has little to no foot work, and is very stationary in it's tactics. (Find one and fight it, you will see what I mean)

Yes, the Northern has hooks and such in the hand work, but I feel the footwork of the Southern Mantis is much more represenitive of the actual Bug than the Northern's is.

On the other hand, because of the use of the "Mantis hands" in the Northern, I feel it also imitates the bug as well. The two arts, although seperate BOTH imitate the Mantis. It's just each style is imitateing different aspects of the famous Bug.

[David Jamieson]

I can't believe there are 174 replies to such a stupid question :p

is one better than the other...yeesh

who don't got no fu whatsoever? :p

lol@ the inanity of this thread

[cerebus]

Wow! No kidding! You'd think everyone would know by now that Northern Mantis is better! :D

[David]

I'm proud to have been active in this inane thread.

[Frogman]

One thing is for sure you bicker like northern mantis.

RibHit
fm

Oh and NPM is better because I don’t know anything about SPM.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Buby,

Thanks for taking the time to meet up with me on saturday. I didn't know you were Mexican. I thought your were Asian or something. But it was a good place that we went to for nachos.

RoyalDragon,

The thread is not about who looks more like a mantis but which is better north or south. I think you have answered this question when you said that southern mantis has no footwork. This is the point which I have been making but some heads are too thick for words to get through.

Kung Lek,

So what's your answer besides some retard's laugh.

cerebus,

There are plenty of people who are newbies in kung fu. it is for us to educate them so that they don't waste their money and time on southern mantis. with gret knowledge comes great responsibility.

David,

prides come before a fall. but you'll bounce right back up if you have a large ego.

Frogman,

It's actually southern mantis that biker and have all types or intra clan wars when they are no ratting on their sifus or senior students in their own class. That's just the way farmers are like, bikering like the swines they barter.

[n0bbY]

I know it's probably stupid joining this discussion so far in, as I am sure anything I say has already been said, probably far more articulately than I will.

I think it's a common misconception that Southern Mantis has no foot work, any person who has studied SPM under a master for more just a short period of time not just watched video clips or bought a book will testify to this.

What Tong Long does emphasise is the rooting (grounding) of the body just before hitting. This serves two purposes (from what I understand any other SPM please correct me if I'm incorrect.)

1. The sucking up as much energy from the ground as possible.
2. Being completely centred whilst hitting, for obvious reasons.

Once you have hit and you need to move we can do as quickly as the best styles. What we do not do however, is pointless (my opinion only) jumping around needlessly expending energy.

I think it's ignorant to assume that the infighting that has occurred within our style is only limited to Tong Long. However, due to the internet it’s far more apparent. Please remember Tong Long has even reached its 10th Generation yet. Where other styles are past 20th..

One thing that I'm sure of is any practitioner despite their lineage will agree that SPM is an amazing system with so many gems too offer you could spend life times studying it.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Nobby,

Forget all about he mystical stuff about sucking energy from the ground. As far as I'm concerned, boxers bounce around much more than spm and pack a much more powerful punch. how can you explain that.

Royal Dragon is right, spm has no footwork.

[Royal Dragon]

I didn't mean the South had NO footwork, only the actual Bug. I meant the South used stationary rooting more (As explained above). It's footwork, and rooting methods are INSPIRED by the actual Bug. The Northern seems more inspred by the Bug's hand work. Especially since it's footwork is well known to be largely from the Old school Monkey styles.

[n0bbY]

Very rarely do you see a boxer tear faces and take teeth out with their hits.

I've experienced many different hits to my face. Let's just say a punch has never made me see black. A Pai Sou dropped on my neck on the other hand has.

Boxers are fit, well conditioned athletes. As far as fighting skills they would only be good against styles that don't have full contact or those that don't like in fighting.

Everyone is entitled to there own opinion but I know what I've seen and felt of Tong Long and am always eager for more.

Andrew

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Royal Dragon,

I see, you're saying that Southern Mantis has stationary footwork, well that's just great only if you can control the world moving around you.

Your line of argument goes like this, the insect is more grounded than a primate. Is it because the insect has 6 legs compared to a primate which has 2?

Nooby,

Boxers are pretty good at full contact fighting from the matches they have with one another. Many professional boxers have seen black by being hit in the face - it's called a knock out. Yes everyone can have their own opinion but sometimes you have to face reality that they can hit better and move better than southern mantis.

[David Jamieson]

lol@trollgo extrodinaire.

dude, the only retarded laughter i hear is the wind...blowing through your brain pan.

yer such a noob dude. anyway, I'll bite the troll bait and see what's at the end of the line.

#1-your comment about bouncing boxers demonstrates a phenomenal lack of any knowledge whatsoever about boxing.

shifting footwork is not bouncing. Maybe you're thinking of tkd? Which is of course different from boxing.

secondly, arguing about one style over another being better is nonsense. Style is a tool set. Some sets are more repleat with a selection of tools and others are less so but no less effective in teh hands of the right person.

so, both styles are empty and meaningless without the stylists who express them.

Now, having said that, I don't think I've heard of any mantis players north or south winning any majour matches yet either in or out of the ring on teh street or otherwise. I've never heard anyone say, "my mantis style saved me and that elderly woman from a burglar".

ergo, this thread is asking a stupid question...

anyway...have at it ladies. :p

[Buby]

That's funny! I was working on Saturday. Oh, I'm not Mexican by the way. Nice try though!


Take care,
Jorge

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Kung Lek,

What ever you wish to call what boxers do, southern mantis doesn't do. Bottom line, boxers hit harder, faster and move better than southern mantis.

I agree styles provide a tool set. If northern mantis were a tool set from an iron age, southern mantis would be from a stone age. I agree the skill of a practitioner matters a great deal but so does the quality of the tools.

Tools are also developed to fix problems at hand. Think of a dumb @ss douthern farmer, he has less fighting problems to fix than a warrior from the north. Who do do think would have better sets of tools in the end, in addition to fighting skill.

Buby,

Well I met someone who went by the name of Buby and was mexican and did kung fu. We had corona and ate Nachos After that we had a brief sparring session until some cops thought he was trying to beat up on a guy in his wheel chair. I had to explain that he and I were good friends from the kungfu forum.

So why did you not let me know that you were working. i had to come all the way from NJ. Some friend you are.

[David]

:rolleyes: @ ego

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by n0bbY
Very rarely do you see a boxer tear faces and take teeth out with their hits.

very rarely do you see a cma do this either. Theoretially, All of them can, but realistically, I see WAY more boxers KO people than I see cma "tear faces and take teeth out"

I've experienced many different hits to my face. Let's just say a punch has never made me see black. A Pai Sou dropped on my neck on the other hand has.

try this... Go to a boxing or thai boxing gym. Heck, go to a san shou gym. glove up and go balls to the wall. if you don't see black, you'll see stars.

Boxers are fit, well conditioned athletes. As far as fighting skills they would only be good against styles that don't have full contact or those that don't like in fighting.

see my above comment.

It's weird how ego is the troll (which he is) but makes more sense than some of the others here sometimes...

[David]

When you're making sense with one side of your mouth and talking crap with the other, it ain't something special.

Ego's a defective fool. Ego - kiss my ass.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Buby,

So are you free this sat to go to Tijuana with my mexico friend I met last week when you were a no show? We're going to drink Tequila and eat some $2 pu$$y - like the gold ole days when I was in Nam. By the way, I'm voting for Kerry. He's a real hero not some phoney cowboy.

SevenStar,

I have not always been in a wheel chair. A lot of people talk about the things they're supposed to be able to do because they are learning from instructors who were supposed to have masters who could do those things. That's the problem with closed doors styles, they'll evaporate when exposed to light. I pitty these people who avtually think poorly of boxers and sports men.

David,

When one's mouth cannot be differentiated from their a$$, that's you. You can kiss yourself.

[Royal Dragon]

Royal Dragon,

I see, you're saying that Southern Mantis has stationary footwork, well that's just great only if you can control the world moving around you.

Your line of argument goes like this, the insect is more grounded than a primate. Is it because the insect has 6 legs compared to a primate which has 2?

Reply]
No, I'm saying Southern Mantis roots more than the Northern, and has more compact footwork. It resembles the actual Mantis bug's foot work more. Serously, go to the pet store, buy a mantis bug and tease it, you will see what I am talking about concerning the footwork of Southern Preying Mantis Kung Fu and which aspect of the actual Bug it draws it's inspiration from.

Nooby,

Boxers are pretty good at full contact fighting from the matches they have with one another. Many professional boxers have seen black by being hit in the face - it's called a knock out. Yes everyone can have their own opinion but sometimes you have to face reality that they can hit better and move better than southern mantis.

Reply]
I don't belive that for a second. I've seen a bit of South Mantis here in the Chicago area, and bare handed, I don't think a Boxer would touch those guys. The South Mantis guy would take him out of his element as soon as thier hands touched in my opinion.

A Boxer can only "Move" better in certian things. South Mantis is far more diveres in tactic, and a good player would not be easy to deal with, especially since a Boxer is only trained to fight in the limited venue boxers are trained to fight in. I'd give a BJJ/MMA guy better odds against them (either one Mantis/Boxing) anyday.

Boxer's just have to narrow of a focus, they would be way to out of thier element in a fight against a South Mantis guy successfully.

[Frogman]

:rolleyes:
RibHit
fm

[Frogman]

:rolleyes:
RibHit
fm

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Royal Dragon,

Three you go again, refering to the footwork of an actual bug. How do you find this insect to be more rooted than a monkey? Both can be found in trees.

In other words you don't actually know what would happen to the SPM if come against a boxer as you said you haven't seen that type of match up before. That's quite a presumptious conclusion you came to, especailly when a related style called Wing Chun has proven itself to be no match against boxing.

Why then have you not seen SPM going against BJJ guys in the Octogon. Have a read of some earlier posts. Misguided SPMs think that ultimate fighting is just a sport but wouldn't go so far as you to say the odds are in the SPM favor.

[David]

Remember, folks: Ego has no idea about spm footwork - he already said it didn't have any (his way of claiming ignorance).

Doesn't Wing Chun footwork bears more resemblance to boxing rather than spm?

Spm footwork is as reduced and sharp as its hands. When the hands are occupied, the legs compliment them. The stances are part of the strikes and happen at the moment of hitting or being hit.

Isn't it true that most boxers don't think about the feet in the sense of matching footwork to their hand-game?

Ego and UFC sitting in a tree
Kay I Ess Ess I En Gee

-David

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by David

Isn't it true that most boxers don't think about the feet in the sense of matching footwork to their hand-game?



Can you clarify that one?

[David]

This goes back to a conversation (or thread) of long ago where I heard/read about Rocky Marciano, the undefeated heavyweight boxer (49-0) who usually won by KO. He was apparently unusual in that he'd drop (ie root) into his lead foot as he landed a punch, and it was this rooting that set him apart from (most) other boxers and enabled him to hit as hard as he did.

'Most' boxers would, if anything particular, punch off a spring from the rear-foot - a method I experienced in my little time with Wing Chun. Or at other times be on their toes or even in mid-air.

Though spm has recourse to rooting in the rear foot when needed, I don't think it has the same emphasis. It seems to me that the momentum of the leading leg provides the spm weight and root as it hits the ground (and hopefully bridges with the opponent's leg) at the same instant the hand strike lands.

Rgds,
David

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

David,

Your movements will be very restricted if you alawys have to hit with both feet planted on the ground. No. SPM footwork resembles wing chun, not boxing.

Since when do you see boxers train in the silly square walking with wedged shaped arms and pheonix fist hands, shuffling back and foth, back and foth.

[SevenStar]

I think you're referring to boxing's falling step, david. It's an awkward movement, which is probably why you don't see it so much. it's also sometimes used in thai boxing with a front push kick.

Is that what you meant by matching footwork to hand game? boxers do an excellent job of it. it's that drive off of the ball of the foot that gives a cross it's KO power. It's the spin and push off of the front leg that give a hook it's sting. you'd be surprised how much root boxers have.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Seven Star,

"Spm footwork is as reduced and sharp as its hands. When the hands are occupied, the legs compliment them. The stances are part of the strikes and happen at the moment of hitting or being hit."

I see where David's problem is. SPM like wing chun uses fast but distinct movements and you can easily recognize the stances at the end of the hits. As a result he fails to see that boxers have the stances found in kung fu but are moving through them in a continous motion. Because he hasn't fought a boxer he things that boxers are not rooted when they hit.

That's the problem with the darn southern kung fu training, it teaches students to hold static stances for strength training but doesn't tell them it is for training purposes only. In real fighting, you are transitioning through them.

Conclusion: David has a problem in his training.

[Buby]

Boxers do have root! It's just different to a Kung Fu mans root.

There are reasons why a Kung fu man roots with his heel and not the toes. Throw a cross or bridge up, hold your posture when the punch is fully extended, while rooting on your toes. Now have some one push against your fist or bridge, 9 times out of 10 your rear leg will give. That does not happen when your foot is rooted using the heel. We smash, trap, off set and hit at close range(w/ lots of power, w/o out much effort) in order to do so, you need to root yourself fully to get the most out your body. Also, one can stay light on their feet and only root when pulling off a tech.

At the end of the day it's all good! Just a different road to the same place. KOville!

Take care,
Buby

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

David,

It's stupid to root with your heels. You will be forever leaning backwards and have your chin exposed for an upper cut and bread basker for low down blows. Moreover, you won't be able to do any leg tappings either.

So what if you get pushe back through your bridge. This should be giving you the force to change the angle of attack.

The problem with SPM is that it is very static. When it has gotten into a position it holds on to that line eventhough there is no more strategic advantage. It is not a very smart system.

[Buby]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
David,

It's stupid to root with your heels. You will be forever leaning backwards and have your chin exposed for an upper cut and bread basker for low down blows. Moreover, you won't be able to do any leg tappings either.

So what if you get pushe back through your bridge. This should be giving you the force to change the angle of attack.

The problem with SPM is that it is very static. When it has gotten into a position it holds on to that line eventhough there is no more strategic advantage. It is not a very smart system.

Ego,

Don't know if this is for me or for david, but if for me, I don't train SPM.

How in the world would I lean backwards if my whole foot is rooted, rather than being up on my toes? What does having your foot rooted have to do with your chin being exposed? Leg tapping? Can you please explain this one? I wanna make sure I'm on the same page.

Yes, but how do you plan on changing angles? If you are on your toes and I fubo(tiger step) in and chum(sink) or bui(thrust) your bridge, I'm going to force you to plant your foot (cause your heel is off the ground and will be forced down due to the impact, you will naturally root to gain some balance and give support to your structure), which will make you heavy rooted...so if you don't mind, please explain to me how do you plan on pivoting? You see this happen in boxing, look at the Trinidad and Hopkins fight. Every time trindad would get on the ball of his toes Hopkins knew he was going to come in, so all he did was apply pressure and there went Trini's back heel, planting its self and taking him off rythm. You need a strong foundation before you can dissolve or absorb someone else's energy. At least this is my limited understanding.


Take care,
Buby

[n0bbY]

Ego,

It seems you talk a lot of **** about SPM but at the end of the day have no idea what the system encompasses pass the very few basic foundation levels. So I'm writing final reply to hopefully clear up a few things that I feel are flawed in your arguement.

Unfortunately, your talk is similar to the other hundreds of students that come to the school thinking their Tae Kwon Do and Karate black belts will help them, and before warmups like to impress themselves with how high they can kick. At least until the start of jong training against a students who have been there for 6 months and get shocked by our training. (That's not a brag as I'm sure many of the traditional schools are similar to ours).

As for foot work, the basic idea that we promote to the junior levels in our school you must first learn how to be solid (and within your frame work) when you hit. Just like in any sport / martial art you need to learn the foundations before you progress to the higher level techniques. For SPM this requires the constant training of mar (foot) work.
Otherwise when sparring does occur people jump in and out trying to get cheap shots and being sloppy which isn't what our system is about.

Anyone who's trained the system for a decent amount of time will let you know that once you start getting a bit higher in the system you are allowed more freedom with movement, in fact you are encouraged to become fluid and nature in everything you do (I imagine this is similar in all systems as you progress as well).

I know your reply will be something like a boxer will kick my arse because <insert reason here>, or SPM sucks because <insert reason here>, but I've fought boxers, muay thai and lots of thugs. Won some I've lost some but that's not a system flaw rather a personal training flaw. It really doesn't what martial art you practice depending on what you want out of it as they are all a learning and growing experience.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Buby,

My friend how hae you been. Wasn't it a great time we had in Mexico eating $2 pu$$y and drinking coronas. I know you don't train SPM. But to answer your question, whether you are on the ball of your foot or whole foot or feet on the ground is variable. Fighting is dynamic and one shouldn't be locked into one position to the exclusion of all else.

If you are rooting with your heels (ie the rest of your feet are not taking your weight) then you must be leaning backwards.

Nooby.

If you think that spm roots so well, why isn't that style the consistent winner in ultimate fighting. It is BJJ where the feet does leave the ground.

I disagree with any training which gives greater freedom of movement at an advance level. How stupid must one be to buy into that statement. By restricting movement you are restricting tactics and strategy. The sillyness of your training starts with the fixation on training static stances. SPM lacks mobility that's why it doesn't do well against boxers and has never dared step foot into the octogan. The style would not only be firmly rooted, it will be totally screwed. Do you have anything else to add?

[Buby]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
[B]Buby,

My friend how hae you been. Wasn't it a great time we had in Mexico eating $2 pu$$y and drinking coronas. I know you don't train SPM. But to answer your question, whether you are on the ball of your foot or whole foot or feet on the ground is variable. Fighting is dynamic and one shouldn't be locked into one position to the exclusion of all else.

- I agree! You root when executing a tech. and for no other reason. When can move freely and still root when punching. It's called footwork!lolol

If you are rooting with your heels (ie the rest of your feet are not taking your weight) then you must be leaning backwards.

- LOLOL I had a feeling thats what you ment.LOLOL


Take care,
Buby

[HopGar]

Actually ego, Israel is not a war zone and whoever told you that (media, some dumb-ass liberal, etc) has no clue. And by the way, if "you were in Nam" (and we all know you were not) I wasn't even alive then, so that gives you a clue as to how old I am.

As for the subject as hand, I'm sure that even though SPM trains "static stances" as you would call it, I'm sure once you have the basics down, then you start moving, and probably real quickly too. Then again, I'm not a manis practicioner so what do I know (I'm not going to read the whole thread b/c I really couldn't care less about what Ego has to say and the completely illogical arguements he presents as well as everyone elses' futile attempts to enlighten him)?

See y'all

[Frogman]

:confused:
Then why do it?
I find it entertaining that so many people would argue footwork with someone claiming to be in a wheel chair. Maybe we could discus turns ratio instead.

RibHit
fm
:rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

actually, ego's made some very valid points in this thread. some of his statements have been obvious troll attempts, but he's had some good points as well.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

HopGar,

How sure can you be when you don't speak from experience. Look a a long distance runner and say a basket ball player. Both have leg strength and balance, but the basket ball player has the explosive edge. Restricting movements as a beginner and a fixation on static stances does not help movement.

You know nothing about kung fu and even less about war. You try to talk about kung fu like Bush talks about war. I like Kerry had been to war, I also speak about kung fu from experience.

Frogman,

I was a machine gunner and sure know about the turn ratios of the gatling gun. Although I am now in a wheel chair, I had once got use of my legs.

[HopGar]

Now I'm confused......someone want to explain what the heck he's rambling about..I never claimed to be an "all-powerful all knowing kung fu man." I'm going to ingore this posting as an attempt to **** me off and an obvious troll posting. For now.

[HopGar]

One more thing ego.......did you win 3 purple hearts?

Peace

[cerebus]

LOL! Hey Hop Gar. You're obviously unfamiliar with ego. EVERY post of his is a troll post. He's a troll, it's what he does. Later. ;)

[HopGar]

Actually I'm trolling the troll.....it's getting quite amusing

[cerebus]

LOL! :D I'm shadowing "blooming lotus" myself and pointing out her false information and lies. That really gets her riled up! :D Who says trolls aren't entertaining? :D :p

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Hop Gar,

You didn't claim to be an all poweful kung fu man. I just told you that you are ignorant that's all. However you are claiming to be a troll. I am a troll, Seven Star said so, but I'm a troll with very valuable things to say, Seven Star said so. Who are you to call yourself a troll! I was awarded a number of medals for doing lots of terminating in nam.

cerebus,

Well done cerebus I see you like to be blooming lotus side kick to keep us all amused. If she's a comdian then you're her jester.

[HopGar]

You didn't claim to be an all poweful kung fu man. I just told you that you are ignorant that's all. However you are claiming to be a troll. I am a troll, Seven Star said so, but I'm a troll with very valuable things to say, Seven Star said so. Who are you to call yourself a troll! I was awarded a number of medals for doing lots of terminating in nam.

Hahaha, that's funny. Again words in my mouth. Imagine that?:rolleyes: :p And clearly I have gotten my rise out of you, so I am content. Now, onward with the subjet at hand!

Peace!

[cerebus]

LOL! Looks like I hurt ego's feelings by pointing out how he & bl are practically twin kittens. :p :p Isn't he the cutest fluffy little thing when he's angry? :p

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

HopGar,

Don't you have a boss to give you a raise than to get a rise from being a trollie. I troll, because I am a troller, that's just what I do. Seven Star said so.

Cerebus,

I have never talked to blooming lotus to know what sort of troll she is. She might be a cutie troll and we can strike up something and call it Shreik 3 or 3.5. If you want to see troll vs troll, then bring her to this post. May the best troll win.

[cerebus]

LOL! We tried to set you two up for a "troll-off" once but it didn't work out. I think she's afraid of you. :D

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Cerebus,

You're a knuckle headed southern kung fu man who perserviers in the most stupid things. Try harder, this may be the most worthy thing you can do for yourself.

[HopGar]

Actually Ego, I just got a raise, thank you. This is just funny. Look at the little kitty....so cute.......oh goodness, it has claws. Ooh seven star gave label.........big whoopdeefriggindo

Enjoy and peace

[HopGar]

What I meant was, I just got a raise. I'm amusing myself. Got a problem with that?

[SevenStar]

At least he will bring up a valid point. I don't think BL has EVER done so...

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

SevenStar,

I think all of my points are valid. At this stage of my life, I have plenty of time to read up on the history about martial arts. Some of the material I'm sure would be made public in a number of years time. I can understand why those who are less well read may find what I have to say contentious and in some cases down right offensive.

But I won't take this to heart, I've mellowed down alot in my old age, although I was one hell of a jacked up GI ready to go on patrol.

I have also had a chance to read some of BL laterst works. She comes across as one who is philosophical and spiritual. There is much that those grunts on the forum can learn from her. If this is waht you mean by troll, then Buddah himself would have been proud to be one.

[phoenix-eye]

I have nothing to contibute at all on NPM/SPM

However, I have read all 17 pages of this and can safely say that it is the only thread on any forum that has reduced me to tears of laughter.

Thank you all.

PE

Ego - have you considered a career in standup?

(grasp the irony.....)

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

phoenix-eye,

You know, on a dark and stormy nite in some back street ally of the roughest parts of NJ and I'm confronted by 6 knife wilding homies, making them laugh is my only defence.

It's not like I'm afraid to face death, believe me when you have been to nam and laughed at death in the face, you know that you're going to die an honorable dealth not be stabbed up by some gang of low life punk.

I'm publishing a book on self realization the maximus way. Hopefully BL will be so kind to co-author it, thereby providng phylosophical insight and spirituality to tone down my hard edge GI style.

[Brad]

A book co-authored by you and bl? I'd just like to say that I support this venture whole heartedly :cool:

[Frogman]

Phoenix-eye,
Ditto

Brad,
I’m sure it will be a fictional story, perhaps a love story of two people lost in themselves that find each other on the internet. Thousands of mile apart yet their love and passion grows. In the end no longer able to live apart they hang themselves with their mouse cables. The forum is restored. The End.


RibHit
fm

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Frogman,

Maybe you could be one of the characters in the elaborate plot. You could either be the Prince that when kissed turns into a frog or just a half man half frog.

But I must say, BL is posting in just about every corner of the forum don't you think and she's been doing that for a long time.

[Frogman]

:eek:

E,
That’s very clever half frog half man you could call me frogman.
I am a little disappointed with your extraordinary imagination I would have expected a better response. In fact I was hoping you were going to pull the big guns maybe a 175mm. Oh well, maybe we should just let this thread die since I agree with you that NPM is better then SPM but as I stated I no nothing about SPM. Now I’m going to have a bunch of SPM ninja waiting for me in the parking lot, I will use the deadly frog hop kick and tongue lashing technique to defeat them in two moves. This is the same way I get most of my dates. My last ditch effort would be to use my P-38, I’m sure you have a few of these laying around…
Good luck with the book.

RibHit
fm

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Frogman,

At least you should be happy that I didn't call you a man in a frog suit. But my days of taking out big guns are long over. These days I rely on tactful dialogue and imaginative negotiational skills. Hell I may run for president oneday.

[SevenStar]

enough of the back and forth nonsense. Let's go back to discussing someting MA related. I've been deleting posts from the end of this thread, as I don't want to close it - there's some good stuff here. But if you can't stop the bickering, I'll have no other alternative.