The Last Samurai - Awesome DVD

[YinYangDagger]

The DVD came out Tuesday. Even better the second time around. The DVD comes with 2 DVD's: 1 of the actual movie, the other full of Special Features (Tom Cruise's training, Weapons, Deleted Scenes, etc.)

The ninja were still the coolest :D

[Tit Sa]

Gimme a fukin break,...that is the most racist BS movie ever.

[YinYangDagger]

LOL :rolleyes:

[Chang Style Novice]

I am racist against Tom Cruise.

What a tool.

[rubthebuddha]

you're racist against short people? :confused:

[Kristoffer]

don't hate the big nosed, they can't help it

n yea the ninjas ruled that movie

[red5angel]

racist??

[Chinwoo-er]

Logic:

Ninjas -> Black people -> racist

Come on, Tom cruise being able to beat two ninjas ?? That is the most racist scene there is !! It is sooooo obvious it is the 'white beats black' mentality at work here. I am all against it.

I mean, how would those baby ninjas in the future think about themselves when they watch that movie ? Imagine the blow of self-esteem they will get. How inconsiderate of hollywood !! :mad:

[MasterKiller]

"The only thing that kept The Last Samurai from being another bad Kevin Costner film was the mysterious absence of Kevin Costner.--" MasterKiller.

Quoting myself makes it extra true.

[DragonzRage]

some cool fight scenes in that movie, but the premise was pretty ridiculous. White guy goes to Japan and becomes friends with samurai. He learns their ways and magically becomes tougher than pretty much all of them. Beautiful widow of the samurai he killed falls in love with this great white superhero for whatever reason. After the great battle, low and behold the "last samurai" standing is the white guy. He alone returns to the village where he presumably lives happily ever after with his Japanese girlfriend, while all the Japanese warriors who fought alongside him pretty much bit the dust.

I wouldn't call the movie overtly racist, but it was unintentionally condescending and ignorant. And for a movie that was supposed to be about the end of the samurai era, it was completely inaccurate from a historical perspective and lacked any real focus on its intended subject. A more accurate name for the film would've been "Tom Cruise/Ed Zwick's Samurai Fantasy".

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Tit Sa
Some "white guy" travels to feudal Japan to train the enemies of the Samurai.

Kills a samurai and then these stupid samurai's in some psychotic military tactic "to know the enemy" decides to teach this enemy the samurai's techniques; who isn't even Japanese.

What are the chances of a samurai in feudal Japan teach his methods to someone not in his social class? much less a foriegner who happens to be his enemy?

Maybe we should teach Osama our military secrects in order to "know our enemy" better!

Then on top of all that, the dead samurai's wife falls in love with her husband's murderer !

What will those fukin jews in hollywood think of next?

make a 2nd one and have adam sandler star in it as his happy gilmore character? :D

[Arhat of Fury]

Maybe we should teach Osama our military secrects in order to "know our enemy" better!

He already knew them.

[Tit Sa]

That was before he became our enemy. How wise is it to teach him now?

[Chang Style Novice]

Tit Sa -

I was with you up until the last sentence of your post.

That said, go **** yourself, you Nazi piece of ****.

[YinYangDagger]

Man. Get a grip folks. It's a MOVIE. As in FANTASY. As in ENTERTAINMENT. Like Star Wars, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Matrix, etc. So you guys think these were made on a "realistic" basis????

Sometimes I swear martial artists are just like a buch of whiny pu$$ies sometimes. wah wah wah STFU already.

[Chang Style Novice]

If you don't understand the difference between the expectations raised by an explicit fantasy piece like Raiders, Matrix, Star Wars, etc. and the expectations raised by allegedly real-world historical dramas like Last Samurai, Dances With Wolves, and Braveheart, I dunno if there's any way to get through to you.

[YinYangDagger]

If I want history, I read a book. If I want gross misrepresentation of facts, I watch CNN. If I want entertainment, I watch a movie.

And as far as Braveheart, you got the English saying that the movie was pure fiction, and it never happened that way. And I never have read where the Last Samurai was supposed to be a "real-world" historical drama. I've been to the website, read countless articles, saw the DVD with all the "extras", not ONCE did I see it mentioned as a historical fact movie.

The point is, there are b!tches on this board that like to argue for arguments sake. That like to put down every single post that someone makes, that loves to "toot their own horn" in regards to their bullsh!t belief system. Like I said, it's a movie for crying out loud, if you watch ANY movie for anything other than fantasy, that's your business. I don't. The movie JFK comes to mind - which was supposed to be a "real world" historical drama. The fact is most people that are like the ones mentioned above has no idea of the concept "real world".

I like the DVD, I'm sure others did to. If you don't, don't buy it. Who the fu@k cares?? Geezus, I'll be glad when some of you get off the rag.

[Judge Pen]

Sure it's entertainment and films are never going to teach you an accurate account of history (but if you beleive your history book will you're just as delusional). A good historical film doesn't get the historical facts right, rather it gets the tone of the time down. the culture, the attitudes, the politics of the time. If an entire movie is fantasy but those things accurately reflect the period of time where the film is set, then its a good historical fiction film.

[YinYangDagger]

Sure it's entertainment and films are never going to teach you an accurate account of history (but if you beleive your history book will you're just as delusional).

I meant that in a rhetorical context, JP. EDITED SNIPPY REMARK ABOUT GM THE OUT OF RESPECT FOR HIS MOTHER'S DEATH.

[Judge Pen]

I was actually supporting your film opinion YYD. As for GM The, there's no reason to get snippy. Besides, his mother recently passed away so I'd say he is not too well right now.

[YinYangDagger]

Sorry to hear that JP.

[DragonzRage]

No a movie does not have to be completely "historically accurate". But if you want to make a historical fiction/drama, you can only push the suspension of disbelief so far before the movie just stops working. To enjoy "The Last Samurai", it would've been necessary for me to be put into the historical context at least somewhat believably. I loved the fight scenes, cinematography, etc, but the story and plot simply DIDN'T WORK. It was IMPLAUSIBLE and STUPID. Let's say I made a historical drama fiction movie about the civil war. Does it have to be 100% accurate? No. But if I threw in a bunch of Roman gladiator assassins and made Chow Yun Fat the last Confederate soldier standing at the battle of Gettysburg, it simply wouldn't make sense no matter how good the action was. I would prefer that movies entertain me without insulting my intelligence.

By the way, you're entitled to your opinion but don't insult people. If you don't want others to voice an opinion about something then don't friggin bring it up in the first place. a$$hole

I hope you enjoy your dvd!:D

[YinYangDagger]

yeah, you tell'em Dragonz

thanks for having my back

you a$$holes

:D

[kenso]

The samurais' plan:
1. Teach the white guy our way of life and our martial ways.
2. ???
3. Profit!

[joedoe]

Originally posted by kenso
The samurais' plan:
1. Teach the white guy our way of life and our martial ways.
2. ???
3. Profit!

They need to steal underrwear too :D

My $0.02 worth is that if you are going to create a period-piece movie, you should be true to the culture and societal norms of the period. If you are not going to attempt to portray that faithfully, then why bother doing a period-piece?

[Radhnoti]

joedoe - "If you are not going to attempt to portray that faithfully, then why bother doing a period-piece?"

Because samurai are ultra-cool, and hollywood has studies, and answers from focus groups, indicating that mainstream U.S. audiences (mostly white) don't identify with a non-white protagonist. Thus, Tom Cruise as a samurai.

I suppose if you're gonna call it "racist" instead of "money-driven" you're going to have to point the finger at U.S. society as a whole. And correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't samurai and Japanese society of the time shown in an ennobling way in the film? I'd venture to guess that the film, overall, has had a positive impact by bringing SOME idea of that period's Japanese culture to the world...

[joedoe]

I understand the reasons, I just don't agree with them that's all :)

[dodger87]

Thats just how films are made. Im sure you all would hate the Once upon a Time in china series if it had Van Damme or Wesley Snipes. I don't think it was hollywoods intention to give all the Japanese glory to the white man but they were just profit driven.

[Tit Sa]

And how is Last Samurai motivated by profit? As opposed to being a condescending bias movie?

How is changing the evil husband from a novel from a white guy to a chinese guy in the movie motivated by profit?

Why is Jungle Fever a controversial movie? and James Bond banging Halle Barrie normal?

Subtle manipulative racism is the norm now, since outright overt racism is against the law.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Tit Sa
If my memory is correct in this; Amy Tan's book "The Joy Luck Club" one of the mother's horrible husband who cheated on her is a WHITE GUY, but after hollyjew...I mean Hollywood made the movie the cheating husband is Chinese (played by Russel Wong, prob. one of the most masculine asian actors in the US, well at least he isn't portrayed as a asexual goofy nerd) Your memory is wrong. The white guy was the daughter's cheating husband in America. He was cheating because the independent-minded Chinese-America girl quit being independent-minded once she married the white boy. She became quiet and self-depricating, like her mother had been.

The mom's cheating husband was a good-looking Chinese guy.

The movie is a pretty acurate portrayal of the book.

[red5angel]

holy sheeeeit. :eek: I can't believe this thread.

The Last Samurai - good action flick. Like a lot of the movies I watched a s akid involving kungfu, fantastic, but fun to watch none the less. Who doesn't enjoy watching samurai in action?!
Racist? Possibly, if your a retard and can't get over yourself fast enough to realise it's just a movie and not a world conspiracy to put down anyone not "the man" whoever that may be in your small world.
For fukk sakes people, it's a freakin movie. Wait, I just had an epiphany! Maybe The Matrix was a white supremecist film?! I mean think about it, Neo - white, worshipped by a black man from a multiracial culture! Bu tonly Neo, the white guy, can save the humand race?!

Tit Sa - get off your nazi platform, loosen up that brown shirt and relax a little ok? WWII is over and you guys lost ;)

I guess it is true - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4880432/


the rest of you guys need to fukkin relax. I'm pretty sure the movie wasn't made to put the asian man in his place below the white man. Stop getting your skirts in a bundle ofer nothing.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Tit Sa
Why is Jungle Fever a controversial movie? and James Bond banging Halle Barrie normal?

.

'cause look at her!

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Tit Sa


but after hollyjew...I mean Hollywood

Shine, you *******.

[Tit Sa]

Masterkiller-

Thanks for correcting me, it has been quite a while.

But you also helped me show some of the BS that goes on.

In the movie the white guy wasn't cheating, he just ignored her.

So, why did they need to rewrite the story from the cheating white guy into an innocently ignorant white guy?

Less evil maybe?


I'm pretty sure the movie wasn't made to put the asian man in his place below the white man. Stop getting your skirts in a bundle ofer nothing.

Ok, they innocently, CONSTANTLY, put every other man including the asian man in his place below the white man.

Of course it is nothing to you, it wasn't a Japanese Samurai or Arabic warrior who went to Europe and became the Last Knight....

kills a English Nobleman, marries his widow, taken an taught by the European Nobility on tactics and weapons, becomes better at it than them, and after a glorious battle the only survivor, goes back home to his white wife and settles down in the English countryside.

[SimonW]

It's pretty funny hearing how people think this film is either racist or condescending.

My sister lives in Japan teaching English, and she told me that The Last Samurai is often her students favourite recent film!

[Mr. Horse]

There are a few reasons for that.

Japanese girls love Tom and the idea of a Japanese girl and him falling in love is good to them.

Japanese don't see racism the same as other countries


There is discrimination in Japan.

[DragonzRage]

What I found disturbing about this movie is not that it was overtly or intentionally racist (which it wasn't), but that it was UNINTENTIONALLY callous and condescending to the culture that it was supposed to pay tribute to. I read Ed Zwick and Tom Cruise repeatedly express how their movie was meant as an homage to the samurai era and a celebration of this aspect of Japanese culture and history. But if thats the case, why can't the film truly focus on the samurai rather than on an out of place All American idiot like Tom Cruise? As much as the film hollowly tries to portray samurai, in the end the samurai are only there as background to uplift the Tom Cruise character. Their romanticized way of life helps him get past his white guilt and offers him a politically correct pedestal to stand on. Its just ridiculous. Its a shame that some people in hollywood feel that to make a blockbuster film that celebrates another culture, they still need a white hero to stand head and shoulders above everyone else. I don't care about having the movie told through the perspective of a white american. It is after all an american film for mainly american audiences. But do we have to make him the supreme hero? Do we have to make the "the last samurai" a white guy? Does the beautiful exotic Japanese woman have to fall in love with the white dude who killed her mighty samurai husband? Its a bit much in my opinion.

Its not a terribly bad movie by any means, but it just doesn't materialize as what it should have been. Its not a respectful representation of Japanese culture. It just a very thorough expression of white american escapism. Although Tom Cruise and Ed Zwick wanted to express their reverence for Japanese culture and the samurai mythos, they would only be willing to do it on the self serving terms of an All American hero story, which I find quite depressing. I've found (in no great coincidence) that most of the biggest fans of The Last Samurai are white dudes with yellow fever who are enamored with anime and Oriental pseudo-martial mythology. I could see how those guys could fall so deeply in love with this movie. But as an Asian, there was a great deal of the movie which had me shaking my head and rolling my eyes. Nonetheless I wouldn't say I completely disliked the movie. That violent sword master guy's performance alone was almost worth the price of admission.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Tit Sa
Of course it is nothing to you, it wasn't a Japanese Samurai or Arabic warrior who went to Europe and became the Last Knight....

Wasn't that the plot to 13th Warrior?

And in Replacement Killers, didn't a chinese guy put all the white guys in their place?

What the hell is a 'white guy' anyway? Are the Celts, Nordics, and Saxons supposed to have the same culture and genetics now?

[Radhnoti]

The movie was made with the U.S. audience in mind, you play to your audience if you want to make money. I don't imagine many oriental movies, made for an oriental audience, star white guys. You want your audience to identify with the star, it adds to the emotional involvement if a part of you're audience is thinking...even subconsciously, "That could be me!"

Having said that, that guy Bruce Lee ****es me off! It's not enough that he has to kill the U.S. champion Chuck Norris, he's got to fight and defeat Kareem Abdul Jabar, our basketball star as well? And he's always with his smug, "Chinese kung-fu is superior." when the karate guys show up. RACIST I tell ya!

;)

[Chang Style Novice]

I remember that when "Last Samurai" was coming into theaters, the producers made a big deal of justifying the movie by saying it was their adoring fan tribute to Kurosawa.

Well, OK, but we've already got REAL Kurosawa movies out there and on DVD. What do we need some watered-down halfassed BS version of Kurosawa starring everyone's favorite one-note Scientologist gnome for?

Buy Seven Samurai or Ran or Ros****n or Sanjuro or Yojimbo or Men Who Tread on the Tiger's Tail or Hidden Fortress instead.

[DragonzRage]

Radhnoti,

Actually I'd completely agree with you about certain aspects of BL's films being racist. Bruce definitely pandered to his Chinese audience by playing off their feelings of being oppressed by foreigners, beaten the crap out of by Japanese during WWII, etc. Any Chinese person will acknowledge the fact that Bruce intentionally tried to instill Chinese ethnic pride by having the Chinese kung fu guy defeat all his oppressors in those movies. Most Chinese of Bruce's time would've openly expressed how much they hated Japanese, or how much they loved seeing Bruce beat up on white guys in his movies. And this is without a doubt a form of racism.

I know Tom Cruise and Edward Zwick didn't have any real intention of "putting the Asian man down", just as Bruce Lee didn't have any true racist feelings towards Japanese, whites, or anyone else. But just as Bruce made his movies the way he did in order to pander to the Chinese audience, The Last Samurai was made to pander to the American audience. In a way, I don't even blame them for making the movie the way they did. It is after all about generating mass appeal and big bucks in the end. I just find it depressing that THIS is what it takes for a Japanese samurai movie to generate blockbuster appeal in America. As Americans, our culture is supposed to believe that all people regardless of color, culture, or creed should be accepted and perceived with equal respect and affection here in America. I really wish this were true. But all you have to do is pay attention to representations of pop culture such as The Last Samurai and you'll realize that it isn't. Because if it were true, then we certainly wouldn't need the big glorious hero of the film to be white just so audiences could appreciate the story.

Its as if we are incapable of respectfully putting a JAPANESE samurai hero in center stage, and simply exploring and appreciating samurai culture as the outsiders that we are. Nope. We have to put the samurai armor on a white guy who has no business wearing it, and we have to make HIM become the master samurai. And at the end of the day, he can't even die alongside all his Japanese buddies! He alone has to survive and ride into the sunset to go back to the lady waiting for him in his little Japanese paradise. This is how the movie went wrong for me. You either see it, or you don't. I for one do not identify with Tom Cruise even though I am just as American as he is. As an American, I don't feel the need to see a white guy waving a sword in order to enjoy a movie about Japanese samurai. For that matter I also do not need to see exotic looking minority women always falling for white guys in these movies (let alone big bad white guys who killed their husbands). God knows we ain't never gonna see a beautiful blond playboy model travel to Japan and fall in love with Katsumoto.

[Tit Sa]

Wasn't that the plot to 13th Warrior?

If im not mistaken the 13th warrior is the one with Antonio Banderas and the Nordic Warriors?

Well if it is, he certainly didn't kill a Viking and have his "grief stricken" widow fall in love with him later. Nor was he portrayed as superior to the Nordic Warriors; nor was he the LAST VIKING standing; Nor was he their enemy from the start (outsider, yes, but not an enemy), neither did he settle in the Swiss Alps with some blonde hair blue eyed wife.

As for Replacement Killers, sorry didn't see it. Therefore cannot rebutte or concede.

But after seeing The Corrupter, I figured it was the same insulting bias crap, which every cracker with yellow fever come to love, and use as a token of their non-prejudicial righteousness and every minority comes to expect from hollywood.

Radhnoti-

Well if Bruce, truly ticked you off then you got a little taste of how every "minority" male feels.

If the story is true about the Kungfu series...Sh!t, I would be pi$$ed off as much as Bruce too, getting a lame d!ck like David Carridine passing him off as half chinese (of course the mother is asian and the father is WHITE...anyone see a pattern), shaolin monk, speaking like he was castrated since birth!

Don't try to patronize me by asking me what is a "white guy"? If you are white ask yourself that. It certainly wasn't the African slaves, or chinese railroad workers who came up with the term "white majority" and everyone else "minority"

Dragonraze-

God knows we ain't never gonna see a beautiful blond playboy model travel to Japan and fall in love with Katsumoto.

If it does get portrayed in hollywood they would put some sort of spin on it......like what they do to Jet Li....

so devoted to duty he doesn't have time for love, or he is quietly shy about affection, or they would never show a passionate scene, such as James Bond banging every type of woman, except midgets, in the world.


In a way, I don't even blame them for making the movie the way they did. It is after all about generating mass appeal and big bucks in the end. I just find it depressing that THIS is what it takes for a Japanese samurai movie to generate blockbuster appeal in America.

So we should be asking these "stop fussing about nothing" people, are we as color blind as we all profess to be? Certainly our sub-concious actions say no.

[dodger87]

Originally posted by Tit Sa
And how is Last Samurai motivated by profit? As opposed to being a condescending bias movie?

How is changing the evil husband from a novel from a white guy to a chinese guy in the movie motivated by profit?

Why is Jungle Fever a controversial movie? and James Bond banging Halle Barrie normal?

Subtle manipulative racism is the norm now, since outright overt racism is against the law.

Because obviously the majority of Americans are white, no offence. But I think people like seeing their own kind up on the screen. I remember when Romeo Must Die came out so many of my relatives, and surprisingly my dad who hadn't been to a cinema for years, went because of Jet Li. I think you read things too deep Tit Sa.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Mr. Horse
There are a few reasons for that.

Japanese girls love Tom and the idea of a Japanese girl and him falling in love is good to them.

Japanese don't see racism the same as other countries


There is discrimination in Japan.

It takes a special kind of ******* like you to essentialize an entire nation based on nothing but your own **** prejudices.

You are a **** fool.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by DragonzRage
But if thats the case, why can't the film truly focus on the samurai rather than on an out of place All American idiot like Tom Cruise? As much as the film hollowly tries to portray samurai, in the end the samurai are only there as background to uplift the Tom Cruise character.

They were trying to sell tickets, not complete their college film major project.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Tit Sa




If it does get portrayed in hollywood they would put some sort of spin on it......like what they do to Jet Li....

so devoted to duty he doesn't have time for love, or he is quietly shy about affection, or they would never show a passionate scene, such as James Bond banging every type of woman, except midgets, in the world.



Hang on here. So if an Asian leading man didn't act like your expectations of a 'white' leading man, that wouldn't be legitimate? So to make you feel good enough, the Asian leading man would have to live up to your preconditions? Is that what it takes to alleviate your guilt? Or are you just so culturally prejudiced that you can't see beyond your own nose?

[neit]

don't bash tom cruise too much outside this forum k guys? people say i look like him, and i'd like to continue working that angle. even if he is a tool.

[Northernboxer]

You people completely missed the point of the film. It was supposed to be about two different cultures and Japans struggle to keep it's ancient traditions or go more western, for obvious weapon and tactical superiority. You people who keep talking about race are the problem. Why can't a westerner be a samurai? Is that term only fit for Japanese? Talent is talent. One of my favorite things about this movie was the character(Cruise) who is truly talented in all things he does. He realised something very important about the culture and embraced it(very much like today's martial artists). It almost reminded me of the film Masterkiller with Gordon Liu. To me if there was any type of discrimination it was towards the lack of honor and skill involved in modern warfare. How else could they point out what's wrong with mass anonymous killing than by introducing a westerner who is disgusted with his people's ways to this culture with a very different(and better) view on things. His character from the beginning was portayed as prophetic. Katsumoto, the head samurai had a vision about the westerner. Stop with the whole race thing.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Tit Sa
Why is Jungle Fever a controversial movie? and James Bond banging Halle Barrie normal? Jungle fever was controversial because it was about how black people react when one of their own dates outside their race. He was ostracised by black people, the same people who get up in arms when a white person is ostracised for dating outside their race. Have you even seen the movie?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Tit Sa
In the movie the white guy wasn't cheating, he just ignored her.

So, why did they need to rewrite the story from the cheating white guy into an innocently ignorant white guy? He did cheat on her in the movie. At the house, she asks him about other woman, and he says "You don't know her. Besides, this isn't about her." The affair is implied, but not visualized.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

I have to echo the sentiments earlier on in this thread and say WHAT A BUNCH OF GIRLS BLOUSES. its a MOVIE for f*cks sake, not a documentary. as for this whole racism thing, give me a break. Are you saying that Jet Li movies are racist against white people? Bulletproof monk is all about a smart chinese guy teaching a dumb white guy to bash other dumb white guys, is that racist? oh wait, its JUST A MOVIE. grow a clue, you pack of cumclowns.

[fa_jing]

Actually, the movie "Jungle Fever" had alot more going on that was controversial and complicated than a simple Black-White relationship. I was just talking to my friend about it last night. Watch it and see. Contrast that to the movie which Snipes made with Natasha Kinsijki or whatever her name is, which didn't generate as much controversy, and even involved infidelity as well. Of course Jungle Fever was prior to it, but the other movie didn't generate controversy at all...

Othello is the example you guys are looking for with the "13th warrior" thing.

Anyway I don't like Tom Cruise films and won't watch the movie, well maybe if it comes on cable.

Sounds like a "Shogun" rip-off anyway.

[DragonzRage]

"WHAT A BUNCH OF GIRLS BLOUSES. its a MOVIE for f*cks sake, not a documentary. as for this whole racism thing, give me a break. Are you saying that Jet Li movies are racist against white people? Bulletproof monk is all about a smart chinese guy teaching a dumb white guy to bash other dumb white guys, is that racist? oh wait, its JUST A MOVIE. grow a clue, you pack of cumclowns."

Kiss my a$$ you fukk. Now, to address your points...I'm glad that there are some people in Hollywood who would put Jet Li or Chow Yun Fat in leading roles. I think that Jackie Chan and Chow Yun Fat in particular are helping Hollywood take steps in the right direction in this regard. but you can bet that The Last Samurai made more money and was taken much more seriously than a hundred Bulletproof Monks and Kiss of the Dragons. Besides, I never tried to imply that every Hollywood movie out there is racist...so maybe YOU'RE the one who should grow a clue. I simply talked about The Last Samurai and pointed out the possibility that our pop culture in general is not as open minded and equal as we might want to believe.

Northernboxer,

"It was supposed to be about two different cultures and Japans struggle to keep it's ancient traditions or go more western, for obvious weapon and tactical superiority."
-As so many people have already pointed out, it was a blockbuster action movie, not a deep exploration of Japane culture and historical events. The question of Japan's westernizing is only addressed as a side note in this film. They don't portray it accurately or talk about it nearly as much as they would need to if it were the focal point of the movie. You are giving the film a helluva lot more intellectual credit than it deserves.

"Why can't a westerner be a samurai? Is that term only fit for Japanese?"
-Funny thing is that if you ask the Japanese, who invented the term 'samurai', they'd probably tell you yes. If you don't realize how nationalistic and racist Japanese culture can be, then you really don't know much about Japanese. For that matter you don't have much concept of who the samurai were either. It wasn't simply about being a sword swinging zen enlightened warrior. The samurai were a CLASS in a rigidly defined social system! Hell, not only did you have to be Japanese to be a samurai, you had to be a Japanese born into a very exclusive aristocracy. You should seek more in depth knowledge about what the samurai were all about before you draw too many conclusions based on movies.

You can badly interpret the movie in as many ways as you want. And I suppose I can as well. But you can't argue with these facts:
1) You don't need a white superhero character in order to tell a story that's supposedly about samurai and Japan's cultural transition during the Meiji era.
2) Tom Cruise is the only "samurai" that doesn't get wasted at the end.
3) beautiful Japanese women and their cute kids will not fall in love with you after you kill their husband/father, regardless of what race you are.
In light of all this, there is plenty of reason to see a culturally condescending side to the movie. You all can respectfully disagree if you see things differently, but do me a favor and do away with the sarcastic indignance and stupid remarks.

[Tit Sa]

unkokusai-

Hang on here. So if an Asian leading man didn't act like your expectations of a 'white' leading man, that wouldn't be legitimate? So to make you feel good enough, the Asian leading man would have to live up to your preconditions? Is that what it takes to alleviate your guilt? Or are you just so culturally prejudiced that you can't see beyond your own nose?

The real question is-

If a leading asian man didn't act like "white America's" expectations, that wuoldn't be legitimate? So to make you feel good enough the leading asian man would have to live up to your preconditions? Is that what it takes to alleviate your hippocracy and self righteousness? Or are you so culturally prejudiced that you can't see beyond your own insulting ignorance?

Masterkiller-

Oh, Jungle fever is controversial because each side didn't accept the other dating outside of their ethnicity?

Much like the all time great musical/classic love story, called West Side Story? with the white guy and the hispanic girl?


He did cheat on her in the movie. At the house, she asks him about other woman, and he says "You don't know her. Besides, this isn't about her." The affair is implied, but not visualized.

Wow, you know I seen it 3X (years ago)and if you didn't tell me I would have missed it. I guess they didn't want to caste/imply the 'white boy" in too bad of a light.

Unlike the dashing, handsome, EVIL CHEATING, Russel Wong. They certainly illustrated that part of the book very well.

Ikken Hisatsu-


Are you saying that Jet Li movies are racist against white people? Bulletproof monk is all about a smart chinese guy teaching a dumb white guy to bash other dumb white guys, is that racist? oh wait, its JUST A MOVIE. grow a clue, you pack of cumclowns.

You typify the innocently ignorant/arrogant people that says "see how can it be biased, an asian actor plays a major character" On the contrary Jet Li movies are bias against asians. Why? because so far all his roles in American made movies caste him into the stereotype of the duty bound asian male who doesn't have time for love. Which I mention before.

Shanghai Noon is another one that plays on stereotypes. Here we have the asexual goofy guy. He is so asexual that when a hot white hooker comes to his room, instead of bangin her, like what normal guys would do, he does chiropractic on her!

On the other hand we have Owen Wilson's character who is essentially a two bit punk, winning the affection of a beautiful member of the Imperial House of China! His scenes are loaded with passionate innuendos.

Jackie a member of the Royal class of China, can't even get laid by a cheap hooker!; Wilson a lowly swindler winning the affection of Royalty! People still don't see the pattern?

Although Jackie has been playing the goof all throughout, he certainly is the most popular of all the asian males, why? Is it because he fits into what "the perception" should be? thereby making him more acceptable? What about the asexual duty bound Jet Li? Why isn't Russel Wong bigger than them? because he doesn't look or caste himself into the stereotypes? Don't tell me it's acting skills because Russel Wong is a way better actor than Jet.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Tit Sa
Well if it is, he certainly didn't kill a Viking and have his "grief stricken" widow fall in love with him later.

You're right. It wasn't the same movie in every sense; only in the sense you were commenting on.


Nor was he portrayed as superior to the Nordic Warriors

Yes he was. They made a deal over his superior horse and horsemanship, literacy, sword making, and intellect.


As for Replacement Killers, sorry didn't see it. Therefore cannot rebutte or concede.

Replacement Killers is hardly a fringe movie, nor a cultural anomaly. It's difficult to imagine that you sincerely believe that both a) every movie every made is a rehash of the same stereotypes, and b) every stereotype directly or indirectly implies white superiority (again here I will note incredulity over the meaningfullness of 'white' in this sense). This whole idea of "whites" being the sole origin of all prejudice is itself an explicit and repulsive example of bigotry.

[Tit Sa]

Christopher M-


You're right. It wasn't the same movie in every sense; only in the sense you were commenting on

Thanks for admitting The Last Samurai is not the same as the 13 the Warrior. Are you trying to clarify my own words and thoughts to me? If so, please stop, I think you will be wrong.


Yes he was. They made a deal over his superior horse and horsemanship, literacy, sword making, and intellect.

Ok, I stand corrected.

It's difficult to imagine that a) you cannot see the stereotypes I mention in my previous post b) that the stereotypes I mention does imply white superiority. The whole idea that whites are innocent of stereotyping ethnicity in entertainment industry even though the majority of producers, writers, lead actors, owners, CEO's, directors of the big movie houses are white, is itself an explicit and repulsive example of ignorance, self righteousness, and the subtle racism that continues to go on.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Tit Sa
unkokusai-


The real question is-

If a leading asian man didn't act like "white America's" expectations, that wuoldn't be legitimate? So to make you feel good enough the leading asian man would have to live up to your preconditions? Is that what it takes to alleviate your hippocracy and self righteousness? Or are you so culturally prejudiced that you can't see beyond your own insulting ignorance?



You set the conditions moron, not me. I responded to your words. You then imagined some words for me and responded to them. That seem reasonable to you?

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Tit Sa



Wow, you know I seen it 3X (years ago)and if you didn't tell me I would have missed it. I guess they didn't want to caste/imply the 'white boy" in too bad of a light.

Unlike the dashing, handsome, EVIL CHEATING, Russel Wong. They certainly illustrated that part of the book very well.



It is comical how desperate you are to read an agenda into these things. There is plenty of real dicrimination out there without your empty-headed conspiracy mongering.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Tit Sa


Shanghai Noon is another one that plays on stereotypes. Here we have the asexual goofy guy. He is so asexual that when a hot white hooker comes to his room, instead of bangin her, like what normal guys would do, he does chiropractic on her!


Although Jackie has been playing the goof all throughout, he certainly is the most popular of all the asian males, why? Is it because he fits into what "the perception" should be? thereby making him more acceptable?

You are an idiot.

In that movie He gets not one, but two beautiful women and he's not 'sexual' enough for you? Maybe if he beat down all the white guys with a giant phallus you would be satisfied...

For goodness sake, the very first American production that he starred in had him bedding down a blond hottie. Your imagined issues are an offense in light of the very real problems in the world. In short: Shut the **** up you stupid *******.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Tit Sa
Are you trying to clarify my own words and thoughts to me? If so, please stop, I think you will be wrong.

Well: you made a remark regarding racial leading roles, to which I gave a counter-example. You criticized that counter-example on points having nothing to do with the issue of racial leading roles.


It's difficult to imagine that a) you cannot see the stereotypes I mention in my previous post

I'm glad it's difficult to imagine, since it's not true. There are plenty of stereotypes in media. That doesn't mean every piece of media is stereotypical.


b) that the stereotypes I mention does imply white superiority.

Of course there's stereotypes of white superiority. Looking closer, there's stereotypes of saxon superiority over celt superiority sometimes; and sometimes vice-versa. Looking more broadly, there's sometimes stereotypes of non-white superiority. The existence of the former doesn't invalidate the existence of the latter. Over-generalizing by focosing on the small sample of a population which offends you is, of course, a major source of bigotry; so surely should be avoided in discussions criticizing the same.


The whole idea that whites are innocent of stereotyping ethnicity

I didn't say that, did I? I said they're not the only ones. Again - isn't this kind of straw manning another primary source of bigotry?

[Tit Sa]

unkokusai-

You set the conditions moron, not me. I responded to your words. You then imagined some words for me and responded to them. That seem reasonable to you?

Conditions were set up by dumb inbred crackers like you who have yellow fever. In fact go and read some of the comments made by other crackers like urself, as to why The Last Samurai is Tom Cruise and not someone with a Yama or Moto last name.


It is comical how desperate you are to read an agenda into these things. There is plenty of real dicrimination out there without your empty-headed conspiracy mongering.

Does it offend your "holy than thou" self righteous attitude that a movie like The Last Samurai, are offensive to many asians? Real decrimination? ha...it is only real when descrimination is described by empty headed inbreds like urself, who think you are paying homage to asian culture by such movies? I rather have you put the white sheets back on head and try to lynch me.


In that movie He gets not one, but two beautiful women and he's not 'sexual' enough for you? ...

Yeah...right...he holds two girls in each hand, meanwhile Pierce Brosnan,ie Bond, is shown on screen bangin everyone including your mother on screen.


Maybe if he beat down all the white guys with a giant phallus you would be satisfied

Yup, and he can start with you.

Chris M-

Re-read, if you think everything I said about the Last Samurai are similar to events in the 13th warrior.


I'm glad it's difficult to imagine, since it's not true. There are plenty of stereotypes in media. That doesn't mean every piece of media is stereotypical.

Did I say every bit of media is stereotypical?


Of course there's stereotypes of white superiority. Looking closer, there's stereotypes of saxon superiority over celt superiority sometimes; and sometimes vice-versa. Looking more broadly, there's sometimes stereotypes of non-white superiority. The existence of the former doesn't invalidate the existence of the latter. Over-generalizing by focosing on the small sample of a population which offends you is, of course, a major source of bigotry; so surely should be avoided in discussions criticizing the same.

Iam not interested in how you "white boys" further divide and descriminate against each other.


didn't say that, did I? I said they're not the only ones. Again - isn't this kind of straw manning another primary source of bigotry?

Sure you are not the only ones, but, I can add 1+1, and "white guys" are in a position of power in the entertainment industry.

I give you examples of how certain films are offensive, and I get countered by being called a bigot...you will never find anything offensive since it is not about you.

[Judge Pen]

Isn't there a difference between racism and cultural bias based upon Hollywood marketing?

And before you label me another dumb cracker know that my interpretation of the movie is that Ken Wanatabe's character is the last samurai and I think that the movie would have been more approriate if his character would have died.

And why is it bad that a character like Bond is apparently color blind in his relations? Sexual promiscuity aside, shouldn't we all strive to be color blind in our relations?

I just think this topic has gotten blown way out of proportion.

[Ford Prefect]

lol @ you bickering women.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Tit Sa
Re-read, if you think everything I said about the Last Samurai are similar to events in the 13th warrior.

You're missing the point. The other distinctions are moot. The protagonist rides different color horses in each movie - this is indeed a difference, but it doesn't violate the similarity in question: regarding the racial role of the protagonist compared to the secondary characters.


Did I say every bit of media is stereotypical?

Your thesis certainly hangs on this point: your argument was: "Of course it is nothing to you, it wasn't a Japanese Samurai or Arabic warrior who went to Europe and became the Last Knight." And you have tried to defend this position by claiming such a thing has never occurred (despite the counter-examples given).


Iam not interested in how you "white boys" further divide and descriminate against each other.

You can't defend the idea of there being only one kind of racism that matters by simply disregarding all the other kinds. If I say all apples are green, I'm not made correct by adding "Yeah, I don't care about the red ones."

And, by analogy: if I was trying to argue that there's no racist attitudes about orientals, it would probably serve my case very poorly to remark, "Yeah, I don't care about how you yellow boys divide yourselves." Don't you think?


you will never find anything offensive since it is not about you.

This is clearly false - since I've acknowledged all along the full gamut of bigoted attitudes. On the other hand, you explicitly stated above that you're not interested in things that offend other ethnic groups - so it seems to be true about you.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Tit Sa
unkokusai-


Conditions were set up by dumb inbred crackers like you who have yellow fever. In fact go and read some of the comments made by other crackers like urself, .

I guess we finally found that racism you were looking for!

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Tit Sa

Does it offend your "holy than thou" self righteous attitude that a movie like The Last Samurai, are offensive to many asians?

So many? You are the first creature of any race I've heard such lamentations from. Whatever you may be.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Tit Sa

Yeah...right...he holds two girls in each hand, meanwhile Pierce Brosnan,ie Bond, is shown on screen bangin everyone

Oh, I see. Not enough sweaty bumpin' for ya? You are a pervert as well as a racist.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Tit Sa
who think you are paying homage to asian culture by such movies? I rather have you put the white sheets back on head and try to lynch me.



Not sure why I'd want to do that, even as hard as you are working to make the case for it. And I don't know where you got the notion that I was involved in the production of this motion picture, but you are mistaken.

[rubthebuddha]

this thread has a good deal of potential. however, if one more person insults another forum user or race on this thread, i'll nicely ask the admin to press the big, red ban button. grow up, state your points, argue them, then repeat.

it's a bad day when red5 is chastising people on their social skills and ford takes the time to call you all out. :rolleyes:

now down to business:

anyone stating that this movie is nothing more than a movie is correct, and that people SHOULD take it as nothing more than a movie.

anyone stating that this movie has some sort of responsibility as many viewers is probably right, also. the majority of its viewers probably have little idea about japanese culture at that time, so being true to history is important. in addition, it adds a level of authenticity that purists just crave. so, to silence historical nerds who know better, do your homework.

[Tit Sa]

Judge-
Nothing wrong with Bond being color blind, I just wish an asian leading character can be as passionate, and loving as he. It is as though asian males are devoid and incapable of such emotions.

Chris M-


You're missing the point. The other distinctions are moot. The protagonist rides different color horses in each movie - this is indeed a difference, but it doesn't violate the similarity in question: regarding the racial role of the protagonist compared to the secondary characters.Your thesis certainly hangs on this point: your argument was: "Of course it is nothing to you, it wasn't a Japanese Samurai or Arabic warrior who went to Europe and became the Last Knight." And you have tried to defend this position by claiming such a thing has never occurred (despite the counter-examples given).


My thesis does not just hang on this ONE point, re-read my post. On the contrary the other distinctions are not moot. Certainly not in my opinion, nor does it seem like the opinion of others who think the same of this movie. Rather the whole gamut of events that takes place is my point. Which you seem to try and convienently say it is "moot" to.


You can't defend the idea of there being only one kind of racism that matters by simply disregarding all the other kinds. If I say all apples are green, I'm not made correct by adding "Yeah, I don't care about the red ones."

And you can't deny and downplay that racism against asians exits because there are other forms, they exits, and are all wrong.

Iam interested in bigotry agaisnt asian. Because we as a group are usually not outspoken on such issues. Blacks are interested in bias agaisnt them, and they have certainly done a better job at it than us.

Judging from this thread, it is hard enough for me to explain the stereotypes asian males are in a majority of the time caste in, without having to worry about what goes on between the saxons, celts, germans, irish...etc. If you are saxon and feel the need to speak out against some descriminating issue, go right ahead, don't expect me to do it for you. And it certainly doesn't make moot how asians are stereotyped.

And in a majority of the time, certainly over 50%, if one of the lead roles is asian it would be caste as I described before.

ukokusai-

I guess we finally found that racism you were looking for
Do on to others as others have done on to you. Code of Hammurabi, eye for an eye.


So many? You are the first creature of any race I've heard such lamentations from. Whatever you may be.

If you go back and re-read, their are quite a number of people on this thread alone who feels the same way about this movie as I do. I just happen to be the most outspoken and undiplomatic about it. You confirm my previous description about you being ignorant.


Oh, I see. Not enough sweaty bumpin' for ya? You are a pervert as well as a racist.

I am as much a pervert as the James Bond character is, but I know that he is not described in such a light. On the contrary he is described as dashingly cool and masculine.


Not sure why I'd want to do that, even as hard as you are working to make the case for it. And I don't know where you got the notion that I was involved in the production of this motion picture, but you are mistaken

Thank god you do not have a part in the film industry. I could imagine the silly tripe that would come out of your head make David Carradine's Kung fu a training film for understanding chinese culture.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Tit Sa

Nothing wrong with Bond being color blind, I just wish an asian leading character can be as passionate, and loving as he. It is as though asian males are devoid and incapable of such emotions.



I see a pattern here. You make a ridiculous claim, it is refuted by facts, you ignore those facts and repeat said claim. Very logical.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Tit Sa

Iam interested in bigotry



Because you are such a prolific purveyor of same.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Tit Sa


Do on to others as others have done on to you. Code of Hammurabi, eye for an eye.
.

So you admit you are a racist?

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Tit Sa


Thank god you do not have a part in the film industry. I could imagine the silly tripe that would come out of your head make David Carradine's Kung fu a training film for understanding chinese culture.

There goes that adorable imagination again!