If it looks like a duck.....

[red5angel]

A subject has come up a few times over the last couple of days for me, and I just noticed the same thing in the footwork thread so I thought I start a new one to free that one up.

As it applies to martial arts - Does someone need to be from an arts culture to assure the purest form of that art? Does someone from say china, have a leg up on someone who is not, in learning or teaching kungfu?

A year ago or so I had an asian guy say something like this to me "I should take up martial arts, I'd probably be good at it." I figured he had taken some before or maybe was just naturally athletic but I figured I'd ask him why he thought that and he said "Because I'm asian, it's just in my blood." He's vietnamese by the way. I told him I thought that was a ridiculous statement because asia didn't have the market on the martial arts, and as far as I knew, martial arts wasn't a genetic trait that was passed on, although athleticism and other traits that could help, are.

EarthDragon came out in the footwork thread and basically said that an instructor should know everything he can about the language used in the art (proper chinese names of movements, forms, etc..) the culture and history. and he basically stated that somehow, being asian gives one an advantage when teaching kungfu or something to that effect. What do you guys and gals think?

[Midnight]

This is a very tricky topic, on quite a few levels. Unfortunately the commercialization of culture is where the problem lies.


A friend of mine told me one day, that he decided not to continue going to martial arts class after his second attendance there. I asked him why. His responce was, 'because my instructor is white'.

I was perplxed, so I said, 'But you're white'.

He said 'I know, but I want to be taught by an asian master. Maybe even one day I'll become a master'.

'Do you think you'd make a good master?'

'Yes' he said.

'Would you expect to receive more respect from your students than you are providing this particular teacher?' I asked.

....silence.


Heritage and tradition are a remarkable thing to learn if you wish to devote the time. But to think that your teacher is better based on skin color....is a fantasy based on movies.

[Ray Pina]

I think I've beaten plenty of Japanese kids when I studied karate and beat plenty of Chinese guys I know who study Wing Chun.

Learning the culture is great, just to know about the place your beloved art comes from. I love Asian philosophy, particularly Taosim.

But when it comes to fighting, I actually think Westerners have a general size/weight advantage over our Asian counterparts. In the end, it depends on how good YOU are, that's it.

In related news, I've felt vibes in my old school by a few Asian students of the, "Where does he get off" sort. Never meant much to me. I'm go to learn and don't care what anyone but the teacher thinks. Of course, a friendly environment is always a nice bonus.

[No_Know]

Turn the light on, does not mean flirt with the light fixtures.

See if I can turn her on, does not mean find the knob or switch on the woman an flick it.

Within a language all things~ are not literal. So (needle-and-thread), when instructing from one language to another, if idioms can be included...Knowing nuances of a language or culture might give an edge to understanding.

One might think.

[EarthDragon]

redangel,
Yes I am a tradtionalist becuse I have been fortunate to learn from 2 chinese masters, most people dont have that opportunity so they say it's not important but it is to me.

however, I didnt say that becuase you dont know the chinese terms your kung fu cant be good, but to get a grasp on the entire completeness of CMA when you spend the better part of your life learning and training in them you should at some level learn the history, language and culture to keep it from becomming too americanized.
This is the problem that has been the downfall of tradtion, and defending it becuse you are justifying not knowing it in its entirety it quite a problem.

Most teachers never take the time to learn, and then pass the info off to thier students losing its authenticity, then these same students argue that it's not important to know simply to justifying thier ignorance.
It's like saying we dont have weapons in our system. no you do it's just your teacher was too lazy to learn them. So the student says their not important, I'll never use a sword or stick in a fight why bother? doenst mean my hand combat isnt good. that not the point do you understand?

Why do you call your teacher sifu? why not bill? Why learn the history of your system then? and its founder ? and the year? want to know why? becuase this is all relevant to knowing a complete system of kung fu. not just some made up crap taught at the YMCA. I take pride in knowing everything I can about my system and am always eager to learn more.

That's why originally old masters didnt want the heritage and arts to be taught to americans.

If I EVER went into a chinese resturant and saw mexicans cooking the food I would run!!!!!!!! and yes that makes chinese food not chinese but chinacan. So that is not a dumb reason AT ALL!


__________________

[GeneChing]

This is always a tricky one in CMA. I do firmly beleive that CMA embraces more than just fighting arts - like anything Chinese, it contains Chinese culture as well - and that's huge - HUGE. You can gut it and still have Chinese roots, like a lot of the Sanshou fighters do today in the West, but I feel that you lose out one so much that way. That being said, obviously someone from Chinese culture will have a better purchase on the arts. However, culture is learned, not inherited. I know plenty of non-Chinese who know plenty more about Chinese culture than I do (being Chinese). At the same time, I know many Chinese who don't know diddly about their culture. So don't let the slant eyes fool you (man, I can't beleive I just wrote that)

If it's all about what's in the blood, my retort is HAPA NATION RISING!!!

[Ray Pina]

My master is Chinese and most of my classmates are Chinese.

Sometimes my master says something in Chinese to get a point across because there's not a similiar translation in english and the students try to translate.

But in the end, he just executes what were talking about on me and I understand right away.

He says his English is not that great but I understand everything he says .... maybe my ear has adopted to it. But this is martial arts, with a little experience I'd rather learn by touch than mouth anyday.

I've had teachers in the past that never touch hands with you and everything is talk and seniors will show you .... and they were American.

My Chinese master is the most down-to-Earth teacher I've ever had. At 60-something years old he'll still go down on the floor and lets you mount him and insist that you try to submit him at full power.

[intimidation]

This guy is really good. He's lineage holder in multiple arts, and not chinese

http://members.shaw.ca/wuti/tuttle.html

[red5angel]

Yes I am a tradtionalist becuse I have been fortunate to learn from 2 chinese masters, most people dont have that opportunity so they say it's not important but it is to me.

I disagree and I find that highly egotystical of you to imply that because some of us don't get to train with CHINESE masters that we hold some sort of resentment or jealousy. I've got to learn from a master, period and it wouldn't have mattered whether he were chinese or not.


to keep it from becomming too americanized.

That doesn't make any sense. So what if it becomes americanized, all things change, and a kungfu being chinese doesn't make it any more legite, no matter what language you are teaching it in.


Most teachers never take the time to learn, and then pass the info off to thier students losing its authenticity, then these same students argue that it's not important to know simply to justifying thier ignorance.

again, an extremely ignorant and egotistical way of looking at things. I personally don't think it matters what freakin language it is in. Giving the chinese names for things in the art doesn't give it any more authenticity, it's if you can take it out on the street and use it to do what it is supposed to do that provides it with authenticity.



I take pride
Obviously, a little too seriously I think.


That's why originally old masters didnt want the heritage and arts to be taught to americans.


No, if you knew your kungfu history you'd know that the chinese have always been xenophobic and often were very secretive, even amongst their own people, about their arts. "American" was just a nother group of people to be paranoid about.

I can't believe I'm gearing this, and you teach even. Are you white? Do you have White Students?


If I EVER went into a chinese resturant and saw mexicans cooking the food I would run!!!!!!!! and yes that makes chinese food not chinese but chinacan. So that is not a dumb reason AT ALL!

Wow, that's real ignorant of you there earth dragon. Really, because someone isn't chinese, cook chinese, it suddenly and magically is no longer chinese food?

I don't know what to say, I'm shocked and horrified to be quite honest. that level of ignorance I beleved was sort of fading out of the community, but I guess there are some out there trying to keep the dream alive.

[Vash]

E_D

Do you have to practice to get your head so far up your ass, or does that kinda [in]flexibility come naturally?

[MasterKiller]

I have an American Sifu. I have a Chinese Sifu. The American guy uses English terms because he's American. The Chinese guy uses Chinese terms because he's Chinese.

My Sigung is Korean and he uses Korean terms for everything, even though his teacher was Chinese.

Chinese olympic boxers don't learn English and Western customs to box. Why should we have to learn Chinese terms to use kung fu?

I like tradition. And I like Chinese martial history. It certainly adds flavor to the training. But it's not necessary.

You don't want your kung fu Americanized? Too late. You learned it in America.

[red5angel]

Don't get me wrong, I always try to look at chinese culture, it's fascinating to me, and I think there can be some things gleaned from the study but I don't think it's necessary and I certainly don't think being asian makes kungfu more authentic!

[Midnight]

I think I'll take McDonalds to court. For each and every employee they have, not a westerner and making burgers.

And the fries....so help me god, there had better be english people making those fries!

[Fu-Pow]

My take on it:

I have two teachers, my Taiji teacher is caucasian and fluent in Mandarin. My
Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu teacher is Chinese. I have also had a caucasian Hung Gar/CLF teacher who knew very little Chinese language, but knew a lot about the culture. .

All of my teachers are/have been great. However, I would argue that knowing the Chinese language is going to help you immensely and prevent a lot of confusion that is caused by translation. If you are serious about being a "Sifu" and not just a student you must take the time to learn the language and culture.

When you learn the Chinese language it is goes hand in hand that you also learn Chinese culture, philosophy and traditions. The literal translation of Chinese is unintelligible unless you have a basic understanding of these things....they are that ingrained.

Furthermore, when you understand the language and the cultural context, you can get a deeper understanding of what a technique is all about.

An example, in Taiji they talk about the "mind" or "yi." And they talk about the "yi" leading the "chi." Well did you know that the Chinese consider the the "mind" or "yi" to reside in the area of the heart? They're not talking about the brain at all! So practitioners that did not make this distinction would think that they are supposed to be leading the chi around with their brain. When in fact it is the area near the heart that is the "governor" of chi.

You see how things get easily get lost or misconstrued in translation.

Learning the language and culture will deepen your understanding but it is no substitute for sweat.

So you also see Chinese dudes that know everything to know about a particular art, could talk for days about theory and take pride in the fact that they are a Chinese guy, teaching a Chinese art, using Chinese terms and principles of Chinese philosophy.

And at the end of the day they can't fight they're way out of a wet paper bag and have to rely on bull**** like Lin Kong Jing (empty force) and bull**** parlor tricks.

Compare that to a white guy that worked hard with Sifu and can APPLY what he knows and can't speak a lick of Chinese.

So my point is that understanding Chinese language and culture can be an invaluable part of your deepening your understanding. But it is no substitute for hard work and effort.

I would approach every teacher skeptically and as an individual. Take some time to evaluate their skill and teaching ability and understanding of their art. It's not gonna benefit you to prejudge them based on the color of their skin or their native language and culture.

The best teacher, of course, is going to be the one with fighting skills and that can deepen your understanding on many levels, including cultural.

Peace. :p

[EarthDragon]

redangel,
people are entitled to thier opinon. And yours is simply yours That's why you always diagree with what people say and think.

You seem to belive that your opionon is the only one. and always play the devils advocate, that fine but what you think I think just the opposite.
But because you dont agree dont call me ignorant and egotistical. You dont have to put others down to get your own point across no matter how wrong it may be.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I am a tradtionalist becuse I have been fortunate to learn from 2 chinese masters, most people dont have that opportunity so they say it's not important but it is to me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

then you said.............
I disagree and I find that highly egotystical of you to imply that because some of us don't get to train with CHINESE masters that we hold some sort of resentment or jealousy. I've got to learn from a master, period and it wouldn't have mattered whether he were chinese or not.

Re- read my quote above and pay attention to the words fortunate, and but to me it is!
again you are saying becuse you dont agree and to me its important that's egotistical? your full of B.S

I think you need to spend a little more timne training and less time being a pain on the internet.

[EarthDragon]

Fu Pow,
finally someone that agree's with my thinking. The main forum board is the only one that I respond to that this issue comes up.

I dont know if its becuse so many people on here are just part time matial artists or are not that serious about thier art. I've read threads that in the middle they compare it to video games$#@^ whatever the case maybe, bring this subject up on the northen mantis board and watch it get shot down and moved in 1 day. this still amazes me.

[EarthDragon]

I can only teach how and what I've been taught.
Who am I to say OK for 350 years it's done like this but because I'm american I am going to change the names of every technique to better suit my language? NO NO NO this is the problem that kung fu is up against and the more Mcdojo's out there changing things the more is lost!
problem is most people that are not agreeing with me are training at these very Mcdojo's so they defend and support these very actions.

[red5angel]

But because you dont agree dont call me ignorant and egotistical.


I'm not calling you ignorant or egotistical because you disagree with me, I'm calling you ignorant and egotistical because of the ignorant and egotistical things you said in your post.

You imply that because "most" people don't get the chance to train with authentic chinese masters that somehow they try to write it off as not being important. It's egotistical to think that somehow your in an enviable position because your masters were chinese. It's also ignorant. I don't care what color your skin is, or what nation you were born in, if you can teach me to fight and can give me what I want. Period, end of story. I fyou trained with chinese masters then great, but the word CHINESE does not hold any inherent sense of value to me when it comes to training. I've met non-chinese masters and white masters in other traditionally non white cultures arts that could kick ass all over the few chinese masters I have seen.
I've also met a few chinese who claim to masters who couldn't beat their way out of that proverbial bag, so apparently being CHINESE isn't a guarentee that you know what your talking about, can use it effectively and owuld make the best of the best of fighters out of me.

As for being a pain on the internet, if being a pain is calling your bull**** and all the other crap that comes through this board from time to time then expect it from me. I think your ignorant view on what quality training is and how to get it is BS. you make a lot of fukked up assumptions about people and now it's starting to become clear where that comes from. You haven't had the privelage of learning under a non-chinese master and so have to claim that chinese is the only way to go. I can understand that. I 've been blessed enough to meet masters of all sorts of different races and so can free my mind of that ignorant attitude and realise that no matter what you call a punch, it's still a punch.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The only differences are in our individual perceptions..

I know a Latino that is a lead chef in a Chinese resturant, and she is idolized by the owner AND the patrons, the soul is the source, not the ethnicity.. Like EvolutionFist, i have a keen interest in philosophical Taoism, i have visited and studied at Taoist temples and monastaries, and one thing i notice about Taoists is their aversion to stereotypes.. certainly, there are nuances of culture that escape translation, but.. the concepts and the martial arts are not exclusive to the culture, the cross-culture exchange is limited only by the participants desire to complete the communication..

Each confining principle we accept or acknowledge further empowers that separation.. I spent over a decade training with G'Master Chan Pui whose english language skills are (respectfully) comical.. but, the man taught mostly by silent example and did a great job of it.. As an american (round-eye) i don't have the cultural background to appreciate many of the nuances of language, but.. i can easily understand the concepts they are referring to.. I don't use too much Chinese in my class, eventhough i have learned enough to get by in the areas that concern me.. i figure that if i intend to teach Americans the easiest way is to present Chinese concepts in a format familiar to the student is in their native language.. Traditional virtues can be equally expressed and learned through any culture, various jings can be explained in a context easily understood by just about any language..

To deny one culture's wisdom to another due to stereotyping is inexcuseable.. it simply takes more effort, and if the lessons are worth it, who cares..

Be well..

[red5angel]

sheeze you just can't stop with spouting the ignorance can you?


NO NO NO this is the problem that kung fu is up against and the more Mcdojo's out there changing things the more is lost!

LOL! BEcause someone out there isn't calling a technique by it's chinese name something is lost? I got a wake up call for you dumb a$$, you're not learning a language, your learning a martial art. A kick is still a kick and a punch is still a punch. Fu Pows might at first seem logical, but what does it matter where the chinese think the mind is?! You both know where and what the fist is and I can show you how to apply it without ever saying a word. That doesn't need the proper language to explain, it doesn't need mountains of what some people find to be useless and boring philisophical BS either. The reason kungfu is dying is because of guys like you who think only the chinese can teach kungfu. What the fukk are you doing teaching it?! Your not chinese! According to you way of viewing things your part of the problem! how doe sthat work?! Oh wait, I forgot your learning from real chinese guys! :eek:
That's whats killing kungfu, guys like you spreading this BS around, diluting your teachings with mystical BS designed to pull in rent payers and not real fighters. Mumble a few chinese words and you got PJ wearing hippies hooked dontcha? Meanwhile all the guys with real fighting spirit are moving to MMA, Muy Thai, BJJ and all the other stuff because those guys teaching those arts don't mind using american terms and leaving all the mystical bull for the home or the patchouli smelling candle burning new age book shops!Your hat's killing kungfu because you can't get past the old school chinese xenophobia to free your mind a littl ebit to realise it's not just about chinese culture and you don't have to know anything about the culture to learn how to fight the chinese way. Instead your out there telling people that if they don't know the chinese language they can't be studying the real stuff an it's just watered down american BS. Way to go there ED, convince everyone else that you can't learn the art if you don't know the language and the customs, and watch them all walk away.
Thos Mcdojos your railing on about aren't killing these arts, they got tons of people walking through their doors everyday, day in and day out. It might not be what you recognize it as such, but they aren't stuffed in some inner city sh!thole of a building cause they got 10 guys who are learig from them occasionally, cause everyone else has been convinced that instead of learning to fight, they should dress like chinese, talk like chinese and act like chinese.
In another few decades kungfu will truly be dead, all the great kungfu fighters already are, dying off by the droves cause they're seeing all this hippy xenophibic crap taking over and in their hearts they really know what it takes to fight, a will to achieve and a will to overcome. Guys like me can only hope that people like you will eventually see the poison your spreading around with the pretense of keeping things "authentic" and will come around to not alowing yourselves to take 10 steps backwards and take a few stesp forwards.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
problem is most people that are not agreeing with me are training at these very Mcdojo's so they defend and support these very actions. You trying to point the finger at anyone in particular?

[red5angel]

halelujah taichibob, I think for once you and I are in total agreement!

[EarthDragon]

redangel,
you said................... but the word CHINESE does not hold any inherent sense of value to me when it comes to training!

TRAINING IN WHAT ? CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS! see what I mean? understand my point, you are learning chinese martial arts, so its respect should at least be noticed, treasured and perserved.

speak to a japanese sensei about tradtion, they have a tea ceremony for drinking tea. can you just drink tea in america without the ceremony. of course, does it make the tea not taste as good? of course not however if you are studing with a japanese teacher and he teaches you the way it's been passed down for 1000's of years is it OK for YOU to change it? NO NO NO the more you understand the more you will see.

master killer,
NO I would never say anything directly to someone intentionally unless they asked for it. If it applies to them then they think it was directed adn a persona vendatta but that is not my intention.
I am just a firm believer in keeping the old ways fluent. I have read about entire systems dying from not keeping lineages true to thier nature and dont want it to happend to mine. I dont think it ever will for anyone that learns 8 step mantis is taught the same values and respect for the art.

[Vash]

EarthDragon;

Still waiting to hear how you managed to get so much of your upper body lodged in your colon.

[EarthDragon]

vash , why bother to respond to your statement? grow up

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
I am just a firm believer in keeping the old ways fluent. I have read about entire systems dying from not keeping lineages true to thier nature and dont want it to happend to mine. I dont think it ever will for anyone that learns 8 step mantis is taught the same values and respect for the art. I can understand that. But weren't you removed from your system by your instructors? Did you inherit everything in that system before your removal?

[Vash]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
speak to a japanese sensei about tradtion, they have a tea ceremony for drinking tea. can you just drink tea in america without the ceremony. of course, does it make the tea not taste as good? of course not however if you are studing with a japanese teacher and he teaches you the way it's been passed down for 1000's of years is it OK for YOU to change it? NO NO NO the more you understand the more you will see

First, what does this have to do with the conversation?

Second, there is no need for that ceremony to change. It is a tradition of the culture, based upon cultural beliefs. It ain't about keeping some dude from kicking your ass and taking your ****. If one learns this ceremony, then one would be practicing a part of the culture. It is different when studying a martial art. Then, things can be changed, both in technique and in lexicon.

Is it easier for me to understand "seiken oi tsuki" or "lead punch?" Well, I'd hazard a guess and say "lead friggin' punch." The technique itself looses none of it's efficacy, I still learn the proper body mechanics, and I can apply the technique, all without being able to do anything more than butcher the language of the founder of the style.

me, I do Okinawan karate. I love it. The language is very beautiful to hear, the culture is interesting (and different from the Japanese culture, for a bit of trivial information). Does that mean that, by taking an art developed in this island nation, and keeping the physical principles intact, but instructing in my native tongue (which is American English, if you'd yet to figure out), am I no longer practicing an Okinawan art? Nope. Still Okinawan. Just I don't sound like a ******* butchering every syllable of the language.

Food for thought: Why did the Chinese instructors teach in the Chinese language, using the Chinese culture/dress, etc? I'm guessing it's because they were themselves Chinese. But, what do I know, I'm just using logic, and that never got anyone anywhere.

[Vash]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
vash , why bother to respond to your statement?

A hearty ;) and a :rolleyes: to you.


grow up

I don't plan on it.

[red5angel]

the point is that I can learn the japanese art without the tea ceremony and my understanding of the art and my ability to use it is not affected. Tradition is not necessary for an art to survive or for one to practice that art effectively, to think any different is fooling your self and calcifying the arts ability to adapt and sruvive and we all know what happens when you cannot adapt.

It's like saying you can't learn chinese kungfu unless you wear the kungfu uniforms you see some people wearing - http://store.martialartsmart.net/chinese-martial-arts-uniforms.html

Those things don't make it kungfu, those outfits were peasant outfits for the most part and stylized everyday dress. Most chinese didn't dress for the "gym" they wore whatever they happened to wear that day to class. Does that mean we still need to wear those outfits to be doing authentic chinese martial arts?!

[intimidation]

Perhaps knowing something about a culture can help you see through it, and see what principles are universal. I mean too much knowledge can possibly be a hindrance too though, just like not enough . You have to know about something, to know if it is useful or not. I do think there is something to the starement that people sometimes feel attacked by statements not directed at them, because they do in fact know it applies to themselves.

[brothernumber9]

just an observation concerning communication between EarthDragon, Red5angel, and Vash.

It would seem that words may have been exchanged on other posts between you guys in the past ( I'm just speculating ). However, from just reading this thread, EarthDragon has been personally attacked, verbally that is.

He could have easily gotten defensive and puffed up his chest and been spiteful in reaction. Instead he more or less just tries to make his argument with little retort in the same manner from which he is attacked.

Red5angel, you have strong convictions on this matter of chinese, non chinese teachers. What was it that got your fire going to the point where you took real offense (or so it seemed)? You first claimed EarthDragon's first line in his response implied something that some may not see implied.

some of your statements make valid arguments against EarthDragon's statements, but on others you imply an implication and assume what that implication was. My point is I think what you assumed EarthDragon's implication about jealousy and envy was wrong. And if I am right in my assumption then perhaps this can be used of an example of how the point got lost in transmission (one of the points I think Earthdragon was trying to make about "americanization" of traditional arts).

But then again maybe the point would have been clearer if he said it in chinese.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

We will all drink the same chemical compound, H2O.. many cultures will call it different things, some names we won't understand.. but, when we are handed the glass of water, the words are no longer necessary.. So it is with the lessons, they are learned through doing, not hearing..

The appreciation of Tea may lead me to the ritual of the Tea Ceremony.. but, the ritual of the Tea ceremony will not necessarily lead me to an appreciation of Tea..

Be well...

[red5angel]

brothernumber9 - I explained what I saw in his posts, he did not deny them. He just continued to explain his point of view, which tells me I was right. On top of that his explanation continues to insinuate that he feels he is the subject of a situation for which most of us envy and this is not true. but thanks for trying.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

And, as for the uniforms.. they are the most comfortable things i wear.. i often wear the pants around town in casual settings ( i carry a back-pack to compensate for loss of pocket space).. i am not concerned with cultural connotations or prejudices, almost all of my clothing is chosen with only comfort in mind.. anyone that knows me will tell you how "fashion challenged" i am.. i would wear those BLT lightweight jackets with pockets, too, but that just invites trouble.. with the pants they look enough like regular workout pants to get by..

[intimidation]

It's because Earthdragon beleives in qigong. At least he didn't claim qigong is the foundation for martial arts, then he'd be in huge trouble

[red5angel]

taichibob - I wear the pants when I work out at home often enough, they are loose fitting and breathe well. My point was that some people believe they are part of the tradition of kungfu and if this is the case then with ED's statements in mind, you wouldn't be practicing authentic chinese martial arts without wearing them.

[Midnight]

Originally posted by intimidation
It's because Earthdragon beleives in qigong. At least he didn't claim qigong is the foundation for martial arts, then he'd be in huge trouble


Excuse my ignorance here, but I'm a practitioner (believer) of Qigong.....I'm curious as to what you are insinuating here?

[intimidation]

I'm saying that if you speak of qi or qigong on the internet, be prepared for an inevitable backlash, maybe even across multiple threads and forums

Say one thing that someone doesn't understand, and they may not read any of your other posts, and simply troll you because they don't like you. I'm not accusing anyone specifically, but many, many people do this kind of thing here. Even people you never saw posting before.

[Midnight]

Originally posted by intimidation
I'm saying that if you speak of qi or qigong on the internet, be prepared for an inevitable backlash, maybe even across multiple threads and forums

Thanks for the advanced warning....even if a backlash towards such a discussion seems to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

[intimidation]

IMO there is a clear seperation between qigong and ritual, but not everyone shares my view.

[red5angel]

I was the one discussing with several people, primarily ED and MK about qigong. I don't believe in it, they do. Things were going well until certain comments were made that didn't need to be. Regardless, this has nothing to do with that. When I see BS I'm going to call you on it. If your sensible enough, no big deal, we go our seperate ways and agree to disagree, I've done it dozens of times on this forum.
However, if you continue to spout bull, then I'm going to continue to call you on it. ED has made plenty of posts between now and the qigong thread that I thought were fine, so I said nothing. however when I saw his statments on my footwork thread about athentic kungfu and how if it isn't in chinese and not taught by the chinese it isn't authentic, then I had to call him on it because it is BS. It's a ridiculous belief to go around spouting publicly, and he even went so far as to say that chinese food, cooked by mexicans is not chinese food, which should show anyone with their thinking cap on, how ignorant his view on this whole thing is.

Of course what Fu Pow brought up borders closely on the qi thing, since you indeed would have to understand the chinese mind to understand what they believe Qi is. I chose not to go to that arena because we've already discussed it.

Also to recap, for those who might be confused on the issue, I have nothing against maintaining tradition, an dI have nothing against the chinese culture, it's a subject I myself find fascinating, and I enjoy the chinese martial arts thoroughly. however, I'm not ignorant enough to believe that I cannot learn the authentic chinese martial arts from non chinese and I certainly would never claim that if a chinese person hadn't taught me an art, it wasn't as good as it could be.

[EarthDragon]

redangel,
you said........................... brothernumber9 - I explained what I saw in his posts, he did not deny them. He just continued to explain his point of view, which tells me I was right.

WHAT? I explained my point of view so that means you were right? you lost me there buddy.

My point of view has nothing to do with your thinking you know anything. I didnt deny what I said to you becuse its hopeless to disagree with you because whatever you say you think your right.

let me tell you you have a lot to learn. just becuse you dont understand something dont just disagree and tell others there wrong. That's your downfall. you cant even meet people half way or say OK you have a point or an opinon if is doesnt go along with your limited thinking.

master killer, what would make you think I was removed from my system? and who are my instructors? maybe your confused? I learned from only one man.

[yenhoi]

Whats your beef with "breath-work"?

:confused:

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
master killer, what would make you think I was removed from my system? and who are my instructors? maybe your confused? I learned from only one man. I thought you were the guy in the Southern forum talking about how your teachers promoted less qualified people over you, so you left the system.

[red5angel]

ED - how long have you been on this forum again? Oh wait, did we hang out together in high school? Cause your making a lot of judgements about me on very little data.

You made a lotof condescending and ignorant comments about authentic kungfu, what makes it authentic. those comments involved you syaing that without speaking chinese and being taught by a chinese master, it wasn't authentic but watered down american crap, correct?
You also implied that if a martial artists says that having a chinese master is not necessary, it is because they have never had a chinese master, correct? Or should I do some cut and pasting here? Are you backpedalling now?

The difference between you and I Earth Dragon is that I know I have a lot to learn. I also know that I can learn it from any one who knows it, and I don't have to turn to the color of their skin or their birth place to know they know it.

So tell me I'm wrong here ED. Tell me I mistook what you read and that it doesn't require a chinese master or the chinese language to keep something authentic? Tell me that it doesn't take chinese poeple to make chinese food.

[Vash]

Earth Dragon;

It does not look like you're giving your opinions. It looks like you're saying that the removal of the Chinese cultural sections of an art diminishes that art in both "tradition" (may the word be banished forevermore) and efficacy, a statement which makes no sense when one uses reason.

[red5angel]

Whats your beef with "breath-work"?

whose?

[Merryprankster]

and he even went so far as to say that chinese food, cooked by mexicans is not chinese food

ok, was this really said? i'd love to know.

[red5angel]

sadly MP, it was. On the footwork thread, ED was talking about Italian food or something not being made by Italian chefs. I mentioned that most o fthe chinese resteraunts around here actually have mexican cooks, and asked if that made it somehow, not chinese. His reply was that it was not chinese food.

[Vash]

Indeed, MP, it was. I believe he referred to it as "chinacan," and if he saw some Mexicans preparing food in a Chinese restaraunt, he'd leave.

[EarthDragon]

merryprankster, I said if I saw a mexican cooking chinese food in a chinese resturant I would run. not eat there.

redangel
I am really getting tired of explaining my opinon to you and frankly couldnt care less about you or what you think so I am done responding to you, this is a waste of my time and energy.

I am ending with this note............I think this whole thing has been totally blown out of porportion.

however it's my right to be a tradtionalist and that's what I like, that is the way I teach and that is the way it is.
Our system has not lost anything in the 350 years with the exception of some translations and manuscipts and thats because we pay close attention to preserving it in it's original format. it's taught the same way here as it is in China, canada, germany, IN CHINESE AND TRADTIONAL but as far as everyone else thinks I really dont care its not your watered down mcdojo mixed up art that I am defending, only mine so if you are not a student who cares. that is all.

[Merryprankster]

BWAH-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!


I saw it, you definitely said it wasn't chinese, it was chinacan.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
Our system has not lost anything in the 350 years with the exception of some translations and manuscipts and thats because we pay close attention to preserving it in it's original format. it's taught the same way here as it is in China, canada, germany, IN CHINESE AND TRADTIONAL but as far as everyone else thinks I really dont care its not your watered down mcdojo mixed up art that I am defending, only mine so if you are not a student who cares. that is all. I thought you left 8-Step because of politics? How are you "preserving" a style that you are no longer associated with?

[red5angel]

Earth Dragon you racist a$$ - it's obvious you don't give a lick about anyone since you have assumed anyone who disagrees with your chinese theory has to be going to a mcdojo.
I'd sure be interested in hearing how a non chinese guy like yourself is going to be teachin authentic kungfu though ;)

[Vash]

Well, I suppose being a traditionalist and being a strange form of an elitist can mean the same thing.

So long as it is said in a foreign language.

[EarthDragon]

merryprankster, if you went to chinese resturant to eat some real chinese food and the cook was mexican you would stay?
obviously you guys have never eaten authentic cusine. In NY we are very race oriented, and a good resturant hires people that are suposed to be there. maybe in the midwest you guys dont know the difference i dont know but i feel sorry for you , go get a real brittish mexican tamala's

master killer, I left the ACMAF not the system. you can still work for the company and not the office.

[red5angel]

will you please stop spouting your racist crap you fukkin nazi. Authentic has nothing to do WITH WHO COOKS IT YOU DUMB A$$, that's what I 've been trying to say to you the whole fukking time about the martial arts. If you weren't too busy hating people not like you, or better yet hating yourself for not being like them, you'd fukking see that.And we here in the midwest are trying to move past seeing a persons color and trying to keep an open mind, instead of trying to define everyone by their culture.

I'll give you a little education though and maybe you can spread it around to your racist freinds - the chinese food cooked by mexicans - it still taste like chinese food. So it turns out that chinese people don't exude some special powder needed to make chinese food.

[intimidation]

Yeah but, I never saw anyone but chinese working at a dim sum resaraunt

[EarthDragon]

see how angel has to swear to get his point across? no wonder none listens to you. I have heard from a lot of people out here that they dont bother to respond to you .......now I know why. I should have listened

[CaptinPickAxe]

I have to say this thread is stupid.

Especially after listening forum member spout stuff like, "Its the practioner, not the art" and then come with something like this.

Its common sense, poeple. Being Chinese doesn't make you a better practioner. Just like being white doesn't make you rich. It just so happens that martial arts were ingrained into Asian culture and practiced it as a lifestyle more than a hobbie. I promise you that if we have the same dedication as the monks, we too would be on the same level.

Now, as for Mandirin or Cantonese names for stuff. My take on this is:
Traditional names are not nessacary, but an added bonus (usually something you pay for). By me calling a postion horse stance as opposed to Ma Bu doesn't take away from the art. Hell, it means the same thing JUST IN ENGLISH and last time I check we spoke English in America. Its nessecary to at least have the translated names on paper. Most Americans wouldn't give two seconds to learn chinese just so they can understand that the attack they're doing is called "Tiger Rips Out the Heart".

Instructors,
I've trained under a great caucasian instructor, who had the same knowledge as his Chinese counterpart. I've met an Asian instructor whose attitude was entirely wrong considering what his school was like, how his students acted (and fought), and how he presented himself. Again, the saying stands true in this sense as well, It The Practioner. Not the Art (or in this case, his nationality)

Its seems a little racist.;)

[red5angel]

Its seems a little racist.


just a little.....

[Vash]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
merryprankster, if you went to chinese resturant to eat some real chinese food and the cook was mexican you would stay?
obviously you guys have never eaten authentic cusine. In NY we are very race oriented, and a good resturant hires people that are suposed to be there. maybe in the midwest you guys dont know the difference i dont know but i feel sorry for you , go get a real brittish mexican tamala's

master killer, I left the ACMAF not the system. you can still work for the company and not the office.

Holy ****ing ****. Not only are you clearly announcing your pride as a ****ing racist, you're also saying that the citizens of New York are racist.

Sweet ****ing sesame street. I pity those who study under you. Whatever your martial skill (which is not being discussed for the pro or the con here) your personality is most obviously toxic, your views of humanity scornful, and your ***** small.

You are no different from the confederate flag waving, "let's lynch the dude" freaks we have in abundance here in the south. And that attitude just described is the end of the road on which your views start.

[red5angel]

I'm starting to think Tit Sa and ED are the same person.

[CaptinPickAxe]

In NY we are very race oriented, and a good resturant hires people that are suposed to be there

There are laws against this. EQUAL OPPORTUNITY.

[Merryprankster]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
merryprankster, if you went to chinese resturant to eat some real chinese food and the cook was mexican you would stay?
obviously you guys have never eaten authentic cusine. In NY we are very race oriented, and a good resturant hires people that are suposed to be there. maybe in the midwest you guys dont know the difference i dont know but i feel sorry for you , go get a real brittish mexican tamala's

Mystified.

I'll be glad to let any of my friends disabuse you of the idea that I don't know my food....

I don't care who cooks it as long as it's right. Would I leave if I saw a mexican cooking the food? Hell no. I'd leave if the food was bad or wrong.

[intimidation]

If I saw latin people at a Dim Sum place it WOULD seem odd. Not that they can't do it, but it would be suspicious, but you'd have to taste it to find out.

[red5angel]

but it would be suspicious


why because they aren't chinese?! Don't be obtuse!

[intimidation]

I guess not really suspicous, if I could even tell the difference;)

[red5angel]

really dug yourself in deep on this one didn't you Earth Dragon.

[yenhoi]

Last time I checked, Americans spoke American. :rolleyes:

You, red5, moo.


:eek:

[rogue]

In regards to language it doesn't matter as long as the idea isn't lost in the translation. Look at how the word uke is now used to mean "block" in most karate schools. Sometimes the original name is conveying something that doesn't translate into a single English word or phrase.

[red5angel]

dang dude....

Nothing with breathing, or biomechanics as we understand it. I just don't believe in the mystical Qi

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings..

We will all drink the same chemical compound, H2O.. many cultures will call it different things, some names we won't understand.. but, when we are handed the glass of water, the words are no longer necessary.. So it is with the lessons, they are learned through doing, not hearing..

The appreciation of Tea may lead me to the ritual of the Tea Ceremony.. but, the ritual of the Tea ceremony will not necessarily lead me to an appreciation of Tea..

Be well...

(Nelson Muntz)Haha...your example betrays your own point. Western scientific CULTURE calls it H20 ie 2 Hydrogen atoms and 1 Oxygen molecules. These were discovered by use of the scientific method and unique western historical events. You would have to know something about Western culture to know why we call it H20.

The Chinese have another name for water. I forget the phonetics but it is composed not of a chemical formula but a little stylized picture of a stream or something. Maybe there's a little story behind the character, a little moral lesson.

Granted water is water and we all make use of it in the same way (nice try at a little zen parable BTW.) But the unless we understand the cultural context we would have no idea that we were even talking about. If you gave an alien a glass of water and glass of poison that looked like water and they were labeled H20 and Poison he'd drink either one thinking they're both water and the symbols on the glass would be meaningless. Only if he understood the context of the symbols would he know which one to drink.

Convention-al knowledge is not useless. But I agree we must not mistake the forest for the trees.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by rogue
In regards to language it doesn't matter as long as the idea isn't lost in the translation. Look at how the word uke is now used to mean "block" in most karate schools. Sometimes the original name is conveying something that doesn't translate into a single English word or phrase.

Exactly my point. Look at the abuse of the word CHI for christ's sake. Everyone takes it to mean what they want it to mean.

[EarthDragon]

1- Ying Mian Tou Chui

2- Kao Shen Bi Chui

3- Dun Shen Kua Chui

4- Nian Shou (na) Xiong Chui

5-8 Shuang Xi Liang Zhou Si Chui
(Shuang Qi Shuang Zhou)

BTW- this list comes originally from Fan Xudong via Wang Yongchun.

This is what I mean. these techniques can be translated to 3 different things. To know thier original meaning you must have a firm grasp on the language in which they are written. If all you care about is fighting and trying to beat people up then you are missing a major part of your art.

[Vash]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
If all you care about is fighting and trying to beat people up then you are missing a major part of your art.

Which part?

I don't care to learn of Okinawan culture when I train karate. I wish to learn about it, but not during class. Why? Cuz I study a martial art. i don't go picking fights, but around here, one needs to be able to handle one's self against much larger peeps. Southern football college's with suck-ass players kinda contributes to that atmosphere.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by red5angel

EarthDragon came out in the footwork thread and basically said that an instructor should know everything he can about the language used in the art (proper chinese names of movements, forms, etc..) the culture and history. and he basically stated that somehow, being asian gives one an advantage when teaching kungfu or something to that effect. What do you guys and gals think?

I think only so because once you get deeper into the art , somewhere along the history becomes a big part of dedicated learning...also cross referencing terms from style to style helps you're all talking thesame jive.....