The Evils of Soy returns...

[Ford Prefect]

I haven't been able to find any connection between these guys and a supplement manufacturer. They certainly don't like soy either though:

http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/24/gannon.html

[Tainan Mantis]

I have lived in Taiwan since 1989.
People here eat soy products such as tofu and soy milk everyday.
It is considered a traditional food here.
I don't see anything wrong with the people here either except that the look more slender than the folks in the states.

Anyone else living in Asia find something wrong with soy products?

[bungle]

People in asia are small little feckers just for a start. The also have higher levels of certain sorts of cancers and mental issues. Traditionally made soy is ok in moderation because the traditional preperation methods neutralise harmful substances and make the product more digestible.

Modern processed soy is evil.

www.westonaprice.org

They'll sort you out

[Spark]

You sound like a highly educated individual.

and Westonprice is not a reliable source.

[IronFist]

Why isn't westonprice a reliable source?

Someone give me the Cliffs Notes version of that article please.

[Mr Punch]

As I've said before, I'm with Tainan Mantis on this one.

Somebody wanna show me a scientific review of soy that is not using American soy products? American soy is between 60-80% GM (not in itself a bad thing, depending on the allele they are modifying but it's funny how they test it on the whole population).

Funny, but over here I don't see many men walking around with tits, tho I guess some of the women could do with more good ol American soy!!! The fertility rate over here is declining, but I put that down more to American over-drugged beef imports, ditto Mexican pigs, plus dioxins. [shrugs]

Bungle, you have a point about soy extraction methods. 'd love to see your stats on cancers and mental health tho.

[Vash]

Does soy bleed when I stab it? Then it's not fit to eat.

[blooming lotus]

infertility factor aside, soy products like tofu etc are are ok, and here there are several varieties ...all tasty stuff... but v.high in fat and metabolise alot slower than ( red meat -aside) other proteins...you probably couldn't work out seriously everyday and eat tofu daily and be comfortable...

Ps. chinese people in china ( except for teens) are not so small as everyone imagines ...I'm fml 160 ish cm and 41-46 kgs ...they think I'm tiny and always tell me to me eat more????......maybe it's the rice I dont eat ...........

[bungle]

**** i was gonna make a joke to Spark about being arrogant but too late.

I'm not an expert i just tend to be prideful and arrogant. Also, having an opinion is better than sitting on the fence because if your proven wrong then you get a better answer.

I've read a lot on different nutrition aspects from a laymans point of view. I've rested with the westonaprice team and in particular dr mercola. I trust them. I happen to like the evolutionary nutrtion idea. I think you should read the westonaprice stuff spark. They might be a little dogmatic at times but their heart is where it should be and they make sense.

Even if you managed to proove 90% of what westonaprice and mercola say is bull**** i would still never eat soya.

One recent british study showed soy suppresed the bodies ability to create a certain male hormone. The study declared therefore that soy would protect against breast cancer. Well i feel that it might some how **** men up on the other hand.

My personal choice is to see nutrtion from an evolutionary point of view. Weston a price saw those people who ate more grains in their traditional diets did have better developed physiques than those on meat and veg alone. However, thesegrains were all traditionally prepared to deactivate phyates and make gluten more digestible.

I won't be suprised to hear of folks declaring weston price stuff to be bull since it is radically different from popular nutrtiion guidelines but the low fat thing is one weird screw up of science if you ask me.

As for vegetarians. Well, i've considered it as i seem to be getting more compasionate. We can always buy grass fed free range animals, or get high quality dairy and eggs.

Oh and to cure FAT ASS americans you don't need soy in their diet. They need to completely change their diet and MUCH MORE importantly their attitude.

I see few asians in the media and kung fu flicks who are tall (6ft+), muscular and have wide faces with brimming smiles. This is dogmatic but at the moment this is how i see it. I'm not trying to be racist. I'm fascinated with asian culture. The westonaprice people comment on asian food and traditional methods of cooking and there are many good things in it, including traditional made soy.

I've heard similary many bad things about pork and yet okinawans eat it frequently.

The cancer rate stuff i remember from ages ago when i was looking into the asian diet. I think mostly it was from commentaries on the china study. For example, in the china study there was a village where most of the population subsisted on some sort of gruel. A high percentage of the village had mental problems since the gruel provided inadequate nutrtion for the developing brain.

It's all bla bla. I'm interested in counter arguments to the evolutionary stuff. I looked at this quite in depth.

[Tainan Mantis]

I eat soymilk or tofu all the time.
There are vid clips of me on the Mantis board.
So you can judge if it looks like I am getting messed up(you can be honest).

Bungle,
Asians, especially up North are bigger than you think.
I am 6'2 and when I go to high school here I see kids my height.
As far as more cancer and mental issue I don't know how you figured that.
If it were true the first thing I would point to would be the high rate of pollution here, though.

You say eating soy prevents or affects males hormone?
What effect will it be after eating soy?
There re many different Male hormones, I don't think it is something that affects muscle, or is it?

I don't know about any modern soy proccesing method.
We just take the beans and soak them in water then grind them down to paste which makes soy milk which can be made into tofu.

Ironfist,
I too would like the abbreviated version of the Weston articles, but it looks like there may be too much there for that.
I will read through it when I have time.

Mat,
Is there are problem with US soy beans?
Most of the beans in Taiwan come from the states.

Vash,
Interesting point about your only eating foods that bleed.
I have nothing against your -ism, but I am curious, do you actually stab all your food and watch it bleed first?
-Oops, accidental sarcasm.

Blooming,
I think Im a comfortable eating the soy everyday.
Why do you think it is hard to digest?
That is the first I have heard of it being hard to digest.
I always thought just the opposite.

[Spark]

Originally posted by bungle
People in asia are small little feckers just for a start. The also have higher levels of certain sorts of cancers and mental issues.

They'll sort you out

How was my answer to that statement arrogant?

I've been to the Westonprice site before, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the mandate for their diet revolves around meat. This in itself (to me anyhow) skews any opinion they might have on a meat substitute (ie soy/tofu). And like any pro-*whatever*, they use half-truths and skew facts in order to promote what they believe.

Ironfist - using Westonprice as a reference against soy is like me using PETA as a reference vs. meat.

[bungle]

I wasn't implying you're arrogant, i was implying i'm arrogant.

The meat bias isn't baseless. They do say that vegetarianism is viable but not veganism. I'd be interested in who you subscribe to?

Besides that. It doesn't make their evaluation of Soy or the preparation of grains and beans less valid. Neither does it invalidate their ideas on vegetable preservation.

There website is not a meat shrine. I would say a larger proportion of it is dedicated to preparation of grains, vegetables, legumes and beverages.

What reason do they have for the bias? They start with weston a prices book as the premise.

If you check out dr Mercola and his book he advocates different diets for different metabolic types. This would include almost vegetarians.

I read thoroughly into the evolutionary diet idea and it is almost un deniable that meat played a siginificant part in out diet and evolution.

They are NOT biased to the slaughter and consumption of meat. There is no reason for that. They all start with either paleolithic nutrition, hunter gatherer or traditional nutrtion as a basis for their research.

It is FAR more likely that vegetarians would be the ones to skew science to promote the vegetarian dogma. Since they have an invested interest in everyone following their way. Anyone who has debated eating animal flesh with a vegetarian knows how passionate they are.

It is NOT as if weston a price team promote commercial meat! THEY HAVE NO political allies! No commericial allies! They promote grass fed, free range meat! They have FAR more impartial then ANY vegetarian.

[Spark]

Sorry about the misunderstanding, I thought you were saying I was arrogant and I really wasn't sure why :p

Well like I said, the opening page of the Weston site clearly states how meat is an important part of this diet, and yes they base it on Price's research. Just from that, but also their "myths and truths" page, it seems clear to me that they have a strong bias towards meat (and on this page anyhow, I didn't read anything with regards to free range or the likes of) and against any type of substitute.

Any research I've done has shown that veganism is a viable diet, as long as it doesn't consist of Doritos and french fries haha

Hmm well I was never arguing against their view on grains, beans or vegetables. But like I said they seem to believe strongly in the inclusion of meat into the diet and something that many use as a substitute (ie Tofu) would obviously not fit into their mandate or the research of Weston to which the adhere.

***What reason do they have for the bias? They start with weston a prices book as the premise.

What more of a reason do you need for a bias? Would you not agree that those who subscribe to religion have a certain bias on issues based upon a book?

***They are NOT biased to the slaughter and consumption of meat. There is no reason for that. They all start with either paleolithic nutrition, hunter gatherer or traditional nutrtion as a basis for their research.

Does that make sense though? Who here (in NA western society) hunts their own meat? Where is the entire population going to find readily available wild game? I understand that it makes sense but how is it applicable today? I would counter by checking the research of Dr. T. Colin Campbell, which was done within the last 20 years (up until today) and seems more applicable to the present.

***It is FAR more likely that vegetarians would be the ones to skew science to promote the vegetarian dogma. Since they have an invested interest in everyone following their way.

Why do you say that? The last time I checked, the soy industry hasn't taken anyone to court, but the Beef Industry has (Oprah at that!!)

You asked about my diet and I refer to myself as vegetarian, but I don't eat dairy.

[bungle]

You could hardly compare Weston A prices book to a religion. There is no heaven or hell compensation or strict doctrine to follow or implied. It is a book of observations and personal conclusions.

The hunter gatherer lifestyle immediately applies to us since we have evolved very little since leaving that life style. Some evolution has occured but our rapidly expanding population does not allow for evolution as was done in the small tight nit groups of the hunter gatherers.

That is not to say that we haven't made an adaption but certainly not the dramatic leap to vegetarianism. The Weston A Price stuff is very in depth and clearly indicates where animal products aid in proper growth and development.

Few people enjoy killing animals or even the idea that they're eating a dead animal and i'm sure that with enough motivation the majority of the population would give up meat. On the other hand, the motivation to avoid the guilt and fear that might come from eating mainstream animal products might be much better motivation. So the motivation to eat meat is not as powerful as the desire to not eat meat in my opinion. Unless your a glutinous pig. I'm merely trying to point out that Weston A Price people have no political or commercial ties and that there emotional ties to meat are NOT in the least comparitive to the vegetarian desire to avoid animal products. They CLEARLY indicate their disaproval of commericial animal products and they address vegetarianism frequently.

The China study is supposed to be used to indicate further research and not, as some will, used as dietry guidelines and evidence. These population studies are sometimes misunderstood.

The meat and dairy industry is DWARFED by the folks who sell you grain products.

This is turning into a vegetarianism debate and i don't think it should.

The whole point of my post was to point of the dangers i believe lie with soy. The fact is Weston A Price are the best your gonna get. So read what they have to say. If you hate meat then ignore their advice on meat. They have PLENTY of advice on all types of food and as you will soon realise they know what they're talking about.

In other words read the soy articles and see what is what.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by bungle
People in asia are small little feckers just for a start. The also have higher levels of certain sorts of cancers and mental issues. Traditionally made soy is ok in moderation

Well you sound like a raging idiot. Thanks for your insight.

[Spark]

word!

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis

Is there are problem with US soy beans?
Most of the beans in Taiwan come from the states.



*pointless unrelated trivia*

Brazil is the world's #1 producer of soy beans.

[bungle]

I WAS joking and i do tend to type without considering other folks point of view.

Actually asians are catching up rapidly in height with europeans. And their diet is rapidly changing also. Hardly rural chinese.

[blooming lotus]

no...in rural china..tradition china, they eat donkey....and turtle...and buckets of rice

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by unkokusai


*pointless unrelated trivia*

Brazil is the world's #1 producer of soy beans. nope (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=79) ... to save you the bother of an otherwise probably innacurate and skull-buggering boring site:
The soybean is the most widely grown and utilized legume in the world, with the U.S. being responsible for more than 50% of the world's production of this important food.

And from this mine of trivia... (http://www.duluthport.com/9798winter/youwillknowbeans.html) (first ones I could be bothered to find...).


Tainan Mantis
Mat,
Is there are problem with US soy beans?
Most of the beans in Taiwan come from the states.[/i]Well, all the tests on soy beans saying negative things come from the States, so I assume they are using their own beans, even excluding the industry bias from the testers.

I also know that the fertility rate in Japan is reported to be dropping, which could coincide with the rise in imported soy beans from the US, given that they've been eating a staple diet of rice, fish and soy products for centuries with no ill-effects. Of course, it could just as easily come from the unprecedented rise in dioxins, but given the rise of oestrogen in men here, and the growth of breast tissue on boys, not to mention my own personal bias ( :D :p ), I'm inclined to believe it might have something to do with the soy.


Bungle
People in asia are small little feckers just for a start.[/i]

Shaddap, ya short fat f**k! :p (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1185387,00.html) ...either that or... Shaddap, ya big fat f**k!!! :p (http://www.earthisland.org/eijournal/win98/wr_win98bigpeople.html)

[unkokusai]

Ah, I see the problem. By "Brazil" I actually meant Brazil, Argentina, India, and 'other'. :o

[bungle]

I tell you what nutrition is a *******. You can read one thing and be totally convinced you've found the holy grail and the next you stumble upon a total and equally convincing contradiction.

It is a major pain in the arse. I'm just gonna let my intuition guide me. One day i'll have it all figure out.

I don't trust any expert 100% no matter how many years they've been studying the subject. It is hard to find subjective views.

[blooming lotus]

I think it's also important to keep in mind tha soil no longer has the amount of nutrient as previous............therefore obviously foods that should have tis or that no longer do, or in much lesser quantity

[Spark]

it's true.

for every article one can find saying veg. is bad for you there are the same about saying meat is bad for you.

I just think the key is balance, whichever diet you choose.

[inic]

I dont know where you people see asians eating "LOTS" of soy products. I've been living with chinese in a chinese community for over 2 years now and they DO NOT eat a lot of soy products. I'd say under a cup a day. I even hear jokes about girls giving their bf's lots of soy so they wont get pregnant.
My grandmother fell into the hyped media of wonders of soy. I convinced her to reduce her intake to no more than 1/2 cup a day and her osteoperosis has greatly improved ever since.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by inic
I dont know where you people see asians eating "LOTS" of soy products. I've been living with chinese in a chinese community for over 2 years now

In Boston.

[inic]

What are you getting at? You ever been here? There's 3 chinatowns here. One in downtown, then malden and quincy. Most of the chinese here are "right off the boat". I live in a house with 15 people and only 1 speaks english.

What? are you saying that when they come over here, they change instantly? wow, thats news to me.

personally i'm getting sick of all the asians here. My college is over 1/2 asian. They're taking over this city.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by inic
What are you getting at? You ever been here? There's 3 chinatowns here. One in downtown, then malden and quincy. Most of the chinese here are "right off the boat". I live in a house with 15 people and only 1 speaks english.

What? are you saying that when they come over here, they change instantly? wow, thats news to me.

personally i'm getting sick of all the asians here. My college is over 1/2 asian. They're taking over this city.


Malden and Quincy do not count as 'Chinatowns'. Any more than Revere is 'Italiantown'. There is one Chinatown in Boston. Last time I checked, Boston is located in the US. You figure out the rest.

Oh and if you are sick of all the 'whatever' you might do everyone a favor and get the hell out.

[inic]

I still dont see what youre trying to get at, other than making yourself look better than me. Take a walk down quincy and tell me how many non-asians you see.
And because I'm in the US, what does that matter? chinese are still chinese whether its in france, china, or US.
Take some IB-profen so you can reduce the swelling of that head of yours

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by inic
I still dont see what you're trying to get at, other than making yourself look better than me. Take a walk down quincy and tell me how many non-asians you see.
And because I'm in the US, what does that matter? chinese are still chinese whether its in france, china, or US.
Take some IB-profen so you can reduce the swelling of that head of yours

You might want to take something for yourself. You are the one trying to pass yourself off as Marco Polo because you have a few neighbors who are not Irish.

Oh, you are a bold explorer living in an uncharted land...

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by inic
I
And because I'm in the US, what does that matter? chinese are still chinese whether its in france, china, or US.


Your logic is stunning.

[inic]

Thanks for not answering my questions.
I've been to china twice in the last 18 months, europe and lived in LA for 6 months before I came to boston. I didn't notice any difference in all the chinese people I know. I'm talking about native born chinese people, not ABC's, etc.

Are your "witty" remarks making you feel good or something?

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by inic
Thanks for not answering my questions.
I've been to china twice in the last 18 months, europe and lived in LA for 6 months before I came to boston. I didn't notice any difference in all the chinese people I know. I'm talking about native born chinese people, ?

LOL:rolleyes:

[Tainan Mantis]

At first I was worried about the harmful effects of soy products on men.

But I decided that I will not open a bean curd shop here in Taiwan.

I plan to open a pizza shop instead, so the problem is solved.

At least until I return to the states where I will open a bean curd shop and boba tea shop.

[blooming lotus]

considered doing an internnational foodeies day and making pizza myself.the students were stoked and no doubt your shop will be a huge success ;)........lol...much luck...........don't forget the pepsi!!!!!!!!!

[Tainan Mantis]

Thanks for the luck.
Sorry, but there won't be any Pepsi.
Nor any thing else that is bad for training(world according to me psychosis).

I may post a thread about the shop when it opnes in the culture section of KFO.