Saw a bar fight tonight

[Royal Dragon]

It quite literally lasted a half second. These two guys were argueing by the pool tables, and then all of a sudden POW!. It was a one hit knockout. The poor slob that hit the floor never saw it comming. Neither was drunk. I saw the one have a half a beer, and the other walked in the door and went right over by him. It looked like a prexisting conflict that just erupted as soon as the two saw each other.

I don't know what they were arguing about, but the hitter never gave any sort of indication he would escalate it to the point of physical violence. He just popped him full force out of nowhere and knocked him out cold. He never pushed, or put his hands up or nothing. It was sudden, unpredictable violence.

Question for all, how do we as martial artists prepare for something as sudden, and unpredictable as that?

[CaptinPickAxe]

don't start sh!t with anyone. If you said it seemed past drama, then it was his own fault. You should controll yourself and always conduct yourself as a gentleman. Then you're in the clear.

If it was two strangers who just met, then this is what I would of done in that situation. I would of been suspicious if some guy just walked up and started arguing with me. So I'd back up so I could size him up and stay out of his reach. Then If he would of attacked that would of made him have to advance. I would, depending on his move in this situation, I would use his forward momentum for a throw or try to evade his attack and get to a more advantageous postition for good shot.

[Royal Dragon]

These two defenetly knew eachother, and the argument was prexisting. They weren't yelling in an "out of controll" rage, but you could see anger and raised voices. It was defenetly an argument, and they were close to one another wile doing it, but it really didn't seem like it was going to escelate.

The guy next to me didn't even see the hit. He only saw the other guy on the floor. He was looking right at it when it happened, and literally blinked and missed the hit and the guy going down. It happened THAT fast.

[CaptinPickAxe]

I'm talking about being a good guy always. Always try to have a good ground (at least not bad) and you won't have to really deal with a situation like that. Chances are the "victim" knew there was some beef between them. Try and fix your problems before going out for a drink or to shoot some pool. At least thats my take. I don't really have to fight...I seem to find a way out of it most times.

[Losttrak]

Hit first? If its about winning the fight, thats prolly the best idea. Doesnt mean you wont get in trouble with the po-pos. I would let him hit me, play injured, sue for damages, take his car, house, dog, and nail his girlfriend. Revenge is the ultimate kung fu.

[kungfu cowboy]

If I ever decide to do that, I am walking in like this (http://www.homesaleflorida.com/florida%20information%20clowns.jpg).

[Liokault]

Its all about distance!

The guy got hit because he let the other guy stand at perfect punching range.

What we teach in my class is that you must controle range as soon as you percive that theres a threat.

First option is to create ( so you are just out of punching range ) more room so that the other guy has to step forwards to punch you.......then you can defend your self right from his step in.

The second and slightly less ideal option is to stand to close to the other guy so that he has no room to punch you.....other things come into play here such as head position to make butts harder and covering his arms so he can hot punch/draw a knife etc.

[Royal Dragon]

I don't think this guy expected to get popped though. He just walked into the bar, and started arguing with the guy that had already been there. It seemed like a heated dissagreement. They were in argument distance.

In my case, when I argue like that, being a hot headed Dago, my hands are naturally up, and in motion as I tend talk with them like a steriotypical Italian. I think I would have felt it comming before it was visably noticable and jammed it wile he was chambering. This guys hands were down. He wasn't expecting it to get physical, dispite the fact he initiated the argument.

Hindsite is 20/20 though. In the Bar lastnight, I didn't see it comming till he was getting hit, and I was standing like 8 feet from the fight.

[Royal Dragon]

Hit first? If its about winning the fight, thats prolly the best idea

Reply]
I'm talking about situations where you're arguing with someone, but it's an argument that really shouldn't escalate into a physical fight. 90% of arguments (my guestimate), DON'T end up in physical confrontations. Then suddenly, the person your arguing with decides to take it someplace it shouldn't even go, out of no where. If you go your way, you are going to be popping people every time you have a heated discussion.

[cerebus]

Iron Jaw training! That's the thing for a situation like that!:D

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Question for all, how do we as martial artists prepare for something as sudden, and unpredictable as that?

That you should look for martial training that gives you ingrained position and posture reflexes that will be active 24/7. And that you should look into awareness training on top of that.

If that didn't convince you, wait until you see the same thing with a knife.

[Royal Dragon]

Iron Jaw would not have helped, he hit the guy square in the eye.

As for the knife, yeah I know your right about that. This guy was on the ground so fast, people who SAW it happen, didn't see it happen.

[cerebus]

Well IRON EYEBALL then!!!! :D :D :D

[Brad]

Wear a football helmet.

[Royal Dragon]

LOL!!!

Well gents, I'm off to the bar!!! :eek: ;) :D

[YinYangDagger]

Ain't a GD thing you can do about situations like that. The dude got suckered, period.

You can do something AFTER you wake up. Like hide in the alley with a baseball bat, but as far as being suckered like that, see above...

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
don't start sh!t with anyone. If you said it seemed past drama, then it was his own fault. You should controll yourself and always conduct yourself as a gentleman. Then you're in the clear.

If it was two strangers who just met, then this is what I would of done in that situation. I would of been suspicious if some guy just walked up and started arguing with me. So I'd back up so I could size him up and stay out of his reach. Then If he would of attacked that would of made him have to advance. I would, depending on his move in this situation, I would use his forward momentum for a throw or try to evade his attack and get to a more advantageous postition for good shot.

It's amazing how well everyone does 'in theory' like this!

[Fu-Pow]

It's really simple. If you start arguing with someone in a bar expect a fight. My Sifu has a policy...... as soon as he hears f-you he pops the guy. As soon as the verbage becomes violent expect fists to follow. You just have to hit first.

I was at a bar the other night. This drunk ass I'm sitting next to tells me to go away. I told him to "f-off." He says "f-you" and we had a little stare down contest for a good 20 secs. I could tell though that he was so drunk that he didn't know what the hell he was doing. So I told him to sober up and moved me and my date down a few chairs because I didn't want him sitting so close where he could hit me with a beer bottle or something.

I was ****ed off but I had only had a few beers so I was still in control. That's real important too. If you don't get drunk in bars you're a lot less likely to ever get in a fight. Have a few beers and call it a night. :rolleyes:

[Kickboxer]

Im wondering how is it possible for boxers to take in these sort of punches and still go at it for rounds? Boxing gloves give that much protection? And what about street brawls? I've seen people fight bear-fisted that lasted long as 10 mins.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Kickboxer
...bear-fisted... :eek:
that's a new style on me!!!

Depends where you hit 'em. Also because of boxing gloves there's a different impact.

The simple answer to this one is Brad pointed out, wear protective clothing at all times.

Or as Christopher M pointed out, become a totally wired basket-case.

[cerebus]

Jeez Fu-Pow, how many times has your sifu been in prison? If I hit everyone who said"F-You!" to ME during an argument, I'd have one impressive record!:eek:

[CaptinPickAxe]

Exactly that. Theory. No telling what would happen in a situation like that. At least I contributed to the thread with my take as opposed to flaming someone else's post. Good job, you just affirmed your roots in troll-hood.;)

[cerebus]

Heh, heh. I take it you're responding to someone else's post? :p :confused:

[CaptinPickAxe]

hey...





















what?:confused:

[cerebus]

Well, you replied right under my post, but it didn't quite seem to match anything I said, so I'm guessing it's not my post you're replying to (I guess I could be wrong).

[CFT]

Unless you go around regarding everyone in every environment as a potential assailant, then it is possible you are going to get sucker punched/attacked at some point.

However, to maintain this level of vigilance is very tiring and IMO impossible. Obviously, your level of alertness should be modified as your environment changes; this is simple common sense and situational awareness.

This would not really protect you from sneak attack where no prior animosity exists (although rare IMO). People with a violent agenda will almost always start off with verbal provocation ... all part of the humiliation process ... and then proceed to physical provocation (pushing/prodding/bumping) and then to a full blown assault.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Kickboxer
Im wondering how is it possible for boxers to take in these sort of punches and still go at it for rounds? Boxing gloves give that much protection? And what about street brawls? I've seen people fight bear-fisted that lasted long as 10 mins.

1. boxer's know how to take a punch
2. not everyone has "one punch" power.
3. some people have glass jaws, or other low tolerances for pain/impact.

[cerebus]

Boxers are also expecting it, so they keep their hands up, keep their head & upper body in constant motion and do what they can to minimize impact when they DO get hit (roll with punch, catch some of the force on their glove or arm, etc). Then, sometimes, they do get hit clean and, like the guy at the bar they hit the canvas.

[Ludeviews]

Just my take on the subject,

If you're arguing with someone you should be ready for it to get physical, just in case, this includes like someone said get distance, have hands up, position yourself and watch em out.
Things like there eyes will get bigger as adrenalin gives you tunnel vision also 1 word answers is a good clue the guy is about to get physical.

oh and apart from what's been said, if a boxer doesn't see the punch and its a good'un chances are he goes down...what he doesn't see coming he can't prepare for. Hence I love hooks on the inside!

[Ford Prefect]

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=ygx1zKRBLJ&isbn=0873645863&itm=2

[Ford Prefect]

Don't argue like that in bar... If you're going to fight you better make sure that it is something you are willing to risk debilitating injury, grevious harm to your body, or even death over because it is quite possible that's what will happen if you lose.

[Ray Pina]

I agree that being a "good" ( we won't go into the philosophical discussion of what is "good') guy avoids a lot of problems.

But this winter I was taking a nap in my car in Chinatown waiting for class and I hear some guy behind me cursing and then notic ehim doing something to my rear fender. I get out and noticed he keyed my car.

So of course I ask him what the hell he's doing and he points to a dent on his front fender and says, "look what you did."

I asked him if it ever occured to him that I just parked here and the guy here before me did that backing out. Then he just had a stupid look on his face and got in his car.

It wasn't until he drove off that O noticed he strached my car. It wasn't too bad, and the guy was like 50-something maybe older Chinese guy so what am I going to do about it anway.

Point being, sometimes trouble finds you anyway. Like if your new girlfriend just dumped some juice-head quido with little self esteem and feels the need to trace you down.

Be prepared. When anyone that is not a friend stands close to be I tend to have my hands folded at my chest and one hand on my chin in the "hhhhmmmmm" position but keep changing and moving them so as not to look retarted but keep them somewhere where they can shield.

This sounds nuts, but I find myself doing it unconsciously. But when out at clubs and some strange guy leans over at the bar in to point out some chicks a$$ or something you don't know what it's about. It's been engraned in me.

Also have learned that Hsing-I's Chicken step and Ba Gua walking are great for getting through dancing drunk crowds.

As MA we should generally be aware and prepared.

[sakko]

I think mat said it best when he said:
"The simple answer to this one is Brad pointed out, wear protective clothing at all times.

Or as Christopher M pointed out, become a totally wired basket-case."

Obviously being a bit sarcastic, his point is that neither of these is a valid solution. What IS a valid solution is avoiding these kinds of situations.

Obviously the hitter dude was either:

A) pretty ****ed about something

B) a total nut job

The solution for these problems is simple:

A) Don't **** people off, or put yourself into situations that they will percieve they need to get ****ed at you

B) Stay away from wackos

Another reply kinda triggered something in me that probly is worth mentioning, the simple link to barnes and noble "Bar Room Brawling" guide. How about staying out of bars? I mean one guy was even talking about moving him and his date down a few chairs to avoid trouble. I dunno, if you gotta date, there's probably alot more creative things or interesting places you could be doing/at.

Bars are a haven for morons and over-reactive putzes. Just add alcohol and blammo, instant confrontation. Bars suck, if you wanna have a drink, theres plenty of places you can get one that aren't chock full o' tards. Basically any type of locale (bar) that has its own fighting style (bar room brawling) is probably some place you don't want to frequent.

Sakko's tips for avoiding instant explosive deadly combat are:

1) be nice

2) don't go places there's lots of fights at

3) choose your friends wisely

4) avoid putzes, drunks, hotheads (basically anyone without a good personality)

5) (optional) don't drink

If you follow even a few of these rules you will avoid this type of combat almost completely. If you follow all of them, you will avoid it 100%, IMO..

[Ray Pina]

All true.

But if I am not drunk, don't even drink, can I still get slammed by some other drunk guy running a light or stop sign at 95 m.p.h.?

The point, in NYC there's always someone out of control drunk, high, crazy, ect., talking to themselves -- even trying to stop traffic -- all times of the day and night. Forget about taking the subway.

You can evoid only so much. Once you walk out the door anything can happen, as learned by the D.C. sniper case. Prepare for what you can. It's not that hard to keep a casual eye out. Someone you know is passed at you should be kept at arms lenght .... there's a reason for that phrase.

[sakko]

So what can you do to eliminate that situation of living in a place under constant threat of attack?

[rubthebuddha]

die.

no other way around it. this universe is not under our control and that won't change any time soon. even if one day all humans behave nicely, tires will blow out, flower pots will fall from balconies, earthquakes will rumble, lightning will cook and asteroids will do whatever they **** well please. so as long as we're alive, we run the risk of death.

hm. that sounds like something either of the two frontrunners in the 2000 presidential election would have said. ;)

[Ray Pina]

I was just reading about a theory on why so many people love conspiracy theories: they find fear in the notion that we live in a world of chaos.... it's hard for them to grasp that a lone loser can kill someone like JFK, ect.

Now, life and the world is beautiful. But just as easy as you flush the spider down the toilet you get a massive heart attack and die, or a truck with highly explosive gas jackknives around the bend in front of you on a foggy road.

I don't live in fear at all, far from it. Actually maybe a little to lax. But I try to be aware of "potential" situations, like when the guy infront of me on the LIE is swerving a bit and it's 11:00 p.m. Friday night after class .... he might be drunk, procede with caution.

If I stole some guys girl, got him fired somehow, accidentatly bumped his car, ect., I'd prepare myself as best I could without making it look like I am as to not provoke. That's the best you can do.

If he does get to you, then be prepared to bring him more violence than he ever anticipated possible from a single unarmed man.... than afterwards be sorry that it had to happen that way and be glad it wasn't you.

Not pretty, not happy, not ideal -- just life unfolding.

I hope it never happens to me.

[Royal Dragon]

Someone above said "Don't go to bars". For me this would be hard. Vertually all my real freinds hang out in corner pubs on Friday, and Saturday night. If I want to see them, I have to go there (Especially considering everyone's busy sceduals). It's not a bad thing to do. I don't drink AT ALL, but I can usually be found at Phil's Sports bar in Elmwood Pk. or a little bar called "The Corner" in Aurora. Both bars have their share of bar fights from time to time. I have been going to Phil's since I was 21, and The Corner (A rougher bar btw) for about 6 years now. In all this time, I've fought twice I think. Both times were challenges from other fighters, or just guys who like to brawl. I lost the one, and won the other. Each time, loser bought the winner a drink. Outside of that, I've delt with aggressives by just being mellow and never had a problem. I've ever been in any real bar fight in my life.

I think what happened in this case, is an argument from elsewhere, just transplanted locations. So to me, I think the best thing to do is try not to get into arguments (I can't belive "I" just said that LOL!!), and stay out of the way of hostile people.

If you do manage to get involved in something, nonscelontly keep your hands up as sugjested by EvolutionFist. The very fact that you do that may just de-escelate things (or make them worse depending).

[sakko]

rub.. lol..

Yes, dying is an option, but the answer I was trying to prompt was "move".

If you are uncomfortable with a situation you move away from it, whether its a person, a table, a city, or a country.

Just because I could live in Pleasantville USA does NOT mean I won't get my clock cleaned by a drunk driver or disgruntled high school student. But that also doesn't mean I should move to Iraq because I have no control over my life.

We do have control over our lives. If it's your turn to go, it's your turn to go, but you should do what you can do within your power to make your life safe. Not life in a bubble, but not life on the edge either.

[IronFist]

I call BS.

Isn't Royal Dragon the one who started a thread saying he was in a bar fight and then later posted and said he was just kidding?

:D

[Royal Dragon]

No, I threatened to start a bar fight, but wussed out at the last second


























:eek:

[Royal Dragon]

Actually, I think WATER Dragon posted that thread.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by cerebus
Boxers are also expecting it, so they keep their hands up, keep their head & upper body in constant motion and do what they can to minimize impact when they DO get hit (roll with punch, catch some of the force on their glove or arm, etc). Then, sometimes, they do get hit clean and, like the guy at the bar they hit the canvas.

Sure they do. that's what good training does. They're also fighting other trained strikers. One thing I've noticed in the fights I've been in is that the avg punch from an untrained guy isn't super hard. I've been completely blindsided before - I turned a corner and got popped as soon as I did. The punch landed on the side of my face, and a fight ensued.

I'm in no way saying that sport fighters can't be dropped by an unexpected shot. But, knowing how to deal with being struck counts for alot. In a fight, there are several factors that come into play. The ones I stated in that post - ability to absorb damage and the strength of your opponent's punch - both come into play.

[rogue]

Even with a lousy punch most people stand there shocked at what just happened. I've even seen it in sparring when someone isn't focusing and they get hit.

[Royal Dragon]

Some people even fall down.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by rogue
Even with a lousy punch most people stand there shocked at what just happened. I've even seen it in sparring when someone isn't focusing and they get hit.

Bingo. That's what happens. contact training (like that of a sport fighter) helps prevent that.

[IronFist]

Maybe it was Water Dragon. Is he in Chicago? Cuz you are, and I remember it was in a bar around Chicago, or maybe on the border of IL/WI or something like that.

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, he's in Chicago, I think down by Indiana. I'm in the Southwest suburbs of Chicago.

[m_s_ifland]

I'm probably not as experienced in MA as you guys, but I am experienced in bar fighting.
Although every situation is different, What works for me is, I will take a step back, act confused, and ask sincerely"Do you want to fight or something?" or I'll say"What grade are you in?". This usually confuses them and they walk away. Only in a couple of instances has it actually led to a fight. But you have stepped back to a position of advantage, as far as sight and preparedness. The ones that did lead to a fight, I was ready to handle it, and was able to control the attacker with minimal damage to either of us.