Counter's?

[EarthDragon]

I was just going over some joint locking today in class with my students and they were asking about countering, I showed them a few. My sifu was reluctant to show us all of them, however he said all locks have counters. I was wondering what some of your favorites are.
Mine are turning into any elbow lock and spinning into a elbow strike.
In 8 step we have the joint locks from eagle claw added by Feng Hwa Yi listed below, just wondering if anyone has some not listed here, from eagle claw only. I think these are all that are in the EC system but could be mistaken. PS I am missing some of the chinese names so If you have then please feel free to post them.

HOLDING THE BASKET( CHOW NA QUA LAN )
WIND BENDS THE WILLOW( YI FONG CHI LOU )
TWIST THE MOOSES HEAD ( LI CHALL YONG SOU )
CHONG FE TIES THE PIG ( CHONG FE QUEN JEN )
CONTROLLING THE GENERAL’S HEAD ( CHOW BIEN JUN )
DIVIDE THE CONTINENT’S ( SUANG FEN TIN SHA )
BLACK CLOUD COVERS HEAD ( WU YUEN JOU DING )
POISONOUS SNAKE SURROUNDS THE NECK ( POU SZHU PAWN JIEN )
BEND THE CONDOR’S WING ( DA PUN DZUH TZI )
CONTROLLING THE ROOSTER’S THROAT
SMALL WRAP
LARGE WRAP
BEGGAR ASKS A FAVOR
WHITE HORSE TWISTS HIS HOOF
STEALING THE SHEEP BY ACCIDENT
HERO GIVES AN INVITATION ( BA WAN CHI HUH )
TWIST THE WORLD’S AXIS
BENDING THE HAWK’S WING
PUSH CANOE INTO LAKE
CHANGE THE POST HOLDING THE ROOF ( HO DWA BAN DO )
IMORTAL CROSSES THE OCEAN
HOLDING THE SHIPS RUDDER
PADDLING THE BOAT
EAGLE SWOOPS BEHIND DA PUN DZUH TZI )
MONKEY SITTING ON THE TEMPLE
LAO TZU RIDES THE COW ( LAO TZU SHI DAO )
CROSSING THE TIGERS PAW’S
CROSSING THE DONKEY’S LEGS
MONKEY HOLDING THE SCEPTRE
RIDING THE DONKEY

[Ronin BaBu]

I'm not to sure about that chinese E.dragon.. I took the throws to a chinese friend and she said it wan't any dialect of chinese at all..
and we were never sure that master fong did eagle claw... we think he might have just learned some shuai chiao. just my 2 cents.

About countering i prefer throw counters to joint locking counters. jumping over a beng tio and turning a hip throw is way more fun.

[mantis108]

Hi Earth Dragon,

Great topic. Personally, Chin Na and Shuai are inseperable. This is the reason why TCMA in general are suffering right now that people think the 4 attacks (Da Ti Na Shuai ) are independent of each other. It is the same way that people learn to attack but never learn to counter. But who can blame them? Even the "masters" are treating or as at least it appears that they treat them as seperate entities. Then came the fighter range theory that supposed to work with these tools. The result is that some of us hand our a$$ over to the MMA guys.

Anyway, you have a pretty interesting list there. Some of the moves' name are similar to GM Han Hsing Tang's Chin Na moves. I believe his stuff is Long Fist though.

I recognize the following

<<<CHONG FE TIES THE PIG ( CHONG FE QUEN JEN )
SMALL WRAP
LARGE WRAP
WHITE HORSE TWISTS HIS HOOF
HERO GIVES AN INVITATION ( BA WAN CHI HUH )
BENDING THE HAWK’S WING
PADDLING THE BOAT >>>

I have see this one form Babu Tanglang I think "EAGLE SWOOPS BEHIND (DA PUN DZUH TZI )" . But I am not a 100% sure.

Actually, General Cheung Ties the pig is one of my favorite moves. It can be the finish for quite few moves. You can initiate with Boatman Rows the Oar (kind of a standing arm bar), which seems to be a favorite move of GM Han. Yet, I don't like it that much. I prefer to enter with a Dengpu (can add rolling dragon elbow) and finish with GCTP. BTW, if the opponent knows how to counter without just muscling out of the situation, it is great fun to play with Chin Na.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[EarthDragon]

Mantis 108,
When you are doing Ceung Fe, do you find it neccesary to also to trap the leg on the takedown or do you just rely on the tie?
I do hear you about the seperation thing, I anxiously wanted to learn the counters to the applications that I leanred , however my sifu would always tell me later later... I did mange to squeeze some of them though and use them alot when demonstrating. I teach at an Aikido school on saturdays and the sensei always asks me to show him a counter or reverse for his locks, seems his sensei also held them to himself.

Ronin Ba Bu, listed above are the Chin na not the Shuai.

Also How can you jump over Bung tiao when the elbow is locked? are you lifting the right leg high enough? this should prevent your opponent from jumping

[mantis108]

Hi Earth Dragon,

The beauty of Cheung Fei Ties the Pig is that it is a 3 on 1 "seize" before the control. It would be best if the opponent is unbalanced and he is trying hard to avoid smashing his face to the ground. That's why you initiate with the dengpu. You could use the Boatman Rows Oar but as I said before I don't feel comfortable with the BRO. In the friendly version you twist his arm slightly and you use your knee to bent his elbow. As the elbow is being bent, you increase the pressure on the wrist lock You don't have to but it's nicer to have the wrist lock. You are practically doing 2 locks at once. So the arm folds for you. Your opponent would have to comply by lowering his body to the ground (shoulder first most likely) or risk serious damage to the arm. You simply at this point pin his arm by the crook of the elbow if you are nice about it. If you want to inflick pain, pin his bicep with your knee instead. You could also increase the pressure on the wrist lock (concertina effect) instead of pinning the bicep, which is less nasty. BTW, his forearm should be perpendicular to the floor at this point. I don't feel as safe using just the wrist lock. I prefer the knee on bicep pin instead. But your partner properly will hate you for it. ;) So be nice and play nice.

To counter the move, it has to be done way before the move takes place. Once the move is in motion, it's very hard to shake off because it is a 3 on 1 seize.

On a side note, I think the move is named as such is because it makes the opponent struggle similar to and squealing like a you know what.

Mantis108

[Ronin BaBu]

E.dragon, it is true the arm stays locked in the beng tio, however this doesn't prevent an acrobatic way of countering.
The way i do it is not necessarily a pure jump, it is more of a butterfly kick, during the kick you turn into the locked arm which neutralizes the lock, allowing you to then throw the thrower with a labie or hip throw.

[EarthDragon]

Ronin Ba Bu
gottcha, understand now what you meant. I do find sometimes that to get the split second that I need to catch my opponent off guard so something like that wouldnt happen is just do a simple front kick, this will stop the opponent from being able to counter in anyway seeing as how by the time he fells the pain from the groin, he's already on the ground.:D

PS you never told me who you were????? or maybe I have forgotten

[Ronin BaBu]

I am sifu Jason. I studied under sifu Steve Spoth and Joe Oconner, to answer your question E.dragon.

Yes, distraction is vital before attemptimg any throw or joint lock.

[EarthDragon]

OK now I you . How are steve and joe doing? heard the krav maga is going great for steve. Are you still training at the edge? I teach on saturdays at an aikido school if you ever want to stop by and train. mantis that is not aikido