support leg for roundhouse kick [Archive]

Judge Pen

05-10-2004, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by SevenStar
This was discussed in a thread here a few weeks ago. Do a search. If I find it, I'll bump it up.

I thought that was a discussion on the support leg for the side kick. . . ? Anyway, the support leg for side and round are very similar, if not the same, ime. The difference is with the kicking leg, but on both of these kicks my support leg is slighlty bent and I pivot on the ball to where my heel is pointing toward the direction of my kicking target.

SevenStar

05-10-2004, 03:20 PM

Nah, it was for the round. I was real busy today at work, but I'll dig it up after class tonight.

SevenStar

05-10-2004, 07:54 PM

This one was actually about something else, and ended up about the roundhouse:

http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=29652&perpage=15&highlight=round%20kick%20pivot&pagenumber=3

The sole purpose of this one was the roundhouse:

http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=29479&highlight=thai+pivot

Ikken Hisatsu

05-10-2004, 10:14 PM

I did wonder, because theres a guy at kung fu who says you shouldnt be on the balls of your feet when throwing a roundhouse. I didnt understand why he thought this- I do MT as well as KF, and my MT coach has a whole lot more experience than this guy. Didnt say anything though, I have better things to do with my time than argue with people.

Mika

05-10-2004, 11:34 PM

Originally posted by yenhoi
There are "options" : step and put your supporting foot in the final pivoted/turned position, and then follow through with your leg and hips.

:(

Sure, you're right, but that's not pivoting. That's taking a step. And in any case, you're actually pivoting midair with that, are you not? Unless you are not pivoting at all and doing a kind of monkey kick (which I used to have in my avatar), but that's another kick altogether.
Also, you could not worry about the pivoting at all, and kick while jumping, but that doesn't really apply to Ikken's question, either. I guess he was asking how to pivot. The ball of the foot is the only way to do that.

As long as Ikken gets the point, it's all good...:cool:

Now, Ikken, to be on the ball of your foot...you mean reaching up? Sometimes you have to, if the target is so high that you cannot reach it without standing up like that. Of course you could ask whether one really needs to use his legs in that situation, but that's a topic for another thread (which I am sure has been discussed here before..)...;)

//mika

SifuAbel

05-11-2004, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by Ikken Hisatsu
couple of questions-

1. do you have your support leg straight or slightly bent

2. when you do a roundhouse kick, do you pivot on the ball of your foot? if not, how do you get the support foot around?

reasons.

1. At the moment of impact , which is only for a half second, its straight. Reason, there is a lot less stress on the supporting leg that way and you are able to loosen your groin muscles easier for the stretch and balance is easier to control.

2. Usually on the ball, sometimes on the heel if there is a distancing issue and I don't want to go that extra 8 inches or if I'm doing a retreating round with the front leg. Once pivoting and position is attained we bring the whole foot down to flat for the contact moment. Once the whip is done and the foot has tucked back to first position then we bend back to normal. It all sounds like a lot but its really a split second of action.

The key to power in a round is the whipping action. It can't be a one way blunt kick. It has to whip out and back cleanly. A bullwhip gets its power from generating a wave from the hand, to the handle of the whip, through the length of it, compressing and speeding up the wave. So at the end you get a speed that breaks the sound barrier to get that familiar "crack" sound. By then the hand power has been transfered into an accute finite point. This action is relative to the roundhouse.

SevenStar

05-11-2004, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by SifuAbel

1. At the moment of impact , which is only for a half second, its straight. Reason, there is a lot less stress on the supporting leg that way and you are able to loosen your groin muscles easier for the stretch and balance is easier to control.

I bend my support leg if I'm doing a low kick.

2. Usually on the ball, sometimes on the heel if there is a distancing issue and I don't want to go that extra 8 inches or if I'm doing a retreating round with the front leg. Once pivoting and position is attained we bring the whole foot down to flat for the contact moment. Once the whip is done and the foot has tucked back to first position then we bend back to normal. It all sounds like a lot but its really a split second of action.

We get our support foot around by shuffling, not by pivoting.

The key to power in a round is the whipping action. It can't be a one way blunt kick. It has to whip out and back cleanly. A bullwhip gets its power from generating a wave from the hand, to the handle of the whip, through the length of it, compressing and speeding up the wave. So at the end you get a speed that breaks the sound barrier to get that familiar "crack" sound. By then the hand power has been transfered into an accute finite point. This action is relative to the roundhouse.

the thai roundhouse doesn't get it's power from the snap. If you are throwing a thai kick and hear a snap, you probably aren't throwing all that hard. A good thai roundhouse makes more of a deep thud than a loud crack.

Ikken, how to roundhouse varies amongst CMA and thai boxers, hence the discussions I posted earlier.

SifuAbel

05-11-2004, 11:49 AM

I don't think the thai round house is whats being discussed here.

The snap is describing action, not sound.

define shuffling............

The power is generated by the over all movement. The final snap is just the delivery.

The anaolgy with the bullwhip was meant to show that the energy is carried from the very beginning of the movement from the ground out to the end of the leg. Holding and just waiting in position and then kicking in a broken movement does not generate the same power.

SevenStar

05-11-2004, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by SifuAbel
I don't think the thai round house is whats being discussed here.

yeah, I agree. I'm just offering a different perspective of the kick.

The snap is describing action, not sound.

I know. when I said "hear a snap" I actually meant "hear a crack" - that loud popping noise when a snap kick hits the pad.

define shuffling............

In thai, it's called a switch kick. If I am left lead, I switch my feet, bringing my lead back slightly, and moving my right forward some and simultaneously turning the right foot outward as it advances. Basically, you just switched leads, and the right root is already turned out, so there's no need to pivot. If you've done jkd or jun fan, it's similar to a 'z' step.

you can also step outward, without the switch.

The power is generated by the over all movement. The final snap is just the delivery.

naturally. the MT kick doesn't snap at all, which is why I singled out the snap.

SifuAbel

05-11-2004, 01:01 PM

"the thai roundhouse doesn't get it's power from the snap."

This is what you posted. You posted about power generation, not delivery.

The crack is the sound of skin hitting leather, not the sound barrier breaking. LOL! I can get good sound out of a bag too, especially with no shoes on. Thats not an issue. Snap in our definition is the action , not the sound.

The switch kick leaves you twisted in too many directions. And, puts too much stress on the knees. Ask ric rufus. You can do it if you want. Either way, its a huge telegraph.

"yeah, I agree. I'm just offering a different perspective of the kick."

Its an all together differnt kick that happens to share the name. Its not done in the same way for the same pupose.

SevenStar

05-11-2004, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by SifuAbel
"the thai roundhouse doesn't get it's power from the snap."

This is what you posted. You posted about power generation, not delivery.

this is what you posted: "The key to power in a round is the whipping action."

that's what I was addressing when I said snap. I used crack to describbe the sound, as I stated in my last post. In a thai kick, whipping motion is not the key to its power.

The crack is the sound of skin hitting leather, not the sound barrier breaking. LOL!

I never said that it was. I wasn't addressing your sound barrier comment.

I can get good sound out of a bag too, especially with no shoes on. Thats not an issue. Snap in our definition is the action , not the sound.

the sound is an issue... a whipping kick makes quite a different sound than a penetrating one.

The switch kick leaves you twisted in too many directions. And, puts too much stress on the knees. Ask ric rufus. You can do it if you want. Either way, its a huge telegraph.

it's not a huge telegraph. the switch can be as subtle as you make it. You're not twisted in too many directions either. your body is headed in one direction - the direction of the kick. The trauma of one person is not indicative that the kick places undew stress on the knees.

Its an all together differnt kick that happens to share the name. Its not done in the same way for the same pupose.

it's the same kick. it's done VERY differently though.

Ikken Hisatsu

05-11-2004, 01:55 PM

just to clarify, it is a MT kick. I practice kung fu and MT, and I find MT kicks are just plain better so thats what I use. my sifu agrees, and we are starting to teach people MT round kicks as opposed to classic CMA round kicks.

and im not on the ball of my foot to reach up to the target (if its that high it isnt worth it), i just find it difficult to move the entire foot- I can do it, but the friction slows the whole thing down so its less powerful.

as for switch kicks, i am left handed and fight in a southpaw stance. I have a lot of difficulty in doing roundhouse kicks with my right leg from an old running injury, however I can do far better side kicks off that leg than off my left. to be honest, i dont think switch kicks are worth it. they do telegraph if the opponent has any idea about MT, and you can get more power from other kicks. rarely see them used in K-1.

SifuAbel

05-11-2004, 02:13 PM

whatever makes you feel good................

SevenStar

05-11-2004, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by Ikken Hisatsu
just to clarify, it is a MT kick. I practice kung fu and MT, and I find MT kicks are just plain better so thats what I use. my sifu agrees, and we are starting to teach people MT round kicks as opposed to classic CMA round kicks.

:p

and im not on the ball of my foot to reach up to the target (if its that high it isnt worth it), i just find it difficult to move the entire foot- I can do it, but the friction slows the whole thing down so its less powerful.

yeah, I know what you mean.

as for switch kicks, i am left handed and fight in a southpaw stance. I have a lot of difficulty in doing roundhouse kicks with my right leg from an old running injury, however I can do far better side kicks off that leg than off my left. to be honest, i dont think switch kicks are worth it. they do telegraph if the opponent has any idea about MT, and you can get more power from other kicks. rarely see them used in K-1.

switch kicks are the shiznit. you can't just switch - it needs to be set up - as in off of a punch. I can get the same power out of both, but I'm a hard kicker anyway, so it may just be me.

Pork Chop

05-12-2004, 07:18 AM

seven
err couldn't the wrong sound be caused by the wrong part of the leg hitting the bag?
ie, kicking with your foot/instep as opposed to your shin?
Too high up on the shin = there's no noise and the kick feels stuffed.
Too low on the leg = your smacking with the foot/instep, making a louder, btich slap noise, leaving yourself open to busted up toes and screwed up ankles.

I know what you're saying about the bending the knee thing though. A good round stays bent until impact, and then straightens to send the force into the bag, as well as spring your foot back to a good recovery position. The other way you're saying is bad, seems more knee than hip, is somewhat "flicky", and can be the kicking equivalent of an "arm punch".

I like switch kicks, but I have yet to actually use one fighting.

edit: I was able to use a switch kick once, but barely remember it. It was a spur of the moment thing and it came out all low. Point being, I can't use it regularly. I can throw lead leg rounds without the switch.

SevenStar

05-12-2004, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by BMore Banga
seven
err couldn't the wrong sound be caused by the wrong part of the leg hitting the bag?
ie, kicking with your foot/instep as opposed to your shin?
Too high up on the shin = there's no noise and the kick feels stuffed.
Too low on the leg = your smacking with the foot/instep, making a louder, btich slap noise, leaving yourself open to busted up toes and screwed up ankles.

I know what you're saying about the bending the knee thing though. A good round stays bent until impact, and then straightens to send the force into the bag, as well as spring your foot back to a good recovery position. The other way you're saying is bad, seems more knee than hip, is somewhat "flicky", and can be the kicking equivalent of an "arm punch".

that's basically what I was saying. whipping kicks aren't supposed to hit with the shin. Whipping kicks make a popping noise upon impact with a bag, because of the striking area. By MT definition, that's "wrong".

I can throw lead leg rounds without the switch.

So can I. Learned from my friend/former coach. He was a karate guy too, go figure. He learned while growing up in japan, and only referred to his style as "traditional japanese karate". He would open his hip a little wider than normal, then turn his hip over rapidly - really no different from a thai roundhouse, other than the opening of the hip. I use that kick quite a bit.

SifuAbel

05-12-2004, 12:40 PM

Video w/ sound would be a good way to show this.

ShaolinTiger00

05-12-2004, 01:10 PM

The snap is describing action, not sound.

Abel I think this is again the "dead leg" MT kick vs a kungfu "snap". - your kick is whipping the hips and snapping at the end with the foot hitting very fast. (bullwhip was an excellent analogy) the MT kick is like a baseball bat. - slightly slower but it is not snapping it is traveling thru. like a baseball player's shoulder are the pivot of a baseball bat swung thru the air trying to cruch the ball. they travel together even after they meet, propelling the ball.

A whip & a baseball bat. which one is more powerful? it's clear. which one is faster? it's clear. A wave vs. an arc

Switch kicks are easliy telegraphed? not really. You never lead off with a switch kick. it is thrown in combination with solid combinations and knees.

As Seven star mentioned, I bend my support leg when kicking very low.

since you were talking about sound.. A good snap kick makes a hard loud "Whap".. a roundhouse makes a deeper "cushhh.." it even sounds longer as it comes thru and maintains contact longer.

SifuAbel

05-20-2004, 10:32 AM

Ernesto Hoost just won K-1 with a series (at least 6 during the fight) of snapping roundhouse kicks that pummled the opponenet's arm finally making him quit.

Oh, and a whip will hit you hard and tear the flesh off of you.

Ray Pina

05-20-2004, 10:39 AM

Support leg is bent because I am driving off of it ... weight going forward. This is because we do not plant and kick. We want mobility while kicking. Also, the leg does not go so much "around", but it is still a roundhouse.

Of course also pivot on the ball of foot

Indestructible

05-20-2004, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by yenhoi
There are "options" : step and put your supporting foot in the final pivoted/turned position, and then follow through with your leg and hips.

:(

Ohh... the problem with this is you open your groin to a strike when you step first. I would'nt do that unless my opponent was hurt and my roundhouse was meant to finish.

GunnedDownAtrocity

05-20-2004, 11:27 AM

im with seven and st on this. i have also heard the mt round house compared to swinging your leg over a bike, though i like the bat analogy better.

i never raise up when kicking intentionally. i personally feel you lose power when doing this. i also don't kick high enough to need to which is another personal preference.

i also feel i get more power by stepping instead of pivoting, but whatever the situation calls for.