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Green_Tea
05-11-2004, 08:22 AM
I have knee problems too, but a little bit different than IronMonkey's so I thought I'd start a new thread.

My doctor told me that through rowing, the cartilage in the back of my knees started to disintergrate, causing my knees to slightly go "off track". It's worse in the left knee because I only rowed starboard side. Things have been a lot better since I don't row anymore but I can still feel pain sometimes, like when we're in a hill climbing horse stance during Buddha Hand Brething or the like.

So, I was thinking about getting knee wraps or braces or something for both knees. Any recomendations?

I am also taking vitamins to help regain so cartilage. I was on Glucosomine but it dind't seem to help. I took Shark Cartilidge for a long time partly because it helped a lot (http://www.arthritis-glucosamine.net/arthritis/shark-cartilage-arthritis.html) and partly because of it's reserach in helping cancer patience (http://www.thenutritionreporter.com/cartilage_controversy.html) as my family is at high risk of cancer. But I am becoming overly concerned about the environemntal effects to this. I keep seeing websites like this: http://www.healthwatcher.net/Quackerywatch/Shark-cartilage/ and while you shouldn't believe everything you read on the Internet, it has caused some concern in me. So I'm thinking of trying a Glucosomine/MSM formula. What supplements do you take?

Toby
05-11-2004, 07:54 PM
I can't help because I only rowed bow side :D. Seriously though, why do you want the knee wraps? Aren't they just trying to mask the symptoms as opposed to treating the cause? If you are feeling pain, your body is telling you something - don't do it. I'm sure your teacher will understand you have peculiarities that make it difficult. Try a higher horse stance while you sort out the knee problems. In the meantime find a good sports doctor or physical therapist who can offer ways to fix your knee. I'm lucky in that a new sports doc has set up office 4 doors down from my house. In one week he's made a dramatic difference to my problems because he's more interested in therapy than my previous doctor who was more interested in diagnosis.

Braces? Don't like them unless they're necessary. Maybe I'm wrong here, but e.g. for weightlifting (which a lot of us here do) I don't like belts, wraps, gloves, etc. It just makes that part of your body weaker. E.g. for squats, many people wear belts to provide low back and abdominal support. Why not just strengthen the lower back and abdomen to provide the support? Same for you - work on your knees being the weak link. You look like you probably have very strong thighs so you need to make sure your knees can transmit your power to the lower leg effectively rather than rely on wraps to do it.

What supplements do I take? Well, I've got a form of osteoarthritis in my shoulder. I take calcium and fish oil for it. Calcium for calcium ;) and fish oil for anti-inflammatory properties and because my teacher told me it's a TCM principle to take the two together - makes the calcium absorb better apparently. Never took glucosamine or shark cartilage so I can't help with those.

Green_Tea
05-12-2004, 06:46 AM
That's an interesting way to look at things, never thought about it that way. I guess I feel like I'm not pushing myself hard enough if I don't go low (I know that's silly...) they don't hurt all the time, just some of the time. I thought maybe I needed support... could be my big stupid thighs *lol* I sware, those thighs of mine are good for nothing, they aren't even that strong. (Speaking of which, do you know any ways of making them smaller? Someone told me running will lean them out but so far it hasn't worked for me yet, though maybe I'm not running enough, right now I just go on a 30 minute run once a week...)

Sports doctors... hmmm, I can't say I have ever had a good experience with them. They liked to tell me when I was or wasn't hurting. And it never seemed to help. I told one doctor the medicine he perscribed me was making me hurt more and he said, "Oh no it's not!" But I suppose I should go back to my acupunturist. It's been a while. Though one of my fellow "kung- fuers" is one, I guess I could get her to work on me since it'd be easier to communicate to her when I'm feeling pain since she's doing the same moves... just got to get out of this state of mind where I can drop $100 on my husband to help pay for his new synthesizer but have a moral crisis if I want to go to the doctor and still have to pay my $20 copayment ;).

Thanks for the suggestions, I will think about them more. BTW, what kind of fish oils are you taking?

Toby
05-12-2004, 07:23 PM
Why do you want your thighs smaller? I would kill for thighs like that, although I'm a tall guy with chicken legs. Smaller? (a) heavy weight, low reps compound exercises (like squats, deadlift) or (b) low weight very long time endurance stuff (like marathon, long distance bike). Not middle weight middle time interval. Of course I'm very much simplifying things there. Rowing may fit into the (b) category if you go easy for 10km+ rows. No 500m sprints etc. If you sprint, do < 20s at a time.

Fish oil I take is called "Fish oil capsules" :D. It's an Oz brand - forget what the company is. But all should be similar i.e. taken from (in general) cold water, oily fish. E.g. I used to take cod liver oil but take these because they come in a bigger bottle of 1000 capsules for AUD$20.

Sports docs? As I said, my last one sucked, like you said. My new one is more interested in physical therapy and knows his stuff - that's what you want, a therapist. Plus he listens, which is of utmost importance. If your problem was muscular, then I might be able to help with some knee strengthening stuff but since it's structural I won't. Interesting aside - Australian Rules football (AFL) players typically develop big thighs in the off season with weights etc. The knee is the weak link. Increasingly they suffer cruciate ligament damage. 20-30yrs ago this was nowhere near as much of a problem since emphasis was on skill rather than strength.

About the pain thing - I kind of mislead you. I don't think you should always listen to pain. You can ignore it if you know why it's occurring and what it's signalling. If you think that you can deal with the pain and it's not causing more problems, then that's probably OK. Usual disclaimers apply. The problem with horse stance is that it not only loads up your knees, but it also pushes your alignment. You'd be told to push your knees out, keep your knees behind your toes, tuck your butt under, back straight, right? In other words, open your pelvis. That's gunna push your knee alignment. Not only do you have vertical loading, but lateral and probably rotational as well. I might be worried about what that would do to your particular knee, which is why I suggested high horse for a while while you try to fix the problem.

Green_Tea
05-12-2004, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by Toby
Why do you want your thighs smaller? I would kill for thighs like that, although I'm a tall guy with chicken legs.

So I can fit into pants *lol*. I know that sounds girly and stupid, but it's something I've been trying to combat for a long time. When I can finally get pants passed my thighs (around a size 10) they are falling off my waist like a wet towel (need about a size 6 there). So wearing a size 10 makes me feel fat and blah and- I won't get into it. I know it's stupid but it still affects me and that frustrates me. It seems like big thighs works for guys. But NOT for girls. I'm always staring at girls legs coveting the thin ones. **** German genes ;).


Originally posted by Toby
Smaller? (a) heavy weight, low reps compound exercises (like squats, deadlift).

****, I wonder what I was doing wrong, those made them WORSE. Maybe they were the low rep ones. Okay, normally I go for just a half an hour run but I guess I should go for a longer one for more endurance. What time do you suggest and how many days a week? I'll take my stop watch with me:).


Originally posted by Toby
I used to take cod liver oil but take these because they come in a bigger bottle of 1000 capsules for AUD$20.

Oh cool, cod liver oil is occasionally what I take.


Originally posted by Toby
I might be worried about what that would do to your particular knee, which is why I suggested high horse for a while while you try to fix the problem.

Okay, I see. I wonder if part of my issue might be my tight hamstrings, just tugging at everything. If I angle my feet with my toes out, I am fine in my riding horse stance. But I know that's wrong form and I had supposed to be "bad on your knees". Go figure *lol*.

Thanks for all your good advice! I gave my co- kung fuer my insurance info so she's going to see if she can cut me a deal and I'll go see her (acupunture) for the knees.

Toby
05-13-2004, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by Green_Tea
So I can fit into pants *lol*. I know that sounds girly and stupid ... But you're a girl - you're allowed to be girly and stupid :D.


Originally posted by Green_Tea
****, I wonder what I was doing wrong, those made them WORSE.By low reps I mean both low reps per set and low reps in total. Like sets of 1-6 reps and not many of them. Try not to go to failure. Not sets of 10-20 reps - that'll build your legs nicely, especially with squats. What you want is increased lean muscle and decreased fat. Specifically increased myofibrillar density vs sarcoplasmic "bloat". Good recent thread (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29981&pagenumber=2). See below for decreasing fat. However, even with maximal muscular density and minimal fat with your build you'll probably always be like Xena Warrior Princess as opposed to Gwyneth Paltrow. I know which one I'd rather be ;).


Originally posted by Green_Tea
Okay, normally I go for just a half an hour run but I guess I should go for a longer one for more endurance. What time do you suggest and how many days a week? I'll take my stop watch with me:).Endurance isn't my thing. For my "endurance" I do HIIT (http://www.trainforstrength.com/Endurance1.shtml). But look at those skinny-ass marathon runners, triathletes, etc. Very long time interval (> 1-2hrs?) stuff does that to you - puts you into a state of temporary ketosis I believe. Like I said, not my thing. However, if you want to do HIIT, do it 3+ times a week. Anecdotal evidence suggests high levels of fat burning. Short workouts, easy. (You won't be saying easy when you get up to the 20/10 phases). Also, obviously, diet is of paramount importance. Bear in mind that you can't "spot reduce" your thighs. Fat loss will be overall so your goal of smaller thighs would lead to smaller everything. That's the price you pay.


Originally posted by Green_Tea
Okay, I see. I wonder if part of my issue might be my tight hamstrings, just tugging at everything. If I angle my feet with my toes out, I am fine in my riding horse stance. But I know that's wrong form and I had supposed to be "bad on your knees". Go figure *lol*.Ironically, feet out is best for your knees. No rotational force. Check out powerlifters' squats. Their feet are angled outwards when they stand wide. Makes sense - your feet are pointed in a different direction to the rest of your leg when they're pointed straight ahead. What sort of force does that put on your leg? Rotational. I don't think tight hamstrings are the issue here.


Originally posted by Green_Tea
Thanks for all your good advice! I gave my co- kung fuer my insurance info so she's going to see if she can cut me a deal and I'll go see her (acupunture) for the knees. No problem. Surprised no-one else has chimed in yet. BTW, what's the acupuncture for? Pain? Or cartilage rebuild. Just interested (I'm a skeptic ;)).

Green_Tea
05-13-2004, 10:06 AM
Ah, so after reading the thread you linked me to, I'm thinking my thighs are more the product of "Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy" :). And hey, you're right, whenever I think of runners they are pretty slim. I will try an hour run next Sunday when I do my run. I'm never sore and while I'm a little tired, it's not like I'm about to fall over so I guess it couldn't hurt to step it up a little.

The other site you linked to said:
H.I.I.T.: High Intensity Interval Training, for example Sprinting as fast as possible resting briefly and repeating.

I remember doing those up hill in crew practice. They were HARD! I think emotionally I prefer long distance running because it clears my mind and I can meditate while I do it. But I heard somewhere that the fiber length of the muscles in your legs determins if you'd be better at endurance running or sprinting. I don't know how you find that out exactly but I think it was shorter fibers= better sprinter. My brother was always the endurance runner and I always thought I'd be better at sprints (I guess because I'm so short and squat, like a wrestler ;)). But I dunno...

Also, I'm wondering why if while doing horse stances your feet are "supposed to" be angle out why we're told to angle them in. I'm sure there's some good reason for it. I'll ask at class on Friday and see why. Maybe it's something they do to the beginners to show them something? Like when my teachers go really slow through a movement to show me all the steps.

The acupunture would be more for pain. Remember when I talked about the sport's doctor? Well it was a knee/lower back problem (lower backs are another issue with rowers plus I had had a previous horse back riding injurt where I was thrown from my horse and fell onto the jump, kind of like what happened to Christopher Reeves but I wasn't hurt that bad). My back hurt so badly I couldn't even carry my purse on my shoulder or a tray of food in the cafeteria. My grandmother suggested I see an acupunturist because she said it helped her arthrits (sp?) in her hands. So I went it. What a difference! Instead of cold sterile walls there were fabric curtains, flowing water fountains... instead of an HOUR or more wait I was seen right away. Instead of (after waiting an hour) being seen for maybe 3 minutes, she spent a good hour with me, made me feel like I was her only patient that day. Instead of a snide doctor making me feel dumb she was sweet and super patient. Not only that but after one treatment I stood up, felt about 20 lbs. lighter and three inches taller. It helped me so much. In fact, thanks to her I was able to continue training and become one of my team's best rowers (not too shabby for someone that's only 5'5). But I'll let you know how it turns out. I have over the years gotten to be very skeptical of western medicine and believe more in eastern. Now of course if my arm ripped off I'd go to a western doctor, but y'know what I mean? As someone said, sometimes you have a western illness and you've got to fight it with western medicine but I will always try to do thing the alternative way.

fa_jing
05-13-2004, 07:42 PM
yeah, um, in the squat and horse knees go in the same direction as the toes (actually the second toe) for greatest comfort.

However, in the horse riding stance, turning the toes straight ahead can actually stretch the knees, which is good in my case ... since the outside of my knees are too tight, but it might be bad in someone else's case.

Green_Tea
05-17-2004, 03:50 AM
Okay, I asked two of my sihings about the feet pointed forward thing. They said it's part of the style of Northern kung fu. Some styles keep the toes out a little. They said this is partly to block the groin area. But, they said if it's hurting my knees, I could turn my toes out a little. I guess I also have a bad habit of bringing my knees in instead of keeping them out.

mickey
05-17-2004, 04:01 PM
Hello Green Tea,

Since no one is talking supplements, I recommend taking MSM. I suggest taking 3-4 1000 mg tablets a day. You may want to include bee pollen in your diet. Also increase water and vegetable intake to help flush crystals out of your system that can accumulate at the joints.

I don't know if you can get this, but try to get some beef tendon. Not all Chinese restaurants have this. It is hard on the palate but good on the joints.

mickey

Green_Tea
05-17-2004, 08:04 PM
Thanks Mickey!

I actually have some bee pollen in my fridge but I always forget to take it since it'snot out with my regualt viatmins *goes to take it now*. It's also funny that while I wasreading your recomendation for veggies I was eating a big plate of cucumbers. So I guess I'm on the right track... as far as the beef, we have a whole bunch of asian markets in the area but when it comes to meat I'll only eat the organic kind. I can check Whole Foods and Chamberlains and see if either of those places carry it. Maybe Fresh Market? Thanks!