PDA

View Full Version : Fighting in the mount?



nickle
05-25-2001, 10:14 PM
when someone sits on your chest, and squeezes your ribs with their knees, and starts to pound away at your face, is there REALLY anything you can do? according to the ufc's no ... lol... any responses will be welcome...

-specialization is for ants-

mikey
05-25-2001, 10:40 PM
are your arms inside or outside of the legs?
this might not sound ethical or pleasant,
but if your arms are outside of the legs,you might
try grabbing a handful of his "equipment" and attempt to rip it off.
if your hands are inside of the knees,an impromtu
and highly invasive prostate exam with the thumb
will get his attention as well.either will give
you an opportunity to throw him off of you.
if he is on your chest,with his knees pinning your arms,he will actually act as a brace which
will allow you to bring your legs up to drive a knee into his back,or move your legs to one side to provide a lever to throw him off, or at least free an arm or two.you could also consider biting
the aformentioned equipment.
remember,there's no such thing as a fair fight,
and that if you ain't cheatin',you ain't tryin' :D

ATENG
05-26-2001, 12:01 AM
"if you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin"...wahahahaha :D

---------------------
Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

Watchman
05-26-2001, 05:32 AM
If you're unlucky to find yourself mounted, and using Wing Chun, do this:

Use double jum sau to press your elbows into his thighs while you simultaneously presse off of your feet to scoot your body up to get his hips over yours and gain some space to prevent getting hit (to hit with power the guy has to be "sitting up" to rain the blows down).

With that giving you some very short-term operating space, use your legs to drive your hips upward to make his center of gravity shift forward toward your head, making him post his arm/s and/or grab onto your to keep his position. It also helps to push one of knees down (sideward pak sau from SLT) and pin it to make him come forward when you lift your hips.

With at least one of arms posted and his weight shifted forward off of your hips, simultaneously use Biu Tze's double gan sau movement to pin one of his arms against your chest and Huen Bo (circling leg) to pin his ankle on the same side.

Now with one side of his body trapped, use your oposite leg to power your hips up as you tuck in and roll him off of you. Because his leg and arm are trapped on the side you're rolling him to he can't post his arm or leg to keep himself on top.

If he's not a trained grappler...slide up and pin him against the ground with your knee (Cho Jum Ma), and turn his face into kibble with your punches.

If he knows what he's doing once you roll him off, he'll more than likely try and wrap you with his legs to put you in either full or half guard. If you're smart and keep your "tuck" with your knees up, you can usually ballistically push yourself away with kicking motions using your shins. Once you're a leg's length away....GET ON YOUR FEET!

If he succeeds in trapping you in the guard, keep your arms relaxed so he has a hard time pinning them, and sit up a bit. Press a backward elbow (chamber position) into one of his knees while you lift your opposit leg up into a squat position. From here, reach back and shove an arm through the opening in his hooked ankles and curl your arm back toward your chest (Biu Tze gan sau). This should break his guard if you use your hips with the gan sau move for extra power.

Once his guard is broken this way, turn the arm you have his leg trapped over into a pai jarn position and shift your hips HARD to crank his leg over. This should get you out.

From here, stomp a mudhole into him for ever mounting you in the first place.


http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Sunt hic etiam sua praemia laveli
"Here too virtue has its due reward."

Watchman
05-26-2001, 05:41 AM
>>>but if your arms are outside of the legs,you might try grabbing a handful of his "equipment" and attempt to rip it off.<<<

Ever tried grabbing someone's equipment from that position? And YES it's a rhetorical question!!!!

If they know what they're doing they will probably flatten out when you try to "steal the peach" and start in with the elbows. Plus, how long do you think it'll take to do damage to him that way while he's tenderizing your face with his fists?

Groin grabs just aren't going to cut it.

mikey
05-26-2001, 05:59 AM
yep.it seemed to work rather quickly.
maybe I did it wrong.In all fairness,
I wasn't in a UFC death match with
some BJJ guy,and this was long before
I knew wing chun existed.
This experience occurred in one of many
schoolyard fights,which frequently wound
up with one person"mounted" on the other,
punching the "mounted" person in the face.
my technique,which i must confess was not
derived from any of the empty hand Wing Chun
forms,had the benefit of getting me out of a bind
long enough to use their face for a soccer ball.
there is an old saying:
if it's stupid,but it works,it's not stupid. ;)

Watchman
05-26-2001, 07:42 AM
>>>if it's stupid,but it works,it's not stupid.<<<

Amen, brother!

Armin
05-26-2001, 09:40 AM
Hi Mikey!

You're d@mn true!!! You know the KISS-principle? Keep It Simple And Stupid!

Works nearly every time.


Armin.

Grappling-Insanity
05-27-2001, 07:56 AM
Lets just say if u grabbed my "package" you would eat like 4 elbows, then I would snap your arm. I dont like it when ppl touch me there...

mikey
05-27-2001, 04:42 PM
maybe you just haven't met the right person.

Vankuen
05-27-2001, 06:27 PM
And oddly enough, thats the exact same thing that most BJJ'ers will tell you to do as well, minus the wing chun terminology.

Styles put aside, theres only so many things one can do, and what watchman said is really the most efficient. The only thing you have to watch out for is the timing, if the guys already using your head as a basketball, its hard to start your schimmy up, because you will have to cover your head as to not get hit, and that will then eliminate the seung jaam sau into the the thighs to help the sliding up.

Just my two cents

"From one thing know ten thousand" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

mikey
05-28-2001, 03:52 AM
you're probably right.The fact is,
I've received about 4 years of formal
Wing Chun training.I would go to class
5-6 times a week.Sure,we covered practical
responses to all the usual suspects(karate,
kickboxing,barroom brawlers,TKD,drunk uncles,etc.)
we even worked on stationary and running tackles,
full and half nelsons,head locks,bear hugs,etc.
But never has the subject of dealing with "grapplers" in their element (on the ground)
been addressed. I suspect that many Wing Chun
schools fail to address this.I have heard,and
can logically deduce from what I have read in this forum that some Wing Chun schools have worked on contingencies for such fights.Where
do I find out more about it? I have been fortunate,I guess,that I have never been mugged
by a roving band of malevolent Brazilian JiuJitsu
enthusiasts.The closest I have come is a couple
of scraps with either wrestlers or jerks(or both!) who really had no more "grappling"
training than me.I suspect that unless I sign
up to fight in some "no holds barred" match,the
odds of my having to fight a well trained grappler
are pretty small.However, I recognize that however
small the possibility I will find myself in this situation,there is still a need to train for it.
Who in the Wing Chun world trains for this,and how?help straighten me out!
I'm looking at you,Watchman.
Enlighten me!

:)

old jong
05-28-2001, 04:07 AM
Well,can anybody honestly be prepared for any situation?...If your teacher says yes,he's probably a bjj guy! :D...Seriously,we all do our best and hope that we won't get run over by a bus or something! :eek:Get the idea?...Nobody is perfect or unbeatable!...Even them! ;)

C'est la vie!

Grappling-Insanity
05-28-2001, 07:42 AM
I MEANT MALES JACK@$$!!!! LoL jk it made me laugh :p

tnwingtsun
05-28-2001, 12:10 PM
#3-#8 OF MAR*****O'S TEN COMMANDMENTS

I SHALL PUNISH THY BODIES BECAUSE THE MORE THOU SWEATEST IN TRAINING,THE LESS THOU BLEEDEST IN COMBAT.

INDEED,IF THOU HURTETH IN THY EFFORTS AND THOU SUFFER PAINFUL DINGS,THEN THOU ART DOING IT RIGHT.

THOU HAST NOT TO LIKE IT--THOU JUST HAST TO DO IT.

THOU SHALL KEEP IT SIMPLE,STUPID.

THOU SHALL NEVER ASSUME.

VERILY,THOU AT NOT PAID FOR THY METHODS,BUT THY RESULTS,BY WHICH MEANETH THOU SHALT KILL THINE ENEMY BY ANY MEANS AVAILABLE BEFORE HE KILLETH YOU

Das right ATENG,cheat your frigging arse off!!

This ain't no game show!!


PS-Grappling-Insanity and Mikey
ROTFLMAO!!!!

rogue
05-28-2001, 02:33 PM
G-I, you mean you haven't met the right male? Or something else? ;)

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

Watchman
05-28-2001, 07:52 PM
Hey Vankuen! How have you been?

>>>thats the exact same thing that most BJJ'ers will tell you to do as well, minus the wing chun terminology.<<<

Yup, you're right...and I didn't even realize it until Ryu posted a mount escape sequence on the main forum. If you understand the principles of body movement and of the environment you're in, you'll come up with the most efficient way.

I think the biggest difference between the two is the fact that since Wing Chun is NOT a grappling art (big revelation there!), my goal is to look for windows of opportunity to escape the position to continue the fight - NOT to try for submissions, or to stay in the ground environment.

>>>Styles put aside, theres only so many things one can do<<<

Exactly! The mount in and of itself is meant to be a dominant, fight-ending position. There is no "quick", or "magic", solution to get out. Pat answers like groin grabs, hair pulling, eye-gouging, and such can't be a guarantee.

>>>The only thing you have to watch out for is the timing, if the guys already using your head as a basketball, its hard to start your schimmy up, because you will have to cover your head as to not get hit, and that will then eliminate the seung jaam sau into the the thighs to help the sliding up.<<<

You're right on that point. If they are in full ground and pound effect, sticking your elbows down into their thighs will get your teeth knocked out. I've found that shoving one hand down into their knee while bridging up to make their hips come forward while I use the other arm to cover helps disrupt the rain of blows so I can start looking for my escape.

>>>Who in the Wing Chun world trains for this,and how?help straighten me out!
I'm looking at you,Watchman.<<<

Mikey: I'm not too familiar with other Wing Chun schools or lineages outside of what I see in magazines, but ground escapes have always been a part of what my sifu has taught us ever since I started training under him in 1992 (before I ever heard of a Gracie or knew what the terms "guard" and "post" meant). My sifu felt that reality dictated that no fighter is perfect, and there is an eventuality you may find yourself in a supine position so it was a good idea to train to get yourself out of it.

It's really all in the approach. Since Wing Chun is not a grappling art, there is no way you can predict all of the different positiong, locking, and submission opportunites that a grappler may or not have (unless you took up a grappling art). What sets Wing Chun apart is it's heavy counter-grappling component, meaning it's unique flexibility and principles of movement.

The biggest mistakes that most non-grappling trained fighters make is giving up a position that allows the grappler to sink in his moves. The key is in utilizing the principle of "Face the Form", meaning you never give up your center, on your feet OR on the ground. You need to continually rotate toward them every time they move and use your feet to shove your hips out along the ground the get them to shift weight so you can find your doorway out. Continual movement always.

As far as my personal training goes...no, I have yet to have the opportunity to toe to toe with a really seasoned,experienced BJJ player. We have invited the local BJJ club over to play, but they haven't worked up the motivation yet. I have made a couple of aquantainced in the local university wrestling team, and have taken the mat with them on a few occasions working escapes from clinches, takedown attempts, and the mount. Mount escapes ain't easy.


http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Sunt hic etiam sua praemia laveli
"Here too virtue has its due reward."