American Beheaded on AlQueda website

[CaptinPickAxe]

Its on CNN. Its really fuct up when you think abou it. Especially for his family.

[ZIM]

I just saw that on the News as well.

:mad: Animals.

Quick, lets give them what they want! :rolleyes:

"Nick Berg, 26, who was beheaded in Iraq, by an al-Qaida affiliated group, had traveled several times to Third World countries to help spread technology, his family said. He had previously traveled to Ghana, where they said he had purchased a $900 brick-making press for a poor village, the family said.

The video showed Nick Berg, 26, in a staged execution carried out by an al-Qaida affiliated group. The video said the killing was to avenge the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers.

“My name is Nick Berg, my father’s name is Michael, my mother’s name is Suzanne,” the man said on the video before being killed. “I have a brother and sister, David and Sara. I live in … Philadelphia.”link (http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/NewsArchive/artikel.php?ID=57581)

[ZIM]

Translation of the Arabic cr@p the killer read out in the vid:


"Nation of Islam. Tidings of dawn and winds of victory have begun for God has honored us with roaring victory in Falluja.

"Nation of Islam. Is there any excuse left to sit idly by? And how can free Muslims sleep soundly as they see Islam being slaughtered, honor bleeding, photographs of shame and reports of Satanic degradation of the people of Islam, men and women, in Abu Ghraib prison?

"Where is the care, fervor and rage for the faith of God, where is the concern for the sanctities of Muslims and where is the revenge for the honor of Muslims in the crusader prisons?

"As for you Islamic scholars, you will answer to God. Do you not see ... the Muslim youth who humiliated the greatest power in history, cut off its nose and shattered its arrogance.

"Do you not see that it is time for you to learn from them the meanings of responsibility and sacrifice. Until when shall you remain like women, excelling only in ... wailing and crying?

"One person pleads with the free of the world, another with (U.N. Secretary-General) Kofi Annan, a third asks for help from (Arab League Secretary-General) Amr Moussa and a fourth calls for peaceful demonstrations as if they never heard God's order for the Prophet (Mohammad) to rally the faithful to fight.

"Have you not had your fill of the war of conferences and battle of words? Is it not time for you to take the path of jihad and carry the sword of the Prophet of prophets? We ask you not to condemn what we will do just to please the Americans.

"The Prophet, the most merciful, ordered (his army) to strike the necks of some prisoners in Badr (battle) and to kill them ... And he set a good example for us.

"As for you Bush, dog of the Christians, anticipate what will harm you and difficult days. You and your soldiers will regret the day you stepped foot in Iraq and dared to violate Muslims.

"A message to the traitorous agent (Pakistani President) Pervez Musharraf: We tell him that we wait eagerly to receive your soldiers and, by God, we will demand them before the Americans and avenge the blood of our brothers in (Afghanistan).

"As for you, mothers and wives of American soldiers, we tell you that we offered the American administration to exchange this prisoner for some prisoners in Abu Ghraib, but they refused.

"We tell you that the honor of Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and other (prisons) are more noble than blood and lives.

"And you will only get shroud after shroud and coffin after coffin slaughtered in this manner."

Translation in short: "C'mon, this is what Islam requires..."

The vid, btw, is probably one of the most disturbing things you will ever see. NOT recommended for sensitive souls.

Uh...Nick didn't die clean or fast.

[jun_erh]

thank you al queda for getting us off the hook in terms of the abu graib stuff. you've proved that you are much worse.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Abu Garib is a horrible situation and the perpetrators deserved to be punished. They say they were told to do it, but you can't fake a smile like the one England wore in all the pictures.

[jun_erh]

"We were winning international sympathy because of what happened at Abu Ghraib, but they come and waste it all," Sahar said of the Islamic militants responsible.

Does THAT sound familiar?

[CaptinPickAxe]

no

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

To be honest the Abu Ghraib & Berg incidens are shocking but not unexpected.

Abu Ghraib appears to me were vague orders given to untrained soldiers but no control over their execution was done, thus things spiraled out of control.
What we have seen so far is exactly what would hit muslims the hardest, and I doubt that a few reserve MP's would come up with those. Also some of the techniques used were/are used by a variety of countries during interrogation.

News reports say that the new material that was recently reviewed by congress contain even worse offenses and again I am not surprised.

In order to understand what the soldiers & Iraqi's go through right now I find 2 lessons I had to learn in school very helpful:
Zimbardo 1971: Stanford Prison Experiment
Ron Jones 1972: Palo Alto "The Wave/The Third Wave" experiment.

Both are compuslory study materials in a few countries(not sure about the US).
Good material and I think evertbody should know about them and other similar experiments that were done.

Cheers.

[CaptinPickAxe]

TaiJi Monkey hit the nail on the head.
I think Nic's murder is getting so much play here in the states so it takes some of the light off of our crimes in Iraq. I promise that Abu Garib is just the thin candy shell of the things that happen in Iraq. War truely is Hell.

I've read about the two experiments. Its an interesting read. It talks about normal (sympathetic even) people put in front of a switch that is "administers an electric shock to a person in another room." They had a person playing a doctor who told them to turn up the switch. He told them to turn it past a marker that said "DANGER: High Voltage!!!" most people did and some even laughed at an actors screams in the next room.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
I think Nic's murder is getting so much play here in the states so it takes some of the light off of our crimes in Iraq.

Yeah, because a globally distributed video of a young man systematically chosen to introduce himself, name his family, then have his head sawed off with a knife isn't that big a deal.

...

:confused: :confused: :eek: :confused: :confused:

[chen zhen]

i feel sorry for him.. but at least they didnt strip him naked, dress him in women's panties and masturbate on his face.
u know, like the americans did to the iraqis in abu ghraib.

[Christopher M]

You sincerely believe that war criminals being naked is worse than a civilian having his head sawed off?

:confused:

[jun_erh]

they didn't humiliate those abu graib terrorist prisoners enough. They were trying to get information to save peoples lives, americans and iraqis. People say the US is worse than Saddam no Militant Islam is worse than Saddam.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Its truely guesome, CM. But don't think the press should be exploiting it the way they are for 3 reasons:

1.Stress on the victims family
2.Its unnessecary
3.It exploits his death to give Americans a renewed vigor in the war against terrorism.

Don't get me wrong, CM. Its a ****ed up situation and completely wrong. However, I think there is something more to the topic since its on CNN 24 hours a day.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Christopher M
You sincerely believe that war criminals being naked is worse than a civilian having his head sawed off?

:confused:

For a devout Muslim it can be, most of them were/are also CIVILIANS. We got many interviews with ex-prisoners over here that said they prefer to be torured under saddam to the US treatment, why because Saddam still treated them as MEN.

Also the prisoners were threatened that those photos would be send to their families and friends if they did not coorperate.

[Christopher M]

I'm sorry, I meant that to be rhetorical:

Citizens being beheaded is categorically worse than POWs being naked.

That the converse is actually being entertained as reasonable makes me doubt people's sincerity and/or sanity.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Its cultrual.
Some muslim men would choose death over humiliation. At least they would die with dignity. I personally would be damaged for my entire life if I had another man's ***** even touch me in a sexual way. Your right, though. Beheading is much more harsh than simulated rape.

[jun_erh]

tjm- the interview I read was one prisoner and he said he wanted to live in the United States. that's how much he hates us.

and it was prececly because they were so called devout muslims that this tactic was used. They kill their own daughters for the crime of being rapred. they love death so it's not practical to scare them with it.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by jun_erh
tjm- the interview I read was one prisoner and he said he wanted to live in the United States. that's how much he hates us.

We had interviews with about 5 or 6 guys over here, some who said they were in those released pictures.
No mention anywhere of them wanting to live in the US, most of them didn't hold too high an opinion of the US after their experiences.

I agree that it was the most effective method to hit them, one reason why I believe that the orders to do those things came from higher up.

[jun_erh]

"When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives." Surat Mohammed:4


tjm- hard to say which prisoners were telling the truth. are you in Europe. Good luck with your civil war your eventually going to have to have against Islam.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by jun_erh
tjm- hard to say which prisoners were telling the truth. are you in Europe. Good luck with your civil war your eventually going to have to have against Islam.

Don't worry we have been having run-ins with them for the last 1000 years, thanks to the crusades.
:(

BTW, the Middle Eastern population in Europe is bigger than you think, many of them helped us rebuild after WW II and stayed on. Even now most of our migrant workers come from there.

[jun_erh]

from iraq the model weblog

Saturday, May 08, 2004

Abu Gharib, other parts of the picture.
Yesterday a friend of mine, who’s also a doctor, visited us. After chatting about old memories, I asked him about his opinions on the current situations in Iraq. I’ve always known this friend to be apathetic when it comes to politics, even if it means what’s happening in Iraq. It was obvious that he hadn’t change and didn’t show any interest in going deep into this conversation. However when I asked him about his opinion on GWB response to the prisoners’ abuse issue, I was surprised to see him show anger and disgust as he said:

- This whole thing makes me sick.

- Why is that?! I asked.

- These thugs are treated much better than what they really deserve!

- What are you saying!? You can’t possibly think that this didn’t happen! And they’re still human beings, and there could be some innocents among them.

- Of course it happened, and I’m not talking about all the prisoners nor do I support these actions, and there could be some innocents among them, but I doubt it.

- Then why do you say such a thing?

- Because these events have taken more attention than they should.

- I agree but there should be an investigation on this. There are other pictures that were shown lately, and there are talks about others that will be shown in the near future.

- Yes, but what happened cannot represent more than 1% of the truth.

- Oh I really hope there would be no more than that.

- No, that’s not what I meant. What I’m saying is that these events are the exception and not the rule.
- How do you know that!? I must say I agree with your presumption, but I don’t have a proof, and I never thought you’d be interested in such issue!

- I was there for a whole month!

- In Abu-Gharib!? What were you doing there!?

- It was part of my training! Did you forget that!? I know you skipped that at Saddam’s time, but how could you forget that?

- Yes, but I thought that with the American troops there, the system must have been changed.

-No it’s still the same. We still have to do a month there.

-So tell me what did you see there? How’s the situation of the prisoners? Did you see any abuse? Do they get proper medical care? (I was excited to see someone who was actually there, and he was a friend!)

- Hey, slow down! I’ll tell you what I know. First of all, the prisoners are divided into two groups; the ordinary criminals and the political ones. I used to visit the ordinary criminals during every shift, and after that, the guards would bring anyone who has a complaint to me at the prison’s hospital.
- What about the 'political' ones?

- I’m not allowed to go to their camps, but when one of them feels ill, the guards bring him to me.

- Are the guards all Americans?

- No, the American soldiers with the IP watch over and take care of the ordinary criminals, but no one except the Americans is allowed to get near the political ones

- How are the medical supplies in the prison?

- Not very great, but certainly better from what it was on Saddam’s times. However my work is mainly at night, but in the morning the supplies are usually better.

- How many doctors, beside you, were there?

- There was an American doctor, who’s always their (His name is Eric, a very nice guy, he and I became friends very fast), and other Iraqi doctors with whom I shared the work, and in the morning, there are always some Iraqi senior doctors; surgeons, physicians…etc.

-Why do you say they are very well treated?

- They are fed much better than they get at their homes. I mean they eat the same stuff we eat, and it’s pretty good; eggs, cheese, milk and tea, meat, bread and vegetables, everything! And that happened every day, and a good quality too.

-Are they allowed to smoke? (I asked this because at Saddam’s times, it was a crime to smoke in prison and anyone caught while doing this would be punished severely).

- Yes, but they are given only two cigarettes every day.

- What else? How often are they allowed to take a bath? (This may sound strange to some people, but my friend understood my question. We knew from those who spent sometime in Saddam’s prisons, and survived, that they were allowed to take a shower only once every 2-3 weeks.)

- Anytime they want! There are bathrooms next to each hall.

- Is it the same with the 'political' prisoners?

- I never went there, but I suppose it’s the same because they were always clean when they came to the hospital, and their clothes were always clean too.

-How often do they shave? (I remember a friend who spent 45 days in prison at Saddam’s times had told me that the guards would inspect their beards every day to see if they were shaved properly, and those who were not, would be punished according to the guards’ mood. He also told me that they were of course not allowed to have any shaving razors or machines and would face an even worse punishment in case they found some of these on one of the prisoners. So basically all the prisoners had to smuggle razors, which cost a lot, shave in secrecy and then get rid of the razor immediately! That friend wasn’t even a political prisoner; he was arrested for having a satellite receiver dish in his house!)

- I’m not sure, from what I saw, it seemed that there was a barber visiting them frequently, because they had different hair cuts, some of them shaved their beards others kept them or left what was on their chins only. I mean it seemed that they had the haircut they desired!

-Yes but what about the way they are treated? And how did you find American soldiers in general?

- I’ll tell you about that; first let me tell you that I was surprised with their politeness. Whenever they come to the hospital, they would take of their helmets and show great respect and they either call me Sir or doctor. As for the way they treat the prisoners, they never handcuff anyone of those, political or else, when they bring them for examination and treatment unless I ask them to do so if I know that a particular prisoner is aggressive, and I never saw them beat a prisoner and rarely did one of them use an offensive language with a prisoner.

One of those times, a member of the American MP brought one of the prisoners, who was complaining from a headache, but when I tried to take history from him he said to me “doctor, I had a problem with my partner (he was a ****sexual) I’m not Ok and I need a morphine or at least a valium injection” when I told him I can’t do that, he was outraged, swore at me and at the Americans and threatened me. I told the soldier about that, and he said “Ok Sir, just please translate to him what I’m going to say”. I agreed and he said to him “I want you to apologize to the doctor and I want your word as a man that you’ll behave and will never say such things again” and the convict told him he has his word!!

Another incidence I remember was when one of the soldiers brought a young prisoner to the hospital. The boy needed admission but the soldier said he’s not comfortable with leaving the young boy (he was about 18) with those old criminals and wanted to keep him in the isolation room to protect him. I told him that this is not allowed according to the Red Cross regulations. He turned around and saw the paramedics’ room and asked me if he can keep him there, and I told him I couldn’t. The soldier turned to a locked door and asked me about it. I said to him “It’s an extra ward that is almost deserted but I don’t have the keys, as the director of the hospital keeps them with him”. The soldier grew restless, and then he brought some tools, broke that door, fixed it, put a new lock, put the boy inside and then locked the door and gave me the key!

- Did you witness any aggressiveness from American soldiers?

- Only once. There was a guy who is a troublemaker. He was abnormally aggressive and hated Americans so much. One of those days the soldiers were delivering lunch and he took the soup pot that was still hot and threw it at one of the guards. The guard avoided it and the other guards caught the convict and one of them used an irritant spray that causes sever itching, and then they brought the prisoner to me to treat him.

- So you think that these events are isolated?

-As far as I know and from what I’ve seen, I’m sure that they are isolated.

-But couldn’t it be true that there were abusive actions at those times that the prisoners were afraid to tell you about?

-Are you serious!? These criminals, and I mean both types tell me all about there 'adventures and bravery'. Some of them told me how they killed an American soldier or burned a humvee, and in their circumstances this equals a confession! Do you think they would’ve been abused and remained silent and not tell me at least!? No, I don’t think any of this happened during the time I was there. It seemed that this happened to a very small group of whom I met no one during that month.

- Can you tell me anything about those 'political' prisoners? Are they Islamists, Ba’athists or what?

- Islamists?? I don't care what they call themselves, but they are thugs, they swear all the time, and most of them are addicts or ****sexuals or both. Still very few of them looked educated.

[jun_erh]

- Ah, that makes them close to Ba’athists. Do you think there are innocents among them?

- There could be. Some of them say they are and others boast in front of me, as I said, telling the crimes they committed in details. Of course I’m not naive enough to blindly believe either.

- Are they allowed to get outside, and how often? Do they have fans or air coolers inside their halls?

- Of course they are! Even you still compare this to what it used to be at Saddam’s times and there’s absolutely no comparison. They play volleyball or basketball everyday, and they have fans in their halls.

- Do they have sport suits?

- No, it’s much better than Saddam’s days but it’s still a prison and not the Sheraton. They use the same clothes but I’ve seen them wearing train shoes when they play.

-Are they allowed to read?

- Yes, I’ve seen the ordinary criminals read, and I believe the political are allowed too, because I remember one of them asking me to tell one of the American soldiers that he wanted his book that one of the soldiers had borrowed from him.

- So, you believe there’s a lot of clamor here?

-As you said these things are unaccepted but I’m sure that they are isolated and they are just very few exceptions that need to be dealt with, but definitely not the rule. The rule is kindness, care and respect that most of these thugs don’t deserve, and that I have seen by my own eyes. However I still don't understand why did this happen.

-I agree with you, only it’s not about the criminals, it’s about the few innocents who could suffer without any guilt and it’s about us; those who try to build a new Iraq. We can’t allow ourselves to be like them and we can’t go back to those dark times.
As for "why"; I must say that these few exceptions happen everywhere, only in good society they can be exposed and dealt with fast, while in corrupted regimes, it may take decades for such atrocities to be exposed which encourage the evil people to go on, and exceptions become the rule.

What happened in Abu-Gharib should be a lesson for us, Iraqis, above all. It showed how justice functions in a democratic society. We should study this lesson carefully, since sooner or later we'll be left alone and it will be our responsibility to deal with such atrocities, as these will never cease to happen.

-By Ali.