Can't wait till we catch these ****ers.

[rogue]

Getting sodomized with a glow light will be the least of their problems.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6172.htm

[SevenStar]

link doesn't work - account suspended...

[joedoe]

I suspect you are talking about the beheading of a US citizen in Iraq? Nasty stuff.

[PHILBERT]

Some ******* I know e-mailed me the video, I didn't know what it was at first, then it quickly jumped to the big part. I seriously had to try and hold my dinner in my stomach.

[joedoe]

A colleague of mine mentioned he wanted to see it. Personally I don't have any desire to see a man die, particularly in such a sad and horrible manner.

[PHILBERT]

It got to me, but I know that it would of been worst if I didn't see something similar before. My friend Sam called me one night, crying and freaking out, cause her stupid ass friend Robbie (who I'd like to smack) told her to download a video, but she didn't know what it was. She told me it was about a Russian solider but couldn't finish. So I got on KaZaA and did a search, found the video and watched it. I had heard about it before, but had no desire to watch it, and only watched it cause Sam needed someone to talk to about it. I knew from the second I saw it, it was real. It took me 15 minutes to convince her it was fake, and then I went to go throw up.

[CaptinPickAxe]

I haven't seen the video nor do I have the desire to see it. But to think that Beheading a civilian is equal to humiliating suspected terrorist is horrible. Don't get me wrong, by no means do I condone the actions of the perpitrators of the Iraqi prison abuses. It sickens me to think that such religious and political zealots can take god's name in vain by using it WHILE SAWING OFF A MANS HEAD! I hope justice catches up to those men, and I hope their persecution is twice as unjust as the man they killed.

EDIT: I take that back. I hope they live the rest of thier natural lives...in solitary confinement. I think the press is worse for exploiting Nic Berg's death. That's mostly what I saw today on CNN at work (I don't do much). The only thing else I saw was "Prison Abuse Scandal".

[cerebus]

"sawing"? :(

[Simon]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
It sickens me to think that such religious and political zealots can take god's name in vain by using it WHILE SAWING OFF A MANS HEAD! I hope justice catches up to those men, and I hope their persecution is twice as unjust as the man they killed.


what about the innocents in iraq killed in the name of "weapons of mass destruction" - not everyone in iraq are fundamentalist america haters. don't get me wrong both of the above cases are terrible but 1000s of people like you and me dying seems worse to me.

(not trying to get too controversial - just another side of the coin)

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Simon
what about the innocents in iraq killed in the name of "weapons of mass destruction"

They died 'in the name of' dismantling an intolerable regime, not WMD. You can verify Bush's reasoning on this matter by consulting his remarks (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/09/20030923-4.html) directly rather than relying on the media. And what about them? There is at least some pretense they died in a just cause, which is not the case here.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Christopher M

And what about them? There is at least some pretense they died in a just cause, which is not the case here.

I guess that that is a comfort to the remaining family members and too do those Iraqi's that ended up crippled or unable to pursue their jobs.

How many US-Soldiers were wounded(possible crippled) and what about their lifes and families? How many won't be able to go back to their old jobs and how will this affect their families?

Remember the old saying:
"Come back riding on your horse or on your shield".

It is easy to say "oh they died for a cause" and brush them off, when the real casualties of ANY war are not the fallen soldiers & civilians but the wounded/crippled ones and their families as well as the families of the fallen soldiers/civilians.

Anyhuh, not getting involved in this thread just wanted to throw something out there.

[Christopher M]

I didn't recommend brushing them off. I critiqued the juxtaposition between them and the beheading.

[Kristoffer]

Originally posted by PHILBERT
It got to me, but I know that it would of been worst if I didn't see something similar before. My friend Sam called me one night, crying and freaking out, cause her stupid ass friend Robbie (who I'd like to smack) told her to download a video, but she didn't know what it was. She told me it was about a Russian solider but couldn't finish. So I got on KaZaA and did a search, found the video and watched it. I had heard about it before, but had no desire to watch it, and only watched it cause Sam needed someone to talk to about it. I knew from the second I saw it, it was real. It took me 15 minutes to convince her it was fake, and then I went to go throw up.


I saw that too. Horrible ****... As for the Berg video, I don't want to see it. Why would anyone want to see that? The US soldiers torture scandal stirred up bigger waves than I thought it would.

[cerebus]

What's the video of the Russian soldier you mention? I don't think I've ever heard of it. :confused:

[CaptinPickAxe]

Don't get me wrong. I feel just as much sympathy for any innocents killed in war regardless of nationality.

[Kristoffer]

Originally posted by cerebus
What's the video of the Russian soldier you mention? I don't think I've ever heard of it. :confused:

It's either a russian soldier killed by tjetjians (sp?) or the other way around. A guy held down on the ground, then someone knife him in his throte and slowly cuts through. Disgusting

[scotty1]

Not good at all. :mad:

Being videoed whilst being murdered is something no-one should have to go through.

I hope the US soldiers who were (and possibly still are) abusing prisoners are taking notes of the consequences of their actions.

"But to think that Beheading a civilian is equal to humiliating suspected terrorist is horrible. "

I'm not disagreeing with you Captain, but the key word here is 'suspected'. To the people doing the beheading, they are not 'suspected terrorists' being beheaded, they are either innocent civilians or soldiers.

To us the two acts are incomparable, but not to everyone, which is the problem.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Christopher M


They died 'in the name of' dismantling an intolerable regime, not WMD. You can verify Bush's reasoning on this matter by consulting his remarks (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/09/20030923-4.html) directly rather than relying on the media. And what about them? There is at least some pretense they died in a just cause, which is not the case here.


The true monuments of his rule and his character -- the torture chambers, and the rape rooms, and the prison cells for innocent children -- are closed. :o

[red5angel]

How many US-Soldiers were wounded(possible crippled) and what about their lifes and families? How many won't be able to go back to their old jobs and how will this affect their families?


why is it that people don't get that our military is a volunteer army? those soldiers volunteered to take on those risks.

This fukking makes me sick. I was up until 2 am last night I was so angry. This whole Berg thing underlines the essential problem underlying this war - Muslim extremists will always try to escalate the situation in anyway they can. While Regimes like Saddam Husseins exists - that means a good majority of them in the middle east - the undereducated, over ignorant sons of b!tch3s will continue to kill innocent people in the name of Allah.
I don't approve of what happen to those Iraqi Prisoners at Abu Ghraib - I worked a POW Camp in '91, nothing like this came close to happening while I was present, this is not normal behaviour - but to murder a civilian, publicly, in such a horrible fashion.
Until these regimes are annhilated, and the people of the middle east are free to explore the world for themselves, gain an education and learn that the narrow minded extremist is not correct in his way of looking at the world, this sort of thing will go on. Innocent civilians will lose their lives - and before you start craying for the innocents in Iraq, try not to forget the 3000 innocents in the WTC - people will die horribly for these madmen.

Don't forget this when you vote americans. This war has to be finished, and the rebuilding of Iraq has to be carried through. the middle east must be reformed and allowed to enjoy and thrive in a more open minded and free culture then it is mired in now.

[David Jamieson]

the middle east must be reformed and allowed to enjoy and thrive in a more open minded and free culture then it is mired in now.

and what is exactly in the works to make this happen?
How are the actions of the USA and Britain supporting this ideal?
How can anyone expect such change to occur when there has been a completely different cultural perspective for centuries?

Even democracy in america took years and years to take root. You think it can happen there inside a 5 year plan designed by non-natives and presented in the fashion that it is being presented in?

The current way, is not the way.

regards

[scotty1]

Not to put words into your mouth, but are you suggesting that the same thing that happended in Iraq ie. invasion followed by regime change, should happen elsewhere?

EDIT

Kung Lek beat me to it. :D

[Shaolinlueb]

i saw it, i dont want to ever see it agina, i felt like throwing up and i get shivers down my spine.

[red5angel]

Even democracy in america took years and years to take root. You think it can happen there inside a 5 year plan designed by non-natives and presented in the fashion that it is being presented in?


no, but you have to start somewhere.

[rogue]

I hope the US soldiers who were (and possibly still are) abusing prisoners are taking notes of the consequences of their actions. I don't think it has antying to do with abuse of prisoners. I believe that we should play the same game as those doing the kidnapping and make them disappear only to be found in a condition that will hinder their trip to paradise.

[MasterKiller]

I hope the US soldiers who were (and possibly still are) abusing prisoners are taking notes of the consequences of their actions. It's ridiculous to think these are the "isolated" incidents the administration keeps pushing.

Someone high up decided that the way to break down Iraqi men is to put them in sexually demeaning and subservient roles. Those soldiers who "abused" the prisoners were more than likely just following orders, but I'm sure they will made into scapegoats.

[red5angel]

you've got to be fukking kidding me MK.....:eek:

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by red5angel
you've got to be fukking kidding me MK.....:eek:

nah i wouldnt doubt it. maybe they werent told to do it directly, but they said by any means possible. its like the nazi's, never did they mention in any of their documents the word kill, or exterminate of the jews. it was mostly "fix the problem". and yes i jsut compared modern us military to nazi germany. :o :rolleyes:

[red5angel]

you know what I think is interesting more then anything else? what is it that people think is going to stop these people from killing innocents? what is it that people believe is going to make islamic extremists put down their guns and walk away from their jihad? I find it slightly odd that people think things are just sort of going to sort themselves out in some mysterious way. Like if we just leave everything alone, things will magically get better.

I also find it strange that some people still believe that you can have warfare without bloodshed. That you can go to war without doing things that arne't offensive to our civilized ways of thinking.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by red5angel
I also find it strange that some people still believe that you can have warfare without bloodshed. That you can go to war without doing things that arne't offensive to our civilized ways of thinking.

yeah they're called hippies. I fawkin hate hippies. stop waring a jihad? nothing they will always ifnd a reason becasue they dont like us. if we cut everything they'll be like, "you're woman wear makeup! we will kill yuor people!"

[scotty1]

I don't think it has antying to do with abuse of prisoners. I believe that we should play the same game as those doing the kidnapping and make them disappear only to be found in a condition that will hinder their trip to paradise.

Sounds like a good way to escalate the situation to me, Israel/Palestine, Northern Ireland, neither situation has been helped by tit-for-tat killings.

And revenge for abuse of prisoners was, I believe, the stated aim of the beheading. Regardless of whether it was merely an 'excuse' for the act, the US needs to remain whiter than white so the propaganda war isn't lost.

[David Jamieson]

I think that by reading to far into the minutia we are ignoring the big picture.

The problem in Iraq isn't the soldiers abusing prisoners and it isn't the executions of the contractors.

These are symptoms and results of actions and decisions made at much higher levels. And ultimately yes, the commander is 100% responsible and accountable for the actions of his/her wo/men in country.

Afterall, this is not a singular isolated incident. More and more is being released everyday and the problem is endemic throughout the entire situation.

I think it is probably not the best idea to force western ideology onto a people and nation that cannot relate to it and for the most part despise quite a bit of what it is and what it stands for...if anything.

To attempt to "force" change is in and of itself a mistake.

It takes a bigger man to fess up to mistakes and to make amendments to them and to atone.

This violence is only accumulative and it is becoming chaos and anarchy.

To do the right thing is only becoming more and more difficult as more of these attrocious actions are carried out by either "side".

There are no open arms and flowers as it was thought there would be. It is likely best to take a step back, make a review and to try plan b perhaps? How will the Iraqi people ever accept occupation? How would you accept it if the shoe was on the other foot and it was an islamic nation that had teh most powerful military and wanted to set your ideals and way of society straight.

Occams razor is quite readily and transparently becoming available to be viewed here.

regards

[red5angel]

the US needs to remain whiter than white so the propaganda war isn't lost.

absolutley, I'm not advocating public executions or anything so extreme, but sometimes, the people don't need to know everything, and there are things you have to do to get a job done, that people don't need to know about.

[scotty1]

you know what I think is interesting more then anything else? what is it that people think is going to stop these people from killing innocents? what is it that people believe is going to make islamic extremists put down their guns and walk away from their jihad? I find it slightly odd that people think things are just sort of going to sort themselves out in some mysterious way. Like if we just leave everything alone, things will magically get better.

I wouldn't suggest that.

However, invasion followed by regime change clearly doesn't work either.

How does abusing prisoners help to 'get the job done?'

[red5angel]

it's not about forcing change, it's about creating an envronment that will allow change in the first place.



However, invasion followed by regime change clearly doesn't work either.

how do you figure? We're not done in Iraq so that is not an example as of yet.


How does abusing prisoners help to 'get the job done?'

there's a fine line between abuse and interrogation.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
there's a fine line between abuse and interrogation. There is also a fine line between abuse and torture. Which side does sicking attack dogs on someone fall on? Or sodomizing prisoners?

[scotty1]

"However, invasion followed by regime change clearly doesn't work either.

how do you figure? We're not done in Iraq so that is not an example as of yet."

what on earth do you think the US can do in Iraq that will stop terrorist actions in that country?

"there's a fine line between abuse and interrogation."

Yup, but I'd say that both are pretty clearly legally and morally defined. Better make sure you stick to the right side.

[Merryprankster]

There is a fundamental distinction between:

1. Nazi Germany and the U.S.

2. Terrorist actions and the actions of the Abu Ghraib Prison guards

which robs the (sop****ric) moral equivalency argument of any legitimacy.

One is an issue of FOLLOWING policy. The other is COUNTER to policy.

U.S. military policy is to minimize, not maximize civilian casualties.

U.S. military policy is to treat prisoners with basic human respect, not rob them of it.

U.S. military policy is to refuse and report all illegal orders.

This is absolutely a failure in leadership. A properly led U.S. military unit does NOT experience these sorts of egregious, conspiratory crimes. Blame here runs deep. I listened to Teguba's testimony today and this was unit was FUBAR before it ever got to Iraq.

[David Jamieson]

This ability to believe is rather weak in some circles, above all in those with money and education. They may trust more in pure cold reason than a glowing idealistic heart. Our so-called intellectuals do not like to hear this, but it is true anyway. They know so much that in the end they do not know what to do with their wisdom. They can see the past, but not much of the present, and nothing at all of the future. Their imagination is insufficient to deal with a distant goal in a way such that one already thinks it achieved.~Goebbels


War is at best barbarism... Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot not heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.~ William Tecumseh Sherman (1820-1891)


Global war has become a Frankenstein to destroy both sides. No longer is it a weapon of adventure - the shortcut to international power. If you lose you are annihilated. If you win, you stand only to lose. No longer does it possess even the chance of the winner of a duel. It contains now only the germs of double suicide ~ General Douglas MacArthur (1880-1964)


The concious choice to take responsibility for the continuation of human life is further complicated by the fact that we are able to respond to it only before it happens. Since after extinction no one will be present to take responsibility, we have to take full responsibility now. ~ Jonathan Schell

[scotty1]

FUBAR?

F*cked Up Beyond All Reason?

[Merryprankster]

Beyond All Repair.

[Nevermind]

How were you guys able to watch that video? I simply read a description of it and my nerves have been shot ever since. I don't think I could bring myself to watch it. I don't think that there is anything we could possibly do to make these cowards stop hating us. They will always find a reason to kill innocents, which is a true act of a coward. If the U.S. were being occupied, sure, I would be resentful, but I would not advocate killing innocent people. I have seen Faces of Death and all the other "death" videos. But to me, beheading, has always been something that only happened in horror films. This has been a sickening dose of reality. Too sickening for me to ever want to see.

[ZIM]

As long as Sherman was brought up, let's look at his letter to Atlanta:

You have heretofore read public sentiment in your newspapers, that live by falsehood and excitement; and the quicker you seek for truth in other quarters, the better. [...]the South began war by seizing forts, arsenals, mints, customhouses, etc., etc., long before Mr. Lincoln was installed, and before the South had one jot or tittle of provocation.

I myself have seen in Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Mississippi, hundreds and thousands of women and children fleeing from your armies and desperadoes, hungry and with bleeding feet. In Memphis, Vicksburg, and Mississippi, we fed thousands upon thousands of the families of rebel soldiers left on our hands, and whom we could not see starve.

Now that war comes home to you, you feel very different. You deprecate its horrors, but did not feel them when you sent car-loads of soldiers and ammunition, and moulded shells and shot, to carry war into Kentucky and Tennessee, to desolate the homes of hundreds and thousands of good people who only asked to live in peace at their old homes, and under the Government of their inheritance.

But these comparisons are idle. I want peace, and believe it can only be reached through union and war, and I will ever conduct war with a view to perfect and early success.

This is what we need in the ME- a March to the Sea. I'm just not seeing any other way.

We should, at the very least, begin to explore the military capabilities of the space program and blow up al-Jazeera's sattelites...

[YinYangDagger]

Here we go again. I'm not going to start an argument here because, frankly, once again, the "political views" from the board members won't change regardless of what happens. And more than likely, I won't find myself responding to this nonsense, especially over and over and over and over and over - you get the point.....

Plain and simple, the soldiers depicting themselves as fools in the photos need to get burned, the ones giving orders to "prep" the prisoners need to get burned, and finally, that's where it needs to end.

The folks whining and moaning about Rumsfeld needing to resign is a bunch of political hoo-hahh. That's it. Nothing more. Of course I would do the same thing if we had a Democrat in the office and I wanted a Republican :)

Let's say you have a martial arts school, and you teach and teach to your hearts content. You go over repeatedly about "using only for self-defense", day in an day out. You go to the point of preaching of how not to use your deadly arts for anything other than self defense. All is going well. Years down the road, you have several students open up schools in other states, under your guidance. You are now running a chain of schools, and all is well. Then BAM. Someone kills someone using your methods you taught. Did you know the guy personally? Nope. Sure, you remember him doing the Tiger Bites Your Neck Buddha form for his test, but that's about it. So, tell me, what's your defense when the FBI knocks on your door? Is it YOUR fault that the guy that killed the 72 year old grandma using the Iron Tiger Claw Death Grip #8 technique? See what I'm getting at, folks?

Anyway, let me go back and get to the burning (not literally) of the soldiers and order-givers. They are morons because of the simple fact that they got caught. They took pictures. Some people here need to wake up and smell the roses. This happens ALL the time. It happens in every war, sometimes worse. I am completely dumbfounded by the reactions of the civilians. Sure, I know what you're going to say, but we're Americans and we should support human rights etc etc etc. I agree. BUT to sit back and think that this has never happened before and that it will never happen again is being moronic. People react in different ways to differnet situations they're in. Let me ask, and I'm not trying to act like I know everything or being an @ss, but how many folks here were actually in a war environment? In the military period?

Is it a tragedy, yes. That they got caught. Since they got caught because they were stupid enough to take pictures, etc, they need to burn. And it's NOT as easy to disregard an order just because you feel it's not right, regardless of what you may think. In a war-time environment, disregarding an order CAN get you shot and killed by the officer that issued the order. Perfectly legal. Now it probably wouldn't get to that point in this situation, but I just wanted to give you guys the impression of how orders are perceived by military people. Maybe I'm wrong with the orders by these folks, they were in the Army. But you're taught from day one that NO order is to be questioned in the Marine Corps. No rolling the eyes, no smirks on your face, just follow the fu%king order or be dealt with swiftly. Some people will never understand this, especially if you've never been in the service.

I have a lot more points, but I'm tired of typing. Further, I know some of my points will get a lot of the people here all huffy. :D

[scotty1]

Interesting point YYD.

And I mean that in a nice way:)

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
U.S. military policy is to minimize, not maximize civilian casualties.

U.S. military policy is to treat prisoners with basic human respect, not rob them of it.

U.S. military policy is to refuse and report all illegal orders.

This is absolutely a failure in leadership. A properly led U.S. military unit does NOT experience these sorts of egregious, conspiratory crimes. Blame here runs deep. I listened to Teguba's testimony today and this was unit was FUBAR before it ever got to Iraq.

welcome to 1776. properly led, yeah right, nothing is properly led these days.

[Merryprankster]

properly led, yeah right, nothing is properly led these days.

Bull****.




And it's NOT as easy to disregard an order just because you feel it's not right, regardless of what you may think. In a war-time environment, disregarding an order CAN get you shot and killed by the officer that issued the order. Perfectly legal. Now it probably wouldn't get to that point in this situation, but I just wanted to give you guys the impression of how orders are perceived by military people. Maybe I'm wrong with the orders by these folks, they were in the Army. But you're taught from day one that NO order is to be questioned in the Marine Corps. No rolling the eyes, no smirks on your face, just follow the fu%king order or be dealt with swiftly. Some people will never understand this, especially if you've never been in the service.

I'm in the Coast Guard. War? Not often, but plenty dangerous in its own right... And you have an obligation refuse unlawful orders. Even as a Marine:


1132. Compliance With Lawful Orders: All persons in the naval service (this incluides Marines as they are Dept of Navy) are required to obey readily and strictly, and to execute promptly, the lawful orders of their superiors.

That lawful bit places the onus of responsibility not only on the senior but on the subordinate as well. Not to get stupid, but that was why the Marines in "A Few Good Men," were found guilty. I grant you that in a firefight, questioning orders probably isn't the finest idea. But this is pretty clear cut and as MP's, it's not as though they didn't have time to mull it over.


1150. Redress of Wrong Committed by a Superior: A person who believes a superior exercises authority in an unjust or cruel manner or is guilty of misconduct should submit a complaint to his or her commanding officer.

Ok. So, you don't HAVE to report them. But you should.

What happened at Abu Ghraib was a failure of leadership. Period. Well led units do not experience these types of problems. You get the odd problem, but they are dealt with swiftly because the responsible people in the unit don't tolerate that crap. This was not an "odd problem." The failure runs deep. I am unwilling to extend this to the administration, but certainly the Brigade commander should feel, at the very least, administrative repercussions.

[Merryprankster]

1137. Obligation To Report Offenses : All offenses observed should be reported to the proper authority.

Oops. Forgot about this one too.

[Shaolinlueb]

okay oaky, maybe your highschool student council meetings are properly led.... oh wait nm. :o :p

[David Jamieson]

according to private england, the female soldier in all the pics from the prison in iraq with the smoke and the thumbs up, she was ordered to participate by those of higher rank and they were carrying out these actions as part of an ordered psy-ops (pshchological operations) campaign.

THe 7 who are currently under arrest are by all accounts only doing what they were told and encouraged to continue.

the berg thing, while disgusting, is a sideshow and it is only a distraction from the act that the occupation has gone terribly awry and the leadership is faltering all the way up the ladder and right into the oval office.


merryp- do you honestly think that each and every soldier or marine is a lawyer or something? come on man. These guys and girls will do what they are told regardless of what the order is and especially if it is encouraged by their peers as well as their superiors. I think you give your regular soldier more credit than is deserved in your stance regarding your position. Just saying.

Chris M- I am surprised you are still trying to defend Bush. Do you work in the administration or something?

I have been wondering how many of you who post this pro-bush admin stuff here work for the admin, or republican party. Man, I kinda feel sorry for you because you have one heck of a crappy job with all the fires you are having to put out for these guys.

The neo-con ideals and ideologies that are at play are clearly filled with hubris and are not the correct path in regards to foreign policy. How much longer before people step up and say enough is enough in the states I wonder? How many more deaths before people are shook out of their apathy and take action?

The US is in the dimmest light it has ever been in in recent history. Never before has it been viewed with such revilement by a great portion of the entire planet.

It is certainly not the people for the most part, it is in fact the current administration that is solely responsible for the position they are in by all indications, including the indifference to the reports from teh FBI and The CIA and others pre-911.

pretty sad, I gotta say, It's a terrible thing that is happening in the world.

[ZIM]

The neo-con ideals and ideologies that are at play are clearly filled with hubris and are not the correct path in regards to foreign policy. How much longer before people step up and say enough is enough in the states I wonder? How many more deaths before people are shook out of their apathy and take action? We already have. The wars are our collective response. Not what you'd want, but hey, you're not american.
The US is in the dimmest light it has ever been in in recent history. Never before has it been viewed with such revilement by a great portion of the entire planet. Because it is you who are in darkness still. We were woken up by 9/11. Hopefully we can spare you a similar occurence, but we shall never be thanked for it. Thats OK.
It is certainly not the people for the most part, it is in fact the current administration that is solely responsible for the position they are in by all indications, including the indifference to the reports from teh FBI and The CIA and others pre-911. Nope, the previous administration dealt with it handliy. Between the cigars anyhow....

[CaptinPickAxe]

I just read that FBI saw Nic Berg three times right before his beheading. He was in Iraqi police custody.

[ZIM]

Untrue (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20040512/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_berg)

[YinYangDagger]

Good points MP - however, as an 18 year old infantryman I didn't have the time to comfortably sit around and read the Uniform Code of Miltitary Justice :D

Sh!t, after humping the M-60E3 in the field all day long, I only had one (OK, 2) things on my mind when I was off-duty - pu$$y and beer ;)

Funny how some things NEVER change :p

[Kristoffer]

some links
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0510042icrc1.html
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0505041torture1.html
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0419042iraq1.html

[Merryprankster]

YYD,

No argument. Like I said, the processing time you have on the field in a kill or die situation is significantly different. I'd probably follow orders then ask questions later! I know I sure as hell did during emergencies. Don't think, do.


Sh!t, after humping the M-60E3 in the field all day long, I only had one (OK, 2) things on my mind when I was off-duty - pu$$y and beer

Oddly enough, this is EXACTLY the mindset after two months in the Bering Sea....


Funny how some things NEVER change

Food, booze, sex, sleep. The four constants. Not necessarily in that order of precedence and we just may forego one for the other.

[YinYangDagger]

MP - I can feel your pain there as well. I never made it up to the Bering Sea, but spent plenty of time crossing the Atlantic and floating in the Mediterranean Sea. I've logged 1.5 years at Sea Duty :eek:

As far as the "Few Good Men" reference earlier, the Colonel was correct in his decision NOT to ship out a weaker link to another unit. As true as I believe in that, it was still fu&ked up what happened to Private Santiago. Yet another great point in the old saying ****#d if you do, ****#d if you don't. I love watching that movie and expressing how I feel when civilians are around, the folks that's never been in that type of situation look at me as a criminal. This is why it's so easy for the media to pull the wool over the eyes of the public. They know most people don't have a clue.

[Merryprankster]

Nope, I agree that not shipping him out was the right thing to do. You have a responsibility as a CO or a senior to improve your people, not fob them off on somebody else. A better answer would simply have been to work him over - legally, with extra training, more PT, etc - until he got it right.

Of course, you and I both know that sometimes people never get it right, and you just document and document and document until you can seperate for cause!

The Atlantic and Mediterranean have better port calls than the Bering. The North Atlantic can get a bit rough, but the Bering and port calls....

"****ing Dutch Harbor?! AGAIN! You've got to be ****ting me!!!"

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
Chris M- I am surprised you are still trying to defend Bush. Do you work in the administration or something?

I'm defending the truth. I'm advocating informing ourselves rather than getting our opinions hand fed to us. If you feel that truth is equivalent to pro-Bush, this is your bias, not mine. Personally, I think it's quite easy to oppose Bush without relying on misinformation.

[David Jamieson]

If you feel that truth is equivalent to pro-Bush, this is your bias, not mine.

please, I am not putting words in your mouth, don't put them in mine.

My point is that Bush has been shown to lie consistently throughout this whole fiasco. His doublespeak is only outdone by his hubris.

You have posted his "remarks" a couple of times now, and these were not the reasons given to the UN when the new resolution was being saught by the spokesperson for his administration at that time i.e Colin Powell's addres to the UN.

Not to mention the fact that the US was a staunch ally of Saddams for so many years and the fact that the UN and particularly the Bush senior administration left Saddam in power.

curioser and curioser it gets eh?

Anyway, I think it's interesting that the Berg story is basically overriding the prison abuse story and the precarious position of Rumsfeld.

1 guy gets executed by a few thugs and the whole world (according to the american news media) is aghast with horror!

meanwhile civilians are rounded up like cattle, bombed, shot, etc etc and that's only worth the 4th page if it gets to your average american at all.

I'm sure that Mr.Bush wouldn't be sufficiantly horrified and outraged to hear about all the Iraqi civilian casualties in his term as a "war president" as he likes to call himself.

I believe the named people is at somewhere over the 700 mark now with an overall death toll of near 20,000 Iraqis including their armed services members.

The terminiology used by the american media is interesting too.
Insurgents and terrorists as opposed to resistance fighters, regime as opposed to sovereign government, tyrannical dictator instead of head of state, and the list goes on and on.

I don't know about the rest of you, but a lot oif these lies coming out of the Bush admins little propaganda office are embarassingly transparent. It's interesting to watch your news that is fed to you in juxtaposition to what we see here and what's coming in from teh arab wrld and the european media.

as for the whole double speak of "having our own 911" which a few posters are consistent about throwing out with other little flag waving bits and pieces, I find it completely amazing that they don't have a clear perspective on that either. 911 affected a whole lot more contries than just teh US of A kids, after all it was the World trade centre not the USA trade centre. Don't forget either that the UN is based out of New York.

Comments like the above regarding get your own 911 should be legally obligated to include a hillybilly grunt and a toby keith liner note:rolleyes:

There is a world outside your door is what I am saying. And it's a big world, bigger than the US and bigger than the Bush administration and bigger than the ideology that the Bush administration seems to want to stuff down everyones gullet with force and predjudice.

Doesn't anyone want to ask why 911 happened? Doesn't anyone want to still ask where are the wmds? Doesn't anyone down in the states want to ask why isn't anyone in the rest of the world with us on this Iraq war? Becasue there are plenty of responses when you are ready to hear them.

regards

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
please, I am not putting words in your mouth, don't put them in mine.

Yes you are. You indicated that I supported Bush.

Moreover, I wasn't putting words in your mouth, I was supplying a simple bit of logic: if all I'm doing is advocating the truth, and what I am doing is supporting Bush, then advocating the truth is supporting Bush. Of course, this argument is meant to be nonsense: it was made to illustrate that the second premise (your statement) should be rejected.


You have posted his "remarks" a couple of times now

And will continue to do so as long as people continue to confused about them. It's that pesky advocating truth thing.

[Simon]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
Don't get me wrong. I feel just as much sympathy for any innocents killed in war regardless of nationality.

CaptinPickAxe - wasn't addressing you personally - just saw a good chance to make a comment :)

its great that there's so much discussion of this, I hope the American people let Bush know what they think of this whole debarcle

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by Kung Lek


and what is exactly in the works to make this happen?
How are the actions of the USA and Britain supporting this ideal?
How can anyone expect such change to occur when there has been a completely different cultural perspective for centuries?

Even democracy in america took years and years to take root. You think it can happen there inside a 5 year plan designed by non-natives and presented in the fashion that it is being presented in?

The current way, is not the way.

regards

Yes it is

And what would you call the Marshal plan? You know that little.....simple plan that rebuilt Germany and Japan after WWII.


You know that little plan that lead to Truman's containment policy, that eventually brought down the USSR.




EDUCATION is a wonderful thing!

Check you premise cause your standing on sand!

[YinYangDagger]

MP - Can't say I feel your pain there :D

What the heck is at a DUTCH port??? We hit some really cool ports like: Marseille, France; Barcelona, Spain; Messina, Italy; Rome, Italy; Toulon, France; Egypt; Haifa, Israel; Ancona, Italy; Trieste, Italy (got a GOOD story for that one); Greece; Turkey; Corsica; Sardinia; Sicily; Tunisia; and my favorite place of all time: Mallorca.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by GroungJing

And what would you call the Marshal plan? You know that little.....simple plan that rebuilt Germany and Japan after WWII.
You know that little plan that lead to Truman's containment policy, that eventually brought down the USSR.


Except your little plan will never work in either Iraq or Afghanistan.
Germany and Japan cannot be used as a model for the current situation, there are too many differnences.
Too many people say that because we did in there we can do it everywhere, a very false assumption that will only lead to disaster.

Iraq at the moment if compared to other conflicts in recent history doesn't even match Vietnam well, but it sure looks like a perfect fit for Chechnya 10yrs ago.

[ZIM]

as for the whole double speak of "having our own 911" which a few posters are consistent about throwing out with other little flag waving bits and pieces, I find it completely amazing that they don't have a clear perspective on that either. 911 affected a whole lot more contries than just teh US of A kids, after all it was the World trade centre not the USA trade centre. Don't forget either that the UN is based out of New York.

Comments like the above regarding get your own 911 should be legally obligated to include a hillybilly grunt and a toby keith liner note
Assuming this was directed at me- I never wished that to befall you, or anyone else, so don't twist MY words, either.
ALSO- you don't know who I had in mind when I said 'we' were woken up by 9/11. I referred to our Jacksonian Democrats.... not that it would make any difference to you, becoz you have no idea at all how american political society is organised, therefore no lectures.

Have a cartoon (http://reason.com/hod/cartoon.pb090602.shtml), KL

[CaptinPickAxe]

ts great that there's so much discussion of this, I hope the American people let Bush know what they think of this whole debarcle

Your newer, so you probably missed my old quote "Stop King George".

Also, My only rival is Kung Lek in radical politics. But I think he has me beat by a stretched neck;)

Most Americans (mostly young) despise Dubya and all the lies he has perpetrated. Not to mention taking us to war on a guess.

BTW, welcome to KFM online. Better late than never:D

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
Most Americans despise Dubya

No they don't. He's at his lowest point in the polls, but is still the popular choice for next president.


Not to mention taking us to war on a guess.

Here (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/09/20030923-4.html), again, is his UN address. I presume you're referring to the popular allegation regarding WMD - please verify for yourself that this is not the reasoning he gave.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Funny how you forgot the next part...


(mostly young)

...which completely changes the context. I guess i should of clarified that.

So you think G-Dub's a good president?

Also, WMD was the point he stressed the most. Its a scare tatic to make the people pro-war.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
...which completely changes the context.

Could you provide some reference for this claim? As I noted, it's contradicted by what we know generally.


So you think G-Dub's a good president?

Compared to what?


Also, WMD was the point he stressed the most.

His remarks are right there, and he doesn't over-stress WMD. Right?

[CaptinPickAxe]

come on guy, compared to any of the other presidents. Thats obvious.

Watch MTV, read Rolling Stone, check out some counter culture. Its fairly evident that the newer generations aren't keen on Dub.

That isn't the only time he's (or his cohorts) mentioned WMD. Press released quotes are always abundant.

[Tit Sa]

How come we don't hear the Arab nations speaking out against the MURDER of a CIVILIAN!?

Why hasn't our dumb a$$ gov't demanded two faced gov't like Saudi Arabia to speak out against this?

Something is seriously wrong with the way things are done. Our foriegn policy will take us into such a $hit hole we will wish we had done different.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
come on guy, compared to any of the other presidents.

I really haven't compared him to other presidents much. It seems like a vacuous exercise, insofar as he was the only president governing in the context in which he governed.


Watch MTV, read Rolling Stone, check out some counter culture.

Aha. See, now we're at "it's true because the media said so," which I've already pointed out doesn't carry much weight with me. As an aside - lol @ MTV being counter-culture.


That isn't the only time he's (or his cohorts) mentioned WMD. Press released quotes are always abundant.

Again, you seem to be appealing to popular media opinion rather than any sort of fact. The actual, objective, verifiable words of the president are a superior source for determing what he actually said than the vague impression you've picked up from the media. It's amazing to imagine you might disagree with that.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

The actual, objective, verifiable words of the president are a superior source for determing what he actually said than the vague impression you've picked up from the media.


You mean the words and speeches that are prepared for him by his aides and PR people?? ;)

Don't put too much weight into what the US goverment/president spouts off publicly to get support for it's/his ideas and plans.
It's all PR, the real speeches and deals are done by his underlings prior to any event when NO Media is present.

The same is true for ANY goverment.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey
Don't put too much weight into what the US goverment/president spouts off publicly

When the question is 'what did the US government/president spout off publicly', I think that's exactly what we should 'put our weight into.' Don't you think?

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Christopher M

When the question is 'what did the US government/president spout off publicly', I think that's exactly what we should 'put our weight into.' Don't you think?

When the action suits the words than YES, otherwise NO. :D

Sorry, I am critical of what ANY goverment proclaims publicly to be the truth, till their words have been shown to have been acurate and true.

[Christopher M]

Bob: "Bush sucks cause he said X."
Jim: "Actually, look: Bush said Y, not X."
Bob: "No, you're wrong because we shouldn't put any weight in what Bush says."

Do you notice the error here?

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Christopher M
Bob: "Bush sucks cause he said X."
Jim: "Actually, look: Bush said Y, not X."
Bob: "No, you're wrong because we shouldn't put any weight in what Bush says."

Do you notice the error here?

No error, I see whatever he or any other Head of State sez as a PR exercise to fit the situation and get the support their goverment needs.
And I guess most intelligent people agree with me on that.

Bush is NOT the US Goverment nor does he make all the decisions(atleast I sincerely hope so)

If Bush sez X now, Y 3 months later and when the brown stuff hits the fan sez it is now Z not X or Y than I guess it is not a problem for you?

But I will stop here as I got to go and laugh at what my Head of State has to say(should be good).

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey
No error

Yes, there is an error: no matter how little you trust government proclamations, you still can't criticize them for saying something they didn't say.

[Merryprankster]

YYD,

It's Dutch Harbor, AK.

And there is NOTHING there, except the elbow room, a couple of sports bars and a movie theatre. Oh... and a giant fish processing plant.

Fun fun...

[Merryprankster]

Yes, there is an error: no matter how little you trust government proclamations, you still can't criticize them for saying something they didn't say.

Yes you can! It's easy....

Take a step to the left...
Look up a websiiiiiiiiite...

Let's do the fact warp agaaaaaaaaiiiiiin!
Let's do the fact warp agaaaaaaaaiiiiiin!

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Merryprankster

Take a step to the left...
Look up a websiiiiiiiiite...


Didn't know that non-us media is left-wing, neither did I know that Reuters and AP are left-wing.
:D :D

[Christopher M]

:confused:

[YinYangDagger]

Ahhh OK, MP. Never been that far North (AK).

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Christopher M
No they don't. He's at his lowest point in the polls, but is still the popular choice for next president. He wasn't even the popular choice last go round.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Tit Sa
How come we don't hear the Arab nations speaking out against the MURDER of a CIVILIAN!?

Why hasn't our dumb a$$ gov't demanded two faced gov't like Saudi Arabia to speak out against this?

Something is seriously wrong with the way things are done. Our foriegn policy will take us into such a $hit hole we will wish we had done different.

Maybe it is because the news services don't report it?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
you've got to be fukking kidding me MK.....:eek:

Rumsfeld Approved Iraq Interrogation Plan -Report

1 hour, 13 minutes ago Add Top Stories


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld approved a plan that brought unconventional interrogation methods to Iraq (news - web sites) to gain intelligence about the growing insurgency, ultimately leading to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, the New Yorker magazine reported on Saturday.

Rumsfeld, who has been under fire for the prisoner abuse scandal, gave the green light to methods previously used in Afghanistan (news - web sites) for gathering intelligence on members of al Qaeda, which the United States blames for the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, the magazine reported on its Web site.

Pentagon (news - web sites) spokesman Jim Turner said he had not seen the story and could not comment. The article hits newsstands on Monday.

U.S. interrogation techniques have come under scrutiny amid revelations that prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad were kept naked, stacked on top of one another, forced to engage in sex acts and photographed in humiliating poses.

Rumsfeld, who has rejected calls by some Democrats and a number of major newspapers to resign, returned on Friday from a surprise trip to Iraq and Abu Ghraib prison, calling the scandal a "body blow." Seven soldiers have been charged.

The abuse prompted worldwide outrage and has shaken U.S. global prestige as President Bush (news - web sites) seeks re-election in November. Bush has backed Rumsfeld and said the abuse was abhorrent but the wrongful actions of only a few soldiers.

The U.S. military has now prohibited several interrogation methods from being used in Iraq, including sleep and sensory deprivation and body "stress positions," defense officials said on Friday.

SPECIAL ACCESS PROGRAM

The New Yorker said the interrogation plan was a highly classified "special access program," or SAP, that gave advance approval to kill, capture or interrogate so-called high-value targets in the battle against terror.

Such secret methods were used extensively in Afghanistan but more sparingly in Iraq -- only in the search for former President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) and weapons of mass destruction. As the Iraqi insurgency grew and more U.S. soldiers died, Rumsfeld and Defense Undersecretary for Intelligence Stephen Cambone expanded the scope to bring the interrogation tactics to Abu Ghraib, the article said.

The magazine, which based its article on interviews with several past and present American intelligence officials, reported the plan was approved and carried out last year after deadly bombings in August at the U.N. headquarters and Jordanian Embassy in Baghdad.

A former intelligence official quoted in the article said Rumsfeld and Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, approved the program but may not have known about the abuse.

'DO WHAT YOU WANT'

The rules governing the secret operation were "grab whom you must. Do what you want," the unidentified former intelligence official told the New Yorker.

Rumsfeld left the details of the interrogations to Cambone, the article quoted a Pentagon consultant as saying.

"This is Cambone's deal, but Rumsfeld and Myers approved the program," said the Pentagon consultant in the article.

U.S. officials have admitted the abuse may have violated the Geneva Convention, which governs treatment of prisoners of war.

The New Yorker said the CIA (news - web sites), which approved using high-pressure interrogation tactics against senior al Qaeda leaders after the 2001 attacks, balked at extending them to Iraq and refused to participate

After initiating the secret techniques, the U.S. military began learning useful intelligence about the insurgency, the former intelligence official was quoted as saying.

[BlueTravesty]

you know, I really don't like President Bush all that much, but hearing all the ardently anti-Bush types singing their songs in unison almost makes me wish I did. (I'm tired and work sucked, so here comes some rambling.)

What bothers me is that a lot of people seem to think of the terroris- oops! I'm sorry, "freedom fighters" more as a bunch of Che' Guevarra-esque revolutionaries (Che' Guevarra-esque is aiming pretty low if you ask me) and less like the Middle Eastern equivalent of Militias in the United States. The difference lies in the fact that as an industrialized nation where the majority of the nation enjoys a relatively comfortable standard of living and a decent education, the Militias are an annoyance at their worst, and are quite harmless about 99% of the time.

Now take away industrialization, a relatively robust economy and the opportunity for a free, adequate education, and you've got quite a restless population. What is an insanely oil-wealthy Middle Eastern Government/Royal Family to do? Sure you could always put some of the money back in to the nation you're supposed to be leading so as to create an environment that could start a healthy fledgling economy, but where's the fun in that?

Wait a minute... you've got dime-a-dozen religious zealot demagogues spewing out their falafel-holes on how things need to change in the world to glorify their God, as well as armed and dangerous thugs on their payroll. All you gotta do is blame the grievances of the people on a bigger and more sprawling country, one that will be hard to take down, so the misguided zealots- oops again! compassionate revolutionaries will always have someone to fight and continue blaming their troubles on. Who needs a real army? The demagogues are so busy signing suicide bombers up you don't even need to chip in for recruiting posters.

"Destroy the Great Satan, the United States, and all your troubles will end."

"Huh? Why the US?"

"They're filthy heathens!"

"But there are lots of those!"

"Ummm... (thinking quickly) their foreign policies are... uhhh, interfering and killing you all... ish."

"Why didn't you just say so? off we go!"

"And while you're at it, take care of Israel too. Because we hate Jews... I mean, because THEY have bad policy too. Yeah."

(I'd feel worse about the tangent if this thread was still relevant to the original topic, but sorry anyway.)