How would bjj change in the street when there's no cups?

[IronFist]

Being in someone's guard would be totally different if they weren't wearing a cup.

[yenhoi]

Vale tudo.

Not alot changes.

:eek:

[SifuAbel]

I dunno, what position is best to get shot in?

[ShaolinTiger00]

In a vale tudo guard there are 2 strategies.

1. bring your opponent in as deep ans as tight as possible, pulling him in with underhooks etc to break his balance out horizontally, while you set him up and remove his punching leverage.

2. Keep him as far out as possible, so that you're able to keep a foot on his hip and use your arms and other leg to control his wrists and hook his feet for sweeps, possibly kicks, and submissions. Your legs are longer than his arms = he can't reach your junk and if he could you'd see it coming.

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
In a vale tudo guard there are 2 strategies.

1. bring your opponent in as deep ans as tight as possible, pulling him in with underhooks etc to break his balance out horizontally, while you set him up and remove his punching leverage.

If you have double underhooks whats to stop him from gouging your eyes with his free arms? Maybe you could bury you head in his chest but even then he could probaly still find a way to worm his thumbs into position



Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00

2. Keep him as far out as possible, so that you're able to keep a foot on his hip and use your arms and other leg to control his wrists and hook his feet for sweeps, possibly kicks, and submissions. Your legs are longer than his arms = he can't reach your junk and if he could you'd see it coming.

Your nut sack is still exposed here- the danger however comes not from his arms but from his legs. It seems to me that by having an open guard you are by definition exposing your groin.

That said its probably true that the guard is still the best 'worst' position when you're on the bottom. However IMV you should aim to get up as quickly as possible and not mess around trying to get a sweep or submission unless its blatantly on offer. Still even then if someone picks you up and slams you on concrete while you are trying to triangle them its gonna hurt. Or if they're wearing shoes/boots they can just step back and soccer kick the stuffing out of your legs.

In short in a real fight I would do everything possible to avoid being on the bottom- either by working your takedown defence or by making sure you take them down first.

[IronFist]

Vale Tudo wears no cups?! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Shaolinlueb]

probably because they have no balls.


jk

:D :p

[yenhoi]

If you have double underhooks and he attempts to gauge your eyes, then you roll him over and from mount, gauge his eyes and punch him in the throat.

In guard, someone kneeing you in the butbone or standing up and kicking you some how are the worst striking fears. Most attempts at this, like st00 says, are telegraphed and will allow you to escape (not to mention you are touching him and should be able to feel his movement.)

:eek:

[Merryprankster]

If you have double underhooks whats to stop him from gouging your eyes with his free arms? Maybe you could bury you head in his chest but even then he could probaly still find a way to worm his thumbs into position

OK. This is one of those "simple, but not necessarily easy" things, like punching somebody in the face who doesn't want to be hit. Personally, I prefer an over/underhook configuration.


Your nut sack is still exposed here- the danger however comes not from his arms but from his legs. It seems to me that by having an open guard you are by definition exposing your groin.

There is risk involved in everything...but the question posed was, how does the game change without a cup. The truth is, it doesn't very much at all. The addition of strikes in general, changes the game more than the lack of a cup, and even that doesn't change the game hugely. It does enough to matter, but not greatly. It's sort of like the difference between sparring and a fight. The game is a bit different, but the skill sets remain and work fine.

Open guard is balance manipulation galore. You can trust me or ask ST00 what he thinks of my open guard :D. This makes it difficult - not impossible of course - to kick, and hard to reach the bottom man's body with arms because of the distance involved.

Of course, you can disengage to avoid this, but then the bottom man gets to get up too! Which is sort of the goal.


That said its probably true that the guard is still the best 'worst' position when you're on the bottom.

Agreed.


However IMV you should aim to get up as quickly as possible and not mess around trying to get a sweep or submission unless its blatantly on offer.

It is at least 50/50 that getting up will INVOLVE sweeping your opponent, especially if they have closed the gap on you and/or are bigger/heavier/stronger than you in a significant way. Agreed about the submission though. Also agreed with the general idea of getting the heck up.


Still even then if someone picks you up and slams you on concrete while you are trying to triangle them its gonna hurt.

This is why you hook the leg. If somebody doesn't hook the leg, I can't really help them. They made a mistake and might pay for it, much like not keeping your guard up can get you KOed.


Or if they're wearing shoes/boots they can just step back and soccer kick the stuffing out of your legs.

1. What if I don't WANT you to disengage? You aren't getting away THAT easy!!! :D

2. If you do, now I can get up too. I'm not going to just sit there. We, at least, and almost all other BJJer's I've encountered, practice getting up safely, in just such a situation.


In short in a real fight I would do everything possible to avoid being on the bottom- either by working your takedown defence or by making sure you take them down first.

Agreed.

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by Merryprankster

OK. This is one of those "simple, but not necessarily easy" things, like punching somebody in the face who doesn't want to be hit. Personally, I prefer an over/underhook configuration.


Yes that would be better. That way you could bury your head the same side as the overhook arm and thus minimize the chance of gouging. You'd also have control of the arm and the body.



There is risk involved in everything...

True enough- by protecting my groin I expose my face, by protecting my face I expose my groin and so on ad nauseum. Fight strategy is all about tradeoffs. In fact, I would go so far to say it often involves an out and out gamble. But the idea should always be (as any responsible investor knows): minimum risk for maximum return.

Incidentally there seems to be a lot of this thinking behind the design of wing chun- i.e. weight not forward cos that makes you easier to pull, weight not back cos the makes you easier to push- instead weight in the middle, hands not high cos that makes you vulnerable to low hits, hands not low cos that exposes you to high hits- instead hands in the middle etc.

[ShaolinTiger00]

You can trust me or ask ST00 what he thinks of my open guard

Your open guard is sick. I think the last time I rolled with you (or Phil?) was the last time anyone has been able to sweep me from the guard.