Weight-training for martial arts?

[Fu-Pow]

NOT AGAIN....right....no, this is not the same old rehash of a dead topic. Weight training obviously has benefits. If you disagree then start your own thread saying how much it sucks and should never be done in conjunction with martial arts.

My opinion is that as a martial artist we should have access to both internal and external strength. We should be "fit" in both the Western and Eastern sense of the word.

My question is more specific. All Chinese styles emphasize "body unity", "jin instead of strength","spiral energy",being "like steel wrapped in cotton."

Largely these qualities are achieved by relaxing the exterior muscles, aligning the body w/ gravity and utilizing deeper "core" muscles/tendons/ligaments coordinated with whole body movement and breathing.

Some styles work the interior muscles and exterior muscles concurrently. Think of Hung Gar's Iron Wire, San Chin or Southern Praying Mantis's hard chi gung sets. Some say these are purely "external." I would say that they combine internal and external training working the interior and exterior against each other to build strength.

Contrast this with Western weight lifting/body building which is to isolate each exterior muscle/or group of muscles separately and work those muscles in a mostly linear fashion. The emphasis is on isolation rather than whole body integration.

I've been thinking about this lately because since the new year I've been lifting weights a few times a week. I recently injured my rotator cuff muscle which I'm going to largely attribute to my shoulder being tired from weight lifting. I had isolated that muscle group and worked it to exhaustion while my other groups were not tired out. The result was that my body tried to do something (block down) which my shoulder couldn't keep up with because it was exhausted. The result was that my shoulder popped up and I bruised the supernatus muscle that runs through the shoulder.

Anyways, I'm wondering if there are weight lifting excercises that I can do that will aid in my training that are more integrative with what I'm doing as a student of martial arts and not a body builder. Is there a system of training (akin to something like the Alexander Technique/Feldincrais Method) that is more in line with natural (ie spiraling) body movement.

Previously I've been working on Nautilus type machines that really help you to isolate muscle groups. Which seems like a good idea at first because it helps you to do the excercise "correctly" but the "correct movement" is actually counter to what you want for martial arts (ie it is linear instead of spiral.)

I'm thinking excercises with free weights (especially barbells) may be better because you have more room to spiral and integrate the movement.

Also, I've heard of something called a "stone lock" which is basically an old school barbell.

For my Chen Taiji I've heard of Iron Ball training. But apparently this is very high level and not for the intermediate like me.

Any thoughts and advice are appreciated.

Again, please do not post your thoughts on whether weight training is good or bad. I don't want this to turn into a flame war. I only want thoughts on ways to integrate weight training with existing martial training.

Specifically, long fist styles (like Choy Lay Fut) and internal styles (like Chen Taiji.)

Thanks in advance.
:D

[Pork Chop]

You need as much big movement as you can.
The isolation stuff's not going to have as much carry over.

On big movements you can kind of go a few routes:
power lifts
olympic lifts
old fashioned lifts
plyometrics

You can either stick wtih one methodology or blend.

Power Lifts tend to center around Squat, Deadlift, Bench, as well as bent-rows, dips, and pullups. Pace is a little slow, but can be explosive. Usually go heavy. Rep schemes can vary, the fewer the reps, the more sets.

Olympic lifts include snatches, cleans, clean & j3rk, clean & press. Pace is explosive. The form is really difficult and you need special resources like a gym with bumper plates. Not really made for doing tons of reps, probably max 6 reps if even that much. Set wise, a significant amount, but probably not a ton.

Old fashioned lifts, for lack of a better term, includes stuff like kettlebells & clubells, with exercises like 1 arm snatch, kbell swings, sidepress, as well as the gamut of clubell exercises. Rep speed should be somewhat explosive. Rep/set scheme can be high (like pavel who makes these an endurance workout).

Plyometrics are explosive, and don't always use much weight. These type of exercises include box jumps, jumping pushups, and stuff with the medicine ball. Set and rep scheme can vary based on who your program's from.

The general rule on reps is that you do fewer reps (and more sets), the higher the intensity. Intensity = %age of max output (weight).

Ford Prefect, IronFist and the rest from the nutrition board can clear this up. Or just post the question there.

[SifuAbel]

I've always concidered this to be a myth of propaganda.

Weight training in itself has never been an issue. Many exercises in the traditional way, whatever that is, included lifting weighted objects.


What most people in MA didn't want however is the hypersized body builder type body that was way too unnatural for fighting. And by that they mean one whom has grow way too much muscle for their frame. It made them slow and inflexable. Some guys look big and ripped to shreds but they are still within the parameters of their frame and height.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Functional strength.

MA need to be strong, and sometimes a byproduct of building strength is gaining size, but you should avoid the "gym muscles" approach of isolated movements with reps aimed at hypertrophy
(if you do want to gain size, there are better ways)

Lifting should use large groups of muscles (deadlifts, squats, snatch, clean & jerk)

An excellent article (http://www.crossfit.com/cf-download/CFJ-trial.pdf)

[Chang Style Novice]

Touching on the 'iron ball qigong' that Fupow mentions briefly.

I learned a version of this, that was taught to me by my teacher and to him by Chen Qin Zhou (I hope I'm spelling that right.) It definitely fits the description of large, full-body movements that you're talking about. I don't know about it being high level and unfit for intermediate practitioners (I'd be hesitant to call myself intermediate, especially considering the time I've gone without any intesive practice lately) but Sifu Hwang typically teaches it as an accompaniment to the first set of 'external' kungfu a student learns - in my case, the Elephant Kungfu form.

And now, a brief description. The 'iron ball' I used was an ordinary bowling ball - I think a 10 or 12 pounder. The method was essentially carefully regulating breathing to coordinate with dantien motion and leg motion to achieve the goal of powering the ball around without using much if any arm strength. The ball is generally held at the dantien with one hand underneath and one hand atop. Motions to impart to the ball include up/down cycles, horizontal circles (both clockwise and counterclockwise), in front of the belly and in a semicircle around the front of the body, also 'popping' the ball into the air. When I did this qigong after some time off from doing it, I'd get sore in the anterior serratus, lumbars, and obliques.

[Fu-Pow]

Thanks for the replies so far....the crossfit article was especially interesting although I think that they are missing the boat on
"internal strength." Only looking at things from the Western perspective. But that is all they have probably been exposed to.

I also found this article on-line. It outlines many of the "strength training" excercises found in Taji:

http://www.geocities.com/tukylam/strength.htm

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Contrast this with Western weight lifting/body building which is to isolate each exterior muscle/or group of muscles separately and work those muscles in a mostly linear fashion. The emphasis is on isolation rather than whole body integration.


That is where EVERYONE makes a mistake... Strength training isn't isolative. Notice that I differentiate between strength training and just weight training. You want to do big, compound exercises, like the bench press, squat and deadlift.

I've been thinking about this lately because since the new year I've been lifting weights a few times a week. I recently injured my rotator cuff muscle which I'm going to largely attribute to my shoulder being tired from weight lifting. I had isolated that muscle group and worked it to exhaustion while my other groups were not tired out. The result was that my body tried to do something (block down) which my shoulder couldn't keep up with because it was exhausted. The result was that my shoulder popped up and I bruised the supernatus muscle that runs through the shoulder.

it may not be the weights specifically. I injured my shoulder from repetitive motion... I was doing hundreds of pushups everyday. repetitvie stress and possible overtraining injured it.

Anyways, I'm wondering if there are weight lifting excercises that I can do that will aid in my training that are more integrative with what I'm doing as a student of martial arts and not a body builder. Is there a system of training (akin to something like the Alexander Technique/Feldincrais Method) that is more in line with natural (ie spiraling) body movement.

like I said - compund movements. The three I listed are actually all you need, as between those three, you hit pretty much every muscle in the body.

[ShaolinTiger00]

You guys still actually believe in "internal power" ?

different strokes fo' different folks I guess..

[SevenStar]

don't make me hit you with a chi blast to the face.



In the sense of "internal power" being proper body mechanics, yes. But as in the mysterious energy that drives us all, no.

[Fu-Pow]

Hmmmm....Seven Star you make some pretty good points. I'm gonna look into some more of these "whole body" type excercises.

They're not as "integrative" as Taiji excercise is but they seem like they are MORE integrative than doing body building type excercises and fit better with my MA training.

I'll ignore the comments about "internal power" as I EXPLICITLY stated that I didn't want this to devolve into a flame war!!! Besides I explained that all in my opening.

YA DIG!;) :rolleyes:

[fa_jing]

one-arm/one-leg lifts with free weights.

Shoulder rehab. do a search

No more Nautilus. Punching with cables would be all right

[Shooter]

I'd outline the best strength training regimen you could possibly do for your TCC, but you'd never do it. You couldn't handle it.

[Toby]

Do some heavy deadlifts or squats. You'd be surprised how "integrative" they are. Interestingly, possibly the most important area in these lifts is the *buzzword alert* "core" (abdomen, lower back or {if you prefer} dan tien, lower spine). Breath in conjunction with core strength is the difference between success and failure with these lifts. At the risk of being even more redundant with this post, avoid isolation exercises unless you're addressing a specific problem.

[Chang Style Novice]

When I say "internal power" I just mean using the muscles between your hips and ribcage to do whatever your trying to do with the added strength of those muscles.

I also believe in an energy that powers us all, although I don't think it's especially mysterious. Some call it "metabolism."

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Shooter
I'd outline the best strength training regimen you could possibly do for your TCC, but you'd never do it. You couldn't handle it.

I'll bite -

I bet I could... What is it?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
When I say "internal power" I just mean using the muscles between your hips and ribcage to do whatever your trying to do with the added strength of those muscles.

I also believe in an energy that powers us all, although I don't think it's especially mysterious. Some call it "metabolism."

A while back, someone (I think it was omegapoint) gave a long theory of his that summed up qi as being nothing more than metabolism and everyone ridiculed him. It sounded plausible though.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow

They're not as "integrative" as Taiji excercise is but they seem like they are MORE integrative than doing body building type excercises and fit better with my MA training.


On the same token, taiji exercises aren't as efficient at building strength as the exercises I mentioned.

[Shooter]

Seven, I have no doubts about you.

It's just been my experience that when most TCC people ask about strength training, they don't really wanna know. And very few of the ones who do wanna know are crazy enough to actually do it.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Shooter.

Can you let me have the routine too, I am just about to start a new regime/routine and would be interested in it.

If it can be done at home it would be better for me, the gyms close by hardly have any free-weights. :(

[Shooter]

T'ai Ji monkey, try these for 4 months:

Get a sledgehammer, pick-axe, and shovel. Drive to your nearest gravel pit and break rock, break ground, dig holes, fill em back up. Wear safety glasses at all times, and maybe some steel-toed boots. 4 hour sessions, twice a week.

Get a big old tractor tire - throw it, lift it, and carry it around your back yard. 2 hour sessions, 3 times a week.

Do odd carries equalling your own body weight up and down a flight of stairs. 1 hour sessions, 5 times a week.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Shooter
T'ai Ji monkey, try these for 4 months:

Get a sledgehammer, pick-axe, and shovel. Drive to your nearest gravel pit and break rock, break ground, dig holes, fill em back up. Wear safety glasses at all times, and maybe some steel-toed boots. 4 hour sessions, twice a week.

Get a big old tractor tire - throw it, lift it, and carry it around your back yard. 2 hour sessions, 3 times a week.

Do odd carries equalling your own body weight up and down a flight of stairs. 1 hour sessions, 5 times a week.

Thanks.

Makes me remember the time when I was working for 2 months as a labourer on a farm got plenty fit and strong during that time. :D Add to that plenty of wood chopping, etc.
Next summer was a 1-month stint at a Kibutz.

[IronFist]

I didn't even read this thread because I'm sure everything that's been asked can be found in the training forum, where this should have been posted in the first place.

Reasons martial artists should weight train:

1. Nothing in TMA will get you very strong. Bodyweight exercises, dynamic tension, etc. The only way you get stronger is by lifting heavy weights. Being able to hold a horse stance for a long time or do a lot of pushups does not mean you're strong. It means you have good endurance, which is important, but it doesn't mean you're strong. You could hold a horse stance all day long and still not be able to squat your bodyweight on a barbell. How important is strenght in a fight? Go fight someone who is a lot stronger than you and you'll see.

I realize that list ended with 1. Now let's look at myths that accompany weight lifting.

1. It will make you inflexible.
2. It will make you slow
3. I forgot the rest of them but if you heard a martial artists say it it's probably not true.

1 and 2 up there are false.

Next question?

IronFist's number one rule of weightlifting?

Never learn about weightlifting from a martial artist (unless it's one of the smart ones here). But if you go to a MA school and your teacher tells you "martial artists shouldn't lift weights because they make you bulky and slow" or some crap like that, you should find a new school.

Shooter, what's TCC? I want to hear this crazy workout.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by SevenStar


A while back, someone (I think it was omegapoint) gave a long theory of his that summed up qi as being nothing more than metabolism and everyone ridiculed him. It sounded plausible though.

It was Goktimus Prime, and his theory while plausible had some huge holes in it. Metabolism may be a part of it, but does not adequately explain the concept of qi.

Personally I don't see why it is so hard to accept the explanation that qi is breath and the various effects it has on the body. ;)

[Fu-Pow]

Ok...I've gotten some good replies so far. Especially from Sevenstar.

However, you other guys seem to be hell bent on talking about 2 things:

1) Internal vs. External
2) The benefits of weight training for martial arts.

Those are the 2 topics that are taboo in this thread. Please have respect for my request that this thread not devolve into that.

To restate my original request.

I'm looking for weight training techs, regimens that I integrate more fully with my current training.

I currently study Choy Lay Fut and Chen Style Taiji.

Can anyone point me in the direction of links or books or have any ideas of their own?

Thanks. ;)

BTW, Shooter you are on my ignore list so I don't know why you even bother posting to this thread. I'm never gonna read it.

[Ford Prefect]

"Largely these qualities are achieved by relaxing the exterior muscles, aligning the body w/ gravity and utilizing deeper "core" muscles/tendons/ligaments coordinated with whole body movement and breathing."

FYI, tendons and ligaments do not move your body. When you move whether it is in Taiji or in the weight room, it is your muscles moving your body. The relaxation is just so there are no antogonist muscles and risidual tension acting as brakes on the movement which would sap your power.

Learn how to olympic lift (snatches and clean&jerks). It take full body power and coordination. You must have proper alignment, form, breathing, etc. The power snatch and power clean is better for beginners.

Full Snatch:

http://strengthtraining.asimba.com/video/small/classic_snatch.avi

Power Snatch:

http://strengthtraining.asimba.com/video/small/power_snatch.avi

Full Clean:

http://strengthtraining.asimba.com/video/small/classic_clean.avi

Power Clean:

http://strengthtraining.asimba.com/video/small/power_clean.avi

Jerk: (to be combined with a clean)

http://strengthtraining.asimba.com/video/small/split_jerk_front.avi

[MasterKiller]

What's the difference between the Full Snatch and the Power Snatch? They look the same.

[Pork Chop]

I think on the "Full" versions they were sinking lower.
I can't do that, I'd do a lot better with the "power" versions because i have serious balance issues squatting down that low.

shooter had some nice functional strength stuff: odd object lifting, strong man training, and old school stuff like wood chopping/sledgehammer/pickaxe, which you can kinda do with clubells.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Shooter
T'ai Ji monkey, try these for 4 months:

Get a sledgehammer, pick-axe, and shovel. Drive to your nearest gravel pit and break rock, break ground, dig holes, fill em back up. Wear safety glasses at all times, and maybe some steel-toed boots. 4 hour sessions, twice a week.

Get a big old tractor tire - throw it, lift it, and carry it around your back yard. 2 hour sessions, 3 times a week.

Do odd carries equalling your own body weight up and down a flight of stairs. 1 hour sessions, 5 times a week.

sounds good.

[Fu-Pow]

Maybe I should just get a construction job?:rolleyes: Screw this molecular genetics crap!:p

[Pork Chop]

:confused:
tryin to tell if that was sarcasm or not

i mean baseball players and boxers used chopping wood to build crazy strength in the muscles that create that KO kinda torque.
Jack Dempsey and Babe Ruth immediately come to mind.

But if it makes you feel better, I hear Pek Kwar was a style used by a lumberjack who could eventually chop down trees without the axe.

Roy Jones Junior uses tire flips and sled drags as well.
I guess the kung fu analogy would be a chef with a heavy iron lid over his pot having a lot of power.

[Meat Shake]

If you are going to lift weights, instead of using the bar for benchpress, do dumbell presses so you use the support groups. I try to avoid using machines unless its a kung fu specific activity, like leg kickbacks with a couple hundred pounds. (theres a machine called the "butt blaster" at my gym that works in almost the exact same motion as the backward kicking motion in shuai chiao)

[Pork Chop]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
(theres a machine called the "butt blaster" at my gym that works in almost the exact same motion as the backward kicking motion in shuai chiao)

... don't lie, you know that you only use that thing to increase your "clench", to defend against the "donkey punch", or to make the guy really pay for it if he don't give you a reacharound....


:D

[Shooter]

That's ok, Fu Pow. Like I said, you couldn't handle it. Don't feel bad though, not many people can.

I've been 'training' like that for 40+ hours a week since my teens. 'cept I get paid to do it! :D

[Vash]

I like the Wood Chop exercise with a fairly heavy dumbbell. By rep eight, you know it's working.

[Chang Style Novice]

Meat Shake, as usual, is full of it.

The "Butt Blaster" is no exercize machine - it's the extra-large chimichanga platter he always orders at his favorite mexican restaraunt.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
If you are going to lift weights, instead of using the bar for benchpress, do dumbell presses so you use the support groups.

by doing that, you limit your strength gain. I bench 285... you won't find two 142.5 lb. dumbells.

[Shooter]

You know what, Seven? I can't do 1/3 the reps or near the same weight that my sons (14 and 17) do in their weight training (I've never done any kind of w/t).

They can't last 30 minutes doing what I do all day on the job.

Different kinda strength.

I got them doing 100lb pitches, cantilevers, and one-handed hoists with their barbells though, so there's still hope. :cool:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Shooter

They can't last 30 minutes doing what I do

duration... the key component there is endurance, which is what they are lacking.

I got them doing 100lb pitches, cantilevers, and one-handed hoists with their barbells though, so there's still hope. :cool:

Are you teaching them TCC? If not, you should be!

[Shooter]

the key component there is endurance, which is what they are lacking

Yes. A specific kind of endurance. Also, efficiency gained through proper training and time spent (kung fu).


Are you teaching them TCC? If not, you should be!

TCC is a family thing.

[IronFist]

Benching 200 != DB pressing 2 100's

("!=" means "not equal to" in some programming languages)

['MegaPoint]

Originally posted by SevenStar


A while back, someone (I think it was omegapoint) gave a long theory of his that summed up qi as being nothing more than metabolism and everyone ridiculed him. It sounded plausible though.

Well, more than metabolism. Yeah, I get criticized for being right a lot ;)! I could give you my entire soliloquy of what some in theoretical physics, modern medicine and so on think it might be. here's my quick take on it: Biomechanics (structural qi), the sum of biological processes (chemical and electrical energy), the duality of mechanical forces (antagonistic/protagonistic) and the polar energy which fuels our Universe (in accordance with the "seeds" of either opposite energy/force embedded in one or the other for the purposes of probability/change). Not here to steal a thread though. Just know that ki/qi is real, is internal and external and is a force or energy so fundamental and elegant that it is too complex in this simplicity and very hard for many to comprehend.

Weightlifting for any physical endeavor will only enhance things. Keeping supple, lifting for functional as well as aesthetic reasons and integrating this with your MAs activity is the key. Even if you do machines instead of dead weights you will get stronger and look and feel better about yourself. This enhances confidence and increase your overall self-image. All positive training goals. Also good for "the strategy of appearance".

Maximizing your time in the gym means doing a combination of strength and bodybuilding techs. You don't want to be a contracted, inflexible powerlifter. You don't want to have that gut either. You do want that explosive strength and speed that comes from powerlifting though. On the other hand, you don't want overly bulky, thin-skinned looking bodybuilder muscles. It is an intimidation factor, having big muscles, but you need to lift for real world strength too. Not that bodybuilders aren't strong, of course they are. I just think a good combo of both, sans deep squats that'll tear connective tissue eventually or ruin your hips, is a better training idea.

Plyometrics are okay, but do them in a modified fashion with a little heavier weight (like on explosive bench press) and less reps. All that balancing on one leg like Daniel-san while doing standing Arnold Presses is silly and stupid. Just lift moderately, with controlled motion, don't lock out on most lifts, and don't use that slow body-building contraction crap either. It'll slow you down. Do it with some speed and lots of control. Use a good weight. Do some aerobics on days when you go light, but not everyday.

Most of all, for you strikers, do light heavy bag, speed bag and/or double-end bag work as a warm-up on some days and end your workout with a good 15 minutes of heavy bag work after you lift on those days (at least 3 times a week). Also give your muscles recoup' time (~48 hrs.), and trick your muscles after you've been doing a certain routine for some time. You will get bigger gains in size and strength. Remember moderation means a good sweat, not a light sheen or extreme dehydration. Stretch between sets (wait no more than 30-45 secs. between sets), and after you are completely done with your workout.

Then do kata, hahahaha!

[IronFist]

Originally posted by 'MegaPoint
sans deep squats that'll tear connective tissue eventually or ruin your hips, is a better training idea.

What you meant to say was "deep squats done incorrectly..."

People who squat correctly have no problems, and are stronger and less prone to injury.


and don't use that slow body-building contraction crap either. It'll slow you down.

Not really.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by SevenStar


by doing that, you limit your strength gain. I bench 285... you won't find two 142.5 lb. dumbells.

No, but you can find adjustable dumbbells which you can load with as much weight as you like - I got 'em for my brother last christmas, in fact.