Wing Chun/Boxing connection

[madlilpimp]

I heard theres a new theory that states that wing chun is just a
version of western boxing that was learnt from early western sailors?

Does anyone know if theres any truth in this?

[anerlich]

That theory is *not* new, nor is there much evidence to support it.

Good WC historians like Rene Ritchie, Robert Chu and Y Wu do not mention it in their works.

That said, I would have hoped that old time Chinese pugilists would have been open-minded enough to observe their Western contemporaries and consider integrating some of their stuff into their own systems.

Some people think that most of the Asian kicking arts were derived from Savate and other older Western arts, but there's little evidence for that either.

[KPM]

In the early 90's a guy named Karl Godwin came up with this and wrote it up in a magazine article. It was pure conjecture. He claimed to have met an old man that had learned something called "omnipugilism" somewhere in Europe and that it was amazingly similar to Wing Chun. But he never produced any further info or evidence on this man or what he did. His whole theory was based around the idea that pics of Yip Man in the basic ready stance and pics of old-time boxers like John L. Sullivan in a basic fighting stance were similar. He theorized that since Wing Chun developed in the coastal areas of southern China where extensive trading went on with western countries, the chinese likely came in contact with sailors that knew western bare-knuckle boxing and that this lead to the development of Wing Chun. There's no more to it than this. A theory only, and not a very good one.

Keith

[Nick Forrer]

'I heard theres a new theory that states that wing chun is just a
version of western boxing that was learnt from early western sailors?

Does anyone know if theres any truth in this?'

I doubt it very much. Wing chun IMV is far more sophisticated (although not necessarily more complex) than western boxing. Of course if you look for similarities you will see them- after all human physiology and the laws of physics are universal- but this does not a connection make. Although it is often pointed out that the kind of boxing advocated in Jack dempseys 'championship boxing' bears an uncanny resemblance to wing chun (elbow down, hitting with the bottom three knuckles- so as to take advantage of the 'power line' etc.) even so, the presence of elbows, kicks, chops, palm strikes, body shifting, po pai, weapons, footwork, finger jabs etc. not to mention all the concepts in wing chun, should make one wary about pushing a connection IMO.

That said, If you can take a look at Kernspects book 'on single combat' you will see some interesting East/west comparisons.

[madlilpimp]

Yea a JKD guy posted this stuff on the SFUK forums thats why I asked. Ive always thought wing chun to be superior and quite different to boxing so I was kinda surprised to hear someone come up with a connection.

[Vio]

According to Leung Ting research Thai boxing is actually a distant relative to Wing Chun. And one wing chun man can handle two thai boxers.

[anerlich]

According to Leung Ting research Thai boxing is actually a distant relative to Wing Chun. And one wing chun man can handle two thai boxers.

Both prospects sound equally unlikely to me. How was the "research" conducted?

Replace "research" with "marketing" and you will have statements much closer to reality.

[Vio]

Heres a link to the wing chun thai boxing connection article. http://crane.50megs.com/index6u.htm
Apperantly wing chun has similar forms to traditional version of muay thai which they claim came from China.

[kj]

Originally posted by madlilpimp
I heard theres a new theory that states that wing chun is just a
version of western boxing that was learnt from early western sailors?

Does anyone know if theres any truth in this?

I have seen and read the text asserting this theory. While technically "anything is possible" and such theories can be a fun or interesting read, I offer with a HIGH degree of confidence that western sailors are not responsible for the origination of Wing Chun in China. If the word "certain" was part of my vernacular, I'd have used it here.

FWIW.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[anerlich]

Heres a link to the wing chun thai boxing connection article. http://crane.50megs.com/index6u.htm

I can't get that link to work.

[reneritchie]

Things designed for a similar purpose will tend to be similiar. This is true of Exel vs. Lotus, and it's true of WCK and boxing and many other MA.

They do things similar because they're used by similar configured beings (bipeds) trying to do similar things (hit other bipeds).

However, WCK and Boxing are not the same, and IMHO WCK is fairly easy to see as an evolution of preceeding Chinese MA, whereas any connection to Western boxers would be tenuous at best and difficult to substantiate.

Once again, the Red Junks are known to have had Fujian White Crane, Hakka boxing, and various flavors of Southern fist (typically Fujian mixed with Guangdong boxing), and perhaps some influenced from Sichuan systems (the Fujian - Liangguang - Sichuan route was very popular during the time just before and up to the known WCK period). I don't think WCK has anything in it we wouldn't be able to trace back to a confluence of those systems.

WRT WCK and Thai Boxing, there are two interesting theories. One is, in terms of the Ng Mui legend, that WCK was founded on the Sichuan/Yunnan border, and spread down into Thailand as it spread into Guangdong.

However, if we look at history, during the hard times of late Qing up through the Japanese occupation, WCK people moved into SEA in search of better lives, spreading WCK into Vietnam, Malaysia, etc. It seems possible WCK was spread in Thailand during this period as well.

[Phenix]

Hey RR,

It is true, that Boxing is the ancestor of Wing Chun!
there is boxer uprising in 1900 right? That is a history FACT.


BOXER REBERIAN! 1900! FACTS

:D

[Brodie Bortigno]

According to Leung Ting research Thai boxing is actually a distant relative to Wing Chun. And one wing chun man can handle two thai boxers.

I've never heard the theory, nor have I seen any evidence to support it. However much I doubt Leung Ting actually said such a thing, he would need to back it up with more than a statement. As for a wing chun man being able to "handle" two thai boxers, the statement is void as it doesn't take into account infinte variables. Wing Chun could be argued to be a superior art to Thai Boxing theoretically , but in order for theory to be applicable it must first be - you guessed it - applied. We can all sit around and discuss the body mechanics of a tan sau, hip power generation and all that, but it is of no use if you cannot apply it. Just because something is theoretically more powerful than something else does not mean it will be victorious indefinately.

[Vio]

Originally posted by Brodie Bortigno


I've never heard the theory, nor have I seen any evidence to support it. However much I doubt Leung Ting actually said such a thing, he would need to back it up with more than a statement. As for a wing chun man being able to "handle" two thai boxers, the statement is void as it doesn't take into account infinte variables. Wing Chun could be argued to be a superior art to Thai Boxing theoretically , but in order for theory to be applicable it must first be - you guessed it - applied. We can all sit around and discuss the body mechanics of a tan sau, hip power generation and all that, but it is of no use if you cannot apply it. Just because something is theoretically more powerful than something else does not mean it will be victorious indefinately.

Cheers.
I was simply quoting the article linked above where the author explains the connection. Is the link still not working?

[anerlich]

The link works, but I'd hardly say the text there is a masterpiece of historical scholarship.

[Brodie Bortigno]

I understand you were quoting Leung Ting, so I wasn't under the impression you thought those ridiculous things. Someone has mentioned marketing, and that would seem pretty accurate. The commercialisation of Wing Chun has become a problem. Big international schools are being opened and their training is basically garbage. I make a point of just not listening to the declarations of "grandmasters" or "great grandmaster", or whatever they call themselves, when they make outrageous claims about Wing Chun being unbeatable or the birthplace of all other martial arts.

Even if, by some stretch of logic, Wing Chun was the mother of boxing or the other way 'round, does it really matter at all at present day? They have so few similarities and are seperated in many other ways it just doesn't matter. Just because something "birthed" something else doesn't necessarily mean it is "better", just older.

All very silly stuff.

[KPM]

Originally posted by Vio
Heres a link to the wing chun thai boxing connection article. http://crane.50megs.com/index6u.htm
Apperantly wing chun has similar forms to traditional version of muay thai which they claim came from China.


This article does not say that WCK and Thai Boxing are connected. It says that WCK and a martial art known as "Ling Lam" or "Flying Monkey" boxing in Thailand may share a common ancestry. It never says that Ling Lam evolved into modern Thai Boxing. Krabi Krabong is the predecessor of modern Tha
boxing. The info in this article taken from Leung Ting lists Ling Lam, Krabi Krabong, and Thai boxing as distinct and separate things.

Keith

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Brodie Bortigno

. . . . . Wing Chun could be argued to be a superior art to Thai Boxing theoretically , but in order for theory to be applicable it must first be - you guessed it - applied. We can all sit around and discuss the body mechanics of a tan sau, hip power generation and all that, but it is of no use if you cannot apply it. Just because something is theoretically more powerful than something else does not mean it will be victorious indefinately.
I've been saying this for years but I like the way you worded it.
Some people still don't get it. ;)

[yylee]

Originally posted by KPM



This article does not say that WCK and Thai Boxing are connected. It says that WCK and a martial art known as "Ling Lam" or "Flying Monkey" boxing in Thailand may share a common ancestry. It never says that Ling Lam evolved into modern Thai Boxing. Krabi Krabong is the predecessor of modern Tha
boxing. The info in this article taken from Leung Ting lists Ling Lam, Krabi Krabong, and Thai boxing as distinct and separate things.

Keith

talking about monkeys in SiChuen.... I think of the monkeys at Mt Emei.

some pictures http://www.andrewjbooth.btinternet.co.uk/emei_shan1.htm

Don't think they can fly, but I heard they would all come at the tourists and rob their pockets.

[excellent2bu]

Originally posted by KPM
In the early 90's a guy named Karl Godwin came up with this and wrote it up in a magazine article. It was pure conjecture. He claimed to have met an old man that had learned something called "omnipugilism" somewhere in Europe and that it was amazingly similar to Wing Chun. But he never produced any further info or evidence on this man or what he did. His whole theory was based around the idea that pics of Yip Man in the basic ready stance and pics of old-time boxers like John L. Sullivan in a basic fighting stance were similar. He theorized that since Wing Chun developed in the coastal areas of southern China where extensive trading went on with western countries, the chinese likely came in contact with sailors that knew western bare-knuckle boxing and that this lead to the development of Wing Chun. There's no more to it than this. A theory only, and not a very good one.

Keith

Hey Keith,

I have a copy of that Black Belt issue from the 80’s. While you state it is “pure conjecture” there are some references listed. Furthermore, there is no mention of an old man. I wonder which article you read? I’m not claiming that references make something correct, but that there was some research done to support the idea, more than your obnoxious reply suggests.

As I recall the “theory” was not so much that European bare knuckle boxing was the sole source of wing chun, but that there was a possible connection and that European fighting arts could have influenced martial art development in China in the 1800s. To dismiss this idea out of hand you need to establish that 1) there was no trade going on between East and West (there certainly was) and 2) there was no systematic training for martial methods in Europe (plenty of evidence suggests otherwise). It’s also established that Chinese stories about kung fu origins suffer from plenty of “dramatization” and many WC practitioner’s are sceptical of the history attributed to Yip Man. In fact, one of Wang Kiu’s senior students told me that the whole thing was made up to promote the school by some of Yip’s early students. So there’s plenty of heresay floating around. I guess all the talk on this forum about adding this or that technique to Wing Chun demonstrates your point that cross-fertilization couldn’t happen.

The “sailor story” has been taken out of context by people. It was just a hypothetical scenario, just like most of Wing Chun’s “true history”. So how about this: I’ve met a Weng Chun Kuen master in Europe who claims that his style was a fore-runner of “modern” Yip Man wing chun. The style was also referred to as “Southern Tai Chi” or “Small Circle Tai Chi”. It has plenty of similarity to Wing Chun, doesn’t have chi sao (but does have something like the more common Tai Chi Push-hands), doesn’t focus on chain punching and center-line attacks, nor are the knees together when in kim yeung mah, etc. It really does seem like a style of kung fu “between” Tai Chi and Wing Chun.

So if its true that Yip Man WC “sprouted” from it, why did it change? Maybe western “boxing” influences, maybe not. You, Keith, are certainly not going to tell me the answer with authority because you weren’t there.

And let’s look at the context of when the idea was put forth: in the early to mid 80’s Wing Chun was going through its “branding phase”. William Cheung had put forth his version of WC history and grandmasters were crawling out of the woodwork. There were high profile challenge fights, finger-pointing, etc. And in that climate there was little serious public debate about the existence of Ng Mui and the veracity of WC’s history prior to Yip Man (except for the aforementioned Cheung version). It took some courage to write an article which suggested that WC’s origins needed to be re-examined. Even more-so since it didn’t fit the Oriental-centric point-of-view we all take for granted. Today, with all the research on different lineages etc. this doesn’t seem too radical. Back then it was plenty of ammunition for a fight.

And finally, it should be pointed out that Karl Godwin is not a “guy” off the street but someone who has an extremely deep knowledge and ability in Wing Chun. He should be better known for that than one article that seems to have enflamed so much discussion through the years. Unlike some of the people on this forum he tends to keep a low profile, and lets his hands do the talking. If you want to test your skill than I suggest you seek his school out next time you’re in Florida.

[anerlich]

Unlike some of the people on this forum he tends to keep a low profile, and lets his hands do the talking.

Which would explain why he wrote the article and submitted it to Black Belt.

AS pointed out by several posters, skill in WC (of whatever level) has little correlation with historical veracity.

He might be right. The "Weng Chun master", whoever he is, might be right. Leung Ting might be right (though generally not about a WC/T guy beating two Muay Thai boxers). Somewhat unlikely that *all* are right though.

There are lots of problems with the various "Yip Man" versions of history, and more recent "revelations". Lots of legend and fable and exaggeration.

I don't have any problem with the notion that Wing Chun guys might have learned or stolen stuff from Western boxers. Jeez, that happens in my academy right now. Anyone with a brain would look at something that worked and try to adapt it to what they do.

But there's little hard evidence, especially for the conjecture that the entire system was based on it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

The premise of this whole thread is ridiculous.

The origin of Wing Chun is NOT western boxing.

Enough said.

[excellent2bu]

Originally posted by anerlich


Which would explain why he wrote the article and submitted it to Black Belt.



Well, at least he's not putting press releases on his homepage like some people... do you guys have a marketing department or just a media consultant?

My inference was that Karl's approach to WC has more to do with quality over quantity, and no interest in "empire building".

Keep in mind that back then there wasn't the net where anyone could publish/debate ideas to a world audience. Magazines were pretty much it.

Hey?! What do I see on your homepage:

"The Secret History of Wing Chun: The Truth Revealed"

I won't diss your article, only point out that I'm glad that someone finally discovered the truth through the sands of time. :) I will note that there isn't much discussion on evolution of technique, only who might have been where, etc. Now if you had published this back in 80's you might have "ruffled more feathers" (as the article states).



Originally posted by anerlich

I don't have any problem with the notion that Wing Chun guys might have learned or stolen stuff from Western boxers. Jeez, that happens in my academy right now. Anyone with a brain would look at something that worked and try to adapt it to what they do.

But there's little hard evidence, especially for the conjecture that the entire system was based on it.

For the last time, it was never the ORIGINAL conjecture in the first place that the entire system was based on it. (I emphasise your point in the first paragraph.)

[excellent2bu]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
The premise of this whole thread is ridiculous.

The origin of Wing Chun is NOT western boxing.

Enough said.

Thanks Victor, speaking of ridiculous threads I stumbled across this thread when I tried searching to refresh my memory of the William Cheung version of the history of Wing Chun.

It's entitled "William Cheung vs. My Mom"

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12798

For some reason William Cheung is losing in the voting. You need to send your students to vote for him...

[Nick Forrer]

wow..just registered and already trolling..geez if I ever need to learn how to make friends and influence people I know where to come

[anerlich]

For the last time, it was never the ORIGINAL conjecture in the first place that the entire system was based on it.

It was the conjecture as posed by the original poster, to which I was referring.

We don't need a marketing department or media consultant (and I don't think my Sifu has ever issued a press release), but it sounds like you need a bit of help in working well with others. At least you seem to be distributing the insults equally.

Always amusing to be lectured on forum behaviour by those who need more help than those they criticise.

[Ernie]

of course wing chun doesn't come from boxing
if it did more wing chun people would know how to fight :D

[KenWingJitsu]

of course wing chun doesn't come from boxing if it did more wing chun people would know how to fight

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

tuth and light brother, truth and light.

[Gangsterfist]

Ernie,

Again you crack me up bro. I had a similar discussion with people who think they can tan sao a good boxer's hook.


Rene-

It is my understanding that a lot of southern systems of kung fu were "influenced" by western boxing. Thus there are some similarities. Also, if you look at a lot of southern systems (internal, external, etc) they all share at least some similarities in foot work and in technique. I have learned some southern dragon kung fu and it has some similar aspects to wing chun. Since you seem very knowledgeable in the history dept. can you tell me your thoughts of influences and connections between southern systems of kung fu and how it is influenced by western boxing?

[KPM]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
wow..just registered and already trolling..geez if I ever need to learn how to make friends and influence people I know where to come


Yea! And he called ME obnoxious! :-)

Keith

[Ultimatewingchun]

How about we hijack this thread and start talking about ways to put some boxing together with wing chun (ie. - a straight stiff lead as a way to come in and gain the inside position...so that the shorter range wing chun striking/trapping can come into play).

Just one example.

[Ernie]

victor

then we would have get into footwork , timing ,distance , fakes ,angles , elevation changes , conditioning , sparring
rythem, etc,,,,,,,

oh my good we might really cover some fighting applications !

nah better to play it safe and dream about chi power and tan sau against hooks


wake me up when it's over

[saifa5k]

Originally posted by kj


I have seen and read the text asserting this theory.
Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Hi KJ,
Yes I can certainly verfiy that cant I, LOL. FWIW I tend to believe that wing chun originated in China. However in central Florida Karl Godwin is a very highly respected wingchun instructer. Who knows, maybe the "old man" really did tell him that story and either the old man was full of it or there did exist a lost art. I am skeptical but still believe in keeping an open mind.

Dave c

[saifa5k]

Originally posted by excellent2bu

And finally, it should be pointed out that Karl Godwin is not a “guy” off the street but someone who has an extremely deep knowledge and ability in Wing Chun. He should be better known for that than one article that seems to have enflamed so much discussion through the years. Unlike some of the people on this forum he tends to keep a low profile, and lets his hands do the talking. If you want to test your skill than I suggest you seek his school out next time you’re in Florida.

- Sean

I wish to second the above statement. Karl Godwin is my teachers Sifu. While I am certainly no expert what I have observed first hand from visiting other schools and styles of wing chun is that the wing chun that Sifu Godwin teaches is the real deal. From what I know about the man he would not just make something up for the hell of it.
Dave Cobb