hitting power

[red5angel]

I've met some pretty hard hitters on both sides of the internal external kungfu fence, but in my experience, the external guys consistantly hit harder the the internal guys. My theory goes that external arts tend to attract more physically powerful people then the internal arts, who generally attract smaller people who believe they can utilize the internal power generation better then they could external.

[CD Lee]

The internal guys I have been hit with are big and strong, and hit very hard. There are also a lot of externalists than can't hit hard at all. Internalists too.

It is my theory that a lot of people never learn to hit really hard in either systems. However, that said, I think a person that has a serious power problem would have better luck striking internally with better alignment of structure, than externally. All else being equal, their body is a better weapon than their weak arms or bad coordination, whatever is causing the power loss. Assuming they put in the time to learn to coordinate their bodies and stepping as a weapon. Thats a big assumption.

[red5angel]

what I should say is that I've been hit harder by external guys. I've certainly been hit hard enough by internal guys that the point may be moot to some extant.

[Shaolinlueb]

i've seen a master just swipe his hand across someones chest and leave black and blue marks. i kid you not.

[red5angel]

I've heard stories like that before, mostly from the internal crowd, and usually chi related or something. I've never personally seen anything close to that, so have to take it with a grain of salt. Not calling you a lier there shaolinlueb, just saying I've never seen it so currently can't include that sort of performance in my current paradigm.

[Shaolinlueb]

if i didnt see it with my own eyes i wouldnt believe it at all. he later told the kid he was gonna die in 5 days. the kid was like what. the master said. im jk. that was a good 5/6 years ago.

[Pork Chop]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
i've seen a master just swipe his hand across someones chest and leave black and blue marks. i kid you not.

My friend Mark said that he saw a ninja totally uppercut some kid just because the kid opened a window.




sorry dude, couldn't resist....

[yenhoi]

What do you mean by "external" and "internal."

:rolleyes:

[yenhoi]

I saw a MT guy once just swipe his elbow accross some guys forehead and made him bleed into his eyes. I kid you not.

;)

[Meat Shake]

I have a ninja that hides around my house always popping out of the shadows to kick me in the jimmy.
******* ninja.

[red5angel]

What do you mean by "external" and "internal."

Well, since you gave me the rolly eye thing I'll either have to explain myself or kick your a$$, and since your not due here in the north until August, you'll have to settle for an explanation, for now.
I don't buy into all the labels martial artist used to seperate themselves. I can understand the differences in training for "internal" and "external". It turns out that while one may train mostly in one way, no art is exclusively one or the other, and there aren't any hard lines between the two in my opinion either.
however, Internal guys rely on a structure, depending on what art they are practicing, to deliver most of their power for them, instead of muscle power. A wing chun straight punch is a good example of this, it comes down the center because it helps to line up just so, and you can put your weight behind it, and deliver enough power.
Externalists have their own type of structure as well, but they are less finicky about it, because muscle power and speed are high on the list of ways to deliver power. A boxer, while having structure and connection, still uses more "muscle" then a wingchun guy for the most part.

[IronFist]

He told him he was going to die 5 days later? What a jerk. Even if he was kidding. If he did that to me I would have shat myself in the 2 seconds before he told me he was kidding.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by IronFist
He told him he was going to die 5 days later? What a jerk. Even if he was kidding. If he did that to me I would have shat myself in the 2 seconds before he told me he was kidding.

He is an excellent kung fu teacher and you would want to learn from him. probably one of the best according to my sifu who has trained all around the usa and world. but not a very good friend type.

[yenhoi]

Thats cool and all red5, but what "arts" are internal and what "arts" are external?

Jack Dempsey, Farmer Burns and others seemed to care alot about structure (and breath.) Dan Inosanto, Khun Kao, Frank Shamrock, and Mat Thorton too.

:eek:

[red5angel]

Well in th einternal category you have - Xingyi, Pakau, Luihepafa and taichi as the big ones. Probably a few small ones out there as well. Wingchun can be approached from an almost purely internal way of thinking although most people choose the quicker external path, either way works. I don't know of any others off hand, but I've heard others include a little of both. External is too long a list.

[SevenStar]

I've seen dr. yang-jwing-ming touch someone's shoulder and make his entire arm go limp.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by red5angel
what I should say is that I've been hit harder by external guys. I've certainly been hit hard enough by internal guys that the point may be moot to some extant. LOL :D
.
.
.
and I know you're not joking! :eek:
Been there man, been there!


Meat Shake
I have a ninja that hides around my house always popping out of the shadows to kick me in the jimmy.
******* ninja.You see, if the ninja hangs around inside your house, it's internal. If he hangs around outside your house, it's external. If he kicks your jimmy right up there into the roof of your mouth, it's internal. If he just taps it with the top of his foot, like the secret Chinese kungfu ninja technique 'monkey slaps up a peach melba', it's external. Aaah, the versatility of those ninja!

Seven, are you winding us up?! :confused:

[dodger87]

One of my friend does breathing exercises in his kung fu class so that must be internal right? Well he's got the hitting power of an average person but he can take pain really well. He can leave his arm in the door way and let us slam the door (its a sliding door by the way) as hard as we can and keep it there for a long period of time squishing his arm. We can boot the hell out of his legs and shins and he won't twitch at all.

[CD Lee]

What I like about internal hitting, at least in Xingyi, not sure about the others internals, is that the effect of my strike is far more pronounced, than an external strike. What I mean, is that I could get my fist going faster externally, and it would seem to hit hard on the target, sometimes really hard. You know, the bag would just SMACK! And you could feel the strike all the way up your arm solid.

With Xingyi, to be honest, my strike does not impact with the same initial smack, but the strike is much more solid, and the bag moves 2x as far. It is more like a harpoon, that pentrates and explodes. But the legs drive the strike in a wrecking ball type manner. Now I can feel the strike all the way into the ground through my structure. Anyways, this was a very touch concept for me for a long time, as our style is more of a soft ‘hidden’ power style of Xingyi. Which means to me at least, there is no chambering, and the strikes don’t really look like a typical strike.

Getting hit by the guys doing it a long time is akin to a cattle prod to me. You see the strike coming, doesn’t look that bad, he’s taking it easy, BOOM!!! Holy crap, man, that was solid. How did he do that? Hehehe :D :D

[red5angel]

One of my friend does breathing exercises in his kung fu class so that must be internal right?

hmmmm, not really sure that is classified as "internal" per se, but more just associated with internal arts and concepts. What I'm talking about really is more about mechanics.

I was thinking about something the other day on this. Do you guys think it would be proper to say that internal arts compensate some for the loss of power, but throwing in more quantity? A good example is the "straight blast" some wingchun guys use.

[CFT]

Originally posted by red5angel
I was thinking about something the other day on this. Do you guys think it would be proper to say that internal arts compensate some for the loss of power, but throwing in more quantity? A good example is the "straight blast" some wingchun guys use. Body mechanics is no less important in Wing Chun. Although most peoples' perception of Wing Chun punching is that it relies on speed and the "windmilling" chain punch for powerful punching, this is far from the case.

All serious practitioners of WC stress the importance of structure to develop/deliver power in striking. If you read any kind of text on WC mechanics and ignore all obvious references to WC, you would think that you were reading about an "internal" art. Similar emphasis is placed on structure in other so-called external arts.

[red5angel]

if it seemed I wa simplying it was no less important then WC, then my bad. WC realies heavily on strcuture, hence it's reputation for being good for smaler fighers or in close fighting. however, some people treat WC as an external art for the most part (maybe not conciously) with a few internal concepts thrown in.

and dont' get me started on that flailing "straigt blast" thing LT and EBMAS are spreading around.

[yenhoi]

"straightblast" is not wing chun.

"chain punching" is wing chun.

Neither is just throwing many straight punches in a row as a combo or technique.

Chain punching is a concept or principle, when you have the line and connect, keep the line and keep conecting. When you have hit someone you actually occupy the space it takes to hit them again.

Straight blast is more techniqueish in that you can consider it simply running at your opponent with alternating straight punches. Straight blast as a technique is not to cause damage but to force one of several "common" reactions or responses or one of several "correct" reactions or responses.

I dont think either in their correct sense and context as training methods, concepts or even at the most basic technique level have anything to do with quantity to compensate for lack of speed or power.

:eek:

[red5angel]

Neither is just throwing many straight punches in a row as a combo or technique.


I understand that...and you understand that...I'm wiling to bet there are a few more people outthere who understand that. now you just have to take the word to the people there Yenmaster

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by CD Lee
What I like about internal hitting, at least in Xingyi, not sure about the others internals, is that the effect of my strike is far more pronounced, than an external strike. What I mean, is that I could get my fist going faster externally, and it would seem to hit hard on the target, sometimes really hard. You know, the bag would just SMACK! And you could feel the strike all the way up your arm solid.

a hard, penetrating strike should not "smack"

With Xingyi, to be honest, my strike does not impact with the same initial smack, but the strike is much more solid, and the bag moves 2x as far.


doesn't that simply signify merely a push? When my muay thai coach kicks the bag hard, it doesn't move much - it just folds in half.


It is more like a harpoon, that pentrates and explodes. But the legs drive the strike in a wrecking ball type manner. Now I can feel the strike all the way into the ground through my structure.

How is that different from an external strike?

[Ikken Hisatsu]

I was just going to comment on that. you want a dull heavy thud from the bag, not a smack. and pushing does not equal power, bending the bag in half does. and if you hadnt noticed, all good MA use their entire body in a punch, its not something secret to internal MA.

[Souljah]

Hvae any of you guys ever played Sonic Blast Man??

:rolleyes:

[CD Lee]

SevenStar Said:


a hard, penetrating strike should not "smack"


Smack is a subjective term. Not a slap smack, a deep thud smack. Good point.



doesn't that simply signify merely a push? When my muay thai coach kicks the bag hard, it doesn't move much - it just folds in half.


No. I understand your question however. It is a strike, not a push. A solid driving strike into the bag. Now you can push the bag without a strike well enough, but this is a strike. Just to be clear.

I said:
It is more like a harpoon, that pentrates and explodes. But the legs drive the strike in a wrecking ball type manner. Now I can feel the strike all the way into the ground through my structure.



How is that different from an external strike?


It has a different subtlety. Hard to explain. I am not saying it is superior just different in application.

Ikken said:


and if you hadnt noticed, all good MA use their entire body in a punch, its not something secret to internal MA.


Wow. Your tone seems so confrontational. Who said secret? Who here has said internals are superior to externals? Nobody that I have seen…

Yes I have noticed, being a boxing fan my whole life. However, all martial artists that DO use their whole body in a punch, do NOT use their whole bodies the same exact way. A great boxer, usually with say a right cross, turn pivot, and drive the shot with their legs and hips in coordination for great power. But in a right cross, they are 99% of the time transferring from back to front foot, with the strike timed to hit the target at the transfer or close to the end of the weight transfer. It is a great shot and powerful.

In Xingyi, at least the Xingyi I have seen, the strikes are delivered with the back foot still weighted during the middle of a full step, with alignments used for a lot of the structural power, and the legs literally throwing the body at the person. Not better or worse, just a different mechanic in delivering the strike. They both have advantages and disadvantages in a fight. Remember, every method to strike has SOME tradeoff somewhere. In Xingyi, your are going to be in their face, in the centerline, and seeking to control their balance from the first touch, and never releasing the pressure once it starts. In boxing, you usaually want more distance to throw your shots with full power.

And let me also comment, Xingyi is only one internal art, and I think it is pretty different in application than Bagua or Tai Chi. Same principles, but very different in application.