Teaching Sifu's

[justabean]

My Sifu doesn't teach anymore. The school seems to be run solely by seniors and advanced students. I know I can name lots of Grandmasters, Masters, Sifu's that still teach in their own school.

Does anyone else train with this similar situation? With a Desk Sifu who is maybe available for a few questions but doesn't teach anymore? There's more to the story of what is being passed on to seniors, but we'll start with this.

Thanks,
Justabean trying to get some sleep.
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[kungfu cowboy]

You should sneak up on him, jump him and tickle him until he wee's in his kungfu pants.

[Gangsterfist]

My sifu has the rank of master ( I guess if you want to get into the rank system). He is technically my sigung, before I trained with one of his students and times have recently changed so I train with him now. His class a lot of seniors run the class. He still teaches but doesn't really touch hands with you, or spar you. He lets the senior students do that. After you train with him for a few years (this is what I have gathered) you can stay later after normal class for the instructors class. Sifu teaches all the seniors on how to be instructors in kung fu. So once you work your way up to being a senior student, you get to stay for the instructors classes (or advanced classes I guess). However, I have no idea what the difference is, I just started training with sifu about 2 weeks ago. Before all my previous training has been with my first sifu, who unfortunately had to move away.

So, I think its a common thing to have seniors run class. Especially in a big class that way you can split up into groups and seniors can teach certain things to certain students in smaller groups and then sifu can walk around all the different groups working on different things and correct them as need be.

[justabean]

Problem is...my Sifu doesn't leave his office. He doesn't come around and correct us. He doesn't even teach the instructors anymore and this causes problems when one teacher shows you something and another says you're doing it wrong.

Sometimes he's not there at all either. Sometimes the seniors are soley running classes. Sometimes he's late for meetings, plus more. I guess it's just a respect thing.

It's hard to talk to your instructors/Sifu about things - because I don't ever want to feel like I'm attacking personally.

Anywho,
Justabean trying to get some sleep.
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[Ernie]

just got around to this thread ,
the reasons you list and the problems you face are the exact reason why when my teacher told me it was time for me to teach I didn't even consider a '' school'' environment , only private or semi private training situations . I have always felt if your paying some one to teach you then that person should get off his ass and teach you , not his number 1,2,3,4 or what ever student .

this is were people get greedy and create little barriers , like ranks or levels before you get to work out with the guy your paying in the first place , or even worse you can only address him in a private $$$$$$ session . fukdat
I have never had to do a single private with my teacher I could always just walk right up and ask him a question and get a hands on answer , and that to me is the only way to do it .

sure your seniors can help you and dial you in , since it's part of there learning to teach as well , but only after your teacher has given a hands on demo and he should be over seeing the seniors teach and jump in when he picks up something that's not quite right .

this also gets into that stupid '' inner circle '' crap , if your paying a man to give you his information it should be given openly , not partially or only to the select few that can pay more . next time you feel like your sifu is not holding up his end or only giving you partial information unless you achieve a certain family rank , the just partially pay his a$$
and see how he likes it =)

my advice is find another school or person you can train with why be in such a seedy environment

[CFT]

Hmmm .... my situation is somewhat different.

My sifu no longer actively teaches Wing Chun, but has concentrated on teaching 7 Star Praying Mantis. I'm not sure whether he continues teaching his instructors WC or not. In any case, some or most of the instructors also seem to be versed in Mantis and Yang Tai Chi (or permutations).

He is still active in the grading process, so there is still some degree of quality control, just not on a lesson by lesson basis. This implies that he has confidence in the quality of his instructors.

Am I disappointed? Yes, but I am also pretty satisfied with the quality of teaching so far. But then I have nothing to compare to. My only problem is with the length of the lesson ... could do with another half hour.

[FSY]

At a major research University, you'll see the same type of thing a lot of the time. I was a science major so the professors usually taught the classes, but the T.A.'s (teaching assistants--who are usually grad students with more than five years of college under their belts and who are working on their master or doctorate degrees) ran most of the laboratory classes while the professors made rounds to ensure that everything was good to go.

As a University student, you are given the privilege/opportunity of watching experts work. In my case, I was able to look over the shoulders of world renown scientists, some of whom had invented new medicines or made groundbreaking discoveries. These folks had the job of GUIDING and INSPIRING us by showing us what and how to study, and by clarifying stuff during lectures; however, most of the learning takes place outside of the classroom--reading your textbook, practicing what you've learned, applying and thinking about the theories, coming up with new ideas, etc...

A professor (or Sifu) is only one person. They need to rely on their T.A.'s (or advanced students) to do a lot of the teaching. These higher students should be more than qualified to teach the newbies the basics, whether these basics are Wing Chun or scientific ones. Of course the professor/sifu will often instruct the class or at least check on things to make corrections/suggestions, however, their valuable time is often better spent helping the higher level students and/or working on their projects which will further add to the knowledge base which affects the whole discipline. I frequently felt honored to even be in the same room with some of my college professors, even though I was paying tuition to be there. I learned the basics (i.e. scientifc method) just fine from the T.A.'s who were very knowledgeable and handpicked by my professors.

At my Wing Chun school, the Sifu is often in his office talking to prospective students or doing whatever. I look at this as an important thing for him to do. Afterall, I'd rather learn some of the basics from my Sihings (who are very skilled) while Sifu takes care of business, than have the school close because we couldn't pay for the rent and other expenses of our kwoon. If Sifu was out playing golf, and if my Sihings didn't know what they were doing, then it would be a different story of course; but as it stands now, the students who put in the concerted effort and time into learning at my school are doing just fine.

Everyone has a different situation, obviously, so you should trust your instincts on whether or not you're being "cheated" out of an education. However, a student-teacher relationship in a martial arts school or a university always has and always will rely on teaching assistants. Learning is a different endeavor than paying for someone to fix your car or make you a hamburger, even though technically they all involve the offering of services.

[Gangsterfist]

Good post FSY. My sifu no longer runs the business side of the kwoon, my sihing does. This allows sifu to spend more time with his students and not worry so much about money and costs.

However, that comment about sifu out playing golf made me laugh. I just envisioned all these sifus playing golf together and making jokes about their dumb students and how they weren't even teaching them real kung fu. I think that could make a good comedey sketch.

[reneritchie]

Dunno. My sifu, almost 70, still teaches his beginners every class, and punches for them, and works with them.

Hi sifu, the late Sum Nung, despite a 60 year teaching career, 100s of students, and a vast legacy, still taught one-on-one up until the end. He believed you had to sweat with your students to properly teach them.

Maybe some get bored, disenchanted, get lazy, get aloof, or whatever, but I personally believe if you're going to teach, you should teach fully.

[kj]

It might be useful to ask ourselves "Are learning what we need to learn, and from someone capable of helping us to properly grow and develop?"

In the end, this may be more a more important question than who assumes which title or role.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[reneritchie]

It might be useful to ask ourselves "Are learning what we need to learn, and from someone capable of helping us to properly grow and develop?"

I would bat that one back by asking if we are learning what we need to learn as EFFICIENTLY as possible, and from the person BEST capable of helping us to properly grow and develop?

Maybe 'cause I ain't no spring chicken no more, but I make it a point to find the people who can teach me (not just show me) the most in the least amount of time and get my practical skill improved the fastest possible. I just don't have time to waste.

I have little time for titles or what not either, but I have been in situations in other arts where I learned 'okay' from a senior classmate only to later realize 'okay' wasn't good enough. I needed to start with 'best possible' and go from there. That's what I do now.

[kj]

Originally posted by reneritchie
I would bat that one back by asking if we are learning what we need to learn as EFFICIENTLY as possible, and from the person BEST capable of helping us to properly grow and develop?


I concur with these qualifiers.

As a caveat, an answer in these more specific terms may be somewhat more speculative than conclusive, and as you and I know all too well, subject to perennial debate. It is nonetheless worth some effort to ascertain a confident answer for oneself.

As an "old timer" myself (with more than a few years even on you ...) I can keenly relate to the sense of urgency, and appreciate the value of wisely investing one's time and energy.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[justabean]

Thanks for the great responses. The issue is much greater than just a master not teaching anymore, but I don't know who else may brief this forum so I can't be too specific. This was a little bit of a vent and a little bit discusion.

Firstly I have a problem with "standardization" of techniques that we learn. I'm a little, um, anal? ;) ..and I like to learn something right the first time and not have it changed 3 times while learning the same technique/theory from 3 different instructors. I understand that martial arts evolve, but theories shouldn't. Just a thought and an anality (is that a word?).

I agree that I could pick up the best from one of my master's best students. That is what I'm trying and will continue to try.

Secondly, he's not always there. He's not spending time with the senior teachers. He comes out of his office once in a while to look, but not correct.

Thirdly, I know there's lots more to martial arts than gradings, but when you're in a school that has a grading system - obviously you want to progress. It really seems like the marketing is geared towards new students and that the teacher's focus are the students who have just joined up. The people who have been there for a while are getting the shaft. The new students are being pumped full of grading components while the rest of the kwoon is being "ignored."

I find it hard to come forth and complain. I want to finish this system. It's my top priority and I'll do it, but I have to push forward by myself. When I first started I felt like a team player. Like I was part of a group. Now as I move up the ranks, I feel like I'm in it by myself.

Thanks for keeping this thread alive,
Justabean trying to get some sleep.
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[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by justabean
Thanks for the great responses. The issue is much greater than just a master not teaching anymore, but I don't know who else may brief this forum so I can't be too specific. This was a little bit of a vent and a little bit discusion.

Firstly I have a problem with "standardization" of techniques that we learn. I'm a little, um, anal? ;) ..and I like to learn something right the first time and not have it changed 3 times while learning the same technique/theory from 3 different instructors. I understand that martial arts evolve, but theories shouldn't. ...

The way any technique is executed will physically express your understanding of the theory or theories (principle/concept) behind the technique. So if three different instructors offer three different theories for the same technique they may all be explaining different parts of the same elephant. Since you are learning new techniques, the whole experience is "learning it the first time." Take a look at the big picture and ask questions! If you still don't get it ask more questions!!


Originally posted by justabean

I agree that I could pick up the best from one of my master's best students. That is what I'm trying and will continue to try.

Persistince is a good virtue.


Originally posted by justabean

Secondly, he's not always there. He's not spending time with the senior teachers. ....

Thirdly, I know there's lots more to martial arts than gradings, ... It really seems like the marketing is geared towards new students and that the teacher's focus are the students who have just joined up. The people who have been there for a while are getting the shaft. The new students are being pumped full of grading components while the rest of the kwoon is being "ignored."


It has been said the teacher should be heavily involved in only the begging and end. The middle is for the student to learn for himself. Hopefully your sifu is not "ignoring" the rest of your kwoon but realizes that a sifu is a key the part of the means rather than the ends of an idividuals kung fu journey.


Originally posted by justabean

I find it hard to come forth and complain. I want to finish this system. It's my top priority and I'll do it, but I have to push forward by myself. When I first started I felt like a team player. Like I was part of a group. Now as I move up the ranks, I feel like I'm in it by myself.


Kung fu is a personal journey. To "finish" the system is a lofty goal and one that may take a lifetime. As you move up you may notice the group you started with has thinned out. That may play toward your feelings. If you're progressing in your kung fu, you're still "part of the group."

-David

[anerlich]

Both my teachers still actively train and teach several classes a week, after 41 and 30 years of training respectively.

My current teacher runs a full time school. As he says, if you're taking the money you better be putting in the effort. But common sense requires that he no longer try to run every class himself.

At some time in an advanced student's life, he/she should start teaching, both for his own development and also for the benefit of his teacher and juniors.

Your training has to start being about more than just you and your goals if you are to really mature as an MAist.

If you've been doing this stuff for ten years, you should be able to teach it. It's not brain surgery or rocket science.

That said, both MA and teaching are skills that require constant maintenance and practice if one is to move forward and not backslide.

It sounds to me like your guy could just be resting on his laurels and letting other people do what he should be doing. Treating the senior students (or, even worse only some of the senior students) like an elite is IMO extremely bad for an academy. If seniors get any rewards, it should be as a result of service to the school and students, not for sucking up to the instructor. Anyone who pays fees should be able to go directly to the head of the school at any time if he has questions.

[macaulay]

Justabean,
Have you discussed your issue with any of the other students at your level? -or an instructor or your sifu? Perhaps the solution is in your school rather than on the internet. Just thinking out loud.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Have read all of the posts on this thread; and actually, justabean, I think kungfucowboy has the best advice of all:

"You should sneak up on him (your desktop sifu), jump him, and tickle him until he wee wee's in his kungfu pants."

And then get the hell out of that school.

[Tak]

Originally posted by justabean
I want to finish this system. It's my top priority and I'll do it, but I have to push forward by myself.

Just be sure to save your powerups - the end guy is really hard - it'll probably take a couple of free guys.

[Matrix]

Tak,......Great advice!!
Do you have any good cheat codes? :D

[black and blue]

I feel lucky that where I currently train, there is a group of about 15 of us... and that's it. So small numbers, class taken by Sifu everytime, he makes a point of engaging with everyone each class, even if only for a short time...

... and the cost of training is minimal.

He's clearly not in it for the money... just in it for the love of transferring the art.

I have trained elsewhere and found there to be a fair number of classes/groups/organizations where you don't get hands-on with the main man... something very, very frustrating.

[justabean]

<Quote:
macaulay Justabean,
Have you discussed your issue with any of the other students at your level? -or an instructor or your sifu? Perhaps the solution is in your school rather than on the internet. Just thinking out loud.>

Firstly, I want to thank everyone for their responses. Some in support for talking/working things out and just like any other debate - some for me walking out. For now, I'd like to ask macaulay why they can't pick up the phone and let their fingers do the walking. :)

Let's review the post:
1. First, a winking face.
2. Location is Calgary.
3. Registered 06-05-04 and posted 06-07-04. Hm. New member.
4 Practises Wing Chun.
5. Only 6 or so Wing Chun schools in Calgary, with 2 being in the Yellow Pages.
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Anywho, thanks for thinking out loud. It has been recommended that it's in my best interest that I do not post here anymore, so for now this topic is dead. PM's allowed. Talk to you all soon.

Sincerely,
justabean

[macaulay]

Justabean,
Hey, lets get together for coffee. I will listen and not judge. I am easy to find. We can exchange numbers by email.

Ian

[JAFO]

I think a lot depends on how the instruction is done. There's a big difference between the schools that operate primarily as big classes vs. those that instruct primarily one-on-one or in very small groups of 5 or 6 or even less. It's no wonder that some of the most reputable Sifus have had very small schools with only a few students at any given time. For all his many students, Yip Man supposedly only 'finished' 4 individuals in his lifetime. It's hard to get any kind of consistency on a large scale. For those few instructors who can actually pull that off, I salute them because they are very much in the minority.

You really gotta wonder how many times any Sifu needs to teach the basics to beginners. Even if they love it, it is possible to burn out after a while. How many times have we watched a Sifu spend hours and hours on a beginner only to have them up and quit after a couple months? It's gotta be pretty frustating to watch all your hard work walk out the door, regardless of the reason.

My Sifu would generally prefer to do all of his own instruction, but sometimes there just isn't enough of him to go around. My lessons generally go for at least a couple hours at a time and I only occassionally share any of that time with another student. One-on-one is so important in WC. So if the seniors, who have a track record and have already invested a lot of their time and energy in learning WC want to get their fair share, the best way to ensure that there's enough Sifu to go around is for them to step up and take a bit of the load. It helps the beginning student to understand that the techniques and theories don't just work for the Sifu but are attainable by everyone who puts in enough time and effort. It helps the seniors both by freeing the Sifu up a little to teach them and by reinforcing their own basics through instruction. It helps the Sifu to more evenly balance his/her time and attention across the range of students instead of concentrating mostly on the beginners. The Sifu still makes the rounds and places his mark on everyone, but his time can be more evenly divided and better used rather than being constantly concentrated on the most basic instructional functions.

Obviously, merely being a senior does not, in itself, qualify someone to be an example to others. It requires the student to be knowledgable and articulate enough with the basics to convey it properly to others, as well as possessing a reasonably accurate physical command of them so that a beginner does not start off on the wrong track. Bad habits are much harder to break than to learn.

Using seniors for some of the beginning instruction, particularly with respect to working on drills and practicing techniques is not only practical, its beneficial for everyone involved. It's not about not a Sifu not touching hands, it's about stretching an incredibly valuable resource to reach the widest possible range of students. The alternative is to line everyone up and have them do forms or chain punch in the air for 45 minutes out of the hour. That's not necessarily a bad way to spend your time, but it's not the same thing as learning new material and making new connections.

[anerlich]

Excellent points JAFO.

I still think there's value in the head guy regularly (though, I agree, it doesn't need to be all the time) working with beginners.
It discourages elitism, and show the seniors that the Sifu regards the beginners as actual human beings and as deserving of his time and attention as anyone else.

My academy runs both specialist beginner (and intermediate and advanced) classes but also mixed classes where all grades train together. Sifu doesn't take many specialist beginner classes, but he takes most of the mixed ones, so the beginners regularly get to interact with him.

Personally, I like teaching beginners. Always someone new! And your lesson may be the first exposure they have to what you and your Sifu do! The Moment of Truth if ever there was one.

[Ultimatewingchun]

JAFO, Andrew:

Two excellent posts.
The McDojo method beware!
Eventually - the cream always rises to the top.

[justabean]

Originally posted by macaulay
Justabean,
Hey, lets get together for coffee. I will listen and not judge. I am easy to find. We can exchange numbers by email.

Ian

You've been PM'd.

[Matrix]

Juatabean says that senior students are "solely" responsible for the training, and that's the killer for me.