My take on an age old debate...I know I'm sorry.

[Fu-Pow]

Some things I've been thinking about.....

When we talk about "internal" as in Nei Jia arts (Xing Yi, Taiji, Bagua) we are really talking about maintaining the "frame."

The "frame" = the alignment of the 3 harmonies (shoulders/hips, knees/elbows, ankles/wrists.) In addition, a lengthened spine.

When you have alignment of the 3 harmonies you can "song" (expand/relax) and "Peng" jin (buoyant springiness) manifests.

You'll notice I left Chi out of this altogther. Chi is kind of not really all that important when talking about internal arts. Sorry guys...no Chi blasts out of the palms.

This "buoyancy" can be put to all kinds of interesting uses. For example, "listening" to your opponent through your structure. "Rebounding" people off your structure. "Enveloping" someone into your structure. Slipping inside and then "expanding" your structure to crowd someone out.
Sending a "rebounding pulse" through your structure to hit your opponent. All kinds of stuff you can do. It might seem magical but it's really all a play on this Peng concept.

The concept of "frame" is simple to understand but maintaining it in motion is difficult. This is where most of the focus of internal arts is initially.

External arts do not focus on maintaining the "frame." In fact by Nei Jia standards most of their techniques "collapse" the frame. If you are not using frame then you are most likely using the jerk of muscles followed by momentum which is then followed by the tensing of muscles to slow the momentum. The power is jerkier with starts and stops. You are relaxed most of the time but you don't manifest Peng energy because you lack frame.

However, a lot of striking power can be generated this way. The bigger and stronger you are the more momentum you can generate. Furthermore, you can often strike your opponent WHILE "closing the gap" without any set up.

That's my take. Nothing mystical or magical involved.


:D

[Christopher M]

What about open-close, dantian movement, and yi?

[rubthebuddha]

FP -- you sure you don't do wing chun? :D

sad thing is, the closest i get to "harmony" is when boys2men sing during the an nba halftime show. :(

[bamboo_ leaf]

(External arts do not focus on maintaining the "frame." In fact by Nei Jia standards most of their techniques "collapse" the frame)

I would say that you have it backwards. Interanal arts start with the idea of a frame but don¡¦t end there. At some point the ideas of shen, yi, qi.dictate the look and actions that one takes which are not directly based on maintaining an outer frame.

Saying that other arts ignor the concepts of alignment, seems strange, all the CMA that I have exprinced was pretty precise about maintaining and using structor in there actions.

There things that make something like taiji for example internal are the direct use of concepts and ideas related to movement before it is manfisted externaly. First in ones self and then much later in others. This is what one works with.

Concepts that are not well understood are often confuesed with magic, just as our sicince of today would seem magical to someone from the past. Or if you get a chance to read about some high level physics (string theroy) it might seem very mistical to those who don¡¦t understand it.

Yep, nothing mystical or magical about IMA, does take a lot of hard work to get it. ;)

[shaolinboxer]

To study the internal arts without releasing or developing chi is more like studying about them than actually studying them.

It is interesting that we think we can get away from the very concept on which they are built.

[blooming lotus]

alot of it structural and yes position and flow of movements will improve and stimulate various qi anyway...to do it aware is better, to do it not may get 1/2 intermediate acheivement.......

[SevenStar]

based on whose standards?

[blooming lotus]

an advanced student :D

or...an internal internal stylist;)

[SevenStar]

Once again, by whose standards? All advanced students are not created equal. And where are these advanced internalists? I've seen some internal guys do awesome stuff, dr. yang-jwing-ming is great, but I've yet to see one who hits with the force of a boxer.

[blooming lotus]

How' Jet LI???...he's an extreme example but they are around....

[omarthefish]

An example of what? An acrobat? A wushu performer? He's pretty intermediate when it comes to the real thing. He's only "advanced" when it comes to performance art.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I'm not certain where the concept of Qi being "mystical" originated, it's not "magic".. it is a difficult concept to describe, even more difficult to quantify.. My current understanding and belief is that Qi is the result of other definable systems within the body.. good alignment, expanded joints, peng, sung, etc..training in all of these definable aspects sets the stage for a "Qi" experience.. where Qi is the "whole" experience and the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.. the relationship of Qi to a life-force is likely just such a situation, that through good training and good lifestyle a heightened experience is manifested.. the heightened experience needed a description and source, and the word Qi worked well for the time..

Now, with proper training and a disciplined lifestyle the Qi experience can be quite remarkable, it can elude scientific definitions since it doesn't exist independently of the rest of its components.. the Qi experience is present at all times but usually diminished without the discipline and training.. it is easy to see how the ancients assumed it to be a separate "substance", but i still feel that is more likely an elusive product of normal systems acting in disciplined harmony.. like adding fuel and heat we get a flame and as we refine the fuel the flame can reach very high intensities.. the Qi experience can be cultivated through our discipline to produce quite remarkable effects.. i don't discount the possibility that at some point in the human evolution we "could" expand the Qi experience in a "projected" manner.. but, i'm certainly not there..

Be well...

[blooming lotus]

here we go again with the definition and validity of qi argument......qi is not exclusive to people taichibob.....???

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings, Blooming Lotus...

Qi, as i understand it, is an effect produced by physical systems acting in harmony, so.. it is likely that some form of Qi is present in all things..

It's like an engine.. the parts (independent systems) produce little if any power individually, but assembled they can produce good power.. then, finely tuned (disciplined harmony) they can even produce more.. Qi being the "power" or effect, a case where the whole (engine) is greater than the sum of its parts..

It's not a big leap of faith to give the QI concept some credit, just remove the "mystical" BS and look at the evidence..

Be well..

[red5angel]

taichibob - good explanation for the most part on the idea of Qi. I believe it is a word created to help define things that occur through biomechanics for the most part, but weren't easily understood way back in the day. Nothing mystical or magical about it and it's all in the natural order of things.

[Fu-Pow]

Qi development is a by product of IMA training but is it an end goal? I don't think so.

I tend to think of Qi as bioelectrical energy. The bioelectric fields of the body are clearly established. When the body is relaxed (ie through martial training) the Qi and blood can flow freely.

There is definitely a connection between the mind and Qi, as well as mind and blood. When the mind is relaxed (ie through meditation) I believe it can sense or percieve the electrical currents of the body. Furthermore the mind can direct these fields to some extent. Where the mind goes the Qi goes, as the saying goes.

But does Qi in and of itself have anything to offer in a obviously martial sense?

I don't think so. The bioelectricity in the body is very weak, meaning very low voltage. I reject the claims that people can "shock" other people with Qi or that they can project it outside of their own body. Most demonstrations in this regard are nothing more than parlor tricks. (BTW, I do think that high level Qi gong practitioners may be able to sense electric fields in other people, points of stagnation, tension, etc.)

Qi is more like a signpost of good martial training rather than the end goal.

The more important end goals are Peng energy, alignment, listening "energy", borrowing strength, etc.

[Royal Dragon]

What's all this nosense about Qi?

As far as I'M concerned, internal means power is generated from the core body, and radiates out in all directions.

External the power is generated in the limbs. The core body is not really used in the power generation. It's mostly used to brace, or connect the power gerated by the limbs (Ie: Legs move hips, move torso, move shoulders and finally arms).

You see a hip generated twisting motion in external.

In the internal, it's an expansion/ contraction like motion of the core body, similar to an accordian.

It's that simple.

[blooming lotus]

tai chi bob....great explaination....I'm sure more than several people willfind solice here.............

as for the rest....whadd'a you mean is qi relevant to ma??? of course it is....I really don't have ime to do this argument every several weeks, but if someone else wuld like to field it, many people will retrospectively be grateful

[Royal Dragon]

I never said Qi is not relevant to martial arts, however this conversation was intened to discuss the physical, and structural differences between the External, and the Internal.

Qi on the other hand, drives the movement in BOTH types of physical expression, and thearfor is irrelevant to THIS conversation.

[Banjos_dad]

"infrasonic waves?" (http://www.geocities.com/bgaughr/QiEmiss.htm) :cool: