Being a Wing Chun Sifu Sucks!!!!!

[Highlander]

Is it really worth it? The money isn't that good. The dedication it requires is extreme. The appreciation is little at best.

In the thread "Pay your fee get your B" Wingchunner talks about the life long relationship between a Sifu and a student, but that's not the way it really is. It has been my observation that a Sifu is lucky to have 2% of there students last 3 years. We have students that are constantly at Sifu's house. They have dinner. They have parties. Then suddenly they are gone. Not a phone call, not a word. This must tear up a Sifu to constantly dedicate himself to his students only to be discarded with little or no consideration.

Sorry for the vent, but we have a small part-time school in my Sifu's garage. Classes are three times a week. I attend twice a week because it is 60 miles from my house (1.5 hours drive each way). Two months ago we had 16 students. I was actually envious because they were always at Sifu's house getting extra instruction and developing a relationship. Then the weather got nice and last class there was three of us. Before that there was only two. And I know there have been times on the nights that I can't make it that there haven't been any. Add that to always having to prove yourself to perspective students, always having to defend your style, and what's the point. And it's not like this is a one time incident. It's like it's a cycle, build and drop, build and drop.

Anyway, tomorrow night is our annual Oriental Feast at Sifu's house. I hope some people show up. Is it unreasonable to expect people to show their appreciation by showing up, eating his food, and drinking his beer.

Anyway, sorry for the vent, but it tears me up watching this and I really don't know why anyone would willingly subject themself to this over and over again. :confused:

[old jong]

I teach very privately and used to have only three students.All of these are also tkd guys! I taught them all I got and for a symbolic price(20$ a month for 1 or 2 lessons a week!) for at least three years.They where also my training partners as my sifu is living at two hours from my place and I see him only once a month.Well two of them left me with no thanks probably thinking that they where now good enough!No news whatsoever!...This makes me think about all that teaching business.Is a friendly relation possible when teaching?...I know now that I won't give my wing chun to anybody for a "friendly price" ever

C'est la vie!

[Subitai]

Heh, what you said rings so true. In hindsite, I can see how things have changed for my own SIFU over his many long years of teaching. It makes me wonder if I still want to do this...just a little.

You are so correct, only like 1 person in 1000 has the stuff to stick it out with a style. Let alone with a sifu for 3 or more years. (Mabe worse of a figure)

I think it's partly the western culture to blame. Fast, materialistic, pleasure now and never go for wanting type of deal. I get sick to my stomach when I see some fat kid, disrespecting his momma because he can't have the toy or ice cream he wants. His chubby fingers and fat rolls collected nicely on his body. No doubt from countless hours on a Playstation, sitting indian style with a glass of chocolate milk.

Later in life, what kind of student could he possibly be to a good and sincere Sifu.

Americans in general are just plain spoiled by the standard of living and need to travel abroad more to get a firm grip on priorities and thier definition of wealth.

A little more parental discipline would make better students too.

"Go take a time-out" my A$$!!!!!!!

"O"

[John D]

It is a sad and an odd reality in teaching WC that few stay. Teaching WC is perhaps the most difficult art to teach, taking two to three times the amount time to touch every student's hand at every practice. Many if not all burn out and need to rest for a year or two.

In my nearly three decades of WC experience, I would estimate that only one in five will last a year, only one in twenty will finish the open hand curriculum (for me three years, only one in 30 will learn the 6.5 point staff, and finally only one in a 100 will be taught all the sections of the DO.

You teach for the hobby (interest) and the friendships. Pick your students and associates carefully. No matter how much you charge, the time given to teaching can never be retreived if the student quits. My teacher made me wait nearly five months before he starting teaching me. I have no regrets teaching, but I do regret finding so few that have the heart to stay and learn beyond the foundational curriculum and become self-actualized and formless.

Teaching is not for everybody and not everybody can be taught. Feel fortunate if you can pass the WC art on to a few good people in your lifetime.

Respectfully yours,
John DiVirgilio
Hawaii Wing Chun Gung-Fu Assoc.

[TzuChan]

I'm but a beginner, and in Brussels Wing Chun seems to be really rare. I have found but 1 sifu, and it is a 1 hour drive with the car to get there. I am going to start there this summer if I may enter, but the thing is in Belgium that people (as myself sometimes) want to be able to do sh*t in no time. I mean we want to be able to take out twenty guys after 6 months of training :) It sounds weird but it's the truth ! I practiced karate and made that mistake, I started training for 5 months but those **** kata's made me sick (fighting vs invisible opponent) I didn't see the use of it, so I quitted, never said thanks to the teacher .. nothing.. But after a year passed I realised the mistake I made, but the teacher didn't really mind me leaving since he had like 30 students.

Back to the WC, as I said I want to get started and am willing to practice for years with my future sifu, and I can't wait to go to those WC camps during summer. The thing you guys say about 1 in 100 finishes the stuff till the end is like this (in my country at least) :

-You start WC and you start with drills and stuff, afer a couple of months you see you still can't do what the dude can do in the movies, so you quit ! :)

Sad but true. I understand this can be frustrating to many Sifu's. But to all you teachers out there I tell you this, before you let some-one be your student talk to him about what is going to be taught, what'll be the results after say a year etc... And don't take classes from 30 stdents if you're on your own, cause students just wont feel "needed" and will be less motivated.

Ow and something else a teacher (from the real school, I mean the school were they teach you maths, languages etc... :)) If students don't say "Thank you" all the time doesn't mean they don't appreciate what you are doing .

Hope I said something good here :)

You practice Wing Chun ? COntact me on my icq ! 71470721(my name there is "vision")

[Sihing73]

Hello All,

Teaching Wing Chun, or any art can be both a rewarding and a frustrating experience. But it all depends on your motivation and reason for teaching.

Are you teaching in order to pass on the art?
Is it because you enjoy the interaction?
Is it to provide yourself with opportunities to train and get better?
Is it for the money?
Is it for the fame and prestige?

If you teach for EXTERNAL objectives then you are always in danger of falling short and being dissappointed. If however, you decide to teach for INTERNAL reasons, you enjoy it etc, then you can be satisifed regardless of the students reaction. Some will argue this point but if you are secure in yourself you create your own happiness to an extent. You may still be dissapointed but you will be able to deal with such dissapointment more favorably.

I used to teach and have had the same experieinces as others, Some students did not want to pay, some did not want to practice, some did not want to explore the art but have everything handed to them. I chose to stop teaching because I feel I have much more to learn before I am truly qualified to teach anyone else. This plus the fact that my family takes a higher place in my order or priorities.

Now when I visit other Wing Chun schools I sometimes regret my decision to no longer teach as I see some of what is offered. It is an unfortunate fact that most people will not dedicate the time and effort to learn Wing Chun in a traditional manner. Most people want the easy way, the quick fix. If they don't get what they want at one school they will quickly move on to another where they can. There is no loyalty anymore it is not longer the Sifu who is important it is the student.

For those who teach: When and if you find that one student who is willing to dedicate himself to the art then give him everything and insure the passage of the system to the next generation. History will show that although Wing Chun has had many students only a few from each generatino stand out. There is a reason for this.

In any event good luck and I wish everyone the best.

Peace,

Dave

[greedy]

Unfortunately the teaching game, whether it involves the martial arts, english, history or cookery, is almost always a thankless task task. Huge numbers of hours go into preparation, teaching, evaluating and fine-tuning taching strategies to get the best out of the students, no matter what their ability level.

To teach, you have got to realise that some people approach learning as a commodity. You are, theoretically, be paid for a 'service', and why should you deserve thanks?

I know it is a fantastic feeling to look around you and see people learning something new. The look on their faces when they finally get a technique to work for them. Although it is nice and heart-warming to recieve a pat on the back from time to time, it is the process of teaching and learning that you should enjoy, not just the kudos you recieve from the student.

Your success as a teacher is not always judged by the length of time a person spends in the kwoon, or whether they have fully completed a particular form or not. Unfortunately things happen in life, and sometimes people reprioritise. Instead of cursing these students that 'abondon' you, ask yourself:

'Is this student leaving the kwoon as a better person,either martially, mentally or spiritually, than when they enterred?'

I think that you will find that on the vast majority of occasions, the answer to this question will be yes. That is why we teach, and that is what makes us good teachers.

Cheers,

greed

[doug maverick]

people who drope out have know idea what true gung fu is about they think that(and thanks impart to "gung fu" flicks such as crouching tiger hidden dragon)they could recieve some kind of special technique that will make them fly in the air and make any enemy stand still. then they go to the class and see that gung fu means hard work or mastery of a perticular craft, thats when they see:"**** i actually gotta work out in this place" then they try to stick it out till the end of the month and leave i seen it happen alot in my gung fu school where after a class a sweaty tryout student would say i love this school cause the class was kinda weak then they come to a real class and they get a taste of the real stuff. this is why the intro class is harder now because he doesn't want any bull crap he only wants die hard trainers.

[Armin]

Hi guys!

I just came back from holidays (I spent two weeks in Djerba, Tunisisa) and there's a big deal happening!

As I get it, it's not a problem of Wing Chun, that nearly all students leave after two or three years. I think the first time I heard it from a Karate-master (Kono or Suzuki) that only 1 out of 1000 has the will and the devotion to train on and get a master.

Wing Chun just faces the same problems as Karate, Judo, TKD and any other MA had: when you are "trendy" you get a lot of students, because it's fashion. It's the job of the teacher to pick the students he thinks that are worth teaching. You have to see it like this: The first four or five years the student shows his will to carry on and afterwards he receives "true" instructions.

On the other hand, it's not a problem at all. Think of all the schools/teachers that live from these students. It's like these students make it possible to find the real student, not only by their mass (needing 1000 students to find 1 real student), but they pay the teacher for his search.


Armin.

[Spark]

The money isn't that good???!!!?!?!

Why does that matter!??!! :confused:

Maybe you should rethink why you took wc

;)

[passing_through]

When you teach you have to look at it from your point of view as a teacher as well as your students point of view.

In the US, there is a certain mindset to learning. Most people do martial arts for fun/hobby rather than as a driving force in their life. Approacing marital arts training as a hobby that costs next to nothing makes it very easy to quit.

With that said, what do you want to accomplish as a teacher? Should you spend you life looking for the one person for you to take to the completion of the system or help as many as you can as far as they will allow you to teach them? OR, do both (they are not mutually exclusive).

Does every college student go to school for a PhD? If you're teaching and you expect a student to reach for that level, you're setting yourself up for failure. Your studnet might only need or want a bachelor's degree of information or maybe just an associates.

Additionally, teaching as a sideline or hobby might have worked to a greater extent in the past. People today expect to see a certain level of professionalism and commitment. If you have too personal a relationship too early, a student could see the relationship as buddies/equals rather than teacher/student(father/son).

If you figure your dropout rate is about 3 years, why not tailor your teaching to give the most information you can to help someone understand the purpose and benefit of martial arts practice? That way if they leave, at least they're educated as to what martial arts is all about. Also, if they see the benefit, maybe they'll stay.

There's a thought in Chan along the lines that you can't teach anyone anything. You can only guide them to experiences to learn for themselves. Perhaps the students that leave have learned what they needed to learn and must move on. That has nothing to do with the teacher - or what is taught. Some people identify with Wing Chun, some identify with Underwater basket weaving. To each his own. *shrug* too bad for them ;)

Jeremy R.

... opportunityisnowhere...
... was that no where...
...............or now here...

[Highlander]

Thanks for all the replies, it really has helped.

And thanks to all the Sifu's out there. We talk alot about this sifu and that sifu, and how much is required to study Kung Fu. But there are a lot very good Sifu's out there and what we have to do pales in comparison to what they have put into the art and the sacrifices they have made. I just hope the rewards are as great.

To all the Sifu's out there: "You have my thanks and respect". :)

[Sharky]

I quit wing chun cos of financial circumstances, and my family banned me from going, so i could spend more time studying. Please don't think that every student that quit did it cos they were lazy.

Edd

[Vyvial]

I bet you remember this one!

[yuanfen]

Why are you bringing back old and currently irelevant posts?

[Vyvial]

they'll be gone soon enough but they are more interesting than many of the ones going on now. Besides there are actually still some very relevant ones that many of us forum newbies haven't seen before. Is this a problem? I've actually been spending (wasting) most of the day looking through the earliest posts, some are very valuable, maybe not the ones I've brought back so far but some are epretty good.

[couch]

My Sifu was out of town when all his senior students decided to leave. I've seen so many people come and go in my short 2 years. I agree with some people not wanting to make it a lifestyle, and just keep MA as a hobby. It kind of hurts a bit, but I guess that's life.

If my boss knew that I didn't want to be working for him for the rest of my life, I'm sure he'd take it personally too.

I think that if you were to teach full-time, it would be hard. And about the money not having an influence: if you want to run a successful school, you need to do it full time (I think). ..so you need quite a few students. I know my sifu has kept his own school going through the summer via his own pocket.

This is a great topic to humble us practicioners(sp?).

couch

[anerlich]

The one in 100 rule sounds about right.

Most people come to MA because they want to learn self-defence, not join a new family/religion/cult. Believe it or not, it's not the most important thing in most people's lives, or even close to the most important, and that's probably a good thing in many ways. Someone taking time to teach you a skill deserves respect and appreciation, but IMO not lifelong obligation or loyalty.

The old way may have been to adopt the sifu/student way for life, the modern way may be to treat it aas a semi-commercial transaction. There may be bad things about the latter, but I'm not sure there aren't many about the former. And even the closest families can develop rifts over silly issues.

If you're teaching MA promarily to make friends or money, IMO you're bound for disappointment. If you do it for any reason other than the satisfaction of seeing students progress and grow, you're bound for disappointment.

The rewards for teaching are IMO the small things that accumulate. Seeing someone realise they have a talent and develop the enthusiasm to see how far they can take it. See someone come in with a low self opinion (thanks to Rollins for that one), overweight, out of shape, twelve months later they are an athlete. I spent a lot of private time with one student reviewing her technique, and one week she bugged me unmercifully to ensure I'd be at training on a certain day. "What do she want me to go through with her now?" I kept asking herself. I turned up, and she presented me with a wonderful bottle of wine to thank me for my help. Small rewards. They add up. Will she be a student forever? Unlikely. She wants to get into the police force, and once she does I doubt she'll have the time to train like she used to. Should I demand she put those plans on the back burner because training is more important?

If you get more than a couple of enduring friendships out of MA that go beyond the training itself, you are TRULY blessed.

Thwe best instructors I've had keep a certain emotional distance between themselves and the student, and generally keep a certain part of their private lives hidden from even the closest students. "Be friendly but aloof" is what one mentor told me about interaction with students.

Some people see treating it as a business is the kiss of death, but IMO it's the future. My Sifu, Sihing and several sidais run full or part time professional schools, the bigger of which have regular class sizes of 50+ and an active membership of several hundred.

This may be anathema to some, with commerciallism prostituting the art. I see it is the difference between amateurism and professionalism. And I want a professional standard of instruction, both giving and receiving.

"If my boss knew that I didn't want to be working for him for the rest of my life, I'm sure he'd take it personally too."

No boss with any sense expects this sort of commitment from an employee. It's unreasonable and unrealistic. Few people last more than two years on a job these days. Any boss that takes a subordinate's resignation personally is a fool and shouldn't be in a supervisory role.

[PaulH]

A surprisingly meaningful and calm post from you, Anerlich! I note that caring WC Sifus who don't trap their students often have meaningful and rewarding relationships with the lives that they touched even long after they are gone.

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Anerlich:If you're teaching MA promarily to make friends or money, IMO you're bound for disappointment. If you do it for any reason other than the satisfaction of seeing students progress and grow, you're bound for disappointment
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------above-
True. That is a good craftsman's ethic.

Vyvial- no problem on this one. I was concerned about going overboard with all the oldies.

[anerlich]

A surprisingly meaningful and calm post from you, Anerlich!

Thanks. I have some more meaningless and vitriolic ones waiting in the wings for later release :D

[PaulH]

No one can say that you are not balanced! Ha! Ha!

[old jong]

Originally posted by
I teach very privately and used to have only three students.All of these are also tkd guys! I taught them all I got and for a symbolic price(20$ a month for 1 or 2 lessons a week!) for at least three years.They where also my training partners as my sifu is living at two hours from my place and I see him only once a month.Well two of them left me with no thanks probably thinking that they where now good enough!No news whatsoever!...This makes me think about all that teaching business.Is a friendly relation possible when teaching?...I know now that I won't give my wing chun to anybody for a "friendly price" ever

C'est la vie!


I wrote that?...:D It's been some times.I still teach but now,I have a nice group of students.People come and go but the core of my class (15 of them ) are very good to me and are making good progress.I have fun teaching and...As long as the club's rent is paid!...I still visit my Sifu on a regular base and plan to continue for as long as he will be able to stand my french montrealer accent when I speak english!...

[Vyvial]

I thought that you would like that Old Jong

[Vyvial]

J'ai pensé que vous voudriez cela, Old Jong. Désolé pour le mauvais
Français.

[old jong]

Hey Vyvial!
Votre français est excellent! Merçi pour cette attention.
Laissez-moi vous dire que votre apport dans ce forum est grandement apprécié.

[Vyvial]

Hey Vieux Poteau :) <---that's french for Old Jong, well kinda.

Au moins vous pensez ainsi mais vous êtes très bienvenu. J'espère que je ne dérange pas trop d'enfants en bas âge.

[old jong]

Vieux poteau!!!!:D Au moins il est encore bien ancré dans le sol!...;)

Tes commentaires peuvent déranger certains qui doutent de leur Wing Chun et qui tentent d'en colmater les failles avec des techniques prises à gauche où à droite parmi d'autres arts.
C'est très humain de faire comme ça dans un sens.
Beaucoups d'enfants ne grandissent jamais!

[yuanfen]

Hey Old Jong and Vyvial and crowd--- erom koro kano. Janona prithivi te kotho rokhom bhasa ache.?
lokhra bujbe na.

french bhasa otho purono noi. Julius Caesar er de bello gallico khub bhalo bhabe likeche kamon ora santhal chilo- jokhon onno jaigaye nanan rokom sobhhota chhilo.

choli, ha ha
joy

[old jong]

Oups! ...Sorry um das! ...I hat vergessen dieses Forum ist normalerweise auf englisch. :eek:
Tenterò di non di dimenticare nel futuro....;)

[yuanfen]

Old jong- achha, dhonyobad!!!

he French contributed much to the English language-
but in America they haven't spoken it in years.

I was laughing my head off watchinga subtitled Hindi movie
( my language is bengali)).. Indian movies have to have songs...
and then came the (mis?) translation of a song from a boy supposedly in love witha girl...

""Oh you are a real fairy...!!

este possible?

[Tak]

I'm glad this thread was brought to the fore again - it's certainly more interesting IMO than the "Your school sucks and I'm gonna kick your ass" or "I found some flan in a dumpster yesterday" threads.

My only motivation for teaching commercially would be to support myself enough that I would be able to practice and teach all day, rather than being at some stupid office job all day, then practicing for 2 hours at night.

[old jong]

Kemon achho?...dhonnobad for your answer!....abar dakha habe.
Don't leave home without it!...;)

[yuanfen]

Wow-Old Jong.
There is hope for a cosmopolitan world!!

[old jong]

Hey Joy!
I could learn to speak bengali on line!...The internet makes the world smaller by every day!
There is still some good beside all this crap and porno.

[Vyvial]

Old Jong.

"Au moins il est encore bien ancré dans le sol!" --> At least it is still well anchored in the ground! is that close?

What's wrong with all the crap and porno?

[old jong]

It could not be closer Vyvial!
...I have to admit there is some good crap and porno out there!...;)

[yuanfen]

Oh come on.. because el stupidos are fooled by Indian name abbreviation- JOY- i get a couple of breast enlargement offers daily- !!

[old jong]

I get these viagra offers all the times.I don't need it ,I swear!....I'm telling you!...

































:D

[namron]

Beware the student simulcrum. The student is not you.

The dedication to keep training rests with the individual not the sifu.

The drop out rate is so high because that is the way it is in any choice made in any perspective of ones life (sport, hobby, profession, etc).

Some go, some never to return, some to return and possibly add to your own knowledge (not necessarily WC), few stay.

I graded for my twc gold sash recently after many years of training. Reflecting on this after receiving my sash I commented that to me the kung fu is a way of life not because of the passion I hold for the art but more so for the long term friendships I have forged during those years.

Many of these people have left the style altogether, some have left for another and still fewer are sifus but all hold my respect.

[Ng Mui]

One dedicated student is worth 100 losers.
It is worth teaching 100 losers to find that one.

[SanHeChuan]

how about teaching just because it make your kung fu better? I still gets frustrating when no one stays long enough to improve you advanced skills.

[bing bang pow]

I quit. lol Teaching Gung Fu can be terrible. I have stopped for years before. The martial arts can be a breeding ground for madness, and, as an instructor, you then have to deal with the crazy people. A legendary martial art pioneer in Amercia, Peter Urban, wrote a book about his crazy students called Sensei. It was very funny. He basically blasted most of his crazy students. He himself was eccentric as well.

[FooFighter]

The one in 100 rule sounds about right.

Most people come to MA because they want to learn self-defence, not join a new family/religion/cult. Believe it or not, it's not the most important thing in most people's lives, or even close to the most important, and that's probably a good thing in many ways. Someone taking time to teach you a skill deserves respect and appreciation, but IMO not lifelong obligation or loyalty.

The old way may have been to adopt the sifu/student way for life, the modern way may be to treat it aas a semi-commercial transaction. There may be bad things about the latter, but I'm not sure there aren't many about the former. And even the closest families can develop rifts over silly issues.

If you're teaching MA promarily to make friends or money, IMO you're bound for disappointment. If you do it for any reason other than the satisfaction of seeing students progress and grow, you're bound for disappointment.

The rewards for teaching are IMO the small things that accumulate. Seeing someone realise they have a talent and develop the enthusiasm to see how far they can take it. See someone come in with a low self opinion (thanks to Rollins for that one), overweight, out of shape, twelve months later they are an athlete. I spent a lot of private time with one student reviewing her technique, and one week she bugged me unmercifully to ensure I'd be at training on a certain day. "What do she want me to go through with her now?" I kept asking herself. I turned up, and she presented me with a wonderful bottle of wine to thank me for my help. Small rewards. They add up. Will she be a student forever? Unlikely. She wants to get into the police force, and once she does I doubt she'll have the time to train like she used to. Should I demand she put those plans on the back burner because training is more important?

If you get more than a couple of enduring friendships out of MA that go beyond the training itself, you are TRULY blessed.

Thwe best instructors I've had keep a certain emotional distance between themselves and the student, and generally keep a certain part of their private lives hidden from even the closest students. "Be friendly but aloof" is what one mentor told me about interaction with students.

Some people see treating it as a business is the kiss of death, but IMO it's the future. My Sifu, Sihing and several sidais run full or part time professional schools, the bigger of which have regular class sizes of 50+ and an active membership of several hundred.

This may be anathema to some, with commerciallism prostituting the art. I see it is the difference between amateurism and professionalism. And I want a professional standard of instruction, both giving and receiving.

"If my boss knew that I didn't want to be working for him for the rest of my life, I'm sure he'd take it personally too."

No boss with any sense expects this sort of commitment from an employee. It's unreasonable and unrealistic. Few people last more than two years on a job these days. Any boss that takes a subordinate's resignation personally is a fool and shouldn't be in a supervisory role.

Great post and wise words.

[AmanuJRY]

If you get more than a couple of enduring friendships out of MA that go beyond the training itself, you are TRULY blessed.

Excellent post Anerlich! Although, for me the evolution of our group is heading to a less commercial, small collection of 'enduring friendships' that go beyond training, I guess we're just blessed. :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

Been teaching for 21 years...and there are about 10 people who have trained with me from between 7-16 years (and about 6 of these people still attend some classes whenever they can; and since people's lives change - some get married and have children, some move away, some go forward in their time consuming careers which prevents their attendance on a regular basis anymore)...

But I value these folks very highly, and for a number of reasons.

They are like my children, (I have none of my own other than my step son - and I am about to turn 55 years old), - my brothers and sisters, my students, and my friends...all wrapped up into one person.

That...along with the immeasurable value they have given as training/sparring partners - and along with the immense pleasure I have experienced in watching through the years how each one of them has grown and developed in their fighting skill and knowledge...

has been worth all the frustration connected with the literally hundreds of people who have passed through my doors through the years but didn't stay long enough, for one reason or another, to become an excellent student or a friend.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Been teaching for 21 years...and there are about 10 people who have trained with me from between 7-16 years (and about 6 of these people still attend some classes whenever they can; and since people's lives change - some get married and have children, some move away, some go forward in their time consuming careers which prevents their attendance on a regular basis anymore)...

But I value these folks very highly, and for a number of reasons.

They are like my children (I have none of my own other than my step son - and I am about to turn 55 years old)...my brothers and sisters, my students, and my friends...all wrapped up into one person.

That...along with the immeasurable value they have served as training/sparring partners - and along with the immense pleasure I have experienced in watching through the years how each one of them has grown and developed in their fighting skill and knowledge...

has been worth all the frustration connected with the literally hundreds of people who have passed through my doors through the years but didn't stay long enough, for one reason or another, to become an excellent student or a friend.
Beautiful post Vic....... :)

I'm not a sifu, but have taught wing chun & escrima for over a decade, and the coolest thing about it has been seeing people (whether they trained with me for 6 months, or over 6 years); come out of their shells, face their fears & insecurities, gain confidence, and deal with their egos (learning true humility). -All the rest of the headaches and bullsh1t is water under the bridge, but those are the things that have stayed with me.

-Lawrence

[lawrenceofidaho]

The best instructors I've had keep a certain emotional distance between themselves and the student, and generally keep a certain part of their private lives hidden from even the closest students. "Be friendly but aloof" is what one mentor told me about interaction with students.
Andrew,

[My primary teacher of many years] also told me this, but I shrugged it off as being something that a full-time pro instructor needs to do to keep from being taken advantage of, or taken for granted when he relies on the students for his income. -Aside from financial considerations, what valid reasons could there be for doing this?

-Lawrence

[Ultimatewingchun]

Thanks, Lawrence...and this was SO WELL PUT:

"and the coolest thing about it has been seeing people...come out of their shells, face their fears & insecurities, gain confidence, and deal with their egos (learning true humility)."

[quiet man]

But what about leaving something behind? What about making sure your ving tsun will outlive you? My sifu's been teaching for about 20 years now. Few years ago, 4 of his senior students, already instructors in their own clubs, left him for another sifu because they thought he was holding them back (from what I hear, they aren't happy about their current teacher either, but no matter). Some more time passes, another senior student leaves ving tsun altogether because he wants to go into MMA. And finally, his at-that-time seniormost student also leaves vt - new job, wife, kids, you know how it goes. And let me tell you, this guy was good. Tall and muscular, but with an amazing position, amazing timing, amazing coordination, and so much dedication... everyone thought of him as the future sifu.

So now, after 20 years of hard work, my sifu has nothing to show for him. Who will succeed him? He shrugs it off with a smile, but I'm sure it's slowly getting to him...

[stonecrusher69]

So now, after 20 years of hard work, my sifu has nothing to show for him. Who will succeed him? He shrugs it off with a smile, but I'm sure it's slowly getting to him...



That's a tuff one to deal with..In teaching like anything else there is very little loyalty today.If someone does not like what there getting they simply move on.

[anerlich]

Aside from financial considerations, what valid reasons could there be for doing this?

The financial considerations are valid - IMO it is often, if not always, a mistake to mix money and friends, business and pleasure. Having worked for one, now ex-, friend, and seen an MA instructor I know lose two very good students because he convinced them to participate in real estate deals that went sour, in this I am a firm believer.

I think too there's the same sort of obligations that go with educational or professional relationships - teachers, doctors, etc. not having relationships with their students or patients - such relationships can be exploited by one or both parties otherwise.

It's probably harder to respect, or accept discipline from, someone you went out drinking with last night and watched spew in a gutter before you shovelled them into a taxi. Sifus are human too (as much as some might like to pretend otherwise), with human frailties and weaknesses best yielded to away from the scrutiny of students. They too like to ***** and let off steam occasionally, but there is a time and place, and in front of students probably ain't it.

And my wife would get REALLY pi$$ed off if I had students calling me incessantly to ask for personal or training advice, favours, or just to shoot the breeze.

[mufty]

Teaching the Martial Arts is poblematical.
On the one hand as teachers we want to teach our students as much as we can, as quicly as we can. And have them become very good martial artist's. We also wished that they continued training for life.

However if every student that has passed through our doors stayed there would not be a training hall large enough to cater for those exceptional training days when everybody turns up to train.

Over the many years I have been teaching I have met and made friends with so many people, some are still training others not but I still see them and we have a good chat and somtimes a drink.

Also I have taught their children, who now have youngsters of their own who they intend to bring to training.

Although I would like everybody to remain training I know that this is impractical.

But what warms my heart is that I am recognised for my efforts and dedication to the martial arts where I live, The local children call me the Karate man, and I can go out and be proud of the achivements that my students have made.

I see adults who were once children, somtimes difficult children, who have overcome theirselves and become Fathers and Mothers, holding down good jobs, owning their own homes and so on ect ect ect, ex students who take the time of day to share a joke and speak to me.

I have new students, who will eventually leave to persue their lives, and I know that their stay at our martial arts club was a positive one, and will be with them all their lives.

This is how we overcome the problem of students moving on, we must see the positive effects, like a ripple in the sea of life.

Anyway My life as an instructor dose not suck, in fact the martial arts have given me the power to be able to lead a life very diffrent and fufilling. Allowing me the freedom to live it my way.

[anerlich]

But what about leaving something behind? What about making sure your ving tsun will outlive you?

I think this is expecting a bit much. We'd all like to think we are remembered and revered after death, but for the vast majority it's not going to happen. If this is your purpose for living, you're missing out on the joys of here and now. Has your Sifu not brought some meaning and pleasure to people's lives? Is that not enough? Did his Sifu say to him, "if you don't get the one true successor, you're a loser and your life will have been a complete waste"?

Remember the Buddhist reality of impermanence. Everything and everyone leaves or dies eventually. Nothing lasts. Get used to it, because that's the way it is.


And finally, his at-that-time seniormost student also leaves vt - new job, wife, kids, you know how it goes. And let me tell you, this guy was good. Tall and muscular, but with an amazing position, amazing timing, amazing coordination, and so much dedication... everyone thought of him as the future sifu.

You have no spouse or kids, huh?

His first loyalty *should* be to his family ... his wife and kids are probably much happier he's with them, and making lots of bucks at his new job, than worrying about his Sifu's mantle being passed to him. Every moment you don't spend with your kids is one you and they will never get back. Becoming a Sifu means liittle if to get there you sacrifice family life. If a choice was ever demanded between training to become a Sifu and my wife, Sifu is coming a distant second/last.

Why does your Sifu need to choose one successor? In reality, he has many.

[quiet man]

@ anerlich:

I think you misunderstand me. Nobody resents this guy for leaving the kwoon to get married, have a new job and a family life; in fact, we couldn't be happier for him. He's a really nice guy, always with a smile on his face, always helping his younger brothers, and beating them only occasionally :D , so it was really nice to see good things happen to him. And I'm not saying sifu feels betrayed or something, nor does sifu disapprove of his choice. It's nothing personal.
It's just that, after my sifu, the way things are now, ving tsun in my country will pretty much die with him. So it's not really a matter of remembering one person, it's about keeping the art alive. My sifu is really good (and I'm not just saying that because he's mine). He's a direct student of the late Wong Shun Leung and has so much knowledge to share, both practical and theoretical, not to mention numerous anecdotes about Wong sigung and Hong Kong. I was fortunate enough to find such a school, but tomorrow there may be no school to find at all.
I know all things die eventually, and so will vt, but some things are more precious than others, perhaps... so what I'm saying (getting there, finally :D ): although many quit on him, Yip Man still has Leung Sheung, Wong Shun Leung, Lok Yiu, Tsui Sheung Tin, his sons and many others, and although many quit on him too, Wong Shun Leung still has Philipp Bayer, Barry Lee, Nino Bernardo, David Peterson and many others... it's possible my sifu feels he's been writing on the water.

[Lindley]

This post should be renamed more appropriately "Being (MY) Wing Chun Sifu sucks". Like most things in life, it is not wise to generalize by the limitations of our own experiences or the experiences of the few. There are aspects of being a Sifu that are intangeables. It's like saying your child costs you so much money and time and trying to compare this to them calling you "daddy" or "Mommy" and smiling up at you. I wrote a piece for our newsletter on the difference between being a Sifu and being someone who teaches students. On being a Sifu, one must recognize the level of commitment level and adjust to such. Others mistakenly think that he who teaches good kung fu or opens a school is doing it out of "passion". Passion is part of it, but don't mistake passion for stupidity.

The problem with most martial arts school owners and leaders is that they hold on to traditional methods outside the training floor. Especially in the United States where we have such diverse cultural backgrounds there exists certain things that can make people come together and reach the goal that are non-traditional. I use a lot of ideas from the Karate folks and they DO work. However, I use them in a way consistent with making sure that both sides get a fair exchange. Although, truely there is no price for one's experiences, our society uses money as a symbol. Behind that symbol is obligation.

If the approach of martial arts training is one dimensional - meaning that students are only after how much direct information they can get; the "show me this and show me that" - then these type of incidents, like students leaving for other masters, and such will happen. I tend to take an inclusive relationship with my students, meaning that they need not feel they must leave the family to learn other things. If they see something somewhere else, they can bring it back for discussion or demonstration. As the Sifu, my job is to help them reach their goals through Ving Tsun Kung Fu training and the concept of Kung Fu life. A sculptor does not teach you how to make art; you watch and learn from the master's words and actions. You are really an apprentice.

One should never feel that a Sifu wasted efforts on any student. The student put in their time and came along for the ride. Relationships are difficult in any realm of life, so why should they be any different in the kwoon? The student who leaves must do what they must. It would be inappropriate for the Sifu to stand in their way.

A true Sifu is very strong and relaxed, and knows the right things to do. From your perspective, maybe it "sucks" to do what they do. Let's see if it "sucks" when you become one.

[anerlich]

I think you misunderstand me.

So maybe you didn't explain yourself properly?


It's just that, after my sifu, the way things are now, ving tsun in my country will pretty much die with him. So it's not really a matter of remembering one person, it's about keeping the art alive. My sifu is really good (and I'm not just saying that because he's mine).

With due respect, the art looks pretty healthy around the world with or without your Sifu. You're being way too romantic and full of self pity.

If YOU'RE so concerned, what are YOU doing about it besides whingeing on an internet forum? If you're not trying to get as much info as possible out of him, make vids, write books, train harder and teach more than he did, you're part of the problem and just as bad as any of these others you talk about.

YOU solve his problem (are you sure its his and not yours?), or quit your whining. It's not up to him to make YOU feel right.

[n.mitch]

I think its is hard if your teaching wing chun (or any martial art) to make a living out of it.Easier to teach for a hobby and enjoyment ,and a little bit of extra money which these days you need just to cover your insurance.
Even thought its fustrating when students leave especially those with talent, its worth it when you are teaching the students who do stay and you can see them grow as martial artist and as human beings. nothing better than seeing them understanding a technique or form you have been teaching them that they couldnt apply or had trouble with, then all of a sudden it just clicks.
I also find that teaching helps your own understanding of wing chun and makes you a better martial artist. Its great passing on what you have learnt to others and the conntinual growth of martial arts.

[quiet man]

So maybe you didn't explain yourself properly?



And maybe you need to back off a little? Maybe read what is written before you start getting all condescending? I say "ving tsun in my country will pretty much die with (my sifu)", and you say "the art looks pretty healthy around the world with or without your Sifu. You're being way too romantic and full of self pity". What would that technique be? Non-sequitur sau?
This thread's called "Being a Wing Chun Sifu Sucks", so I offered one possible argument in favor of the thesis and used my sifu as an example. What I didn't do, however, is ask for your "advice" on how to handle my "problem", nor for your in-depth analysis of my personality and my behaviour.

And if my "whining" annoys you so much, please feel free to ignore it. I sure wouldn't want to waste any of your precious time.

[anerlich]

Touchy. The point is, why can't/don't you pick up where your Sifu leaves off? Then WC in your country doesn't have to die. Does it?

[Meklorien]

Teaching is not for everybody and not everybody can be taught. Feel fortunate if you can pass the WC art on to a few good people in your lifetime.

Respectfully yours,
John DiVirgilio
Hawaii Wing Chun Gung-Fu Assoc.

Hi John,

I got involved in Wing Chun (Eddie Chong lineage) back in '94. Since that time I have done some growing up in the art as is expected. Around '99 I looked back and recognized the many frustrations I put my own teacher through and figured I was a moderate or typical student.

I ran across your "Lore of Wing Chun" in those years and it was a great help to me. In fact, I still consider it the best straightforward Wing Chun advice anybody can get (for those of you reading this, you should seriously look into this).

Around 2000 I started teaching out of my garage. I've been through many faces and names that I can't remember anymore and over the last six years I half one (1) good student. He's older than me and so there is no adolescence to wade through to reach him. It is refreshing to interact with him and I leave our sessions feeling invigorated about Wing Chun because I learn as much or more than he does. And he is coming along very well. But this falls in line with your advice about teaching ages.

However, the current thread really hits home with me since I have had maaaaany promising students who just can't get their act together enough to simply handle their own learning (much less pay me) and it became so frustrating that I am now on a half year break.

I immediately turned to your book for advice and it has helped me "keep my fire going" so to speak. And I gotta say, you must be one hellava teacher in this.

Anyways, I just wanted to thank you for putting your advice out there. It has helped me over the years and continues to be the only source I have encountered that offers real advice on being a student as well as a teacher.

[Meklorien]

It's like these students make it possible to find the real student, not only by their mass (needing 1000 students to find 1 real student), but they pay the teacher for his search.


Armin.

An interesting observation. I will have to think on this one.... Thanks.

[Meklorien]

how about teaching just because it make your kung fu better? I still gets frustrating when no one stays long enough to improve you advanced skills.

Finally! SanHeChuan is right. The main point of teaching is to learn.

[Liddel]

Being a VT sifu does suck. This is why its no wonder people get frustrated with thier Sifu teaching them SLT and telling them to practice it for 2,3 or 4 months before moving on.....

Students get all pi$$ed off not learning anything new in that time.

People come and go so the old school masters just teach a little at a time not letting everything go because, who knows they may be gone the next day.

On the positive side, my sifu wanted a chinesse follower for him to impart all he knows in VT onto. But because they came and went he had no choice but to impart his knowledge onto someone like me, a Guilo whos given up getting ripped at parties every week with my mates or having girlfriends to spend most of my time with :rolleyes: , instead to train hard 4 to 5 times a week for the last ten years and still going.

At the end of the day hes not worried about those that left just those that remain.

Yes it does suck, but when you find that certain few it can be really satisfying :rolleyes:

[Meklorien]

And maybe you need to back off a little? Maybe read what is written before you start getting all condescending? I say "ving tsun in my country will pretty much die with (my sifu)", and you say "the art looks pretty healthy around the world with or without your Sifu. You're being way too romantic and full of self pity". What would that technique be? Non-sequitur sau?
This thread's called "Being a Wing Chun Sifu Sucks", so I offered one possible argument in favor of the thesis and used my sifu as an example. What I didn't do, however, is ask for your "advice" on how to handle my "problem", nor for your in-depth analysis of my personality and my behaviour.

And if my "whining" annoys you so much, please feel free to ignore it. I sure wouldn't want to waste any of your precious time.

The hard part about writing on these forums QM is that there will always be those who will be too busy knowing; will pick apart your words to find a place to attack you. People of this type do this kind of thing because they have a deep-seated need to feel superior.

I know it is quite irritating, but then again dogs'll bark.

[anerlich]

People of this type do this kind of thing because they have a deep-seated need to feel superior.

LOL, sort of like those who erroneously think they have some innate gift for psychoanalysis or unusual insight into the human condition, and then feel that their, er "epiphanies" are then worth posting on internet forums.


I know it is quite irritating, but then again dogs'll bark.

Woof woof.

[russellsherry]

hi all , anerlick , i am doing it again bloody argreing, with you. i hate it when your right, at my old school when it went bad it was because my sifu kept going overseas , not being their and taking interest in it. going into real esaste , which is fine except your club suffers and it did he was olny interesed in money at the time becuase untill then up till 85 he was teaching ok then jept not coming to class when he did he craped on about horse racing and everything else excpet bill gee and dummy this was the major reason i left it was after i left and spoke to wong shun leunrg though my friend i found the truth about him
but at least i have learnt ,good wing chun and arnis after leaving him russ

[Cobra Commander]

Hello guys/gals. I am not anywhere even near to being a Sifu.
But here are my thoughts:

Basically I train in Toronto with a really efficient Sifu. He is open minded and often quotes himself as "An expert at learning". A very nice, honest man.

I myself have a lot to develop. Not just in the Wing Chun/fighting stuff but also how to treat others, how to respect myself, how to carry myself in certain situations, relaxation honing, mind and emotion mastery, etc etc. Sifu pointed all this out to me and, ultimately it is my responsability to make sure I continue going the distance in improving these aspects of my life. He simply opened the door, I must decide to walk through it or not.

I figure my Sifu cares about his students and wants to teach those he can trust and respect. I don't think he has time for bad apples. IF it was all about the money, he could have simply opened up a "commercialized" school with all the nice trimmings (major major advertisements, pretty sashes, over decorated space, pretty uniforms). He could have accepted hundreds of students regardless if they are bad apples or good apples.

But my Sifu made a lot of sacrifices in regards to keeping his school and art for the most part clean. He works in 1 or 2 other day jobs just to support himself. He does not try to over charge his students. I think these small details has made his school stand out among most of the other schools in regards to authenticity.

Ultimately, I think often it comes down to how the Sifu presents himself to the community. If he is humble and seeks only to pass on his art and improve his own knowledge through teaching; he will attract more dedicated students willing to stick with it for many more years. However if the Sifu chooses to go the commercial route, there will be many who drop out because there are hundreds of more students (many of them can be bad apples?).

Regardless though, I think there will be a number of students dropping out of any Study regardless of how the Sifu presents his art. And some will be inconsiderate and not even say a goodbye or thank you. Thats just the way the world works sometimes.
I find it really disrespectful though to not say thank you and bye to your Sifu when you DO have to depart though. Say one day that student feels the need to return to Sifu and become enlightened, how would that make the Sifu feel? Knowing this same very student vanished for 5 years without a word and now he wants to be back in the class?

[Meklorien]

LOL, sort of like those who erroneously think they have some innate gift for psychoanalysis or unusual insight into the human condition, and then feel that their, er "epiphanies" are then worth posting on internet forums.

Are referring to your post to Quiet Man? Very self aware of you. I can't help but be impressed.

[anerlich]

Are referring to your post to Quiet Man? Very self aware of you. I can't help but be impressed.

No, I was referring to your post to him, which I quoted (twice). I would have thought that was obvious to anyone without reading difficulties.

You may be impressed with your own posts, but I imagine you would be in a very small minority.

Look, you basically suggested to Quiet Man (and implicitly to the forum) that I was a d!ck, and I called you on it. Sticks and stones, and all that.

How about we drop it there rather than trading silly insults?

[Meklorien]

No, I was referring to your post to him, which I quoted (twice). I would have thought that was obvious to anyone without reading difficulties.

You may be impressed with your own posts, but I imagine you would be in a very small minority.

Look, you basically suggested to Quiet Man (and implicitly to the forum) that I was a d!ck, and I called you on it. Sticks and stones, and all that.

How about we drop it there rather than trading silly insults?

Touchy. The point is, you should put more effort into making your responses in this forum more respectful as opposed to launching character attacks.

From reading your posts, I can tell you are an intelligent person. But it is hard for me to respect your posts when you attack rather than discuss.

[anerlich]

The point is, you should put more effort into making your responses in this forum more respectful as opposed to launching character attacks.


The forum already has a moderator. If I want advice, I'll ask. Otherwise, mind your own business and get out of my face.

[Meklorien]

The forum already has a moderator. If I want advice, I'll ask. Otherwise, mind your own business and get out of my face.

Temper, temper. But your reaction does not surprise me much, Anerlich. Your posts show that you have a high tendency to react condescending and acidic in your responses, rather than display much in the way of dispassionate and productive discussion.

It's ironic that you, yet again, show your hubris by telling me to mind my own business -- on a public forum. The implication here would seem to be that this thread is your matter to deal with and not mine, or anyone elses on this forum for that matter.

If you desire to post your advice to the world without having to deal with that irritation of actually discussing it respectfully with others, then I would encourage you to consider another venue.

In reviewing other posts of yours in this forum I found that in some cases (perhaps accidentally) you were capable of rendering your opinion without getting peevish. So I do not doubt that you could offer good advice to any forum -- if only you could reign in that little 'tude of yours.

You might find a college class on the finer elements of debate helpful to you. Perhaps then you could get your point across without killing your message so effectively, and stave off or even engage and control responses from people like me.

I don't imagine you're enjoying this discussion anymore than I am, and, in truth, I think this tangent takes away from the original thread. So I won't be responding any further along these lines. But I am still curious to see if you can refrain from getting the last word in. Or if you do, whether it will be something sage or jejune.