WC knife defense

[Vio]

The way traditional arts deal with knives seem to get quite a bit of critiscism from some authors.
So I was was just thinking of what I was taught in WC. Basically we were taught to grab the wrist with both hands after he tries to strike, then applying a chin na lock (we learnt a cool way to redirect the blade towards the attacker while hes still holding it) or takedown if you like and then disarming the blade.
I'd like to know if this is the proper WC method and if it is very realistic?

[Brodie Bortigno]

A good way to test the effectiveness of a knife drill (or so I am told) is to have in your hand, instead of a knife, a large white board marker or similar. Then have the VT guy try and disarm the attacker with the marker/knife and have the attacker try his darndest to cut and kill the VT guy. What usually happens is, as the VT guy is applying this lock or that lock, or pak sauing here or there, the attacker has basically cut his hands off and removed his kidneys. This little experiment basically nullifies the effectiveness of 99% of knife fighting drills.

I won't go into what does work myself because I've never been in that situation. However, there is an article that deals with it and I'll track it down for you. I do know one thing though, and it's more common sense than martial skill: if he has a knife and you have room, run for your life. It's not worth it. If he hits you just once in the body, you may die.

It is dealt with, very briefly, by Wong Shun Leung in an interview with Clive Potter here: http://www.wongvingtsun.co.uk/download.htm

You may need to do a bit of searching, I'm afraid.

If you can't find it, here's the quote:

"How does Wing Chun approach knife fighting?

"... Wong Shun Leung said Wing Chun does not send you out to get killed. Even if you can defend against 80% of knife attacks, the rest will get you killed. Alot of defenses are not realistic because the knife can twist around. Sometimes a kick to the hand is used."

Emphasis must be placed on "sometimes". Everytime you see a knife doesn't mean you must kick it. It was just an example.

[Vio]

Wong's stuff is always a good read. I had pretty much the same conclusion that nothing really works against an armed enemy.
However if you "have" to fight an armed attacker you would have to know where all your major arteries are located and defend those with your life. You can take few cuts on the outside of the hands and forearm goin in to control the blade.

[anerlich]

I'd like to know if this is the proper WC method and if it is very realistic?

I don't think there is a "proper WC method" other than to never engage with a knife wielder if you can possibly avoid it; get a bigger weapon if you can't, and if that fails ... never give up.

I think your response probably is the best of a bad lot - basically unarmed against a weapon all your options suck. Control the weapon and try to pulverise the attacker.

IMO standard WC defenses against open hand attacks are poor choices against a blade.

[Brodie Bortigno]

If you absolutely must fight this guy then get that knife as far away from you as possible. Subtelty in dealing with open hands goes out the window: knives can twist and slash and stab while the open hands are basically harmless when fully extended or without the power of the body behind them. Knives are not so. Keep that knife away and hit him until you have enough room to run.

[wentwest]

If I had no other weapon at my disposal, and nothing that could be improvised, and I couldn't run or otherwise escape, I would try to use a jacket or even the shirt off my back to try to wrap up and trap the knife & knife hand asap. It's better than bare hands. I would then do my best to beat the MF'r to within an inch of his life.

[Brodie Bortigno]

Right. If there is a bin or a stick or a piece of pipe or a jacket or something that doesn't die when it's stabbed then make use of it. Even if he doesn't have a knife and you see a piece of steel pipe laying at your feet, pick it up and belt him. Open handing the guy is a last resort, really.

[panos]

I recently took up kali lessons, and even though i am at the beegining i'v seen many things about their attitude against knife,
and the generall way they move.

their hand moves have the same philosophy with wing chun. They have moves similar to kan sao, tan sao, bill sao, tsun sao, larp sao.

The only thing they dont pay attention is the centerline. Thats why the are very vulnerable against WC in unarmed combat.

With a knife of course things are opposite. You cant block a knife the same way. You cant block a knife period. The only think you can do is to "drive" the hand at the same direction it was going. That completely disorganizes the attacker and gives you a chance of dissarming.

You CANNOT dissarm a knife with the first touch if the attacker knows even the basics about using a knife.

But if Kaliers (sic!) can use their moves effectively against knifes so can wing chuners (sic1 #2) (similar moves) if only we change the angles a bit and forget a little about centerline when defencing (and remember them when striking back).

The other advantage they get is that since they completely ignore the centerline theory in unarmed combat they are used to faster, bigger and more agile steps in order to avoid hits.(kind like a boxer). We may not need that but when it gets to knifes they keep the steps they are used to and we have to change them.

[Keng Geng]

How can a system of martial art with so few forms including only 2 weapons forms, one of which is a set blades, not have defenses against weapons!??

Come on guys, think about it.... that's ridiculous. And do you notice that 90% of the wing chun schools put so little focus on the weapons, most of all the blades? Hmmm.... makes you wonder, I hope. So, once again, as with so many of the other aspects of Wing Chun, that are integral, but not known - just because the teacher doesn't know it, does not mean it's not there.

How much training do you and/or your sifu put into the knives? How much of it is forms? How much of it is the bat cham do drills? And I don't mean the blades against the pole - blades against blades? And if you don't know them, then you don't have an answer to the nature of this thread - how WC deals with a knife.

[wentwest]

Originally posted by Keng Geng
How can a system of martial art with so few forms including only 2 weapons forms, one of which is a set blades, not have defenses against weapons!??

Come on guys, think about it.... that's ridiculous. And do you notice that 90% of the wing chun schools put so little focus on the weapons, most of all the blades? Hmmm.... makes you wonder, I hope. So, once again, as with so many of the other aspects of Wing Chun, that are integral, but not known - just because the teacher doesn't know it, does not mean it's not there.

How much training do you and/or your sifu put into the knives? How much of it is forms? How much of it is the bat cham do drills? And I don't mean the blades against the pole - blades against blades? And if you don't know them, then you don't have an answer to the nature of this thread - how WC deals with a knife.

Can't speak for others, but in my school TWC (William Cheung lineage) we do practice knife disarming techniques. They're good techniques too, but that doesn't mean that in a real situation, I'm not going to use every advantage I have... as in improvised weapons, a jacket as mentioned above etc. Bare handed against knife is a LAST resort - even though we train it in our WC school.

I also don' t see any problem with training in other systems for additional weapon (and against weapon) proficiency. In fact I think it's wise. Just because WC does have techniques for disarming an attacker with a knife DOESN'T mean I'm bound to not look beyond it for additional skill proficiency in theis area. FMA's are great. Sayoc Kali is some serious stuff regarding knife tactics, etc.

[Ernie]

keng geng
blades against blades
and blade against pole

to be honest i have yet to see anything near the clarity in filipino systems

sure i know forms and partner drills
even senisitivty drills with in wing chun weapons

but because they adhear to certian body structure dynamics there will be limitations

i have also seen this problem in some filipino systems that are trapped by the triangle as well to be fair

that being said

if people would spar with the weapons and toss those ridiculas forms
you would see much growth
it still bust me up on how people try and perfect forms , get that perfect pose
in respect to what ?
there is no person in front of you moving and trying to hit you
pretend fighting will only make you great at pretending

but at least wing chun offers a suggestion

i think it's up to the individual to take the next step in progression

problem is you might find out you suck and people have a hard time dealing with that
:)

[KenWingJitsu]

Basically we were taught to grab the wrist with both hands after he tries to strike
Just so you know, that doesnt work at all. lol. The room for error is...well, all you gotta do is test it with a marker. You do need to control the weapon hand, but not by grabbing the wrist as he tries to strike.

[Keng Geng]

I find that people who don't put enough emphasis on forms, suck all around, and those who put too much emphasis suck all around. One needs to understand the relationship forms have to the rest of Wing Chun, and vice versa.

Understanding the role of the forms is key, as much as understanding the role of other aspects of WC. Dismissing any one aspect is a mistake that one may never come to understand. Dismissing any one part and proporting to know Wing Chun is a huge injustice to your students.

Dismissing it as 'pretending' clearly indicates a lack of understanding of Wing Chun as a whole.

[Ernie]

Dismissing it as 'pretending' clearly indicates a lack of understanding of Wing Chun as a whole.


ha ha love this guy

doing form for the sake of imitating a motion is just empty
these shapes and ideas mean nothing until you have personal experience with them

so gain experience is the key

a tan bong or fook , is just a static position until you have a live enviroment were you find it's use ,

beyond getting basic mechnical motion sitting there pretending is just a waste of time ,

ergo many people doing forms many people suck can't move or adapt to a non wing chun enviroment

but once you aquire extensive experience in application
then when you do your form it's meaning ful

until then it's just watching paint dry

doing forms with weapons is even worse since things happen much quicker and the price of being static is much higher

but i know many traditionalist will cling on to pretend stuff it offerrs a safty factor

[[[[Dismissing any one part and proporting to know Wing Chun is a huge injustice to your students.]]]]

filling students head with nonsense and stories is the injustice
teaching them to die is another

if it is not consitant and easy to apply and most of natural then it doesn't belong

keeping things just because and never making them prove themselves is a true in justice and weakens the art as a whole

more of a put up or shut up role in my book .
but then again i have no love for tradition i only care for what is proven efffective and has a high consisitancy rate

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Ernie
beyond getting basic mechnical motion sitting there pretending is just a waste of time There are deeper aspects to develop - like the energies.


but once you aquire extensive experience in application then when you do your form it's meaning ful What exactly are you acquiring. It seems that is where the 'pretending' lies. You're 'pretending' to be in a fight...?!


doing forms with weapons is even worse since things happen much quicker and the price of being static is much higher Agreed but who said anything about static forms?


if it is not consitant and easy to apply and most of natural then it doesn't belong Oh yes... the natural thinker. I keep forgetting.


keeping things just because and never making them prove themselves is a true in justice and weakens the art as a wholeAbsolutely agree. But it seems that problem lies on your end, not mine. You have your sifu(s), I have mine.
If you have any questions you'd like to ask him, I can give you his number?

[Ernie]

ahh beating the dead horse again


[There are deeper aspects to develop - like the energies.]

oh god please shoot me , power release is power release thing is when your getting bum rushed in the street there is no time to express energies , unless you just pretending

pull it off on a moving aggressive opponent , then talk to me about developing

[What exactly are you acquiring. It seems that is where the 'pretending' lies. You're 'pretending' to be in a fight...?!]

no you break some thing down to it's mechnical actions train it , apply pressure then trainit in a live enviroment . but maybe this is beyond you and your sifu ha ha sorry couldn't help myself

[[Agreed but who said anything about static forms?]]

ok his deserves a real answer ,
honestly when people do forms to much '' and you did mention this '' the get over programmed and try and recreate the form in a live enviroment and get clunky or forced , instead of just adapting the idea behind the form
this is my real beef with forms , they get to fixed
of course there are basics ,structure position balance and angle which are universal , but when i see people become a stick figure of the form it's just sad

[[Oh yes... the natural thinker. I keep forgetting.]]]

the alternitive would be ? perhaps a robot or a parrot of some one elses life and views

[[[Absolutely agree. But it seems that problem lies on your end, not mine. You have your sifu(s), I have mine.
If you have any questions you'd like to ask him, I can give you his number]]]

man your still my hero
i could give a rats ass what your sifu my sifu any sifu has to say , talking is easy doing is something else and whart another man can do has no effect on what i can do so i worry about myself and try not to attach myself to another mans achievments

[Brodie Bortigno]

There are deeper aspects to develop - like the energies.

The "energies", eh? What exactly are these "energies"? All I'm aware of is good structure and muscle memory and, although they can be drilled to a limited degree in the forms, they are better drilled in live situations as Ernie describes. I see the forms as dictionaries that can always be referred back to, but they are not an end in themselves, but a means to the real encounters Ernie is talking about.

If "The Energies" have anything to do with chi or mysticism then I'm not interested; I consider that a crock and of absolutely no use to the martial artist, other than a cheat and a means of justification for inferior techniques and theory.

[YongChun]

What our club trained in the early 1980's was the Baat Jaam Do form or 8 chop knife form with the knife and with empty hand. After that we drilled simple Katana cuts vs the knife. This training taught angles, footwork and timing. Then we used padded dowels the length of Butterfly knives and did some knife vs knife drills. After that we went to free style sparring with padded sticks and eye protection. Sometimes we would also spar spear againt knife in order to develop quickness of the feet to get in because it's very difficult to get into someone who is good with a spear. During this time we had an Escrima teacher with us learning Wing Chun. So sometimes we would try Wing Chun knife vs Escrima stick. Only this one Wing Chun guy who was also a Fencing instructor was able to penetrate and hit against the Escrima teacher. The rest of us got whacked real good with the stick. So that told me the knife could match the stick but it was just a matter of putting in the time to get the reflexes and foot speed up.

After that I went to some Filipino and Silat knife fighting seminars and learned various ways to deal with the knife. That was very interesting but if not trained all the time, most of that leaves you.

We found the most useful was just to get two short safety knives of some sort or markers and have a knife vs knife fight. For the most part we used cuts to the limbs, simultaneous thrusts etc. This training just developed a sense of timing and distance so that you wouldn't get cut 100% of the time but maybe only 90% of the time unless you were against a slow beginner who didn't have a clue about anything and then he would get cut 99.9% of the time.

The locks and disarms of various sorts were not really possible to apply but that might be a function of knife mastery and time put in. So I would say for an average three day a week martial arts student, he isn't going to pull off too much against say an average athletic guy intent on cutting or stabbing you. We realize the best defense is to use another object: stick, coat, chair, gun or whatever but we just did those drills at the end of class for entertainment.

Knife stuff is fun but usually not that realistic. When you face a fake knife you tend to tak chances that you wouldn't if the knife was very sharp and could cut to the bone with one slice. The feeling is totally different in the real case. Likewise the knife against Katana that we practiced, I would say is totally useless against a real Katana that can move at high speed from countless angles. After a few years of playing with amateur Katana against knife I tried against mediocre Japanese Katana wielder and mostly I got cut. The adept guy is pretty fluid and tricky with the thing. Even without the tricks, the speed and force of the Katana is such that you better know what you are doing with position and mobility or you will be in big trouble.

So for the average Wing Chun practitioner these days I don't think most people want to dedicate their time to developing knife skill. The standard Wing Chun movements can be used against the non professional who doesn't know what he is doing. The same movements will work against better people if you put in the right number of hours. It might take ten years to deal with the attacks of someone who has studied attacking for one year though. Even after that there would be an good chance to get hit. If a good baoxer still gets hit by a bad boxer then the same will be true against the knife except a knife cut is hard to recover from. A good boxer can condition a bit against punches and partially deflect them but that's hard to do against sharp knives.

For Chinese martial arts they say if the single edged broadsword takes a solid year of training then the double edged sword takes ten solid years of training. So real weapons skill where you are going o fight for real against real weapons is not practical these days. However there is always the idea that some training is better than nothing and probably that's why many people still play around with knives and knife defenses in their clubs.

Against a slow person , everything I even learned works real good. Against a fast athletic person we both get killed most of the time. It's hard to say what training really helps because you can't test out real bladed fighting.

I recommend to still train with the knives and see what part of Wing Chun you can make work. Perhaps it is just a good way to enhance the empty hand skill.

If our club was totally dedicated to knife fighting then we might have different experiences and success rates but we just practice this as a diversion.

I once asked Grandmaster Remy Presas what was better: all the locking stuff he taught or the Wing Chun kind of simultaneous hits and deflections to deal with a knife and he said it didn't matter much and just depended on one's skill level. I asked Grandmaster Bobby Taboada about knife fighting once and he said in the Phillipines you don't need to teach knife fighting because kids are brought up with a knife in their hand. His defenses looked very Wing Chunish to me.

Wong Shun Leung told me that he didn't like to teach knife defense because even if the kinfe defense worked 80% of the time, the other 20% of the time would get you killed.

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Brodie Bortigno
The "energies", eh? What exactly are these "energies"? Oh... just the energies that all of kung fu is based. Basically, if you're not training them, you're not doing kung fu.


All I'm aware of is good structure and muscle memory Sorry to disappoint, but that's not all there is. You've been watching too much Bruce Lee.


I see the forms as dictionaries that can always be referred back toReferred back to for what?


If "The Energies" have anything to do with chi or mysticism then I'm not interestedDoesn't necessarily have to do with chi, but it should. Everything having to do with kung fu is about chi. And if you're not training that way, like I said above, you're not doing kung fu.


Some would say it has to do with chi, and it can I consider that a crock and of absolutely no use to the martial artist, other than a cheat and a means of justification for inferior techniques and theory. Agreed. Chi is not mystical at all, but often explained that way. Go to any authentic chinese doctor, he'll explain it. As with everything, it all depends on who's teaching it.

[Ernie]

ray
thanks for bringing this thread back to honest perspective from some one who is both old school and has trained in application
as usual great post man


but i have a question , how did you feel the knife sparring changed your empty hand and foot work
not chi sau but real motion

for me everything got quicker and better balanced my timeing and feel became very crisp


also the ability to adapt and fire from any posture improved


kind of like supercharging my reflexes


also did you ever work short and long weapon combined it has a unique body mechanic

[YongChun]

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html

Don't know much about him but he talks lots about knife fighting realities.

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by Brodie Bortigno
Knife figthing....... is dealt with, very briefly, by Wong Shun Leung in an interview with Clive Potter

Clive is my instructor. I have posted this before on the topic of WC and Kali but ill post it again for anyone who may have missed it.

I Was at my instructors flat one night training and there was some sticks lying around so i picked one up and started doing some carenza (shadow boxing with the stick) and then started to show my training partner sumbrada (kali training drill at medium range a little like bonglap in concept- i strike from one angle- he counters then he strikes from another angle i counter etc.) and my instructor saw this and started copying what i was doing but more precisely more smoothly and more crisply then me. I then asked him how much kali he had done to which he replied very little- he has a student who learnt kali from Dan Inosanto- but that he could do it so effortlessly because the actions were very like the knives in WC- he then went through each action in sumbrada (roof block, inside sweep, downward block etc.) and said what each one was in wing chun. But he said that while the counters are practically the same the attacks in wing chun knives are more direct. He said he once saw a sparring session between WSL and Nino Bernado, Wsl with knives and Nino with Kali sticks. Each time Nino moved WSL had the knives in his face because while Nino would try to outflank him using Kali footwork WSL could just turn to face him and cut him off taking the shortest route.

I also wrote the following in response to a question about mixing WC and Kali:

Ive done WC for six years and have dabbled with Kali on the side.
Personally I prefer to concentrate on WC- but Kali can help you develop some key attributes such as understanding of range, flow, movement, timing, evasion, accuracy, footwork etc.

Its a very good art - especially if you want to learn weapons now rather than many years down the road.

Whether you want to do it is up to you- you might not want to sacrifice training time that could otherwise be spent on WC.

Many JKD guys like to mix the two - check out Paul vunaks stuff for more info.

Word of warning - sometimes the Kali concept will conflict with the WC concept e.g. in WC our target is the opponents COG while in Kali it is the attacking limb. Also in kali they 'lean' whereas as you know in WC we do not compromise our WC posture.

[sungkiti]

I trained in wing chun for a number of years under various teachers. This included training in both Australia nad in Hong Kong. For approximately a decade , I have been involved in the training and researching the filipino martial arts.

My employment has been involved in the security industry and has included club work, as well as personal protection. Such work and experiences in real life scenarios have, unfortunately provided me with situations where I have had to rely on my training.

Wing chun is a great martial art and offers one many positives for a street situation. But, when it comes to dealing with edged weapons, I personally feel it is not on the same level with kali/eskrima/arnis. Of course like with any thing, it is up to the individual. But remember, kali/eskrima/arnis weree originally bladed systems.

In FMA the student starts being taught how to use weapons. This is an important point to remember, as it provides the student with an understanding of the weapons and how they may be used against him. The Filipino masters generally believe that learning how to use a weapon first, provides a more effective understanding of the weapon in combat. Why? Because, you have already trained and developed th enecessary attributes required to defend against the weapon and also because you understand how the weapon may be used. In short, youare already proficient in the use of the weapon.

Because someone has trained in wing chun and can flow and use techniques in a 'çontrolled drill' really means little. A drill is a drill. I am based in the Philippines at this present time and I have seen quite a few wing chun guys visiting here think that it was the same. That is until they moved around with those who have trained in FMA and then reality came home.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Ernie
Ernie:
ray
thanks for bringing this thread back to honest perspective from some one who is both old school and has trained in application
as usual great post man

Ernie:
but i have a question , how did you feel the knife sparring changed your empty hand and foot work
not chi sau but real motion

Ray: Hi Ernie. When we did this training I felt that it had some tie in with handling kicks because the knife comes in from all kinds of angles and you develop quick in and out footwork or else your stomach gets sliced. The footwork developed is more lively looking than the Chum Kiu stepping but some structures that are used in empty hand Chi sau are probably compromised although at the Bil Jee level some of the rules can be broken.

Ernie:
for me everything got quicker and better balanced my timeing and feel became very crisp

Ray: I would agree with this also. Usually we spent too much time doing static Chi sau. The result was that no one could move when they needed to move but they were solid as a mountain. Without the static Chi sau everyone moved too much, like running away (in a non balanced , rooted way) as soon as an attack started. So the remedy was to balance the training somehow and some knife work helped in the mobility category. That's not to say there aren't all kinds of other non-knife methods that can drill lively footwork.

Ernie:
also the ability to adapt and fire from any posture improved

Ray: For me the SLT and CK level is more structured and robotic looking. With the SLT we learn to fight like a mountain. So we should be very rooted and solid (ideal picture). No one should be able to move you like in that Bruce Lee movie where the Thailand ice house boss tried to push Bruce Lee out of the way but he couldn't move him.

Then at the CK level we fight more like water, being fluid and mobile. The Dummy, knife and pole and BJ forms all contain ideas for more footwork and hence more versatile movement. The combination of all that could match the kind of footwork found in Escrima/Kali/Arnis/Boxing/Fencing I would say. If you get hit by a SLT or CK level practitioner then it will feel like getting poked with a stick or cut with a knife.

At the BJ level it might feel like you got hit by a whip because the whole body by that level is relaxed enough and rooted enough that you can issue force much like those good people in Chen style Tai Chi do (e.g. look for some clips of Chen Xiao Wang doing his form). Kenneth Chung talks about the third form in terms of developing penetrating energy. Wang Kiu talks about the third form as developing an energy similar to a dog shaking water off it's back. Some other master talk about the third form whipping power. Some WT people talk about the whole body being able to absorb energy. At any rate it takes time for the body to act like a whip and so learning the Biu Jee form very early has very little benefit because the movements themselves don't really give you an edge without certain other attributes being developed in my opinion. Some people have a totally different idea about this in that they talk about Qi and Dim Mak. This doesn't bother me either, the main idea is that another level of skill is added on to the SLT and CK and that can take off in different directions. So good SLT and CK is like good Hung style , powerful, rooted, fluid, mobile etc. After that you can delve into the point hitting or any other specialty in the Chinese martial arts or go the direction of the Chen people where the whole body becomes very fluid and explosive with the ability to issue strong energies or to absorb and neutralize strong forces.

The knife gives that extra realism needed for real combat because the knife is quick and dangerous. So I would say the knife stuff logically fits in after the Biu Jee and Dummy stuff as the next level of skill. However that doesn't mean you have to learn it after 15 years of Wing Chun. I think you can learn knife stuff from day 1. It just depends on your goals, teaching approach, learning ability and requirements (if you have to fight in a war next month then you need it now).

In my model guns, bombs, deception, dirty tactics, psychological warfare etc. probably form the next logical level and somewhere around Bil Jee level you can stick all the grappling stuff if you like.

For Me Wing Chun doesn't have to have any kinds of limits except at the beginner stages when limits must be imposed in order to develop strong but flexible structures and economical movements. By allowing too much freedom the student develops a lot of sloppy defenses, too many holes everywhere, no economy, no root, no power. After you go through that stage you can develop your skills using less restrictions.

Ernie:
kind of like supercharging my reflexes


also did you ever work short and long weapon combined it has a unique body mechanic

[Ernie]

good points and thank you for taking the time to answer

the main problem I see is when people develop the power in the early stages 1st and 2nd form . they hold on to it like a security blanket

the need all these prerequisites to maintain or achieve there security blanket , stand like this ,arms like this and so on

they seem to have a hard time finding that power and balance during natural motion

when you get them to stick or knife spar the get whacked like crazy sitting in or trying to assume a pose , or coming in to heavy and clunky

yet after a while the get lighter of foot and mind , there timing improves there reflexes are sharper

but there is a fine line , were bad habits can be developed
to much in and out or long range might develop the escape and back away reflex , were the miss opportunities that would have been there if they held there ground

but a smart person should be able to separate one from the other in there mind during training

any way thanks again

[YongChun]

http://www.coldsteel.com/articles.html

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Ray, Ernie,

Good points all around. It's safe to assume that taking the extreme on anything is not optimal. I'm sure we all know people who've developed solid bases but aren't lively enough (and I may be guilty of this). Then there are those who have jittery fast hands but has nothing to back them up. Their hits don't penetrate and you can just walk through them. You can put more emphasis on developing a solid base first and then work in the aliveness component into your training as you get better. Or you can emphasis aliveness from day one and incrementally develop and refine your base as go on.

Both approaches have their pros and cons, and what works best for someone generally depends on that someone and his/her teacher. As both Ray and Ernie pointed out, people can and do "get stuck" with either approach.

Alan

[russellsherry]

hi earnie , part of why i vcan use my wing chun a little, was based on what i read about tai chi from earl motuague s articals and he talked about fa ging energy , i thought he was quite , right
about this concept fa ging , of course is to expolde , out of the bloacks like a spinter so to speack. Earnie when you talk about,useing the philpino footwork, and knife bio mechanics it is the same thing promting energy transference but in a different manner , most fma also talk about te triangle footwork being exposive so i think you can use energy in this manner although i dont belive in chi peace russellsherry

[russellsherry]

hi nick , i always enjoy your posts, just remember, one important
thing , you said in regards, to wing chun bart jamm do it was wong shun leurng using the blades and it was nino using the sticks , wong would win evey time . it is good to see you meet a fine teacher like remy peras he was my guro roland dantes close friend and teacher nick type in roland dantes arnis see what comes up you will be suppised peace russell sherry

[sihing]

I would try to treat the knife similarly to a punch, watching and controlling the elbow would be key first. Obviously, the hands would be by the side, therefore forcing the opponent to execute some sort of committed attack. I agree with most, I would try to find some sort of weapon or instrument to use( belt, shoe, clothing wrapped around my arms). Using a distraction such as spitting in his/her face, attacking the legs, etc.. may be useful but caution would be advised. Master Lewadny has developed knife chi-sao drills to help us with knife fighting in our schools, I believe Filipino martial arts have something similar. I believe the chances of getting cut are very high in any confrontation with an opponent using a knife, but learning and practicing some sort of combat art is better than nothing. Running away is always a good option too, if possible.

James

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by YongChun
http://www.coldsteel.com/articles.html
Speaking of Cold Steel. I have a pair of their BJD. They are amazingly sharp and strong.
http://www.coldsteel.com/88bf.html

[russellsherry]

hi sifu james if you are a student sifu brian lewadey in canada'
please send him my regards i knew him when he was training at william cheungs i was a high grade at another wing chun school,
and he knew my senior chris stamilous former australian champion well peace russellsherry

[sihing]

hi, I will forward your message to Master Lewadny, I'm sure he will appreciate it very much. If you want to email him, please visit our associations web site here:www.wingchun-canada.com, and use the email there to contact Master Lewadny.

[GeneChing]

This wannabe samurai story (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?52919-Bad-Day-for-Samurai-Wannabes&p=1307763#post1307763) just got better....with Wing Chun (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?30153-WC-knife-defense)! I think this counts as a Successful Street Application (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?49825-Successful-Street-Applications).


She found a dating app on her boyfriend’s phone. Then she bought a samurai sword. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/03/15/she-found-a-dating-app-on-her-boyfriends-phone-then-she-bought-a-samurai-sword/?utm_term=.1751187ce81c)
By Kyle Swenson March 15 at 3:44 AM

With her boyfriend finally asleep, Emily Javier reached for the samurai sword she had secretly taped earlier to the side of the bed.

According to an affidavit filed by police, the room was dark, and she sparked her phone to see better. To aim better.

Below snoozed Alex Lovell. He played too many videos games, Javier would later explain to the police, and now he was cheating on her, she claimed. She knew the signs. Tinder on his phone. Scratches across his back. A girl’s hair in their shower drain. In the weak phone glow, Javier allegedly started hacking.

Lovell woke to his girlfriend of two years attacking him with a sword, police say. Survival instincts — mainly martial arts training and all the kung fu films he had watched — clicked in.

“I was able to wing chun my way to survival,” he told the Oregonian/OregonLive in an interview this week over Facebook messenger, referring to a Chinese martial art. He eventually wrapped Javier in a bear hug. “I saw the look in her eyes, and it scared the living poop out of me,” he told the news outlet. “I told her I loved her, and she was killing me. She needed to call police, or I was going to die.”

Javier broke off the attack and made the call, frantically telling a 911 operator she had stabbed her boyfriend and she thought he was dead. “You used a sword?” the operator asked.

When police did arrive at the scene on March 3, they found Lovell curled up in the blood-spattered bedroom, according to the probable cause affidavit filed by police in Camas, a Washington state town northeast of Portland, Ore. Remarkably, he survived the attack despite serious injuries. Lovell almost lost the index, middle and ring fingers on his hand. But in interviews this week, the competitive gamer sounded happy to be alive.

“I was just so proud for beating this samurai wannabe crazy lady with hate in her heart,” the 29-year-old told the Oregonian/OregonLive. “I’ve been preparing my whole life for something like this.”

Javier — who pleaded not guilty this week to first-degree attempted murder, according to the Columbian — had also allegedly been preparing.

Alex Lovell — known as “Biggie” in his local gamer scene — is an avid player of “PlayerUnknown’s Battleground,” a multiplayer online fighting game. As he told the Oregonian/OregonLive, Lovell has been recently logging 12 to 13 hours a day playing the game. The regimen also required “exercises for his hands, wrists and shoulders and also practicing mouse moves and techniques to maximize performance,” the paper reported.

“I wasn’t a sweaty nerd, more of an Ethlete,” Lovell told the Oregonian/OregonLive.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/U8Va76h3Xoj0ZqKYT2szDAi1lGw=/1484x0/arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/BLX5ING7SM6MTFSE3R5H27G5TQ.jpg
(iStock photo)

In an interview with police after the attack, Javier, 30, admitted she was frustrated with her boyfriend for staying glued to his game. Then, a week before the violent incident, Javier said she had discovered Lovell was unfaithful. According to the affidavit, she told police she discovered Tinder, the dating app, on his phone. She also noticed scratches on his back, possibly from a romantic encounter. She found red hair in the shower drain — her own hair was dyed green.

She did not confront her boyfriend. In the past, he had just denied such accusations. This time Javier went to the mall and bought a samurai sword. “I thought, I was gonna stab him while he was sleeping,” she told police.

The relationship reached a crisis point on March 2. According to the police affidavit, Lovell came home but ignored his girlfriend. She allegedly decided to go through with the attack, taping the sword and two knives to the bed. Javier also told police she hid Lovell’s phone so he could not call for help. When Lovell finally went to sleep, she reached for the sword.

In an interview with the Columbian this week, Lovell denied he was unfaithful. “I barely had time to hang out with my girlfriend, let alone another girl,” he told the paper. “I didn’t see it coming, but it makes sense that it happened. She obviously didn’t want anyone else to have me, so — samurai sword.”

Doctors were able to reattach Lovell’s fingers where they were nearly hacked off at the base. He also suffered wounds to his feet, legs, torso, neck and head. His right arm is in a cast. Members of the local gaming scene set up a GoFundMe page for his medical bills. The fund is just $2,000 shy of its $10,000 goal after 10 days.

Javier remains in custody. Her attorney did not return an email for comment.

“The feeling I had when I won the fight with my bare hands is just absolutely the best feeling,” Lovell boasted this week from the hospital. “I’ve played all the sports, won big games, landed some decent tricks on my snowboard. This was better.”

[wiz cool c]

Just so you know, that doesnt work at all. lol. The room for error is...well, all you gotta do is test it with a marker. You do need to control the weapon hand, but not by grabbing the wrist as he tries to strike.

My older brother who was a wrestler in high school used that very technique to save one of his friends in a bar fight. It worked for him ,so ........................
Best defense against a knife is first gain distance [if possible] then grab something and use it as an improvised weapon[if possible] if you are back up against a corner no where to run and nothing to use, you are forced to try to avoid ,capture and control. Realistically what else can you do?

[GeneChing]

Girlfriend pleads guilty to grisly, Tinder-inspired samurai sword attack (https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2019/01/girlfriend-pleads-guilty-to-grisly-tinder-inspired-samurai-sword-attack.html)
Updated Jan 29, 10:59 AM; Posted Jan 29, 10:58 AM

https://i.oregonlive.com/resizer/WTimHgzjFA39NdhL7F-9MmvUXf8=/600x0/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-advancelocal/public/AIKYMVBBNZFG7PCBWFAU5QOIZI.jpg
Alex Lovell (left) recovers in a hospital after being attacked with a samurai sword in March 2018. His girlfriend Emily Javier (right) plead guilty last week to attempted murder charges. (Courtesy of Alex Lovell / Associated Press)

By Shane Dixon Kavanaugh | The Oregonian/OregonLive

A Camas woman pleaded guilty to trying to kill her live-in boyfriend with a samurai sword after she claimed to find a Tinder dating app on his phone.

Emily Javier, 31, will face up to 20 years in prison for attempted first-degree domestic violence murder, according to The Columbian.

She will be sentenced March 11.

The grisly attack drew national and international headlines last year, both because of Javier’s choice of weapon as well as her boyfriend’s easygoing attitude about the whole episode.

"I was just so proud for beating this samurai wannabe crazy lady with hate in her heart," Alex Lovell told The Oregonian/OregonLive. Emily Javier, his girlfriend, faces attempted murder charges.

“I was just so proud for beating this samurai wannabe crazy lady with hate in her heart,” an upbeat Alex Lovell, then 29, told The Oregonian/OregonLive from his hospital bed.

Javier told police she had hatched the brutal assault on Lovell because she discovered he had a Tinder dating app on his phone and suspected he had been cheating on her, records show.

She also fumed over his penchant for playing video games, according to a probable cause affidavit.

Enraged, Javier said she went to a shopping mall and purchased a samurai sword.

She said she then spent the next week stewing and plotting her revenge before whipping out the saber and repeatedly slashing Lovell in bed during the wee hours of March 3, 2018.

"There's too much blood!" Emily Javier told a dispatcher after she said she attacked her boyfriend with a samurai sword, 911 audio obtained by The Oregonian/OregonLive shows.

Lovell, who admitted to playing video games 12 hours a day but insisted he was never unfaithful, suffered life-threatening injuries, including wounds to his torso, neck and the left side of his head.

His index, middle and ring fingers were nearly lopped off at the base, though doctors managed to reattach them, he said.

Though facing months of recovery, Lovell remained positive.

“I was able to wing chun my way to survival,” he said, referring to a traditional Chinese martial art that focuses on close-range combat.

"I've been preparing my whole life for something like this."

THREADS
wannabe samurai story (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?52919-Bad-Day-for-Samurai-Wannabes&p=1307763#post1307763)
Wing Chun (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?30153-WC-knife-defense)
Successful Street Application (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?49825-Successful-Street-Applications).