Trapping!**%$/!!

[old jong]

Why is it that when I hear or read!...That word,I feel like somebody is talking bad about wing chun?To me ,it has a "hand chasing" resonnance to it much like a JKD crosstrainer would have! I hate it when people on other sites talk about wing chun as the "trapping range" style! :mad: What do you think about this?

C'est la vie!

[Highlander]

I agree. When I read posts about trapping, it sounds like hand chasing also. Personnaly I think trapping is very misunderstood. I would like to qualify that as outside the Wing Chun world, but I think there are many in the Wing Chun world that don't understand it either. I am no expert on trapping, if fact I am still working on getting it to work for me, but my understanding is: Trapping opportunities present themselves, you can't force them. Take advantage of the opportunities and traps will occur natually. Trying to force an unnatural trap is just wrestling.

Sorry, about the tone, I'm really in a bad mood. :(

[OdderMensch]

We only use traping against someone with a good centerline defense. Otherwise why bother? Just hit them.

[Watchman]

My sifu told me once that the real defintion of "Trapping" was when you can hit him, but he can't hit you.

That pretty much makes it as simple as you can get it.

Just like OM said, if he doesn't hold his lines, smack him. If he tries to fight you from a distance - bridge and smack him; if he tries to fight your arms - clear/trap and THEN smack him; if he backs away - stick and smack him. Above all - SMACK HIM.

Now you've got me ranting and frothing at the mouth. I feel your pain Old Jong, I really do.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Sunt hic etiam sua praemia laveli
"Here too virtue has its due reward."

[Watchman]

BTW, don't you just love it when JKD practioners presume to tell you what Wing Chun is all about? :mad: :rolleyes:

Man, I better have my kids hide the keys to my gun safe now. :eek: :eek:

[WongFeHung]

I view trapping this way: You don't go in there to trap, you go in there to hit. If something gets in the way, you trap it, and continue with plan A- Hit.

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Phon sau(sp?) is commonly translated as trapping, but I've always liked the other translation of "sealing", ie: to bind an opponents limb sealing off one or more of the four basic gates, or say moon. I've always thought that translating it as "trapping" tended to imply pinning of the arms with every movement, definately with too much chasing of the hands. Just something to think about.....

Thanks!
Sandman[Wing Chun]
Wing Chun Forum Moderator.
Student-www.authentickungfu.com

[tiger_1]

my friend old jong and onthers wing chun people im strong suport you inyour opinion - pure wing chun that is road for us im mean - just friendly tiger_1 ;)

/

[Black Jack]

Whats with all the bogus JKD bashing????

I hate to say it but if it was not for Bruce you guys would be so far in the dark about your precious martial art in this country that there is a big chance that you would be training something else...truth hurts.

I think a lot of what people call trapping is a waste of time and they spend a good portion of there time chasing hands instead of going in for the shot.

I understand the need for trapping and it is in my arsenal but you should be *****ing about other WC schools and not JKD.

Trapping is a lot harder to do when the situation is dynamic and you are not starting out from some pre-set referrence point.

I "used" to have a Wing Chun buddy who whenever we would get together to cross hands insisted on setting up the old famous reference point and not just out and out sparring.

He was in his element when we are squared off but when we sparred he was a duck out of water who had some of the worst footwork I have ever seen.

Regards

[old jong]

I don't want to "*****" JKD but there are peoples who are mixing apples and oranges.JKD is an offshot of wing chun and not the countrary! and...I wonder if it would have even existed if B.L. had completed his studies of wing chun! ;)

C'est la vie!

[Watchman]

>>>>>Whats with all the bogus JKD bashing????<<<<<

I wasn't bashing JKD, per se.

I was bashing the phenomenan of many JKD practitioners believing they have an informed opinion on Wing Chun JUST because they do JKD and think they know how to do pak sau and roll their arms around.

If your friend's footwork sucked, it sucked. If he couldn't fight, he couldn't fight. Doesn't have anything to do with me.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Sunt hic etiam sua praemia laveli
"Here too virtue has its due reward."

[Black Jack]

I like Wing Chun but I have to fix some comments made here.

1. JKD is not a offshot of Wing Chun. JunFan/JKD is the personal exprementation of Bruce Lee on those ARTS he studied to form his own and better method of personal combat.

JKD Concepts is the personal exprementation of of a individual to form their own and better method of personal combat and that may or may not include Wing Chun Gung Fu.

I would never tell anybody anything about Wing Chun or that I did Wing Chun just because I do JKD. What we do is so much different that would be unfair and it's like stating that just because I have a Chasse bas in my arsenal that I can teach or do Savate. :rolleyes:

I am sure there are guy's out there who do that crap but if you are looking with the social outlook on trapping you can only realy blame the bad schools in your own style.

I mean besides what has happened to Tai Chi we all know that Wing Chun is next in line to become the TKD of gung fu due to its popularity and we all know frauds love popularity.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Regards

[old jong]

Well,once uppon a time,Bruce Lee,already a starr returned to Hong Kong to see his old wing chun master;Yip Man.He offered a big sum of money to Yip Man in order to be able to film Yip Man doing siu lim tao and learn the mook yan jeong from him.Yip Man,having his own reasons decided to refuse!...Bruce Lee,disapointed returned to the states and realising he would never be no:1 in wing chun decided to create his own style thus becomming founder and master.He started to change his teaching to his students who had been recieving fairly pure wing chun since the beginning.How could we say that jkd is not an offshot from wing chun?...Is it bad in some way?...
BTW...Regarding the popularity problem...I think that BJJ could be more in danger of becomming the next tkd!...don't you think

C'est la vie!

[Black Jack]

I have heard htat myth over and over again but I have yet to see any conclusive proof from the wing chun people that encounter ever happened or that it was EVER the catalyst for his personal system of JKD.

It was a personal discovery that made him change and search out other arts to fix and improve his fighting ability that Wing Chun did not cover for him and those limitations he encountered on a personal level.

Wing Chun is great and I could care less what people call my own style but Jun Fan JKD is something so different from classical Wing Chun that it would not be fair for Wing Chun as a style.

A person's JKD Concepts could be very Wing Chun focused and there would be nothing wrong with that and it would be a very smart choice but it still would not be Wing Chun.

Even Wing Chun is not Wing Chun with all the different groups, lines and families if you know what I mean. :)

Regards

[doomicon]

I appreciate the posts clarifying the trapping/
sealing. I am knew to Wing Chun and it is
really cool having things clarified on a daily
basis.

As earlier posted, on my initial readings of
WC, I understood the translation to be "sealing"
as well.

As for the WC/JKD stuff, please start a new
thread for that topic.

mah $0.02


Thanks
RobO

[old jong]

You know,when it comes to Bruce Lee,it is more a religious than logical matter sometimes!Everybody is entitled to his beliefs so it's O.K. ! We should agree that his concept is a crossover of boxing,fencing(yes!)wrestling,TKD!!!(he took lessons from Joon Rhee!!!) and everything he could read on.All of this was on top of his limited wing chun training under Yip Man,William Cheung and some others!...It is not legends it is facts.I don't see myself as talking bad about him by saying this!
BTW,It is true that Wing Chun has many variants.It always had! Even before Yip Man's times! So,it is not a problem.On the countrary,I shows that our system is very much alive

C'est la vie!

[jason8]

I think in some ways Bruce Lee is getting a raw deal. It was never his intention for JDK to become a "style" rather it was meant to be a theory.

Bruce wanted martial artists to constantly eliminate what was useless or impractical in a real fight (the principles of simplicity and daily decrease). But this wasn't a blanket thing. A techniques usefulness depended on the individual practitioner's own abilities.

Furthermore, and i feel this is lost in modern JKD, Bruce wanted EXPERIENCED martial artists to apply this theory. The goal was to be unencumbered by tradition and to distill your style into its most effective form for you. After that a practitioner was supposed to use his experience to evaluate what techniques were lacking in his arsenal and search out compatible techniques from other styles to supplement it.

From what i understand Bruce lee liked teaching and training with experienced martial artists, not necessarily masters, but people who were ready to adopt this philosophy. These individuals had the ability to evaluate their techniques and eliminate the impractical. From that point it became about discovering the techniques of others that may fill the holes in the artist's system. However, that did not mean that one ought to continue borrowing techniques from other martial arts ad nauseum. The person was supposed to eliminate constantly whenever he or she found anything more effective. For instance, imagine at the genesis of wing chun people were using both straight chain punching and hook punching. It would not take long for them to figure out that the chain punches were getting in faster and that the hook was impractical for them (based on the other principles and strategies of their style). Contrary to this, western boxing has a place for the hook as it has proven to be effective in their style because of how it is used by the boxer. JKD says that both of these are correct, the boxer should keep the hook and the wing chun practitioner should lose it.

Today though, in some schools (from what i've heard and gleen from browsing through JKD magazines) all many JKD stylists do is add to their bag of tricks. Somebody on this forum has the tag line (and im going to paraphrase it pretty badly) "i dont fear the 10 000 kicks you know, but i do fear the kick you've practiced 10 000 times". Ultimately, if a martial artist could use one type of punch,1 kick and 1 grappling move and never be defeated then that is all he or she should know and that would be the ultimate expression of the JKD philosophy.

The problem is that JKD is a theory that should be taught to martial artists, ones who have a base in some system, and not to individuals with no experience. The martial artist only has to distill his or her art into its most effective form for him/her and add several techniques to complement that but the novice has to develop a whole martial art from scratch (AND they have INSUFFICIENT backgroung in fighting to allow them to evaluate what to include!!!). The novice accumulates moves from different styles never disgarding nearly enough. This was not bruce lee's intention as i understand it.

As well i have seen JKD instructors who are proudly displaying techniques from other styles in magazines. Who's to say that they have the nuances right?? I saw Jerry Poteet demonstrating Bong-lap da in a mag this month and his bong elbow was high over his shoulder! I dont know about the rest of you, but anytime i see someone with their elbow over their shoulder in the bong position im happy to get under it and throw them off balance. Im not saying that Jerry Poteet isnt a great fighter, i dont know, im just saying that the movement he is showing is wrong based on my experience. That said, a JKD practioner has to be very careful as to the source of his/her new techniques. My sifu once said that if you practice a technique 100 times wrong all you're better at is performing it wrong.

All in all, i think every experienced martial artist should practice a little of the JKD philosophy to trim the fat from their personal interpretation of their own respective system.

Sorry about the length of this post, everything said in it is my interpretation (so blame it on me if you disagree),

take care,

jason

[greyseal]

As for the JKD coming from Wing Chun, true, in both a mental and physical aspect! Wing Chun stresses, and this may sound kind of familiar...use only what is necessary, and what works. The aim of Wing Chun is to control your opponent/defeat your opponent with as little wasted energy as possible. Consider it and I think you'll see that it is what WC boils down to. What you do with the skills you have learned, and how you apply them in a given situation is up to you. In Wing Chun you adapt to the situation, and roll with it. Pun intended.
:D :D :D

[tiger_1]

my friend im mean no hard fil. but that jeet kun do is efectif only in hands of brus . for wing chun JKD is only cildren game . and pls im hope for future only w.c. people here not jkd. and onthers . for onthers style im have one fine place is col DISNILEND if you dnt beliwe me pls see strong chi sao and than we can see pls . just friendly tiger_1 ;)

/

[tiger_1]

my friend black jack if JKD dnt have parth of chi sao from wing chun that style is be ???????????? and pls dnt talking for wing chun cose only in pure kung fu have that menatal and haragei power , and only road for direct penetration to oponent is chi sao from wing chun . family of tree!!!!!!!!!!!!! not some carati boxing aicido cap cong sui jeet kun do space style . but - just friendly tiger_1 ;)

/

[rogue]

Here's a quote from a JKD student.

"Most styles specialize in just one range (TKD for kicking, wing chun for trapping, bjj for ground, etc.)."

Good to see that WC is good for at least one thing. :)

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[atsai]

How did this thread turned into another jkd debate anyway? :)

<TABLE BORDER="3" CELLSPACING="1" CELLPADDING="1"><TR><TD><form><INPUT TYPE="button" VALUE=" Art T " onClick="parent.location='http://people.we.mediaone.net/arttsai/home.html'"></TD></TR></table></form><HR Width="97%">"You fight like you train." --Motto, USN Fighter Weapon School (TOPGUN)

[Watchman]

It was my fault. :(

[old jong]

Yes...It's your fault!...you %$&?*&?((*&*? :D :D :D You're in love and you have lost your centerline!!!! :D :D :D

C'est la vie!

[rogue]

Do WC people ever learn to strike or do they just trap all day? ;)

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[Highlander]

rogue ....... What a strike? :confused:

[Watchman]

Old Jong.....what's a centerline? :confused:

[4 Ranges]

I agree with a lot of what he's saying. JKD is definitely not an off-shoot of Wing Chun. On the surface, it bears little resemblance to Wing Chun. On a strategic level, there are a few similarities. But, then again, you find the same principles in boxing, fencing, savate, bjj, etc.

The problem really lies in the fact that many people think of JKD as a style, when it isn't. Now, JUN FAN (Lee's modified wing chun) was a style. If you look at something as a style (Jun Fan), then you can find it's roots (Wing Chun). There's a progression.

But JKD is SO DIFFERENT from Jun Fan because Bruce Lee didn't arrive at it out of some intellectual impetus; the REALITIES of combat dictated that he, as a martial artist, EVOLVE. In other words, THE TRUTH OF HIS EXPERIENCE as a fighter and individual dictated his arrival at JKD. Not because he couldn't get Sifu Yip Man to teach him the deepest darkest secrets of Wing Chun and the wooden dummy (which btw, has been published in a book called the 108 movements of the Mook Jong, with Yip Man performing them for all to see, so where's the secret, really?), but because REALITY dictated that he evolve into a fighter that was capable of handling a true combat situation. NECESSITY formed JKD; not hubris.

Of course, the obvious question is: then what the eff is it? I'd really, really love to answer that question...but I don't have the words for it, really. Just like Wing Chun, and pretty much any other style of combat, it must be experienced in order for it to be understood by the individual.

To understand JKD is to experience it.

Never confuse sparring with fighting. One is an exchange of skill; the other an exchange of blood.

[JasBourne]

"The problem is that JKD is a theory that should be taught to martial artists, ones who have a base in some system, and not to individuals with no experience."

Agreed. I think Bruce is turning in his grave right now at the way his theories have been turned into a cash machine...

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[Watchman]

>>>"The problem is that JKD is a theory that should be taught to martial artists, ones who have a base in some system, and not to individuals with no experience."<<<

So what exactly is the theory that should be taught?

[rogue]

Also what fighting realities was Lee facing, weather Robin could beat Kato?

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[mikey]

rogue! you slay me!
I was practicing trapping yesterday-
I made out with three raccoon pelts... ;)

[old jong]

Come on Rogue! Robin was "lethal!" Why do you think he was Batman's "best" friend?...EH? ;)

C'est la vie!

[rogue]

Carp guys! I spelled whether wrong! :mad:

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[JasBourne]

Ok, so this is just my opinion, all you JKD dudes don't get your knickers in a twist ;)

From what I understand from reading Bruce's work, his was a method of approaching fighting and understanding what to do about it. He aimed to train people to think about what was right for them, not how to fit themselves into someone else's idea of how to fight. By its nature, it presupposes some foundational training to begin with. I myself am interested in studying JKD principles, but only after I feel I have a very good solid foundation in my mother art, wing chun. And I don't think that will be for many years still. :D In my opinion, JKD is a graduate course, not a freshman curriculum, and as such I think there is a disservice being done in teaching it as a fundemental 'style'. Just my opinion here. :cool:

peace,
Jas

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[kungfu cowboy]

LOL@ rogue! And I didn't know Robin was a sadist! Go figure!(BTW, what exactly does the expletive "carp guys!" mean?)

[S.Teebas]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ...but because REALITY dictated that he evolve into a fighter that was capable of handling a true combat situation. NECESSITY formed JKD... [/quote]

I dont know about anyone else, but I feel im evolving every time i train. My WC today has evolved ALOT since 1 year ago, and will evolve even more in another 10 years. I dont see how JKD evolved out of nesessity when Martial Artists have been doing it for centuries!

Anyone care to explain? :confused:

[Watchman]

Jas,

I understand the theory behind JKD (hey, I read ToJKD!). It's just that I've never encountered any grand revelations on fighting in any material on JKD, or from any JKD practioner, that I didn't already learn in Wing Chun.

So I guess what the question is.....what's the big deal? because I'm not seeing what it is.


http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Sunt hic etiam sua praemia laveli
"Here too virtue has its due reward."

[JasBourne]

Good point - what is the big deal? I'm not sure, to be honest. But I think this 'thinking about what is right for me' might be useful to me in the future, as a way to check on my rigidity. I don't know about any startling revelations in fighting ;)

Right now, I am learning tools, and application of tools. When the applications are second nature through repetition, have I locked myself out of optimum performance because I have not adjusted to my own strengths and weaknesses? Am I doing a move 'so' and a strategy 'such' because that is what I have been training, or because that really is the best way for me, my body, my mind?

Things I think about :)

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[remo]

JasBourne,

I think you are right on target.

[old jong]

Is'nt it a lot simpler and quicker to make wing chun your own way? Anyway we all adapt the wing chun motions to "our own" body,strengh,weakness,styles,moods,etc etc! We should not be "slaves of a futile liberty!" :D

C'est la vie!

[DrunkMonkeyFist1]

I'm sure I haven't been in the wing chun world as long as many of you have but isn't trapping an oppurtunistic way of sealing your opponents bridges when they cross their centerline and thus present the oppurtunity "to Trap" ?
Well that's the way its supposed to be in Wing Chun, but yes in alot of JKD traps you see the practioner "trapping" themselves in order to execute a simultainous punch /block combination, which is kind of ironic because when one uses the term Trapping, you would figure they're trying to trap the opponents arms, instead of their own
( I'm saying arms in relation to chi sao, trapping doesn't necessarily mean only the arm bridges) :cool:

[tiger_1]

my friends whatyou talking ?rouge you talking about some game here ? can stydent be better of masters? can JKD be stronger of wing chun ? JKD is fine again street fighter but again wingchun or CLF ? my any combatis good but here in wingchun we have somting else and im mean more more of you can see . ok just friendly - tiger_1
( pls see good in past and you can see many ) :cool:

/

[tiger_1]

my friends PLS CAN SOME TALKING TO ME IM MEAN NOT FROM WING CHUN COMBAT WHAT IS FINAL TARGET IN JKD ? TO BE FINE STREET FIGHTER ? A? OR IN ONTHERS DERIVAT AND CILDREN GAME ? FINal TARGET ?A?
- JUST FRIENDLY TIGER_1 :cool: show to man tho see meatmorfose of wing chun and im can show you the man of kung fu

/

[tnwingtsun]

The object is to strike,not to trap,trapping just happens on the way to your target.


Trapping happens.


Nice bumper sticker. ;)