Stone Weights of Shaolin

[KombatKid]

Can anyone help me out with this?

I put this post in the Shaolin Section but it doesnt seem like that part gets much traffic so I'm reposting it here.
I was looking through my back issues and I read an interesting article in the January 2003 issue called "Stone lock training pumps you up."

The stone handled weights in the article look great for increasing grip strength and developing strong arms. I tried some movements with a dumbbell but I bet that wasnt even close to the real thing. The Shaolin monks didn't mess around.

Does anyone know where I can find some of these or if someone even makes them at all?
-Kid

[Royal Dragon]

Someone posted a link to a site that sells them (me I think). I think they are metal versions of the Stone locks though. I started a thread about it as they sell really weird training equipment, like a 6000 pound stone ball for instance. Try a search on the 6000 pound stone ball, I think it was the title of my thread.

[YinYangDagger]

http://www.atomicathletic.com/shop/tek9.asp?pg=products&grp=62

[Royal Dragon]

Yup, Thats it!!!

[KombatKid]

Oh my God!!

The authentic article, thats exactly what I've been looking for and in three different sizes!

That could be the coolest equipment company site ever. Stone Balls, grip tools, anchor chains, man, I know where my monthly bonus is going.

Check out this thing:

http://www.atomicathletic.com/shop/tek9.asp?pg=products&specific=joermrf0

[SevenStar]

Those locks don't seem any different than a kettlebell (http://www.kettlebells-circular-core-strength-training.com/ggkettlebells.html) - I bet they are used in the same manner as well.

[KombatKid]

I have used Russian Kettlebells before and I know you couldnt do this (http://www.atomicathletic.com/shop/tek9.asp?pg=products&specific=joeqrpq8) with a kettlebell. Not to mention that these are real stone locks just like the monks used!

I just bought a pair of each size stone padlock, Ill keep everyone posted when I get them.

Looks like you could get several different types of kettlebells (http://www.atomicathletic.com/shop/tek9.asp?pg=products&grp=47) on that site too if you wanted. Amazing.

[YinYangDagger]

yeah KK, keep us posted, I've been curious about them myself...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by KombatKid
I have used Russian Kettlebells before and I know you couldnt do this (http://www.atomicathletic.com/shop/tek9.asp?pg=products&specific=joeqrpq8) with a kettlebell.

I bet you can. that would be no different than striking with dumbells... the lock/ kettlebell may work your forearm more, however. That lock he's holding in that pic is only 10 lbs. They know make 9lb kettlebells, so you should be able to do that with them.


Not to mention that these are real stone locks just like the monks used!

that's true. That alone doesn't impress me though...

I just bought a pair of each size stone padlock, Ill keep everyone posted when I get them.

do that. We're always interested in hearing results of people's training.

[KombatKid]

I bet you can. that would be no different than striking with dumbells... the lock/ kettlebell may work your forearm more, however. That lock he's holding in that pic is only 10 lbs. They know make 9lb kettlebells, so you should be able to do that with them.

I doubt it, due to the design of the kettlebell. The center of mass is too far away from the handle. Its a possibility that you might be able to do it with a nine pound kettlebell but nothing heavier. Also, theres the issue of striking with a horizontal and vertical fist, you sure cant do both with a kettlebell.

Yes, you could do that with dumbbells but isn't the whole idea to strengthen the wrist and forearms as well since this contributes to striking power? Sounds like that alone would make it worth it.

In any case, if these stone locks are half as cool as they look in the pics, I'll be satisfied.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

I just ordered myself a set of these babies, don't have the storage space for a full set of kettlebells or stone padlocks. :D

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000E2ERY/102-9652927-2756945?_encoding=UTF8

[IronFist]

Why is it called a padlock? I thought a padlock was one of those things with the spinner wheel combination on it.

btw, from that site, this (http://www.atomicathletic.com/gallery/resize_width.asp?path=D:\Inetpub\wwwroot\atomicath eletic.com\html\images\gallery\val.JPG&width=400) is amazing.

[KombatKid]

They are called stone padlocks because they resemble traditional chinese padlocks like these. (http://www.oldbeads.com/east210.jpg)

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by KombatKid
They are called stone padlocks because they resemble traditional chinese padlocks like these. (http://www.oldbeads.com/east210.jpg)

I know them under the name of Stone locks and the look like ancient chinese/japanese locks.

Those are U-shaped and the Pin slides across the open end and thus closes the lock.

Pity, I just threw an old japanese box with a suck a lock away otherwise I could post a pic of it and the key to unlock it.

Aah, found a pic:

http://www.johnrausch.com/PuzzleWorld/puz/img/chinese_locks_1.jpg

[KombatKid]

Oh Man,
Atomic Athletic site is getting better and better by the minute.

Check this (http://atomicathletic.com/gallery/resize_width.asp?path=D:\Inetpub\wwwroot\atomicath eletic.com\html\images\gallery\stone20ball2.jpg&width=400) out

[Chang Style Novice]

From Taijimonkey's amazon link upthread

"Instantly change the weight with a simple twist of the dial."

Whuh?

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
From Taijimonkey's amazon link upthread

"Instantly change the weight with a simple twist of the dial."

Whuh?

The set I am getting is 20kg(44pounds), it consists of 8 weights (2.5kg each). 2.5kg --> 5.0kg --> 7.5kg --> ....
The dial allows you to select how many weights you pick up out of the stack.

I tried them out in the Shop and they seemed ok for me.

[Chang Style Novice]

Okay, that makes sense then. I was picturing some magical device that added mass out of - I dunno, some wormhole attached to dial or something.

Clever design! Which I always appreciate.

[ShaolinTiger00]

The 10 Pound Stone Padlocks are particularly effective for practicing striking movements which can increase your punching power. No other implement stresses the wrists as effectively during this movement.

Sorry to burst you bubble boys but this is bunk. Punching with weights, wether it is barbells, weighted gloves, "stone padlocks" or any other thing will do exactly ZIP for your punching power.

Why? (I'm sure you'd like me to justify my stance.)

The power of a punch comes from the power and rotation of the legs, thru the torso thru the shoulder and down the stright line of "fused" hook of your arm to the target. Power comes from the ground up not from the strength of your shoulder! this method advocated above is backwards of the truth they're trying to apply mass at the end of the arm!! bull****!!! and it's dangerous the connective joints and stabilizers. This can be very bad for your bones and joints over extended periods.

[KombatKid]

I was under the impression that this meant more deliberate and controlled movements that would stress and strengthen the upperbody musculature and wrists.

Everyone knows that trying to practice full striking movements with weights is stupid.

[kungfu cowboy]

Everyone but me. And now I am a human torso.:(

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by IronFist
Why is it called a padlock? I thought a padlock was one of those things with the spinner wheel combination on it.

btw, from that site, this (http://www.atomicathletic.com/gallery/resize_width.asp?path=D:\Inetpub\wwwroot\atomicath eletic.com\html\images\gallery\val.JPG&width=400) is amazing.

nah, it's a pad lock. They look like this: []> and have a keyhole on the bottom. What you are referring to is called a combination lock.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
Everyone but me. And now I am a human torso.:(

you should join the cast of the oblongs (http://epguides.com/Oblongs/)

[kungfu cowboy]

:D

[Royal Dragon]

Sorry to burst you bubble boys but this is bunk. Punching with weights, wether it is barbells, weighted gloves, "stone padlocks" or any other thing will do exactly ZIP for your punching power.

Reply]
WHAT?? Ever do 50 upper cuts wile holding a bucket of water in your hand? Put the bucket down, and do a few more and you can ALREADY see the difference!! How can it NOT help?

I can see for a straight punch, or a cross thrown from a good guard.......maybe, but for ANY punch that comes up from the chest or lower, resistance training is going to help..........................alot. Barbells, Locks water buckets, anything.

Let say you drop your elbow to jamb a kick to the ribs. You see your opponent dropped his guard a bit when he kicked, and you have a clear shot to the jaw. Watch the motion of your arm, it RISES from the shoulder as the fist shoots out straight. It HAS to as the arm goes from the bent, to near locked out position. Hell, even a straight punch from a good guard causes the elbow to RISE during the punching motion.

Try this: hold your right hand in a good guard. Now, take your left hand and put it over your inside elbow at a height just even with the top of your shoulder. Punch out and see what happens. Anyone smack thier hand with their Bicep??? It did that becasue the shoulder pulled the upper arm UP, as the Tricep compressed to straighten it. That proves the sholder DOES work even in a straight punch boys. How the hell can holding a lock wile drilling this motion NOT help develop a strong punch at this point. ESPECIALLY with the development of wrist and shoulder strength??

Really, think about it? Add some Stone Lock practice to your pushups, a good bench routine and some heavy bag work, and your going to have a rock crushing punch. And I bet it will happen ALOT faster than not adding the Stone Lock practice.

Even in a straight punch or cross, strong shoulders, and wrists help from just a connective strength aspect. Strong legs are useless in a punch, if your upper body buckles under the pressue because it is too weak. All that power is just going to get difused in the arm if it's not just as strong (purprtionaltly) as the lower body. Same goes for the core. You are only as strong as your weakest link.

Face it, the stronger you are, the harder you hit PERIOD!

[GeneChing]

Roger LaPointe, the mastermind behind Atomic, just signed on as a member of this forum. He's a great resource when it comes to weightlifting and I hope he'll join in this conversation. I highly recommend his services when it comes to tradition weight training suppliers. He's really the only game in town. You'll find that he's an extraordinary resource.

[ShaolinTiger00]

WHAT?? Ever do 50 upper cuts wile holding a bucket of water in your hand? Put the bucket down, and do a few more and you can ALREADY see the difference!! How can it NOT help?

you stupid stupid man..


of course you're going to punch faster after holding a "bucket of water". YOU'RE NO LONGER HOLDING A BUCKET OF WATER!!!

:rolleyes:

Your delusional if you think this method makes your punches faster... or stronger.

[Pork Chop]

ST00

I knew someone who used to say it'd help with power if you punched at an upward angle, so at least the muscles extending the arm would be fighting gravity and the added weight you were holding.

Personally I shadow with really light hand weights to improve the endurance in my shoulders for keeping my hands up.

Otherwise, yah, the resistance is along a completely different plane (gravity pullong on the vertical plane while the punch traverses the horizontal), and the ability to move resistance is not necessarily the type of movement you're looking for (you want a snap not a push).

Still, there is a markable difference in motor control and speed in punching with gloves of different sizes (10ozes vs 22 per say).

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

I can see for a straight punch, or a cross thrown from a good guard.......maybe, but for ANY punch that comes up from the chest or lower, resistance training is going to help..........................alot. Barbells, Locks water buckets, anything.

Let say you drop your elbow to jamb a kick to the ribs. You see your opponent dropped his guard a bit when he kicked, and you have a clear shot to the jaw. Watch the motion of your arm, it RISES from the shoulder as the fist shoots out straight. It HAS to as the arm goes from the bent, to near locked out position. Hell, even a straight punch from a good guard causes the elbow to RISE during the punching motion.

an uppercut is more than just your arm raising at the elbow. You use your legs to drive... true, it rises from the shoulder, but in conjunction with your legs driving upward.


Try this: hold your right hand in a good guard. Now, take your left hand and put it over your inside elbow at a height just even with the top of your shoulder. Punch out and see what happens. Anyone smack thier hand with their Bicep??? It did that becasue the shoulder pulled the upper arm UP, as the Tricep compressed to straighten it. That proves the sholder DOES work even in a straight punch boys. How the hell can holding a lock wile drilling this motion NOT help develop a strong punch at this point. ESPECIALLY with the development of wrist and shoulder strength??

naturally the shoulder is used in punching, but the sole use of it makes for a weak punch. compared to the power coming from using your body to drive the punch, added benefit from lock training would be minimal.


Really, think about it? Add some Stone Lock practice to your pushups, a good bench routine and some heavy bag work, and your going to have a rock crushing punch. And I bet it will happen ALOT faster than not adding the Stone Lock practice.

you know we're die hard about verification. Try it. post results.

Even in a straight punch or cross, strong shoulders, and wrists help from just a connective strength aspect.

which is developed from merely hitting a bag - don't really NEED a lock for that benefit.


Strong legs are useless in a punch, if your upper body buckles under the pressue because it is too weak. All that power is just going to get difused in the arm if it's not just as strong (purprtionaltly) as the lower body. Same goes for the core. You are only as strong as your weakest link.



see above about bagwork.

[Roger LaPointe]

Hello Everyone,
Gene, thank you so much for your kind words, I'll be in touch.

I created Atomic Athletic for people who want the highest quality equipment and who take their training seriously. Our customers include Pro-football Players, Worlds Strongest Man guys, Mixed Martial Artists and many guys you've never heard of who lift in their garage and do unbelievable things.

After a lot of research, I saw that one of the more unusual martial arts training tools, the stone lock, was not available anywhere and would be a perfect addition to my selection of unusual training equipment. They are carved from the highest quality granite imported straght from China and meticulously designed in the traditional stlyes. We are looking at several new designs and weights but currently have three different weights to choose from.

Stone Balls, which have also been used in martial arts training for years, are one of our hallmark products. We feature several sizes and styles to choose from.

I have trained in several martial art styles and I am also a competitive Olympic lifter. If anyone has any weightlifting, training or equipment questions I would be happy to answer them. Email me at roger@atomicathletic.com

I encourage all of you to take a look around my site, we have the coolest equipment available anywhere and a great selection of training books and courses. Be sure to sign up for the Bomb Proof Bulletin on the front page of my site for weekly workouts, training tips and strength news.

Live Strong!

www.atomicathletic.com (http://www.atomicathletic.com)

[Royal Dragon]

Seven Star,
I fully understand the importnac eof full body in any sort of attack, like an upper cut. My point, is you can and DO work the full body with a stone lock, or a water bucket.

You don't just stand there, and isolate the shoulder, you are suposed to actually use the same motion as if you WERE upper cutting. anytime you find a way to take a motion, and load it with weight, that motion will get stronger.

I will repete the last line of my post, so it's really clear where I stand.

Face it, the stronger you are, the harder you hit PERIOD!

[SevenStar]

Since you like that last line so much, I'll address it first. you are punching WITH A 10 LB LOCK! How much strength is that gonna add to you? I'll tell you - none. Unless you're just completely out of shape. What it will do is train your endurance - that means it will come in handy late in the fight when your arms start to feel heavy - you'll have the endurance to keep them up.

Now, we've established that you're not really getting any stronger, let's address the thought that punching with weight will make you faster, which should do something for your punching power, correct? your hands are supposed to move faster after you put the weight down - why? BECAUSE THEY ARE EMPTY.

So, you aren't getting stronger, and you aren't punching faster... all that leaves with is endurance, which I already stated.

[SevenStar]

ttt

[Tainan Mantis]

We use those stone locks too.
We have them made by tombstone cutters.

We only use one at a time and employ variuos throws around the body.
The weigh around 20-30 pounds.

I have been using one for about 5 years on and off.
I can usually throw 60 timesbefore I get dizzy so I would say it is more endurance.
Though it makes for a strong lower back and legs.
I say this based on the fact that those parts are the sorest the next 2 days.

The bag.
I like throwing the bag more as it has a better effect on gripping power.
Though you can go heavier with the locks.

Their(the rock) most beneficial aspect from the viewpoint of Mantis is that when you throw the lock up you must do it quickly against a heavy force.

This translates well into a useful movement against the opponents punches.
In other words it helps your high block.

[Royal Dragon]

Seven Star,
Boy you just love busting my chops don't you?

Stone locks are any weight you need. Comercially Atomic has them up to 45 pounds, non comercially, you can make them as big and heavy as you can handle.

See:

http://www.atomicathletic.com/shop/tek9.asp?pg=products&grp=62


They have Iron ones too that come heavier than you could lift (I know your pretty big, and strong and all, but I'd like to see you do a propper upper cut with a 200 pound Iron Lock)

See Quote From Atomic's site:

"We have them in 20, 25, 30, 50, 100 and 200 pound sizes as well as in metric sizes of 10kg, 20kg, 25kg, 35kg, 50kg, and 100kg."

http://www.atomicathletic.com/shop/tek9.asp?pg=products&specific=joeqnrl8

Really man, just because you like bar bells does not mean there aren't other methods, that may be even more effective and more sport specific.

[GeneChing]

I've only dabbled in stone locks, which is to say that I've lifted a few at Shaolin when the monks told me to, and when they saw how weak I was, they put me back into horse stance. So I can't really attest to their training for adding power to punches (but that certainly seems plausible). What I will say is that they are great for grip strength. A dumbbell or barbell is more balanced, for lack of a better word, so it doesn't challange your grip in the same way as a stone lock or a stone ball. Lifting those doesn't do as much for your grip as trying to push a lock straight up over your head. I can't even do that, but it's not a problem with an equivalently weighted dumbbell. And I don't think anyone will deny the usefulness of a good grip in MA.

There's a lot to these traditional training tools, if you know how to use them. I'm glad to see Atomic offering them here in the states.

[Royal Dragon]

Yes, I agree. I think the avaliablity of traditional training tools allows us to work in a more sport specific manor, rather than making due with western wieght lifting methods like many of us have been doing.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Seven Star,
Boy you just love busting my chops don't you?

Stone locks are any weight you need. Comercially Atomic has them up to 45 pounds, non comercially, you can make them as big and heavy as you can handle.

which is where a problem arises...

They have Iron ones too that come heavier than you could lift (I know your pretty big, and strong and all, but I'd like to see you do a propper upper cut with a 200 pound Iron Lock)

See Quote From Atomic's site:

"We have them in 20, 25, 30, 50, 100 and 200 pound sizes as well as in metric sizes of 10kg, 20kg, 25kg, 35kg, 50kg, and 100kg."

punching w/ 200lb lock = joint damage.


Really man, just because you like bar bells does not mean there aren't other methods, that may be even more effective and more sport specific.

me liking barbells really isn't the issue at all.

[Royal Dragon]

So, do the motion in such a way as to not jar the joints. How hard is that?

[SevenStar]

which now means altering technique... counterproductive.

[SevenStar]

ttt so it's close - I want KK to remember to post his results.

[KombatKid]

I got the confirmation that my stone locks are on their way. Hopefully they will come tomorrow but early next week for sure!

[Royal Dragon]

which now means altering technique... counterproductive.

Reply]
No, not alter the technique. Just don't go so ballistically crazy that you hurt yourself, that's all.

[SevenStar]

now, we're doing the technique slowly... using weights directly with punching, no matter how you look at it just seems inefficient to me. Now, to use them in compound motions a la kettlebells is perfect. I think locks have their use, but striking with them is not it.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Seven,
Stone Locks can have some specific benefits, at least for Shuai Chiao or other throwing arts...however before I'm forced to bow before your superior knowledge of lifting(and have to cover up by being a brutal b@stard), go check out Scott Sonnens work on clubbells - clubs are superior to locks in my opion, well Scott's opinion, and my practice. But these type of swinging tools supply a host of benefits related to body integration.

Go to Rmax.tv, or vist the circular strength board - Vince Brown on the board is a local workout partner of mine, and a hell of a martial artist...he can answer specific questions on WHY something might be good. He has a solid CMA and science background too...

The Stone Balls have some other benefits, specifically related to open/closing and the spine...neat stuff.

[KombatKid]

clubs are superior to locks in my opion,

Permit me to ask, how so?

[Royal Dragon]

now, we're doing the technique slowly... using weights directly with punching, no matter how you look at it just seems inefficient to me. Now, to use them in compound motions a la kettlebells is perfect. I think locks have their use, but striking with them is not it.

So, you lift weights slowly. Don't tell me you blast them out and damage the joints, do you??. The locks load the movement specifically in the way they are being used. That's a more sport specific exercises, then simply benching. How is THAT inefficient?? Sounds MORE effcient to me.

Also, how is an uppercut NOT a compound motion?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
Seven,
Stone Locks can have some specific benefits, at least for Shuai Chiao or other throwing arts...however before I'm forced to bow before your superior knowledge of lifting(and have to cover up by being a brutal b@stard), go check out Scott Sonnens work on clubbells - clubs are superior to locks in my opion, well Scott's opinion, and my practice. But these type of swinging tools supply a host of benefits related to body integration.

Go to Rmax.tv, or vist the circular strength board - Vince Brown on the board is a local workout partner of mine, and a hell of a martial artist...he can answer specific questions on WHY something might be good. He has a solid CMA and science background too...

The Stone Balls have some other benefits, specifically related to open/closing and the spine...neat stuff.

I completely agree with you on this. But, do you practice strikes with clubbells in your hands? I agree that the locks can be used in a similar manner to what you mentioned. RD is saying you should train striking while holding them...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

So, you lift weights slowly. Don't tell me you blast them out and damage the joints, do you??. The locks load the movement specifically in the way they are being used. That's a more sport specific exercises, then simply benching. How is THAT inefficient?? Sounds MORE effcient to me.

you don't lift slowly - not as slow as you will have to with that punch. there are people who lift extremely slow, do a search on weight training and superslow. The problem there is the same as here - one of efficiency and functionality. You should be training for explosiveness. Doing a strike at extremely slow speeds is NOT helping to build that explosiveness.


Also, how is an uppercut NOT a compound motion?

I'll give you that one - an uppercut is a compound motion - just not one served well by lock training...

[MonkeySlap Too]

No, no, you don't use them like aerobic weights -- Stone Locks are like ketle bells, and a lesser way clubbbells - it's the full body swings and jerks that make it useful...not tryiong to 'punch' with it -- although some of the motions are similar to Shaolin punching - and I could see what RD *might* be thinking - but not punching in a boxing / muay thai / or even Xing Yi way...

The same things you have to do - tighten abdomanal 'inner tube', use the hips or waist or psoas to create certain motions, sink to create stops as you clean to order ...all useful for attribute building.

But not standing there 'punching' with them.

Ah, what some CMA guys call an uppercut is NOT what you call an uppercut. And while the underhand swings are good for finding your balance and developing stability, grip and relaxation (if yer really weak, you'll find circular strength patterns will relax you AND make you stronger). It will help you FIND power, particularly in the legs, but is not a power drill per se. It all adds up, but it ain't an isolation exercise. Swinging or cleaning of the lock is akin to dead lift squats versus isolated bar bell curls...one incorporates many functions, the other one. The neat thing with locks is that they work really well for going from composite exercise to isolation without switching tools, and offer a wide range of uses.

[SevenStar]

That makes perfect sense.

What is the difference between these two uppercuts though?

[MonkeySlap Too]

On uppercuts - and of course there will be other variations / opinions...and I'm going to try and limit my response to avoid being here all night arguing variations with the unwashed masses...

Boxing uppercut - uses the hips much like you would when pushing a car out of a ditch, only on a more vertical path. Like a cross, you'll get better results if your elbow is stuck to your body until you are launched. Pushing off the ground (think of how a tennis ball hits the ground, squishes, and comes up...you'll here me use this metaphor often for a lot of stuff.) As you rise the hips come into play, and there is a slight horizontal waist action as the fist rises first up your center, and follows your body turn upwards. This can be short rabbit hits or big Mike Tyson (don't tell boxing doesn't have full body power - watch his old fights - that uppercut!) hits.

Now, this is a rebounding pushing action. It keeps tight to the body. Exercises that could help it with stone locks are cleaning to order, and a variety of squats. These could be just as effectively practiced with other weights.

The 'Shaolin' uppercut (1 variation). First, you have only one arm that swings in unison. If you really get this idea, you are able to drive force through your back by swinging your 'one arm.' You are stepping on a gong bo - in fighting your stepping depends on the opponent, wether you are cageing them or taking an evasive action (I digress) You step requires that tennis ball feeling - but instead of compressing down and expanding up, your stepping should feel like how a football player does when they sink before kicking a field goal. This is combined with the waist holding compression like an inner tube and twisting. The 'One Arm' traverses a down to up circular path. The path does not have a beginning or end, it simple keeps following the path dictated by footwork. The move can be interpreted as a strike, or a throw depending on the knowledge of the player.

Now - the arm swings away from the body, instead of being in tight like in boxing. It works like a steel ball on the end of a rope, versus a piston.

Now this is just one interpretation, but you can see that the swinging nature of the Shaolin 'uppercut' can benefit from swinging the stone locks (for instance, most Shaolin guys have no idea how to coordinate the breathing/ab tension - which is critical, and you are FORCED to do when swinging stone locks.) Whereas the boxing uppercut can gain some benefit from the stone locks, but the stone locks don't fit the motions as exactly.

[SevenStar]

Now that, I understand clearly. Why the fock couldn't RD say that?

[Royal Dragon]

Thaks MS, you clearly express youself much better than I do.

I appreciate the help on this one. :D

I'd like to add one tiny thing

Any time you take a motion, and find a way to"Load" it (Resistance), it's going to get stronger. I believe it is more efficeint to load the actual movement you're peforming, than to use isolation type exercises commonly found in modern weight lifting. It allows you to work all the muscle groups used in the motion at one time, rather than going through, and working them each seperately, each in turn. You just have to make sure you add enough weight to the motion to actually do some good (IE. 10 pounds ain't gonna cut it most times)


As for the punching thing, Seven star got me thinking when he mentioned extremely slow movement, and then later, useing the word "Explosive". I didn't mean to give the impression that you punch with a lock extremely slowly (although, I see benifit from that as well). I meant you would need to do it in such a way so the joint is not overly strained, but the muscles used still get worked the way you want, similar to the way you'd lift "Explosively". I mean face it, if you bench explosively, your not launching the weight out so hard you're risking your joints, right? You need to find the correct balance between slow, and explosive.

Why couldn't you work a stone lock for an upper cut the same way?

I can think of ways to use them to build hitting power in the standard Karate horse and punch drill as well. The locks construction would allow the development of the "Cork screw" effect as wll as shoulder development in that motion.

Again, I think you can do it safetly if you use the same "Explosivness" found in weight lifting, rather than fully throwing the punch out like you were empty handed. You would have to pay closer attention to your structural alignment and your mechanics. In Shaolin Kung Fu you don't fully lock the joints in a punch anyway, so the elbow is not in as much risk. (You know, that whole straightening without straighteneing, bending without bending thing?). Why couldn't you make sure you do the motion carefully, with enough explosiveness that you really work the entire set of muscle groups used in that motion, with out over doing it to the point of injury?

I'm not advocateing reckles abandon. Just theorising that it can be done safetly, and with great benifit. I myself have done exercises like this in the past, with good results. However, I was never consistant enough with them to take it to it's full frutation. I could probably have done quite a bit more, with much greater results, and never gotten injured, or dammaged my elbows.

Anyone have thoughts on how to go about adding weights (in this case Stone locks) to the punching motion to created a compound exercise that would be explosive enough to be of great benifit (Besides the upper cut one we already know about), wile still being safe? Lets take our understanding of basic body development principals, and put it to action and see what we come up with.

[MonkeySlap Too]

RD, Your enthusiasm is strong, but please, please seek out the kettlebell crowd before messing with the stone locks. There are SO many ways to get hurt when 'exploring' this stuff. And the Russian sports guys really have the science down, at least from what I can tell...