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wingchunner
05-17-2001, 05:21 PM
(I am starting a new post because I don't like long threads)

Kung Fu Cowboy,

>>>Ok, I am all for respecting the teacher, and whatever MA I have studied , I have done so. But not because they are martial artists. I think everyone should respect everyone else if they deserve that respect.<<<

Of course; one should even respect those who don't deserve it. But, I believe if you really hold your teacher in high regard, then

>>>Well, you might have gotten a paying student! You are allowed a free test drive of a car before you buy it!<<

We're not talking about an item. We're talking about a relationship, and about something that grows and develops over time. I don't teach for the pay. Believe me... teaching martial arts doesn't pay, at least not in the area that I live in, and I don't want to sacrifice quality martial arts for quantity or "flowery and flashy" martial arts. I teach because I love Wing Chun. And any limited time that I have I want to go towards developing relationships and personal growth... Wing chun and otherwise.
Making beginners pay for a trial lesson will rid of those who aren't serious about Wing Chun.


>>>Well, maybe you shouldn't be looking for students then!<<<

I'm looking for good people who are serious about Wing Chun. Not a subordinate. The more people I work out with the better my sensitivity and knowledge bank of peoples energy and body type. I'm not going to waste my time with people who aren't serious. What's the point.


>>>No, it's a way for the teacher to cash in a little bit more! If I am somebody who walks in off the street, I don't know sh*t about the teachers personality, quality, or skill, and the only respect they deserve is the respect you give to any other fellow human being you just met! Any more profound respect must be earned, or its worthless.<<<

Obviously you don't hold your teacher in high regard. You look at him as someone who owes you something because you pay your $65 a month. Why have you been asking so many questions in this forum when you've found a good teacher? It's ok to ask questions in this forum. But, as I have read some of your posts I think... "Why doesn't he ask his teacher?" I feel that either you don't trust your teacher or you don't think he has enough knowledge to answer your questions. So, why are you with him? In my opinion, you disrespect your teacher by asking the questions that you have in this forum.


>>>Pay more! Come on! Of course I expect a reasonable fee, but are you saying as my teacher increases in skill, my tuition should go up also!

And take him to dinner? What! Should I buy him a car, and do his grocery shopping too! Maybe give him a bath? Hold his wang while he ****zes? Quit living in a bad kung fu movie!

Bottom line: Respect is earned on both sides, and expecting money or favors as a token of respect is pretty sh*tty! (think about it)<<<

Kung Fu Cowboy, do you really think your measly little $65/month or whatever you pay will even come close to the amount of time, money, and energy your instructor has put into the study of the martial arts, specifically, Wing Chun. Hah!

Do I think your tuition should go up? No.
Do I think you should show your teacher more gratitude for having you has a student? Definitely!
Do I think he expects gratitude? I don't know. But, if you poured your heart and soul into something that you were passionate about and you shared the knowledge you have with other people wouldn't it be nice to have some gratitude shown you?

I am so thankful that I have the teacher that I have. He has opened the door so much for me to so many possibilities that I never could have dreamed of even attaining them. He has taught me so much. And, I am proud, honored, and humbled to have him not only as my teacher, but as my friend! I am more than happy to pay for a dinner with him so I can share time with him, ask him questions about Wing Chun, his theories, his perspectives, etc. I know the path that he is on and I want to be there right behind him. I greatly respect him and love him.

Marty

Be true and loving.
http://wingchun.ereasons.net

kungfu cowboy
05-17-2001, 07:49 PM
Hi wingchunner! I feel that I did not make my point clear on the first post. And I hope I did not come across as hostile, I just feel rather strongly on this issue.

So, let me expand:

Yes you should respect your teacher; if they deserve it. I try to respect everyone, from the first meeting, and they either increase or decrease that respect by their actions and behavior as time goes by.

I do not feel that just because they teach a martial art that they automatically qualify for blind adoration.

Nor do I think I should feel obligated to shower him with gifts or money. Thats what tuition is for. (and its not like Im rich!)

As far as the trial lesson thing, it is my opinion that at least one freebie ought to be offered. That way, I get a firsthand look at what is offered, and the instructor may get a student. I really don't see the problem here!


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Making beginners pay for a trial lesson will rid of those who aren't serious about Wing Chun.
[/quote]

No, it just makes them pay for a trial lesson! How does my paying, then watching, then deciding whether or not I like wing chun get affected by this? I ought to be able to see if I even WANT to be serious about it!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I'm not going to waste my time with people who aren't serious. What's the point.
[/quote]

I couldn't agree more!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Obviously you don't hold your teacher in high regard. You look at him as someone who owes you something because you pay your $65 a month
[/quote]

I don't know him well enough to hold him in "high regard", but I do respect him. And yeah, he does owe me something for my money. Why else am I paying him? Now, if he were teaching me for free, that would be a whole other story.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Why have you been asking so many questions in this forum when you've found a good teacher? It's ok to ask questions in this forum [/quote]

I have a life and interests outside of my kung fu school, and I do whatever I want! And no one controls (or should care or want to) what I do in my private life! Sounds like you think I should have a cult mentality about the whole thing!


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I feel that either you don't trust your teacher or you don't think he has enough knowledge to answer your questions. So, why are you with him? In my opinion, you disrespect your teacher by asking the questions that you have in this forum.
[/quote]

First, I don't know him well enough to trust him. Two, I don't know how much knowledge he has or doesn't (and I can ask my questions anywhere I like!) And three, disrespect him by asking questions in this forum? ARE YOU SERIOUS? Honestly, I do NOT think I do this! I am a good person! I try to always respect those who deserve it.(besides you said it was ok to post here earlier! ;) ) Look, I am not a master of wing chun, and I don't just take things on faith. I like to ask questions from many sources, and take what is useful. I like to talk and learn and get the opinions of many. If you think this is wrong or disrespectful, I have to disagree.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Kung Fu Cowboy, do you really think your measly little $65/month or whatever you pay will even come close to the amount of time, money, and energy your instructor has put into the study of the martial arts, specifically, Wing Chun
[/quote]

I am in school, so its not measly to me, and of course it has nothing to do with the amount of time, money or effort my teacher put into wing chun. But this is MY study of wing chun we're talking about anyway!


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Do I think you should show your teacher more gratitude for having you has a student? Definitely!
[/quote]

Look, you don't know me, or my opinions, so this isn't a fair statement.

I hope that gratitude is not expected, but I would hope that they would be grateful. There's a difference. And there is nothing wrong in the end with buying your teacher a gift if it is motivated from your heart, and not something that is automatically expected.

"Ninja!...NINJA!"-Christopher George, from "Enter the Ninja"

wingchunner
05-17-2001, 10:38 PM
Kung Fu Cowboy,

I feel very strongly on the issue as well. Though I don't charge for an introductory lesson at this time, it makes perfect sense. There are quite a few knuckleheads out there... I've seen them. I don't think asking $10 bucks for an introductory lesson would be improper.

===Yes you should respect your teacher; if they deserve it===

If one thinks they don't deserve it, why would they be a student... unless they were forced to be a student.

===I do not feel that just because they teach a martial art that they automatically qualify for blind adoration.===

I never said blind adoration. But, if they are one's teacher (by choice), I think some sort of show of appreciation is great. I think that's part of being a good student.

===Nor do I think I should feel obligated to shower him with gifts or money. Thats what tuition is for. (and its not like Im rich!)===

Of course you shouldn't feel obligated, that wouldn't be a show of appreciation. It wouldn't be from the heart. What I am suggesting is that if a student wants to be a better student and learn all they can from their teacher, the student should do what ever they can to help the teacher. Expect something in return automatically? No, but it is showing the teacher your willingness to do whatever it takes to learn and that your heart is good. Perhaps I'm too old fashioned.


===As far as the trial lesson thing, it is my opinion that at least one freebie ought to be offered. That way, I get a firsthand look at what is offered, and the instructor may get a student. I really don't see the problem here!==

When you go into a restaurant, do you ask for free food to decide if you're going to eat there, and continue to be a patron?


===No, it just makes them pay for a trial lesson! How does my paying, then watching, then deciding whether or not I like wing chun get affected by this? I ought to be able to see if I even WANT to be serious about it!===

It keeps the people out who come in for a 'free lesson', learn what they can and leave. It keeps those knucklehead out who just want to come in and cause trouble or disruption. Usually, people do some research before coming into a class and know what they want.


===I don't know him well enough to hold him in "high regard", but I do respect him. And yeah, he does owe me something for my money. Why else am I paying him? Now, if he were teaching me for free, that would be a whole other story.===

Why would it be different? In my opinion, when a student pays their dues, they are paying for the opportunity to attend class. If the teacher initially begins to work with them, that is a show that the teacher is open to the student and willing to share part of their life and experience with them.

===I have a life and interests outside of my kung fu school, and I do whatever I want! And no one controls (or should care or want to) what I do in my private life! Sounds like you think I should have a cult mentality about the whole thing!===

No, I have a speciallized mentallity about the whole thing. I want to be the best I can at Wing Chun, and I know my instructor can take to a high level. I am committed to him. He's human and will make mistakes just like I do. But, I will support him all that I can. Because the more I can support him, the more he can learn and grow, and, in turn, because of our relationship, he will help me learn and grow as well. It's not a cult... it's a committed friendship.:)

===First, I don't know him well enough to trust him. Two, I don't know how much knowledge he has or doesn't (and I can ask my questions anywhere I like!)===

Ok, sounds reasonable. Yes, you can ask questions anywhere you like. But, in my opinion, wouldn't it make sense that if one's trying to follow the theories and methods of Wing Chun from the linage studied, one would ask their teacher instead of asking a lot of people one doesn't know at all?

=== And three, disrespect him by asking questions in this forum? ARE YOU SERIOUS? Honestly, I do NOT think I do this! I am a good person! I try to always respect those who deserve it.(besides you said it was ok to post here earlier! )===

If you are questioning your teacher's teaching, i.e.- to see what other people say, then who are you going to believe when things differ? What would you do then? ;)


=== Look, I am not a master of wing chun, and I don't just take things on faith. I like to ask questions from many sources, and take what is useful. I like to talk and learn and get the opinions of many. If you think this is wrong or disrespectful, I have to disagree.===

It is disrespectful if one's primary source is not the teacher when you have an initial question about Wing Chun. Math, ok that's different, to a degree. But, Wing Chun... seriously, the better relationship you have with the teacher, the better you will be. I gaurentee it.


===I am in school, so its not measly to me,===

Good! Then, I'm sure you value your time in class more than most. Also, calculate how much you spend on a college course per hour or how much a HS teacher gets paid per hour. Translate that to your Wing Chun class. I would guess that
you would find that you're getting quite a deal for the amount that you're paying the teacher.

===and of course it has nothing to do with the amount of time, money or effort my teacher put into wing chun. But this is MY study of wing chun we're talking about anyway!===

So, someone with a B.A., Masters, or Ph.D, can all teach something with the same level of knowledge and experience?

===Look, you don't know me, or my opinions, so this isn't a fair statement.===

Very true. But, I am also posting this so other people can learn how to be good students... in Wing Chun and otherwise. Developing relationships with teachers is good. I am one. At a high school and in Wing Chun. I am not talking about brown-nosing, that's not cultivating a relationship. I still have a good relationship with some of the teachers I have had in the past, elementary, high school, and college. It's great when you bump into each other and he/she comes up and gives you a hug. You know you've a good friend for life.

===I hope that gratitude is not expected, but I would hope that they would be grateful. There's a difference. And there is nothing wrong in the end with buying your teacher a gift if it is motivated from your heart, and not something that is automatically expected.===

Of course not, gifts are minor. It's the attitude of the heart that counts.

:cool: Wing chun is so much a part of my life I don't know what my life would be like with out it. It's so intertwined with mine, and influences it so much. I know it sounds kind of cultic, but I'm on a path and I'm excited about where I'm going. Thanks to my teacher. :cool:

Marty

Be true and loving.
http://wingchun.ereasons.net

kungfu cowboy
05-17-2001, 11:08 PM
Thanks for taking the time to tell me your viewpoint. I do appreciate it. Basically I agree with your sentiments. A couple things you said I misconstrued; sorry. I just don't want to give the wrong idea about myself. I DO respect people in general (good people, anyway), and of course as I progress in my relationships and get to know someone better, this will deepen. I'm not cynical. Just cautious. :p

"Ninja!...NINJA!"-Christopher George, from "Enter the Ninja"