Martial Arts = Painful Conversations

[Merryprankster]

ARRRRRRRGH!!!

This weekend, I was in Charleston, SC. The weather was nice, the women were hot.

We went out with some good friends of ours who invited some rather less good friends of theirs out with us. This culminated in a very large meal at an acceptable steakhouse.

Unfortunately, while I was plowing into a 22oz prime rib, I hear:

"Oh, James is like you, he's into fighting and the martial arts and all that stuff," from one of our friends.

Not so bad. My curiosity was piqued. However, the conversation began and I realized rather quickly that my major organs were going to leap out of my abdomen, through my neck, and choke out my own brain in an effort to avoid this encounter.

A sampling of the conversation:

In this man's tongue, Jiujitsu became "The Jiujits."

Yes, his moves are deadly.

All Judo moves are lethal.

Hitting somebody on the bridge of the nose will drive their nose bone into their brain and kill them.

He does a Shaolin art....FROM Korea....that has a Japanese name.... He didn't realize it was Japanese, but it sure as hell wasn't Korean. Remarking on that it didn't sound like a Korean name lead to a 10 minute exposition about...something...that hurt my brain so I smiled and nodded...

Please understand that I dealt with this for over an hour. Further, I was sending every nonverbal signal I could to indicate that I really didn't want to talk about this any more.

I received a general grilling on "the jiujits:"

Did I know any of the Gracies? (I've met several but don't KNOW them. "I've had no real dealings with them" leads to "Oh good, good. They're bad people." My response that several of them have been nothing but nice to me and others I know was drowned out by some other tangent... )

Don't you have to learn it from a Gracie? (5 minutes spent trying to make him understand that BJJ is bigger than the Gracie family, many have never met a Gracie or learned from one, etc)

What's your lineage? (I have no idea. We get back to my instructor's instructor and...)

How can you be certain what you are learning is legit if you don't know your lineage? (5 minutes spent explaining we have these things called competitions. We don't care who you are or who taught you. You win, you're golden. You produce champions, you're a great coach teaching good stuff. Total incomprehension.)

My favorite, and the one that effectively ended the conversation was:

"If you don't mind my asking (why would I?), how does your style address throwing and takedowns?"

"Huh?"

"You know, like, if somebody tries to throw you or take you down, what do you do about it?"

"I'm not really sure I understand your question exactly, I mean..."

"Well, in my style, you know, we try to root, sink the stance and resist the throw. Do you try to do something like that or do you try to, you know, use the other guy's momentum and reverse him?"

I had a fleeting moment where I briefly considered formulating a detailed response to this, but ultimately decided he wasn't going to get it, so, I led with "That depends...there are a bunch of throws where you're just not reversing them and..."

*with look of incredulity* "Well, YEAH, but you don't want to be in that situation in the first place, do you?"

"Well, you don't want to get knocked out either, but it happens to people all the time."

That gave him pause for a second, somebody remarked on "Stone Fist Style" or something, where-upon he began vigorously talking about....something.... and I was able to get back to eating my (now cold) steak...and thank heavens the check came.

[red5angel]

LOL! Ouch. I wouldn't have spent that much time talking about it with a guy like that, of course I'm an a$$.
Last year I was working out at the renfair and had the misfortune of running into a similar conversation. when the guy started telling me I was going about it all wrong - the same guy who couldnt' remember the name of his instrcutor and admitted openly he only studied for a "little while", I just told him I didn't want to talk about it with him anymore because I was getting irritated. He stopped.

Here's the suggested stance I think we as martial artists should take. From now on, if someone insists on inflicting this sort of stupidity on you, ask them if they want to spar, or touch hands a little. Throw/knock them around a little, let them know they have to go back and learn some more and call it quits.

[Meat Shake]

Ive talked to more idiots about martial arts than I can remember. There are tons of one punch knockin out, submit you in a second, shaolin stone handing wannabes around san antonio and austin... Drives me ape ****.
Then theres the conversations with people that know even less... "Well, what if someone comes flying at you with some crazy kick or something?"
"Then Ill probably f*ck them up because if they are comming at me with some "crazy flying kick" they dont really know anything about real fights."
*dumb blank look*

[dodger87]

Although I've never copped it as bad as you guys, I've had arguements with people who think Jackie Chan and Jet Li could beat boxers.

[Merryprankster]

Throw/knock them around a little, let them know they have to go back and learn some more and call it quits.

I would gladly have taken it to the parking lot for a little friendly (and I do mean that) show and tell.

Except I'm busy rehabbing my shoulder. I can't imagine that would have been very good.

[ShaolinTiger00]

oh god.. I've been there. ugh..

Honestly, the best conversations I have about martial arts are with my wife. As an outsider and a realist, she always provides a sensible discussion and a simple logical answers.

ex. we were discusing the footage of the RJ jr. fight. and I was saying "but he had his guard up to protect from the hook, - how ironic.."

the wife replies, but Tarver wasn't square in front of him, he slipped inside and then threw the hook as he moved back out. to tarver it was a hook, but to Roy's face it landed square.

I just looked at her in beautiful reverence..

[rogue]

Too funny MP. That's why I don't wear t-shirts with anything martial arts related on them, wear any part of my gi outside of the dojo or even tell people about my hobby. The one that got me was a friend of my wife saying that since her 9 year old son is a black belt in TKD that he can beat me up. She was serious.

[SanSoo Student]

You should've finished your prime rib first before you started to talk.

Don't Bother Me, I'm eating...:D

[red5angel]

I'm with Rogue, I try not to say anything but often what happens is someone around me mentions they do martial arts and someone who knows I do it, wife, freind, whatever, then sort of pulls me in by mentioning my own interests.

[Midnight]

Originally posted by rogue
The one that got me was a friend of my wife saying that since her 9 year old son is a black belt in TKD that he can beat me up. She was serious.

This is why I hate the belt system so much. Theres a whole lot of opinion/ego placed behind the color of a belt.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00


I just looked at her in beautiful reverence..

me too!

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by SanSoo Student
You should've finished your prime rib first before you started to talk.

Don't Bother Me, I'm eating...:D

Agreed. No conversation, no matter how irritating, is worth interrupting the vital flow of beef. :D

[SevenStar]

I hate these conversations. And, IME, the workst people to have them with are other MA, for the very reasons in MP's post - you get the lineage questions, talk of masters and secret techniques, etc. I have more luck just by nodding in agreeance with them, pretending to pay attention.

I hate the "*insert actor here* could beat a boxer" discussions also.

[Chang Style Novice]

I hate the "*insert actor here* could beat a boxer" discussions also.

Owen Wilson would totally ownzor either Klitschko. Or more likely, both at once.

(runs away)

[Cachete]

Were you still hungry enough to eat your steak after listening to all that CRAP? xD

[red5angel]

the workst people to have them with are other MA,

In my experience it's been the people who are more like ex or wannabe martial artists that turn out to be the worst to talk too. I run into all sorts of wannabe's out at fair. I ran into a guy 2 years ago who claimed he was a muy thai guy, fighting in tough man competitions. I thought that was cool and didn't think anything more of it until I invited him out the next weekend to do some sparring. He kept saying he didn't want to hurt any of us.

[Banjos_dad]

I held a green belt in Okinawan Shorin-ryu karate. At the end of about three years of study, I took a break from MA & later took up Northern Shaolin.

Somebody said something to somebody at work & now I "have a black belt" or even "like a thrid degree black belt arent you?"

I'm like, no, I have no rank now, I stopped practicing...When I did sport a belt, it was a green one. [Explains rank hierarchy...]

People believe what they want anyway, even when you refute it in person.



Most recently a customer sat down to talk to me about martial arts. I usually claim ignorance & won't participate in a conversation about it with non-MA-ers. But he said he wanted to start kung fu training. He wanted to know about the school, how much it cost, what we wore :rolleyes: , was the sifu "one of those guys whose just in it to make money...you know...??":mad:
I spent all this time trying to fill in the blanks for this guy: class times, tuition, contacts etc. I even sketched a little map cause the guy completely gives the impression that he wants to start training & wants advice on a school. I told him our school plus some other ones, to compare or see what he wanted to go with as far as training methods or whatever.
Spent all this time at work with this guy, who I don't really even care for too much. Because if you turn someone on to MA, and they really take to it, that's a good thing for everyone, right?
Only at the end of all that, for him to say "Hmmm. Because I just signed up at (somewhere else) (http://www.shaolinNM.com)
I was so tired of talking at that moment
Thanks for wasting my time dude. Next time you ask me for advice you'll get a slap to the back of the head.
I'm not a big stranger-talker in the first place...'cept to you guys anyway. You're not completely strange...

[MasterKiller]

A Shaolin-Do school, huh?

[Banjos_dad]

Yep...it's kind of funny. I knew he was talking about the 'shao lin' center where they weare gi's & have a bokken rack (I think...). I went to see if they had a presence online & almost fell out of my chair, dude :D

I guess he got his huh?

[CD Lee]

Rule of thumb - If somebody is not hurt and bleeding, don't stop eating a good steak!

I hate those conversations, however, I have the great priviledge of taking an unfarmiliar art. So when the situations come up and they do of course, I just say, " I study Xingyiquan." I have not met anyone in person that knew what Xingyi is. If pressed, I defer to say that it is health related like Tai Chi, and involves a lot of standing. I say it probably could not be used in a fight....and I'm off the hook. If they press, I just say that in a real fight I will just grab windpipes and balls and start tearing and throwing things and biting anything near me, like a deranged maniac. You'd be surprised the responses you get with a statement like that from a martial artist.

[BlueTravesty]

QUOTE]I hate the "*insert actor here* could beat a boxer" discussions also.[/QUOTE]

I hear you there. I mean, I can totally respect Jackie, Jet or Donnie's atheltic and acting talents, but fighting against someone who eats, sleeps and breathes full-contact is WAY different from choreographed "fighting" (though it must be noted that even the choreography, done HK style is pretty brutal stuff, just in a different way.)


Non-martial artists who fancy themselves to be skeptics can be pretty annoying in MA conversations, too.


"Wait, so you're saying you practice 'Kung-Fu?'" *furrowed brow and skeptical expression*

"I guess so. That's what Chinese martial arts usually tend to be called in this country anyway."

"Riiight..."
*sighs and shakes head.*

I also talked to a girl at work once, who said she took kung-fu, and wishes she still could. "Really? Where did you take it, and why did you stop?" said I. "In New York, I stopped because my family and I moved here." she said. "I take a chinese martial arts class just down the street. WHat did you practice?" I asked of her. "Just Kung-fu. You mean you take Karate, right?" She said. "Not really. Why?" I asked interestedly. "That's mostly all there is here, what with all the white people. You're probably not studying real Kung-Fu." she said rather condescendingly. She hit me with a one-two punch of rather absurd statements with that. " How So?" "There aren't many Chinese people in Tampa."

Poor girl. It was actually a more funny conversation than it was annoying. I had to get back to work though, so I didn't dare to tell her that none of the Sifu's at my class are Chinese.

[Banjos_dad]

Sifu mentioned once in class, if you strike someone in this little cavity (between the tips of the collarbone near throat base) they'll be unable to speak for a while...FYI.

Also, a phoenix eye to the solar plex can have a quieting effective except for the gasping.

;)


It's best when martial arts are your secret, don't you think? It feels good when others recognize our achievements, but I feel better having kung fu skills hidden but ready.

I rarely train outside in the daytime except during class or meeting a group of others in the park.

I will train outside at night if I can find a good spot where I don't stand out a lot. I like smooth basketball courts, tennis courts or schoolyards best for forms practice. You can never tell what people are thinking sometimes when they watch.
I was training forms at a schoolyard in the middle of the night a couple years ago & looked up to find a lowrider full of G's parked like 50 yards off, just watching. Turned out they liked kung fu & were entertained, but at first I was kind of scared & hoping they didn't want to 'spar' me. Whew!!

[Merryprankster]

LOL @ 7*,

That's precisely what I was doing...smile and nod....

[Xebsball]

stupidity and hard head-ness is very common in martial arts

[SevenStar]

MP, I'd personally like to thank you FOR JINXING ME! Tonight, one of my old CMA training partners came by the club. Admittedly, she's more open minded than most I deal with, but I still nodded and smiled to comments about how, even though thai boxing, judo and bjj were good, kung fu is the best out there, how effective standing locks were for self defense, how much it increased her power, etc. She did, however, admit that if she were facing off against an mma exponent, she would probably get massacred, because that's not what she trains for.

In response to a comment about how I should focus my training instead of training three different styles, I said that she should focus her training on something, as opposed to trying to master weapons, chin na , train iron palm, spar and grapple. It got silent after that...

[YinYangDagger]

I can't believe no one brought up this one:

Moron: All that "karate stuff" won't work if I pull out a gun.

Hmmmm. I actually had a guy say that to me in the service. When we were on board ship, we practice below decks, where there was always somebody walking around. Anyway, back to the story....

Me: Well, where's your gun?

While it was registering on his face, I spun him around by the shoulders on put on hadake-jime. Back then, I was powerlifting and doing Isshinryu (and some Judo) and kinda tightened it up a little too much and ****ed near broke the guys windpipe.

Luckily, I'm not that violent anymore. I still got in trouble though :(

[cerebus]

Heh, heh. I love the fact that no one seems to know what the heck Hsing-I & Bagua are! It saves me from having to listen to those idiotic ramblings.:D With me it's more like this:

Someone hears that I do "Martial Arts".

Guy: So what do you do? Taekwondo or Kuh-rotty?

Me: No. Hsing-I & Bagua.

Guy: Huh? What's that?

Me: Like Tai Chi. (It's not, but close enough for them).

Guy: *Scratches head. Doesn't really know what Tai Chi is but has heard it's like Yoga. Doesn't really know what yoga is either* Oh, yeah. Okay.

End of conversation.:D

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
"Well, in my style, you know, we try to root, sink the stance and resist the throw. Do you try to do something like that or do you try to, you know, use the other guy's momentum and reverse him?"


As far as this kind of thing goes, I have a special place in my heart for this particular kind of question. To use the psychological jargon, it puts ouy in a double bind. Layspeak, your ****ed if you do and ****ed if you don't. The only possible non-violent response requires:

a. Irony

and

b. SOMEONE in hearing range who will GET your irony.

I mean. . . yeah....you sort of do "try to root, sink the stance and resist the throw" OR "use the other guy's momentum and reverse him"

But it's really a non-answer. It's like saying in boxing I try to hit the guy in the face and if he punches as me I try not to get hit. . . in our style I mean.

So for my personal contribution to the dumb questions with smart asnwers thread:

"Hey! I heard you do kung fu!!! So . . . are you like, a black belt? "

Me: "Uhh . . . yes. I AM like a black belt. "

(note: I have no formal rank in any style. But I have trained for many years so technically I AM "like" a black belt. :D )

[cerebus]

Heh, heh. Back when I was doing Karate (and, yes, I WAS a blackbelt :D ), a guy actually said to me in one of these conversations: "Don't you, like, have to kill someone with your bare hands to get your blackbelt, or something?" I wasn't sure if he was joking or being serious. All I could say was "Uuum...yeah." :p

[Ikken Hisatsu]

Originally posted by Banjos_dad
I will train outside at night if I can find a good spot where I don't stand out a lot. I like smooth basketball courts, tennis courts or schoolyards best for forms practice. You can never tell what people are thinking sometimes when they watch.
I was training forms at a schoolyard in the middle of the night a couple years ago & looked up to find a lowrider full of G's parked like 50 yards off, just watching. Turned out they liked kung fu & were entertained, but at first I was kind of scared & hoping they didn't want to 'spar' me. Whew!!

no offense dude, but what a poser. wasnt there a discussion about the kind of people who go around training in public, especially while wearing their karate/kung fu/whatever get up, and how they reflect so badly on everyone else? havent you got a house?

anyway on topic, one of my mates called Shay is real big. works out every day, is built like a brick, about 6'4 tall. weighs about 110 kg, benches 90kg. hands like dinner plates. I'm about 65kg, 5'10 or so. kinda thin, bit of muscle though (Bruce Lee type muscle, not bodybuilder muscle) and people always ask-
"you do KUNG FU right?"
"yeah. and muay thai"
*confused look- no one knows wtf muay thai is*
"Could you beat up shay?"
"well he's about twice as big as me. probably not"
"but you do kung fu?!?!"
"Me fighting shay is like Shay fighting a gorilla or a bear. look at those clubs he calls hands."
then it generally turns to the guys sister/niece/grandma who does judo/ninjitsu/krotty and could kill both of us with their hands tied and are registered as deadly weapons. I love the general populace.

[Banjos_dad]

Ikken Hisatssu--
Who was wearing a uniform? In the future I'll type slower so you can catch everything.
And no I live in an apartment...Like what you'll live in when your mommy & daddy kick you out of your house mr born in 1986...You would **** your pants if you met me on the street, slick...
Kung fu taught me to cut slack for ignorant brats...as opposed to karate -- "kick ass first & ask questions later..." you get the benefit of the doubt there sonny.
Sounds like your about 50 lbs lighter & five inches on the loser side of this fight as well.
So "no offense"dude, but go grow some hair on yer nuts & let the adults have their talk time, mmmkay? Maybe you can find a Brittney 'n' Justin forum, something you could contribute to.
What the f*ck are you even trying to say besides flaming me. How hot you think your big friend is :o

[Kristoffer]

Originally posted by Ikken Hisatsu


no offense dude, but what a poser. wasnt there a discussion about the kind of people who go around training in public, especially while wearing their karate/kung fu/whatever get up, and how they reflect so badly on everyone else? havent you got a house?


He aint a poser unless he actually wants a crowd. And if you actually read what he posted you'd notice that's what he said. What's wrong with training outside? You never jog, swim or climb? Are all joggers 'posers', I mean don't they have a house? :rolleyes:

I've met countless ignorants who always asks q's like "but what if I push you really hard?" and "martial arts? aren't you afraid you'll hurt somebody?" etc
People never remember what I train so I don't explain it to anyone anymore. If someone asks "hey, you train Judo right?" I always sais "yeah"

[Banjos_dad]

Thanks for that Kristoffer. Bear in mind this guy's only eighteen. :rolleyes:
I got home from work & saw that post...kind of got under my skin.
His concussion wouldn't give a f*ck if I was wearing a uniform or not anyway.
Arrgh. Little ******* got on my last nerve.

The Best Part Of Ikken Hisatsu Dribbled Off His Momma's Chin.

There. Now keep your smooth hairless little candy-hole shut & I won't hurt you any mo.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ikken Hisatsu


no offense dude, but what a poser. wasnt there a discussion about the kind of people who go around training in public, especially while wearing their karate/kung fu/whatever get up, and how they reflect so badly on everyone else? havent you got a house?


I don't see anything at all wrong with training in public. I used to/still do it all the time. When I was in college, my coach and I would train in the field house of the school. If it was a nice day, we'd go outside. We were already on campus - why the he11 should we have gone somewhere else? are american football players, soccer players, etc. showing off? I mean they CAN drill and walk through plays indoors...

When I was in CMA, I would practice my weapons forms outside. It kinda sucks to swing a staff or sword in the house, ya know?


Many of the capoeira schools here train outside on a regular basis. They don't have a school, so the only place they can be and have room is outdoors, like in a park, on a tennis court, etc.

My current MT coach and I meet a couple days a week, outside of class - we meet at the gym my apt complex has, which is public. Last week, they left the deadbolt on the door - residents only have the key to the bottom lock, not the deadbolt - so we trained on the tennis court.

Are the chinese guys doing taiji in the park posers?

[SevenStar]

Oh yeah, on the "the jiu jits" thing - I wonder if that's regional - ask the guys if they are originally from the west coast or somewhere - the two guys I know of who say it are both from cali.

[kungfu cowboy]

Useful link (http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/anger.html) ;)

[Banjos_dad]

7* knows.

Thanks, KFC. I'm something of a cowboy myself sometimes. Sux to be angry. I feel a little better now. But not because of that link :p .
This is a kungfu forum. If people are going to call someone a poser with no grounds, they should expect an angry response.
Fighting anger is a struggle for me, I'm trying to be a good zen buddhist...It's tough but nothing so good is obtained with no struggle.
Still, some of the most eminent zen heroes were known to transmit wisdom with a STICK...
:cool:

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Banjos_dad
Yep...it's kind of funny. I knew he was talking about the 'shao lin' center where they weare gi's & have a bokken rack (I think...). I went to see if they had a presence online & almost fell out of my chair, dude :D
Are the Chinese characters backwards on their gis?

http://www.shaolinnm.com/images/srmstrfest1.jpg

The first character from the left is "Lin" or "forest". The second is "Xiao" or "Small." Shouldn't it be the other way around?

[kungfu cowboy]

Banjo's_dad, it's just human nature!:p

[Banjos_dad]

I'm mostly human. It shines through. I read my posts later & am like...ooooo. Wish I could take tht back! I know they can be deleted but I think that's taking the easy way out.

Plus all the fun people will have later seeing us virtual blast each other.

MK, you're right about the characters on the gi. I bet you also noticed that the banner at the front of the class is spelled out properly, from the top down!

When I was doing karate I would have loved a kung fu gi like that ;)

Sho Rin Ryu almost equals Xiao Lin Do. That's something else I noticed. Rin is Japanese for Lin, as they avoid L sounds in their language. I think ryu and do are meant in the same way.

You now have the coolest avatar on KFO. btw.

Later, B-d

[Toby]

Originally posted by Ikken Hisatsu
anyway on topic, one of my mates called Shay is real big. works out every day, is built like a brick, about 6'4 tall. weighs about 110 kg, benches 90kg. hands like dinner plates.No offence, but maybe he needs to change his training regime. I'm currently 90kg and can bench 125kg and I consider myself to have a very poor power to weight ratio. He should be able to bench 140kg or more to be an impressive figure for his bodyweight. Totally off-topic, but you were trying to put the figure out there as an example of how strong he is and turns out he's not really at all.

[Vash]

Indeed. I'm 5'8" and when I was training, weighed in at 145lbs (appx 66kg). I was benching 245lbs (appx 111-ish KG).

[Yum Cha]

Perhaps BD shared a little knowledge with IH, that being that you don't barge into a confrontation without understanding the nature of your opposition.

Balance is essential to all martial arts, at all levels. The first to show his hand is at a disadvantage, unless of course its an all-out surprise attack....

Oh by the way, my school has been training in the park on Saturdays for over 14 years....granted, a remot-ish corner.

In the morning during the week I train at the beach, in a park 20 metres from the sand. There are personal trainers with clients and kick-boxers and surf lifesavers (ironmen) all training in the same area. Nobody pays any attention to an old bloke doing forms on the side. The girls in lycra get SO much more attention....

Kwoons and large gardens are a luxury that many of us don't enjoy. And besides, morning time at the beach is great.

[Shadowboxer]

Doesn't ryu mean "school" or "killing school" ?

I never have trouble explaing Wing Chun Kungfu to anybody... :confused:... ;)

[CFT]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Are the Chinese characters backwards on their gis?

http://www.shaolinnm.com/images/srmstrfest1.jpg

The first character from the left is "Lin" or "forest". The second is "Xiao" or "Small." Shouldn't it be the other way around? Nope. Traditionally, Chinese is read right to left if written horizontally.

Formal written documents, e.g. letters, are written top to bottom, right to left. Although alot of people now write in the "Western" format of left to right, top to bottom.

[Banjos_dad]

ryu means stream. Like a river. But the function it has means like "style" or way, sure.

[Musicalkatachmp]

"If you don't mind my asking (why would I?), how does your style address throwing and takedowns?"

Sorry I don't understand what was wrong with this question...it seems like a legitimate query to me...sure the other stuff he said was kind of toolish...but what's wrong with asking someone this...is it b/c you are a groundfighter and the whole idea is to get it to the ground?

[Ikken Hisatsu]

you know, for a bunch of zen masters i would of thought my poser comment would be like water off a ducks back. no need to get upset guys ;)

[Banjos_dad]

Accepted.

[Merryprankster]

Nah, it was a totally legitimate question. I was trying to figure out how to give him a real response when he started in on the "rooting" crap.

It wasn't the question, it was just clear he wasn't going to get the real answer to it, especially when he started talking out of his ass, hence the knocked out comment...

[rogue]

I think Banjos_dad is a poser for another reason, "Long live Banjo my dog. :p

There was a poser who had a dog and Banjo was his name-o.
B-A-N-J-O, B-A-N-J-O, B-A-N-J-O and Banjo was his name-o!:D

Sorry B_D just kidding, I checked you profile to see what kind of dad whould name his kid Banjo. I just couldn't resist.

Hey MP, has this thread turned into a painful conversation yet?:)

PS B_D, I didn't use the entire quote of "Long live my Girl, & Banjo my dog" because it looks bad to the women to mention your dog and Girl in the same sentence.;)

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by CFT
Nope. Traditionally, Chinese is read right to left if written horizontally.

Formal written documents, e.g. letters, are written top to bottom, right to left. Although alot of people now write in the "Western" format of left to right, top to bottom.

Just for the record, "traditionally" in this context means like at least more than 50 years old. Now adays pretty much everything horizontal is left to right. Even the verticly printed stuff is generally left to right. It's only in really old stuff you see the right to left. It throws me every onc in a while because certain things like the names of the city gates in Xi'an or . . . I dunno, every once in a while I bump into the old style. I kind of like that about the language though. You can write in pretty much any direction you **** well please. What ever looks best. The evolution of the writing materials has lead to a script which looks best vertically but since each character is a self contained little square, there's really no 'front' and 'back' end. Just top and bottom.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Vash
Indeed. I'm 5'8" and when I was training, weighed in at 145lbs (appx 66kg). I was benching 245lbs (appx 111-ish KG).

Dude, that's awsome. Maybe I need to go to the training sections more. How the hell do you get up there like that. I never seem to get much past benching my weight, which is weird because I tend to give people the impression that I'm really strong for my size but I guess it's really just funtional strength. I keep thinking if my actual pure muscular strength was up to par with my functional strength I'd seem incredibly strong but I truly suck at anything that requires isolation of muscle groups.

I kind of like benching though because it's not as isolated as the machines. It's off topic but I have a cheap gym nearby and I think I'm about ready to commit to being able to bench ove 100 kg. ( I wiegh about 75 kg. ) Simple program?

[Merryprankster]

245 should be totally attainable for you. The problem you are likely having is that you're trying the dang machines!!! Machines, generally suck because they overisolate--which is very good for rehabilitation or extremely specific work, but not so hot for overall athletic ability.

If you're not used to the lifting, try starting simple with a 2 sets of 10 repetitions program 2 times per week, just to lay the foundations and groove the movements, before you start worrying about details of program development.

I'd lift a total of four days per week:

day 1, squat and deadlift
day 2, Bench and bent over rows (or pull ups)
day 3, rest
day 4, squat and deadlift
day 5, bench and bent over rows (or pull ups)

This program is easy, you can slap an extra set on each exercise when you're ready to do it, and it will get you in and out of the gym in about 30-40 minutes if you're doing it right. My attention span is too short, so I really can't spend any longer than that on weights...

Get somebody to show you the exercises and have fun.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Nah, it was a totally legitimate question. I was trying to figure out how to give him a real response when he started in on the "rooting" crap.

There's a style of "rooting" demo popular among taiji instructors where they invite observes to push their chests or arms while they stand there unmoved. I've never seen it popularizard among so-called "external" arts, but I suppose the word gets around.

The thing is, this kind of skill isn't proof against takedowns - I suppose one might get this idea if they merely watched these demos and was prone to fantasy, or if someone they trusted explicitly told them so. But, no matter how good you're rooting this force, someone need merely attack you in some fashion to spoil it - say, by hitting you upside the head, or manipulating your joints. And this is, of course, exactly what a trained martial artist executing a takedown will do - he won't just stand there pushing you.

Then, our friend who is "rooting" has to rely on a dynamic defense (/offense) against grappling attempts just like everyone else.

This is my take, anyway. I think it is a shame that these legends start, because they obscure the legitimate usefulness of these training methods, and thus grant them disrepute.

...

The only thing worse, I think, than meeting an oddball is having a good friend who is good friends with an oddball. Knowing that you both do martial arts, they are sure to constantly try to set you up, and it's more difficult blowing off this middle-man who is legitimately your bud. A friend of a friend, apparently, is into empty force but is wary to try it too much because it shortens your life span. But I really have to meet him; we'll get along famously...

[Banjos_dad]

Fvck you Rogue. I didn't bother looking at yrs 'cause who cares, your post tells me all i need to know.
Go ahead & think I'm a "poser." If that will make me a proper adversary for you & Ikken Hisatsu :D you bet.
Banjo says, 'Be careful Dad...his e-mail smells like hand lotion."
:eek:

[quiet man]

My sifu (over 20 years of experience) has an acquaintance who works in the police and has attended some kind of MA 'course' (in absence of better word) - and guess what, he wants to spar a little with my sifu. And so, he assumes an on-guard position, hands in front of himself, and sifu simply grabs his forearms, pulls him (disrupting his balance, because this guy was so rigid he fell after his arms as if made of wood) and gives him a couple of light slaps on the face. This was the end of the 'sparring', because at that moment this guy's kid started crying, like 'don't beat my dad' :D ...

Once I had a discussion with this one guy who insisted that people who train MAs can only defeat other people who train MAs, preferrably the same style.
Now I know Michael Jordan couldn't touch me if we had a 1 on 1 game, because I have never trained basketball :rolleyes:

[omarthefish]

Merry,

What's your weight and how much do you bench? Otherwise I don't really care what you have to say on it. Vash claims at 140 he's doing 245. So I wanna know what he did to get there.

I do lift.

I suck.

I've never touched the machines.

I basically only bench and do squats to mix it up when I'm too tired to keep going with the bag or with the Baji. But the idea of lifting some serious weight is just starting to sound attractive. More out of vanity than anything else. I hit harder than anyone else in the gym. I can't figure out how benching is supposed to help exactly. Power comes from the legs and waist. I just think it's cool. Squats on the OTOH, are a different story. Even when I do my bag work, my legs will eventually get tired PLUS it seems like they work my whole back in a usefull way as well.

[Merryprankster]

What's your weight and how much do you bench? Otherwise I don't really care what you have to say on it. Vash claims at 140 he's doing 245. So I wanna know what he did to get there.

Then I won't bore you with the details:rolleyes:

Nice way to treat somebody trying to help you out. I thought you were trying the machines because you wrote the bit about isolation.

[Vash]

Originally posted by omarthefish
Merry,

What's your weight and how much do you bench? Otherwise I don't really care what you have to say on it. Vash claims at 140 he's doing 245. So I wanna know what he did to get there.

I do lift.

I suck.

I've never touched the machines.

I basically only bench and do squats to mix it up when I'm too tired to keep going with the bag or with the Baji. But the idea of lifting some serious weight is just starting to sound attractive. More out of vanity than anything else. I hit harder than anyone else in the gym. I can't figure out how benching is supposed to help exactly. Power comes from the legs and waist. I just think it's cool. Squats on the OTOH, are a different story. Even when I do my bag work, my legs will eventually get tired PLUS it seems like they work my whole back in a usefull way as well.

First, MPs a valuable source of information. Just be cool, omar.

Second, do you do any lifts aside from bench and squat? If not, then you are creating a potentially serious muscular imbalance in your shoulders. Anyway, here's the routine I credit with my greatest increase in strength.

Warmup
One BW set of every exercise, plus 15 minutes going over set (kata)
{First set of every exercise is warmup, so 3x8 = 1x8 warmup, 2x8 working set}

Workout

Chinup: 3xfailure
Bench: 3x8
Barbell Powerclean + Press: 3x8
{No warmup sets}Bent-over DB Row: 3x8
DB Cuban Rotations: 3x12
Lying Rear Deltoid Raise (DB): 1x12

Medicine Ball Hamstring Curl: 2x8
Internal Oblique Raise (balancing DB): 2x8

Cooldown
Different set (kata) than warmup

I was not doing squats, lunges, leg press, etc because I've got some muscular imbalance I have to correct before I can do those again. If you have no problems in that area, though, I would encourage squats (standard and front).

I did this workout twice a week, Mon and Thurs. I didn't note my corework here, as I never did the same workout twice. However, I trained abs/low back Mon Wed Fri, with a load (total sets) of Light Heavy Medium.

[rogue]

Banjos_dad, :D ! A proper adversary for me? Ha you aren't stupid enough to be a proper adversary for me! Wait, I think I screwed that up. :confused: Oh heck.:D


So I wanna know what he did to get there. By getting underneath the bar and lifting. Never understood the mystic of benching.

I've been mixing machines and free weights based on two things, does it work and does it not bother my back or shoulder, (bye bye lat pulldowns). My club has some nice free weight equipment and the machines are these really nice Paramount ART Rotary ones which are non-linear in movement. I think free weights generally are best but I'm not going to not use a machine if it's safer and gives good results for my goal which is general fitness.

[Vash]

Originally posted by rogue
By getting underneath the bar and lifting. Never understood the mystic of benching.

I've been mixing machines and free weights based on two things, does it work and does it not bother my back or shoulder, (bye bye lat pulldowns). My club has some nice free weight equipment and the machines are these really nice Paramount ART Rotary ones which are non-linear in movement. I think free weights generally are best but I'm not going to not use a machine if it's safer and gives good results for my goal which is general fitness.

rogue has taken the correct and forced it to take it in the booty.

I personally hate lat pulldowns. I'd sooner have my clients work on those pullup bars with the opposing weight, so they can get into the habit of chinning even if they lack the strength.

[Toby]

Originally posted by rogue
By getting underneath the bar and lifting. Never understood the mystic of benching.
There is a definite "mystic" in benching for me. It's pretty much the only exercise I do where it can cause death if you fail at a lift. I guess overhead lifts are the same, but I don't do those any more. Even so, in overhead lifts you're generally more mobile and if you know you're going to fail you have a chance to get out of the way. With bench, if it all comes crashing down, it all comes crashing down on you. Realistically, I know my limits very well after years of bench and I know if I'm going to fail a lift and can adjust accordingly (i.e. let it down slowly) so I'm not at much risk. Still embarrassing when you get stuck - lucky I train at home now. But it remains one of my favourite challenges.

P.S. My opinions are for those that don't use spotters. Real Men (TM) don't need spotters :D.

[omarthefish]

Chill MP.

Easy man. Not flaming you just getting to the point. Who want diet tips from a fat dude? Vash just came out and said he was doing **** near double his weight. If you come out here and post about something more explcitly gong fu related I can usually tell where your coming from and what kind of experience you got just based on the kind of response you give. . . even if it's a different style.

But I'm asking about lifting, which is something I really don't know about. So I need some sort of "resume". You know how these boards are. If you ask a question, sometimes everyone and their pet dog too will come out and give advice.

so BORE me. Please.

And nah. I hate machines. And they only have crappy old stuff here anyways. The gym is pretty "getto style". I mentioned isolation to try explain what I meant about funtional strength. I meant to drive home the huge difference between my 'strength' and my 'power'. Nobody has ever gotten the impression that I need strength training because playing around I come off as really strong. But then somebody wants to arm wrestle or compare bench press or something and I am a total *****. Even free weights use muscles in a pretty isolated fasion when compared to say . . . wrestling or punching.

Vash,

I don't think in any real risk of 'muscular imbalance' in my shoulders. I'm just not doing enough to worry about that. I've started benching recently to sort of beef up the weak areas. Although I'm curious now what you think would be the counterbalancing muscle groups. My lats aren't great but my waist and back are real strong. And I do so much traditional type MA training that it pretty much takes care of any postural type imbalances.

What's the danger for squats? All I could think of were safety issues, which I'm super carefull about. (knees or back , proper alignment etc.)

[Vash]

Originally posted by omarthefish
Vash,

I don't think in any real risk of 'muscular imbalance' in my shoulders. I'm just not doing enough to worry about that. I've started benching recently to sort of beef up the weak areas. Although I'm curious now what you think would be the counterbalancing muscle groups. My lats aren't great but my waist and back are real strong. And I do so much traditional type MA training that it pretty much takes care of any postural type imbalances.

What's the danger for squats? All I could think of were safety issues, which I'm super carefull about. (knees or back , proper alignment etc.)

In regards to the muscular imbalance . . . it's not so much the weight causing said imbalance, it's the workload. Because the anterior deltoid (front of the shoulder) is working harder and more often than the posterior deltoid (back of the shoulder) it will become bigger than the posterior delt. You'll notice the difference by a slight sloping forward of your shoulders and an inability to do a large # of pushups or a relatively heavy bench without pain around your rotator cuff. In all honesty, I'd recommend you laying off benching for a while, and work on something different. As an example, use DB Flyes for your chest and incorporate bent-over rows (BB or DB, your choice) Cuban Rotations, and one or two other exercises aimed at your posterior deltoids and/or lats.

The dangers of squatting . . . if you're being careful about form, where you're shouldering the bar, et all, then the only danger really is dropping it.

[CFT]

Originally posted by quiet man
Once I had a discussion with this one guy who insisted that people who train MAs can only defeat other people who train MAs, preferrably the same style. This is not as stupid as it first seems. There are many who say, particularly about Wing Chun, that because a martial artist mainly trains against someone of their own style, they expect attacks that follow the same combat philosophies. In which case, he with the better skill and physical advantage wins.

However, the above statement does not apply to those who seek combat experience outside of their system.

[omarthefish]

So it's what I thought with the squats.

That's why I like them. AND of course that they just seem like the most directly applicable to my MA training of anything you can do in the weight room.

So anterior delts. Military presses? I mean pressing a barbell straight up over your head. OR jsut adding some flies or something to balance it out. Honestly, I'm not doing nearly enough benching to start laying off. I've only barely just started doing them with any regularity.

And I am embarrased to say I don't know what these are:

DB Cuban Rotations: 3x12
Lying Rear Deltoid Raise (DB): 1x12

Medicine Ball Hamstring Curl: 2x8
Internal Oblique Raise (balancing DB): 2x8

[omarthefish]

CFT,

No need to necessarily go outside your system. If your stuff only work against other people doing the same thing then your stuff sucks. To take a simple example disproving the point:

Muay Thai

Wrestling

and many many others. ALL of the legitimate arts. I mentioned those 2 because they are particularly generic and unreliant on your opponent acting a certain way.

I get your point but that just goes to show how much utter crap is out there passing its self off as martial arts. I often walk by these places and look in the window and say to myself, "Wow....look, there's a school where they teach you how to look silly and get your ass kicked at the same time." I think about how these poor suckers would probably fight better if they never set foot in that school to begin with. Then they'd probably just flail madly kicking and punching like a nut and be more dangerous than the garbage they are being taught will defend them in a serious altercation.

[Musicalkatachmp]

Nah, it was a totally legitimate question. I was trying to figure out how to give him a real response when he started in on the "rooting" crap.

OIC yeah sounds like he was a real schmuck...at least you handled it like a gentleman...a lot of people at my school probably would have acted like complete tools and ruined the night for everyone.


I can't believe no one brought up this one:

Funny, I was just telling sun tzu on saturday how sick I am of hearing this F***ing Bull**** excuse my language but I am so very angry I might break my keyboard as I type this...

I've heard the "My gun is more powerful than your kung fu" talk on several occassions...here are a few examples...

1. The father of one of my students and I were talking about K-1....I said something like "yeah those guys are sick I don't know how they can do that stuff"...and he says "Its easier to buy a gun" Did you get that? We were talking about a freakin' sport and he says its easier to buy a gun...obviously he has seen Bowling for Columbine, but beyond that I'm not sure what else he knows...so I guess sports are useless b/c it is easier to buy a gun and ernesto hoost does k-1 to protect his family from bandits...oh and I didn't ask him why he has his kid doing kung fu b/c I didn't really want to talk to him after that...

2. The so called martial artist who realizes he's not that good so he's like I'll just shoot your @$$ b/c he's like well, I didn't have what it takes to learn how to fight, but, by george, I can still be tough!

3. The "punk" who has to be tough...this person will usually spout such nonsense as..."When I get mad nobody can beat me" I "refuse to lose" they never consider that maybe the other person will want to win the fight too...then when they have doubts they can always turn to guns...

I think there are a couple reasons they act this way...I guess they can justify sitting on their fat @$$ while we are in the gym sweating by saying that they will just use a gun (BTW most of the people who say "I would just shoot you and your kung fu would be useless," do not have a gun)...when they think this way, suddenly they no longer feel lazy, rather they feel smarter...we are doing all this work and all they have to do is pull a trigger (again, how many of them could pull a trigger even after they bought said gun)...also in the US or at least in maryland it seems like everybody has to be tough...I'm not just talking about being a man with b@lls I'm talking about being a thug, like you will fight somebody b/c he screwed up your order at Wendy's...and obviously not everybody IS tough...but everybody CAN buy a gun...

[Vash]

Originally posted by omarthefish
So it's what I thought with the squats.

That's why I like them. AND of course that they just seem like the most directly applicable to my MA training of anything you can do in the weight room.



Squats are about the BEST lift out there. Unfortunately, there are often rather dangerous for the inexperienced lifter. Still, if you can do them with proper form, then keep on keepin' on with them.



So anterior delts. Military presses? I mean pressing a barbell straight up over your head. OR jsut adding some flies or something to balance it out. Honestly, I'm not doing nearly enough benching to start laying off. I've only barely just started doing them with any regularity.

Your anterior delts are the muscles of the shoulder being worked during the bench. To get a really noticeable strength increase, you need to work the posterior delts. Increases balance and stability of the joint, thus allowing your anterior delts to work without having to hold back.

If you do the military presses standing, be careful not to arch your back. Slightly tighten your abs as you press up to avoid that.


And I am embarrased to say I don't know what these are:

DB Cuban Rotations: 3x12
THIS (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/exercise3/cubanrotations.htm) is a Cuban Rotation.


Lying Rear Deltoid Raise (DB): 1x12
THIS (http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidPosterior/DBLyingRearLateralRaise.html) is a Lying Rear Deltoid Raise.


Medicine Ball Hamstring Curl: 2x8
THIS (http://www.onlinefit.com/health/index.cfm/Exercise/381) Swiss Ball Hamstring Curl. Not sure why I wrote medicine ball. I meant Swiss Ball.


Internal Oblique Raise (balancing DB): 2x8


Lie on your side, one leg up, foot flat on the floor. Other leg extended out in front. Balance a DB on the foot/ankle that is extended. Raise the leg, hold for a 10 count, lower. Can also do it with strap-on ankle weights.

[Toby]

Omar, just FYI, I'd be inclined to listen to MP on this one. I don't know what he benches, but I'm pretty sure he knows what he's talking about. Also, you might like to ask lifting Q's in the training forum.

[omarthefish]

MP hasn't said anything since expressing his offence at my tone of "voice". There's nothing to listen to or to not listen to so far.

I'll check out the training forum from here on out. This is too may posts off topic anyways.

[Banjos_dad]

Thanks. I know I say stupid stuff sometimes. I would rather be your friend anyway. I'm sorry. Anyway that's all.

[Merryprankster]

Quite frankly, it didn't read well. But I'm not going to hold a grudge over something like that. I just hadn't gotten around to it.

As a side note, I'm 100% certain you weren't trying to be a ****, so it's cool, but it's hard to gauge stuff like this over the internet.

Vash hit all of it that really matters. There's not a lot more to say on the subject, really, except to point out that:

1. You may not experience the same level of success with this program - you might need something different.

2. Back strength, back strength, back strength. Many people who have difficulty benching have back strength deficencies. Muscles work in pairs to stabilize things and your lats are going to be used quite a bit.

3. You may have to work some explosive stuff in there - clean and jerks, cleans, etc. It will help you make the neuromuscular connection to drive hard and fast. It won't ALL carry over to bench, but it will matter. Chains on the barbell are also a good training method for this and a cheap way to vary the workout.

[rogue]

Thanks. I know I say stupid stuff sometimes. I would rather be your friend anyway. I'm sorry. Anyway that's all. What are you apologizing for B_D? No worries. :)

[nairb]

Reminds me of the ladies that take one of those 3 hour self defense courses at the community college where they learn to yell - NO - loudly and kick the padded up guy in the nuts.

After they get their certificate they actually think they can beat up a real street thug.

I'm suprised more of them don't show up in the crime mortality statistics.

lol.




Originally posted by rogue
Too funny MP. That's why I don't wear t-shirts with anything martial arts related on them, wear any part of my gi outside of the dojo or even tell people about my hobby. The one that got me was a friend of my wife saying that since her 9 year old son is a black belt in TKD that he can beat me up. She was serious.