(MA) Politics, Politics

[Vash]

No, this is not a governmental thread, but it is, in fact, in regards to martial arts, and the unfortunate existence of politics therein.

*****Please NOTE*****

These opinions are strictly my own. They are not reflective of my school, my instructor. If anyone knows me, or attends the same martial arts school as me, please take all thoughts up with me.

*****Please NOTE*****

I hate politics, both governmental and MA related. Unfortunately, I feel that more and more, they are becoming a part of my school. It is with that in mind that I am beginning to question how long I shall stay there after I have recovered from my injuries, and I have regained everything I lost (skill wise).

Now, I was injured when testing for my Shodan, my first degree black belt. Did I get the actual rank from the testing board? Nope. Among other things said when the decision was announced, it was suggested by MOST of the board I take every opportunity to work out with another sensei, who just happened to be on the board. Indeed, he's a good martial artist. But, this is not the first time something like that happened.

Previous to me, my instructor had another person test. She, too, did not get the full rank of Shodan. All the information they could offer for her not passing was a minor issue with the stances. Shortly after this test, scuttlebut was the student didn't pass because the board, or certain members thereof, had issues with our instructor. I asked around, and turns out there's been issues for a while, over what, no one will say.

Post my test, almost a year afterwords, five members of our school, including my head instructor, tested for their next ranks. One passed, mainly because he tore his ACL whilst improperly taking his opponent down, and yet refused to stop testing until it was threatened that an ambulance was to be called. Another instructor, who is an absolutely amazing martial artist, had his ribs cracked whilst doing Sanchin. Usually, they test you by hitting certain points with a bit of force. here, apparently, it was kosher for one of the board members to squat kick him in his ribs, up close to his armpit. He made the probabtionary rank, with the understanding that a retest was in order.

Several of the many people tested received ranks which almost no one thought they had earned, except through "time spent." Most of those recepients of rank just happened to be associated in some way with certain board members who apparently have some clout.

Anyway, currently, things are kind of changing around the dojo, and it looks to be because of "political pressure" put upon us.
Still, I can only get hints as to what stuff is actually going on.

Anyway, I have to be exceptionally vague, as I honestly have little clue as to what's going on. But, suffice it to say, the body politic is asserting pressure, said pressure is causing changes which I view as contrary to my growth as a martial artist. Of course, I will have to talk at length with my instructor after I have resumed training, because he is the only one who really has the facts, as opposed to the often-mutated word of mouth.

Anyway, the frustrated ramblings of a dude wishing to train.

peace

[Ray Pina]

That is one of the problems when you train in a style that is so well organized and associated: dues, fees, test fees, and rankings.

Even worse than being denied a rank is how some of these guys rank themselves like 7, 8 or 9 dan.

I've experienced politics pretty much my entire MA career but have to admit I've always been sort of a teacher's pet when it comes to MA.... it means a lot to me and I highly respect whoever I train with. I know when I fail and try hard to correct it so the teachers never come down to hard on me.

With that said, I hate the belt ranking system. I've even come to dislike the Senior/Junior Chinese system.

No matter the system, there will always be guys who have studied long but fall short .... these are also the guys that seem to be the most willing to teach newer students.

I like the, "put on the gloves and lets see if you can beat me" system. That one rarely fails and removes all politics.

[shaolinboxer]

Rank is useful but has it's limits. There seem to be two ways to rank people: the postive and negative. In the positive model, you really have acheived your rank before the test beings. It is the effort and dedication, along with some fair understanding of the skills, that gains you rank. The test becomes a personal affair taking place in a the public view.

The negative model is concerns gaining approval from your seniors in some very specific way. The test becomes so vitally important...as if all of your dedication and time comes down to the ONE moment. They are usually grueling, frustrating, outwardly directed, and impossible to know by what criteria you will be judged.

Ultimately I have come to believe that testing is an internal affair. Passing or failing over foot position is just silly. If you worked hard, can do some fairly clear version of the requirements, then you should be allowed to move forward. The problem comes when too much importance is assigned to rank. It is what it is.

[Merryprankster]

I like the, "put on the gloves and lets see if you can beat me" system. That one rarely fails and removes all politics.

Strangely enough, when this is linked to your belt rank, those belts become valuable symbols to the wearer and the people who know what it means.

[rogue]

except through "time spent." That's happened to me at my formal school. I know the kata, I've been taking private lessons from sensei who really know their **** so I can understand things better, but I can't advance because of "poor attendence". Oh did I mention that I'm asked to help those with "good attendence"? Or that I can either hold my own or beat most of the black belts? Belts mostly are meaningless except for arts like BJJ and Judo which have it right.

[Ray Pina]

I was just going to reply to MP that BJJ has done it right. A purple belt there means more to me that a black belt at most places.

[Vash]

Indeed.

Me, I couldn't care less about my rank. I didn't start karate because I wanted to wear faux-Japanese uniforms, funky, colored belts that won't hold up my spiffy cargo pants, and be able to say I'm the bestest. I started to defend myself, plain and simple. The school I'm at was recommended to me by my old instructor, who is one of the baddest peeps ever, if the current standard is any indication. Would still be under him, if he hadn't gotten two hip replacements.

I just want to do some good old OMA. I don't want to deal with a whole lot of ego. But, I guess that's just something I'm going to have to talk to my instructor about. I have no desire to be a part of any organization of that nature.

[Judge Pen]

You have touched on a topic that I have very strong feelings about, Vash. The political monster that I am most familiar with, however, is one between schools under the same style or system and not so much within the individual schools that I have attended. Rivalries among teachers of the same art can be fun and productive if they are good natured and intended to push the students of the respective schools, but I've seen them get ugly and counter-productive and that's never a good thing.

[MasterKiller]

JP,
Why don't you do some inter-school whoopin on whomever printed these gis backwards:

http://www.shaolinnm.com/images/srmstrfest1.jpg

The first character from the left is "Lin" or "forest". The second is "Xiao (Shao)" or "Small." Should be the other way around.

[red5angel]

That's why I think a lot of people sort of grow out of ranking and belt systems. As we get older we realise these sorts of things hold less meaning then they used to and that they carry too much weight with some people.

[Vash]

Originally posted by red5angel
That's why I think a lot of people sort of grow out of ranking and belt systems. As we get older we realise these sorts of things hold less meaning then they used to and that they carry too much weight with some people.

That's true. I wish it were that simple in this situation, however. It doesn't seem to be about rank, at least not from what I can pick up. It seems to center around personal distaste, as well as how certain sets (kata) are taught (WTF?!).

This is a strange situation. All else fails, and I hope it doesn't, I can still work on stuff outside of the "official" community. I have ample room outside to build a nice little open air gym. I'm also close to a good friend in the system with whom I'm pretty sure I could still work out.

[CaptinPickAxe]

I've been through politics in the Kwoon. I removed myself from the situation.

I found that when you find Sifus who teach to a small circle of students there is less politics than bigger classes. Usually, the only politics is the sifu's fondness of his formal student, which is understandable.

I don't dig the whole belt gig. I think you should be measured by the amount of time you've spent at the school and how you've progressed. Not the color of a belt or how much ass you kiss.

[red5angel]

what really sucks is that some really skilled people and sometimes some really good arts, get so swamped with this stuff that it just becomes less worth it.
At the center of course is usually the one thing that kills martial arts more then anything else, Ego.

[rogue]

quote:
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I like the, "put on the gloves and lets see if you can beat me" system. That one rarely fails and removes all politics.
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Strangely enough, when this is linked to your belt rank, those belts become valuable symbols to the wearer and the people who know what it means. I agree but I've been to karate/TKD schools where it was unthinkable for a lower rank to defeat a black belt in free sparring. There has to some degree of security in peoples ability in the school.

[Vash]

Well, helped wrangle the two kid's classes tonight. Sensei worked 'em over good. Nothing but rolls, takedowns, and grappling, Isshinryu style. Good stuff.

Didn't have the heart to stick around for the adult class. But, haven't in over a year, so no change there.

[red5angel]

I agree but I've been to karate/TKD schools where it was unthinkable for a lower rank to defeat a black belt in free sparring. There has to some degree of security in peoples ability in the school.


I've seen this too. In CMA schools it usually equates to the top gys not bothering to do anything with you for the most part because you "don't have enough skill". In general I take it to mean they are afraid you might get in a lucky shot or two and make them look bad.
I know of one instrcutor who took a shot from a student, and held it against her for quite a while. The attitude was ridiculous and completely immature in my book, a total bow to ego.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

If you want to experience the worst case of political manipulation.. join a Wah Lum school.. the rest is elementary school antics in comparison..

Be well..

[brothernumber9]

There are too many styles to count that have teachers, students, lineages embroiled in political manipulation. Not to mention chinese martial arts organizations. It's hard to find any chinese martial arts style that doesn't have such things happening somewhere in thier universe. I'm sorry to hear Wah Lum has such problems, I respect Sifu Chan Pui very much, eventhough he berated my driving in San Francisco.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by red5angel



I've seen this too. In CMA schools it usually equates to the top gys not bothering to do anything with you for the most part because you "don't have enough skill". In general I take it to mean they are afraid you might get in a lucky shot or two and make them look bad.
I know of one instrcutor who took a shot from a student, and held it against her for quite a while. The attitude was ridiculous and completely immature in my book, a total bow to ego.

That's why I always make an effort to cross hands with as many lower rank students as I get the opportunity. And they will get a luck shot in from time to time and that can only make you better because sometimes their fighting is more uncontroled and unpredictable. How can that not make you better?

Sorry to hear about the Wah Lum politiko. That's the only other CMA school in my area.

[MasterKiller]

Yeah, I had my nose busted by a beginner 6 months ago. Actually, his fingernail cut the inside of my nostril, but it bled to high heaven and looked worse than it was.

A couple of weeks ago, I got submitted by a 16-year-old.

Keeps things in perspective.

[SanSoo Student]

The Right Perspective: there will always be people better than you, and sometiems people get lucky. My main problem when sparring against new people is that their wild blows usually come full force. Getting hit by one of those knocks some sense into me.

[Vash]

That's true. I'm glad my instructor has kept it "real" by constantly fighting with all ranks, high and low. So do all the ranks; constant mixed fighting.

Them beginners sometimes get some lucky shots in, but generally speaking, the higher ranks show superior skill and control.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Vash

Them beginners sometimes get some lucky shots in, but generally speaking, the higher ranks show superior skill and control.

That's been true in pretty much all of my M.A. experience.

[red5angel]

Them beginners sometimes get some lucky shots in, but generally speaking, the higher ranks show superior skill and control.


absolutely but you can't win them all the time. Sensible martial artists know this. The ones with large egos also know this and that is why they do not touch hands with beginners, to maintain that untouchable appearance.

[Judge Pen]

Everytime I hit my teacher when we are sparring, I know that I got partially lucky and that its partially his instruction making me better. I also know that I'm going to get hit more than he is and I'm probably not going to hit him with the same technique more than once. We spar each other once a week for 30 to 45 minutes at a time and its always a learning experience for both of us.