Iron crotch qwery

[WinterPalm]

I have started on an iron crotch regimen that involves squeezing my tesates until I feel too sick to my stomach toi continue. Although in the short time that I have been doing it, I have noticed gains. However I have become worried over the prospect of sterility resulting from my training. does anyone on here have enough experience in Iron crotch training to assess the risk? Am I in danger or not?

[Vash]

Dang, I usually have to pay people to squeeze my balls. I don't have the heart to do it myself.

Seriously though, if you're into that kind of thing, I wouldn't worry about kids.

;) :D :eek:

Why, exactly, are you training this?

[fa_jing]

What kind of gains?

[shaolin kungfu]

I'd say your at a high risk of squeezing the nards too hard. There's no way that can be good.

[FooFighter]

This is probably the funniest post I have read that made me sincerely laughing out of my chair. I understand and have heard stories of iron shirts and iron etc gung fu. I am curious why would you want to develop iron pen-is gung fu? In the past while working for New York Sports Clubs, I had an African American friend. He was a yellow fevered, a werid pseudo-mystic, closeted pervert who told me his reason for iron pen-is gung fu was not for self defense. It it was for sensual performance and he always wanted to break a coconut with this love stick to impress the ladies. That in itself would be a cool party trick I would guess. <wink> Heck, I told him if he could break a coconut with his love stick I would be his todai (student). I wont hold my breathe for this one.

[blooming lotus]

your right..sounds dodgey, but i think the idea is to detatch from the pain...as opposed to squeeze em til you cry ????

[CaptinPickAxe]

I would never desicrate my sacred pole of lovin' by squeezing or it's two roommates or hanging stuff from it. I respect it way too much...

That and it feels like a thousand angry marmots in the pit of my stomach when something bad happens to the Temple of Schlong. Not before I have the manditory "Oh, Sh!t!" 5 seconds.

[GeneChing]

Get your Iron Crotch here! (http://store.martialartsmart.net/prjt001.html)

Now, I've worked on GM Tu's story, in fact, I published the breaking coconuts concept in my first story on Iron Crotch (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=315). I thought that was an outrageous statement from GM Tu, so I had to keep it in the story. Nice to know the idea appealed to a yellow-fevered mind. :rolleyes:

I also worked on translating his video, and in no place does he discuss squeezing your testicle until you feel sick. You do perform some squeezing and slapping, but it's all very light and it moves progressively. If you experience extremem pain, you got to back off. The bottom line is back off, don't whack off.*

*sorry, couldn't resist that one.

[David Jamieson]

what exactly happened at exotic erotic Gene? :p

wp-

you should probably start with muscular retraction. slowly and gradually is the key.

as G has stated, there is light squeezing and some concussive work, but it is very light and very gradual.

retraction and weight suspension is the main attraction and retraction while weights are attached as well.

I would take genes ad, and get a copy of Master Tu's tape. He is the Masta of da dragon bone afta all.

If you damage yer nads with to much pressure and concussion, you run teh risk of testicular cancer. follow a known program such as Tu's. I can't think of one currently outside of golden egg that is available. And even then, golden egg can only be seen as a demonstration and there is no method given except for a superficial passover of it.

and uh... best of luck with it. My personal spin is if you feel you are going to be in a combative situation, wear a cup. :D

cheers

[WinterPalm]

Well, that post was made by a friend of mine, I have no idea to perform iron crotch or tai chi on skis or whatever. I don't know what sort of gains he's noticed but he does want to continue. He want's to know if this can make one sterile?

[WinterPalm]

The gains I have noticed are that I can sustain pressure longer before the pain becomes too excrutiating to continue. And though some of you have mentioned the proper Iron crotch method, I am looking specifically to find wether my current method might cause me to be sterile. And to those confused by my original post, this consists entirely of squeezing my testicles, nothing else. Any help would be appreciated.

[rubthebuddha]

careful, delibandit, i'm thiiiiiiis <> close to banning you for making sense and suggesting someone get proper, trained advice. ;)

[stubbs]

just wear a cup!

how did you learn about iron crotch...its not something you learnt in classs is it? :confused:
________
Daihatsu Sirion (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Daihatsu_Sirion)

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by delibandit
Dude,

Ask your doctor. I don't think you want any of us Kung Fools on this forum giving you advice on sterility as related to squeezing your testicles. That's for your doctor to advise on. Don't be embarassed to discuss it with him or her. Probably a him though, right? (: Just think how embarassed you'll be if you screw up your nads based on some advice given to to you by a stranger on a Kung Fu web forum. Go see your doctor!

It's unlikely a doctor will have any knowlege of iron crotch or it's risks and harm minimalisation there-of...do some searches and find an experienced practitioner.....

ps...slapping and squeezing???...anyone for a training partner.....

just kidding...not a chance

[rubthebuddha]

but a doctor is likely to have insight to what basic pressure against the genitals will cause -- particularly the more contact-based stuff. his or her ignorance of the benefits of iron crotch will probably be outweighed by his or her common sense regarding potential damage to very fragile naughty bits.

[blooming lotus]

:rolleyes:

different ball game dude

[shaolin kungfu]

So, BL, your saying that a doctor would not have enough knowledge of the human reproductive system to make a call on whether or not squeezin your balls is bad?

Edit: and did you mean to make a pun with your last post?

[dwid]

but a doctor is likely to have insight to what basic pressure against the genitals will cause -- particularly the more contact-based stuff. his or her ignorance of the benefits of iron crotch will probably be outweighed by his or her common sense regarding potential damage to very fragile naughty bits.

Exactly. Don't just talk to a doctor. Talk to a urologist. This is not stuff to be idly messing around with. Your genitourinary system is extremely fragile in some respects, and very difficult to repair when it is damaged.

Take it from someone who knows. I was in a minor bicycle accident when I was 15 that resulted in me coming off the seat and landing on the main bar on the frame of the bike. It crushed my urethra right at the center of the bottom of my torso (basically where it is least protected) it took ten years, multiple surgeries, and two full reconstructions of that section of urethra to resolve the problems resulting from that accident.

[rubthebuddha]

different ball game dude this would have been funny if it was intentional.

how is going to a doctor, particularly one who specializes in genital health, a bad idea? because the perspectives the doctor may have may run counter to iron crotch traditions?

consider the whole point in going to a doctor for such purposes -- to talk to a trained expert who knows the ins and outs of a specific portion of the body and can tell you exactly what certain activities will do.

how many people out there do you think can actually teach good iron crotch and do it in a way that each student is at very low risk for injury? how do you know if you've found the right teacher? how can we know if this teacher hasn't left behind a line of students, both those with good abilities and those with damaged goods? how can a person be certain that the training isn't doing long-term damage, particularly in a training that is so counterintuitive as squeezing your genitals to the point of discomfort or pain?

that's my logic. here's my opinion ...

why would a person spend several hours per week conditioning such a specific and rather easily defended part of the body rather than spend the time training martial skills so they don't get hit in the groin, or anywhere else?

a day only has 24 hours. should i spend what little free time i have conditioning a part of my body for impact, or should i spend that time working on low blocks so i don't get hit there, or anywhere else on my lower torso, in the first place and use sparring and drilling as my way of getting used to contact.

different ball game? genitals are genitals. regardless if you follow one perspective or another, they're still genitals, and nature has hardwired in some incredibly obvious hints that taking contact in this region is a very, very bad idea.

[GeneChing]

Generally speaking, it's been my experience that doctors advise against any kind of iron training, crotch, hand, forearm, you name it. From a medical standpoint, it wouldn't be wise for any practicing doctor to recommend these proceedures. And in general, I wouldn't take advise from the forum. You have no idea who many of our forum members are. Why would you attribute any authority to them?

[blooming lotus]

exactly...thk you........

iron skills fall into a diffenrent category of training, and if you want to learn, see an already competant practioner....

Buhdd....sure...If your time is limited..as all of ours is......train in earnest and incorperate breathing techs...then, no doubt if you needed to take impact, you should be able to take it easily...like my little gut that I worked crazily without neccessarily Ironskill in mind, yet absorbs such crazy blows ..................

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
iron skills fall into a diffenrent category of training, and if you want to learn, see an already competant practioner....
The category of high risk to a life-changing organ? I'd do iron anything else, just not iron nuts. BL, as a girl you probably don't quite understand the pain of ball damage. It's like me trying to understand childbirth. It's not something you should **** with. Imagine making yourself a eunuch - how stupid would you feel for the rest of your life? :eek: :eek:

[rubthebuddha]

bl -- you're definitely right in that you have to seek an experienced practitioner. however, the fragility of human genitalia really doesn't leave room for being pretty sure. honestly, dealing with something as intricate yet ill-equipped to deal with contact as genitals, i can't say i'd ever be certain enough to even think about training them for impact under another person, regardless of his claimed level of expertise. i won't deny someone said expertise, but i can think of many reasons both personal and practical as to why i wouldn't give even think about training something like iron crotch. pardon my abruptness, but this to me makes about as much sense for a guy as going through iron clit training does for a girl.

[blooming lotus]

Toby,
I understand both physical and emtional interacies associated with your package .........

I'm not trying to convince anyone to take up Iron anything but if I had a good reason for training an iron clit, I 'd do it....actually, I think I read something about that not long ago.........If was going to do it though, be sure that It's not a doctor I'd go to for advice about it

[inic]

I dont understand the purpose of this. the genitals are purely for reproduction and produce testorerone. If your really serious, you can cut off the testicles and add 20 years to your life. I remember reading that somewhere. :)

But as where the pen1s is concerned, theres not need for any training on it since its only a reproducting organ and only has the one purpose.

[blooming lotus]

in that case, you could also say that since the only purpose of our musculature is to house our organs, you shouldn't train those either because no matter what they're still doing their job....I understand , but it's a silly point

[inic]

I thought it was the bones that house our organs.
and how is it a silly point? maybe technically the pen1s is a muscle, but no other muscle's purpose is just reproduction.

[blooming lotus]

ok...paying the point...........because pleasure ...as you have all made clear so many times, is not a purpose of gentalia

and if you're wondering if I'm calling you a bunch of hussies....I'd do no such thing ;)

oh and the bones house the organs, the muscles house, protect and support the bones.....

[CaptinPickAxe]

I'm sorry. Women know nothing of the pain associated with "Nut Trama". You can only guess. Like Toby said, we will never know the pain of child birth...I don't try to and I'll be straight up with you...I cannot relate. Just the same way you can't relate with testicular pain.

Okay, check this:
Would you belive me if I told you that child birth was about as painful as pulling out your fingernail? of course not, I've never been through birth. Why should I belive you when you try and tell me about my nuts?

[blooming lotus]

lol..point taken ;)

[David Jamieson]

uh, the pen.is is NOT a muscle.

there are small muscles around it, but "it" in and of itself is not a muscle.

secondary to this, as martial arts enthusiasts, it really behooves you to look at an anatomy and physiology book once and a while you know.

This way you can avoid a lot of egrigious advice that comes from martial artists who would give you the wrong advice for some reason or another.

anyway, point taken?

cheers

[blooming lotus]

I hope you weren't addressng that to me....I have several and consult them regularly...

[Vash]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
uh, the pen.is is NOT a muscle.

there are small muscles around it, but "it" in and of itself is not a muscle.
cheers


Originally posted by blooming lotus
I hope you weren't addressng that to me....I have several and consult them regularly...

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[rubthebuddha]

kl points out the blatantly obvious and is still misunderstood. sigh.


Main Entry: 1mus·cle
Pronunciation: 'm&-s&l
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin musculus, from diminutive of mus mouse -- more at MOUSE
1 a : a body tissue consisting of long cells that contract when stimulated and produce motion b : an organ that is essentially a mass of muscle tissue attached at either end to a fixed point and that by contracting moves or checks the movement of a body part
thank you, merriam-webster.

note -- not house, protect, or anything else. muscle is not hard enough to protect in any way other than offer a modicum of cushion, which fat is better at anway. muscle reacts on signals from the nervous system to contract and, due to its connection via tendon to the bones, levers the bones into movement.

so much for A&P. :mad:

[blooming lotus]

did I not say to support the skeletal system??.....what ever ...

[CaptinPickAxe]

*sigh*:( :mad:

[blooming lotus]

ditto :rolleyes:

[rubthebuddha]

oh and the bones house the organs, the muscles house, protect and support the bones muscles don't support the bones -- they lever them, for movement and balance's sake. muscles are nothing more than bands of fiber that can contract and relax, either on a whim or subconsciously, to pull bones in certain directions. they don't house them either -- just ask your shin, forearm, pelvis, collarbone and skull. as for protecting, a few organs enjoy some cushioning that the rectus abdominus, pectoralis major and latissimus dorsi can offer, but the more immediately life-threatening parts of the body -- think just above your collarbone -- are provided almost no muscular protection.

if i'm wrong, feel free to prove me. i've learned a lot via this forum, and i'm not opposed to more. feel free to dig in one of those many oft-consulted A&P books and give us something that runs contrary to what we're saying. but remember, "it's around here somewhere, i'll find it and post it later" or "the internet here in *china* really sucks" are little more than excuses. if you're going to assert something, either offer logic of your own or research from someone else to back it up.

[David Jamieson]

nope, not directed at you bl :D

just a general observation

cheers

[blooming lotus]

k....:cool: :o defenciveness...lil testy lately :eek: :D

buhd.....bullsheet!!...without our muscles what would hold our bones up ( Ie: support) :rolleyes:

they alsoprovide protection...for example iron body in relation to prtecting otherwise extremely vulnerable organs in your abdomin

Ps...on providing proof ...If I say my name is such and such...what?...do you wanna see a birth certficate???

Ie: "hello , my name is......" " are you sure...can provide me proof that???"

...and what if said the sky was blue...I suppose you would want to know where I got my information right???

gimme a break....resources seriously are a hair-pullingly frustratingly experoience here...especially when you're studying fo a phd...then , you share some learned information and everyone wants individual accounts and witness testimony???

trust me...the sky REALLY is blue :eek:

[Toby]

Well, when it comes to you, most people require proof. See, like in "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" you've proven your stupidity repeatedly so people are less inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt. Everything you get you brought on yourself.

As to the rest of your arguments - gahh, I can't be bothered. Everyone else is on reality's side and trying to educate you is a waste of time.

[CaptinPickAxe]

buhd.....bullsheet!!...without our muscles what would hold our bones up ( Ie: support)

The bones hold themselves up. If your refering to aged corpes with colapsed rib cages its because the cartilidge has deteriorated. Muscles are for movement, they don't support the skeletal structure as cartilidge does. If I'm wrong, prove it with a reference to a part of the body that cannot support itself w/o muscles and I'll apologize and add it to your credibilty.

untill then, I'm callin' "Bullsheet" (I think how you put it) on your part.;)

[rubthebuddha]

Ps...on providing proof ... If I say my name is such and such...what?...do you wanna see a birth certficate???

your name isn't an assertion of relevance to this forum. my name is david, but twenty bucks says that 99.9 percent of forum members wouldn't give two ****s about what my name is. talking about physiology, body mechanics, nutrition, health, etc. are of relevance to this forum, so when you say something like "muscles house the organs," we'll call you on it.

the reason we're all asking for proof -- you regularly post information that is either inconsistent or contrary to prevailing scientific thought. i'm grouping TCM as traditional or folk knowledge, as much of it is lacking in proper scientific basis (once tested and proven, i'll retract this).

if you cannot offer scientific evidence, use logic to back up your assertions. to use your example and apply it to logic, something as simple as "'zaphod beeblebrox' is the name on my birth certificate and driver's license, so therefore, it must be my name."

it's that simple. if you want people to believe what you are saying, use either scientific evidence or logic. your recent comment about the lesser organs (not heart or brain, or bits in the throat) being behind the rectus abdominus is a good example of this logic -- we know where the rectus abdominus is, and where other items like liver, gall bladder, etc. are. since the rectus is in front, it's a natural barrier. point made.

the difficult part is that most of your posts contain little of this. if you doubt this, please reflect on how how many people are taking exception to your posts.

if ford or fatherdog, two forum members with some of the most extensive knowledge bases in human physiology of our membership base, start stating that biceps are the primary muscles used in a bench press or that a hunched (opposite of arched) back is best for form when performing a goodmorning, we'll either ...
1. ask them if their significant others slipped something into their brownies, or
2. call bull****,
for the simple reason that such ideas run contrary to prevailing scientific thought.

now, in the name of scientific progress, if ford or fatherdog can prove either scientifically or logically that the biceps are, in fact, the primary mover on a bench press, then we'll concede the point.



and for the record, the sky is not blue -- it merely reflects blue light throughout the atphosphere more than any other color.


The blue color of the sky is due to Rayleigh scattering. As light moves through the atmosphere, most of the longer wavelengths pass straight through. Little of the red, orange and yellow light is affected by the air. However, much of the shorter wavelength light is absorbed by the gas molecules. The absorbed blue light is then radiated in different directions. It gets scattered all around the sky. Whichever direction you look, some of this scattered blue light reaches you. Since you see the blue light from everywhere overhead, the sky looks blue. taken from http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/sky_blue.html

[blooming lotus]

you are absloutely kidding me arguing with me on this.......ffsake :rolleyes:

later

[Toby]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
and for the record, the sky is not blue ROFLMAO!

Poor BL! You can't win. Although, in your twisted mind, you always do win. Despite the written records to the contrary that the rest of us can always go back to for a laugh. Oh, to be so blissfully ignorant!

[blooming lotus]

you mean "oh thank god to being blissfully ignorant"

whatever...I have nothing else to say......



Ps...now watch all the 3 yrs with no life come running for the troll.......mine...no...mine...got it :D :D

:rolleyes:

[scotty1]

Still no logical arguments to RTB's points BL.

*looks at watch*

[cerebus]

Heh, heh! Keep waiting...just don't hold your breath! :D (Kinda like waiting for "The Great Pumpkin"!:D ).

[rubthebuddha]

actually, waiting for the great pumpkin was kinda fun, cause you got to see snoopy wreck mad shop before getting shot down. that **** was sweet.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus

Ps...on providing proof ...If I say my name is such and such...what?...do you wanna see a birth certficate???

Ie: "hello , my name is......" " are you sure...can provide me proof that???"

you are a phd student with a genius IQ... you know what would be considered as verifiable proof...

gimme a break....resources seriously are a hair-pullingly frustratingly experoience here...especially when you're studying fo a phd...then , you share some learned information and everyone wants individual accounts and witness testimony???

trust me...the sky REALLY is blue :eek:


1. you have internet access - if you can get online to check kfm, why can't you get online to research?

2. you have the resources required to study for your phd, but in all of "china" you can't find one person/website, etc. to substantiate your claim that the founder of wing chun also founded dim mak? I use this one specifically because YOU ARE IN "CHINA", visiting the temples!!! you have resources all around you...

[CaptinPickAxe]

you are absloutely kidding me arguing with me on this.......ffsake

And that must be your proof, right? I'm sorry but that proves nothing. C'mon quit dodging the questions and provide some proof.

I'll give to you, you got this trolling thing down packed (Granted I troll pretty much everywhere else except the ORA), but you put me to shame.

[blooming lotus]

dude....I am no troll.....and 7 you don't understand...I don;'t have 1/2 the access you think...government control of power and access to various search engines etc ( not to mention budget factor in schools and internet cafes nation wide) is serious drama........I can't study ...and to be honest, If it wasn't for meditation and detatchment , right now ...I'd be pretty pis*ed off!!...

I don't know where buhdd gets off saying that muscles don't hold your bones up....it's what I've always known to be true since my first academic study way back ( like over 12 ...maybe 15 yrs ago)...which is probably why i haven't gone to lengths to provide links...to me it's as clear as the sky being blue...and I havbe no freakin idea why none of you get that :eek: :confused: :confused:

[rubthebuddha]

i state why i think the sky isn't blue, then i provide a simple quote and a simple-yet-scientific link supporting my assertion that the sky is not technically blue, yet you say you don't know why i say it? you are provided with both quote and source, each of which is open for review and scrutiny, yet you don't even bother to read them. instead, you simply say you don't know why i'd claim the sky wasn't blue.

if a genius-level mind cannot understand the enormous flaw of comprehension the above paragraph illustrates, yet the neanderthal-level brutes that apparently populate this forum understand it just dandy, then you should probably just leave us to trying to start fire with rocks while grog over there in the corner (ironfist) tries to astound us by showing us why a square wheel simply isn't effective.

we've explained several times what muscles do. they flex to control motion -- by tensing one muscle, it manipulates a lever (a bone). by flexing your bicep, it pulls your forearm closer to your upper arm -- motion. by flexing your calf, you are pullng your heel closer to your calf and, thus, creating motion. muscles will, in concert with each other, create much greater motions like running, swimming, slam dunking a basketball (or so i've heard :( ). each muscle controls its own movement. together, they can maintain an upright posture, but that is because each muscle is firing a little bit (or a lot, if you're falling over) to move a lever and adjust body weight and positioning. if you want to refer to this as support, fine, but i'd challenge you to really think about the fact that muscles merely control bones to provide a certain amount of leverage for locomotion, balance, etc.

no human body is static unless it's fully at rest -- the closest we get to this while alive is lying down. if you're walking, a myriad of environmental influences (wind, muddy soil, obstacles, tight pants, carrying laundry, etc.) constantly require us to adjust our balance, which means that muscles are regularly firing and relaxing in order to keep us going. the motions are small, but that's all they are -- simple motions.

[Tainan Mantis]

To my knowlede of Chinese trianing terms there is no such thing.

There are two methods of training for taking hits to the groin.

The easier is performed in the "nei ba zi" or inner figure 8 stance.
Like a pidgeon toe stance.

The legs are close together especially at the thigh so that a foot can not make a solid strike to the groin.

The training method includes getting kicked between the legs, which looks painful, but since no contact is made with the organ, is not so painful.

The second and much more difficult method is to train some muscles in the groin to retract the testes.
This usually takes about 3 years of constant training and is often started when young.

There is no slapping, squeezing or other unholy method of self abuse involved.

[blooming lotus]

cummon.we've already seen kfm articles regarding iron - crotch , but here, mr.knowledgable is gonna tell us it doesn't exist.......how tired of having bs arguments lacking meaty information!!!!!!

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
cummon.we've already seen kfm articles regarding iron - crotch , but here, mr.knowledgable is gonna tell us it doesn't exist.......how tired of having bs arguments lacking meaty information!!!!!! Oh, the irony!

"mr.knowledgable", AFAIK, is born and bred Taiwanese. He seems to be speaking from personal experience as a Taiwanese. That's your most common recent justification for your arguments: "Oh, but most Chinese locals here do/say it, so I'm right". <edit>BTW, at least he's speaking from experience. You're (in other threads) speaking from locals' experience, but can't produce any firsthand to verify your stories.</edit>

We've also seen kfm articles like the one discussed in the recent "Jason Putnam" thread. If it's in kfm it must be true? Gene as much as admitted it's false.

[CaptinPickAxe]

I trust Tainan Mantis worlds more than I trust BL. He's proven to be an intellegent poster and doesn't spew crap like BL.

[blooming lotus]

fine....Iron crotch is another Bls' fantasies like the benifit of meditation and qi..................getting tired boys

[Tainan Mantis]

Blooming,
It is possible that there is such a term called Iron Crotch, or iron something.

Would you please tell me the Chinese word for it and I will see what I can find?
Also, the testacle is very soft and tender, can you, or anyone else here explain what the testicle would have to undergo as far as training is concerned to be able to withstand a kick that can move a solid heavy bag?

From the perspective of human physiology it seems difficult to find a scientific answer.

Toby,
I am American, came to Taiwan in 1989.
You can see clips of what I look like in mantis section under "quicktime clips" thread.

[blooming lotus]

well...there's noone here to ask but if you serach under hard qigong you should find something to help.........

as far as teste conditioning...I can't really tell you....We;ve all seen examples of it being done and i'm sure there are very definate methods to condtion and test from breathing to physical enduarnce exercises. I am a chick so don't have testes and can't speak exeperientially. i'd hate to give you dodgey advice, but do the search and let us know what you come up with.....In the mean time, if opportuninty arises I'll ask around

[Ming Yue]

Sometimes, BL, you might try reading instead of typing.

:)

[CaptinPickAxe]

no, but my main ***** is this:
Why the Fu(k would I take advice on Iron Crotch (a.k.a. Nuts of Steel) from someone who doesn't have/never had/never will have testicles?

Answer this with question and I'll chi blast yo punk ass.....ARF!ARF!ARF!whats really hood, *****!