Power in punching

[John2004]

Hi there,

I would like to hear how others have developed power in their wing chun punch. do you punch heavy bags, focus mitts etc as part of training?

I am interested because I don't believe my punches are strong enough. When go in on my opponent with chain punches, my punches don't seem to stop him. I can feel my gloves hit his helment/mask hard but he has wacked me a few times while I am in the process of doing this.

[chisauking]

Try it without using gloves or helmets

[Gangsterfist]

Train long extended full motion to develope the short range explosive motion.

Perhaps wing chun isn't all about power, perhaps its about sensory overload, or overwhelming your opponet, or about structure. Power will come with time if you keep up your training.

[anerlich]

chisaoking is being a wisea$$, but he's also correct. What are you expecting your partner's reaction to be if he's wearing a helmet? How big and protective is the helmet?

How does he react to a body shot?

[blooming lotus]

maybe try adding some arm conditioning exercises separtely...like tris and pushups, dips and some upper mid back work...also dont forget to include arm ndwrist stretches in your regime......maybe work your core aswell, because if your striking properly this plays an important part.......works for me anyway...boxed for quite a while, usually as routine, if little else always do total min 50-100 pushups>500...>200 tri dips, stretches when I think of it and go a fewrounds with my bag when I pass it....just lucky it's near th door and before the kitchen :D ;)

[TjD]

the wooden dummy and biu jee are all about how to generate power. use your yiu ma.

while doing the wooden dummy, keep a solid connection to the ground, don't lose your root. use your yiu ma in every motion. this is the best way to develop wing chun power, imho.

[curtis]

Hello and good morning
in my opinion you have to break away from from the traditional mindset of power. Forget the push-ups and strengthening exercises, they are not necessary. Quit trying to create power for the sake of creating power. Speed itself is a type of power. Mass in motion is another. The power of Chung Choie is not from the arms, it's from the body. It is also from the concussion of the strike. The Chung Choie cannot be compared to a haymaker. Control, is the key. What one haymaker will do, will take a number of Chung Choie is to accomplish, the major difference is ,if you miss using power. Your help less, You must remember that Wingchun was designed for smaller person to go against a much larger opponent. Do not look for the 1 punch one kill. You must also remember that there is a greater power source in trapping, if you ground your opponent ,so that he cannot move for the moment that you are striking, he will absorb a greater amount of damage, then he would if he was allowed to just float away. Again shock will damage humans far easier than using blunt force.
In my recommendations I would look at the control factor. Ground him, trapping him, and hit him. You'll be amazed AT the power you have, when you are not trying.to creat POWER.
Sincerely yours. C.A.G.

[blooming lotus]

I agree speed is power but you gotta do something for conditioning........

eg: young guy at some shaolin classes /seminars I did in Brisbane...seriously flexible, very good form compostion and speedy to boot....limp as a wet rag , obviously does nothing else for strength....had to feel sorry for a guy that would otherwise be a respectable threat..........

survey anyone???

[kj]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I agree speed is power but you gotta do something for conditioning........


For me it's largely in Siu Nim Tau, sand bag training, and as TKD mentioned third set and dummy later on.

In the health club, the conditioning exercises are different. The purposes of Wing Chun and the health club, while not mutually exclusive, are also not the same.



eg: young guy at some shaolin classes /seminars I did in Brisbane...seriously flexible, very good form compostion and speedy to boot....limp as a wet rag , obviously does nothing else for strength....had to feel sorry for a guy that would otherwise be a respectable threat..........

Not having felt the guy in question, I don't know anything about his power. The tell-all isn't in whether he is like a wet rag or not. Some "wet rags" can be very capable and dangerous, while others are just wet rags.

FWIW, my Wing Chun does not (in fact, cannot) rely on strength, but instead aims for superior position, sensitivity and responsiveness. I don't need to be the strongest, fastest, or most powerful. I do, however, need to be "substantial" in the right place, in the right way, at the right time.

Anyone who's run into a telephone pole and jolted or banged themselves up can affirm that the telephone pole is not fast or powerful. The power of the telephone pole in that scenario starts with a solid foundation. Just food for thought.


survey anyone???

There are indeed different ways of making a "powerful impact." As regards Wing Chun, my vote's logged here, and cast more importantly in regular training.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[reneritchie]

Most people chain punch fast at the expense of body unity, meaning only the speed and arm weight generate the power. With gloves and a helmet, even if you hit like Victor Belfort, you may not see a realistic response from your training partner.

Instead of speed shots, you might want to try shots that break your opponent's structure, slowing them down and crippling their ability to defend or counter. These types of shots are not as absolutely fast, but become relatively fast due to their effect.

Punch in towards the center mass, drive with your feet solidly planted, your pelvis and shoulders squared and pressing to slam your fist into the target.

[Tom Kagan]

I would like to hear how others have developed power in their wing chun punch.
...


Within the context of the Ving Tsun system, BiuKwan is the way to make your punches more powerful (assuming a practitioner has taken the necessary steps to get to this phase of training).

[Phenix]

Originally posted by John2004
Hi there,

I would like to hear how others have developed power in their wing chun punch. do you punch heavy bags, focus mitts etc as part of training?

I am interested because I don't believe my punches are strong enough. When go in on my opponent with chain punches, my punches don't seem to stop him. I can feel my gloves hit his helment/mask hard but he has wacked me a few times while I am in the process of doing this.


On power in punching:

there are motion acceleration, momentum generation, force path resistance.....all sort of things.


how close can one get the acceleration up to what one needs when one rush in? how deep the power can panetrate? how conditional is the power generation process or unconditional? what is the limiting angle? (ie, if the punch has to be aligned with elbow close to the center line and infront of the body. this is a single vector punch. sure it is strong but if people cut in side way, the intensity of the punch can get neutralized very fast. thus, this is a narrow angle power generation type. as a comparison for the Peng Jing of Taiji, which is a wide angle power generation which can be roundedly distribute.....etc)

questions continous on. A punch is not a Punch until all the pices become a holitic pice.
then a punch is just a punch and it takes years and years.

[PaulH]

A few simple ways to improve your punching power:

1. Build a strong wrist

2. Use the right punch for appropriate situations. Distance will dictate different punch usage. Note when boxers use jab, hooks and uppercuts.

3. Punch with good supporting body behind. Can you feel your leg in your punch?

4. Focus: power, timing, precision, balance, speed in one naked punch is my favorite recipe for a well-served dish. =)

[Gangsterfist]

One Mind - One body is definately a good concept to look into for developing power.

Good advice Paul.

[Nick Forrer]

In wing chun the power comes from the floor

You are connected to the floor through your stance

If your stance is not correct you will not get power from the floor

ergo to get power from the floor your stance must be correct.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
In wing chun the power comes from the floor

You are connected to the floor through your stance

If your stance is not correct you will not get power from the floor

ergo to get power from the floor your stance must be correct.



may be is from the interaction of resultant body weight and the floor.

started with

F = total generated force


F = resultant holistic applicable effective Bodyweight x Acceleration toward ground.



as for how one transfer this F effectively to the impact contact point and

as for how to accelerate without having the limb pulling it or decelerate or constantly dissipate a resultant force keeping it balance...etc. it is about Kung fu :D



when it is about dynamic, stance has to be a dynamic stance too. ...

if one stand a static stance one only got the sustain force or the equilibrium force. that is different from the dynamic generate total force.

sure one can argue standing static still and use the muscle to generate the mascular force...

[blooming lotus]

sure ..no matter intensity , it can be nuetralised by the right technique or angle....I think the key here is to find out what those are and develope strategies to defend against them, be it superior speed, advnced tech, or specific style vs application....I think a good place to start is with the elements and animals of Hsing Yi

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by kj


Anyone who's run into a telephone pole and jolted or banged themselves up can affirm that the telephone pole is not fast or powerful. The power of the telephone pole in that scenario starts with a solid foundation. Just food for thought.


a dense, solid oject with a solid foundation... an object that is harder than any human. The structure of the human is broken way easier.

[kj]

Originally posted by SevenStar


a dense, solid oject with a solid foundation...

Exactly. The rest overshoots the point.

René, Nick and a few others have already offered some insightful tidbits for achieving an effectively (not literally) more dense and solid state with a firm foundation.

I am not suggesting that we should transmogrify into telephone poles. :D

Regards,
- kj

[justabean]

One of the questions was how to develop power.

IMO, I feel that stepping and punching through the focus mitt gives you a good feel for moving/chasing power. I agree that stable low stances ground you and give you some power, but I think that as you're hitting someone, they will be moving back/falling down/etc.

Justabean

[curtis]

Hello
Everyone has their own opinions, of how and why things work the way they do. I'm not attempting to disagree with any of the other posters, but I have an entirely different outlook dealing with power.
Do not think of force, or PSI (pounds per square inch.) You can create. Do not think about it as using muscle, or any of the other traditional ways, when thinking about power.

Power is an art in itself. There are many different types of power. So for now lets just look at the basics.

I've already stated that concussion (shock waves) damages human tissue far more than kinetic force.
It's not how much force you can create,It's how much energy you can use (or transfer into your target that matters.) As well as how you transfer that energy, ( The method that you use.)

Example Chop Choie or Bil Jee, sense the surface of contact is much smaller (fingers or single knuckle) the amount of energy that it is necessary to damage the target is far less than would be , for an example a Chung Choie would be.

A quick jolt can be more devastating than a sledgehammer attack. I'm not questioning the sledgehammer's ability to damage you.
What I am stating it is a smaller more precise and quicker attack can achieve the same and results as a more general kinetic attack would.

You do not want to drive through your opponent, you want to hit, recoil and fire again, using shock, instead of force. Think of it as a machine gun mentality, against a tank. One bullet will not destroy a tank, but many bullets will eventually penetrate even the thickest armor.
It is true there are more ways to create power. But I suggest to first developed your weapon. Once you have your weapons then you can always upgrade them. From 50 caliber to a 20 mm. BUT First you must be able to use what you have! and later.... It's up to you!
Good Luck in your training.
Sincerely yours. C.A.G.

P.S.
This goes hand-in-hand with trapping in general. If you can take the opponent off his base, he cannot generate the energy to hurt you, AND, if he does not have a base he cannot absorb the damage when it is applied to him.
Just keep training.
sincerly.

[Stevo]

Did anyone mention pivoting?

If not...pivoting.

But as taught by my Sifu, the toes must point at the target, ie pivot tightly and not too far.

[blooming lotus]

hmmm...not sure I can 100% agree with that...but I'll consider it more later

[Gangsterfist]

Stevo-

When I train in taiji, we always point our foot towards our opponet when doing forms and tui sao (push hands). It directs your intent and your energy towards your opponet.

In wing chun that is not always the case because your neutral, at least that is how I was taught.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by curtis
I've already stated that concussion (shock waves) damages human tissue far more than kinetic force.
It's not how much force you can create,It's how much energy you can use (or transfer into your target that matters.) As well as how you transfer that energy, ( The method that you use.)



VWHW :D

[Stevo]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Stevo-

When I train in taiji, we always point our foot towards our opponet when doing forms and tui sao (push hands). It directs your intent and your energy towards your opponet.

In wing chun that is not always the case because your neutral, at least that is how I was taught.

Maybe we're talking at cross purposes? I'm talking about mechanics rather than intent.

This is probably hard to describe in words, but I' ll try. What I'm talking about is punching from a stationary position, as opposed to punching with an advancing step. The hip drives the pivot, to put power into the punch. We pivot on the heels too, by the way, so this technique mightn't work if you pivot from the toes or the ball of the foot.

The pivot is simultaneous with (for example) a right punch, so that you end up in what we call the 'right neutral stance', with both feet angled slightly (about 20-25 degrees) and parallel to each other, and the right foot pointing at the centreline of the opponent. That way, your bodyweight ends up being directed in the same direction that your punch is directed. If you pivot too far to the left while executing a right punch, your punch will be weaker, because your bodyweight will end up being directed to the left of the opponent rather than straight at his centreline.

But don't take my word for it. Try it and see what you think.